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Thread: The Snyder Cut
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2021-02-24, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
I suppose it depends on how you define "failure" SM3 and ASM did make money, but those leaked e-mails from Sony, followed by the deal with the House of Mouse for Tom Holland, certainly show that they were upset.
I don't recall ever saying "innocent" - and is BvS, the version of Batman that uses a gun and kills people, really the one you want to be reaching for here?
Punisher isn't a billionaire, and Stark is dealing with cosmic threats rather than patrolling the streets. I'll give you Danny Rand though, he's pretty crap.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-02-24, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
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2021-02-24, 10:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Wait. Is anyone here saying the Punisher is presented as anything but problematic?
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2021-02-24, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2021-02-25, 08:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
He's a heavily damaged individual that uses lethal force to solve problems that are societal at core. He's a Villain or Anti-villain at best when he guest stars in other books. When he's the focus, he almost always is presented as an Anti-hero though.
Judging by all the Punisher skulls with the 'thin blue line' flag plastered on them I've see, yeah, I'd say some folks have missed the point.
Re: Synder Cut. Don't really have a dog in the race, but if it makes some people happy, great. Squeaky wheels tend to get the grease.Don't know your name but bring the pain.
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2021-02-25, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Danny's the only one it's really justified for though. In most stories he doesn't even HAVE his money; his friend, or Namor, or some other rando is in control of the company.
When he does have access, he tries to go a bit bigger picture, like the 90s Heroes for Hire series (though even there IIRC the Human Torch...not that one...is in charge of the company).
Then half the time he's not even in New York anyway. He has K'un L'un **** to deal with, unless it's been invaded or blown up or whatever the hell the writers decide to do with it that month.
It's not like Reed Richards, who could solve the whole world's problems in 10 minutes if he gave half a ****. Danny Rand is just a well meaning guy with a glowy fist and lots of friends.
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2021-02-25, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
The breaking fingers until people talk was certainly brutal, but they were criminal sorts. He was working his way through the underworld. Honestly, that's not all that different from many Batman plots. Beat up henchmen until they lead you to the guy in charge. The framing is different, of course. Batman doesn't focus on the brutality of it all, while Watchman does.
But it's hard to argue that Batman isn't actually brutal, or wouldn't be in any manner of realistic sense. Ultimately, most superheros tend to solve problems with violence, often extreme violence, on a regular basis.
Watchmen is that, just with the camera focusing on the aftermath instead of cutting away.
Now, I don't mind Batman as a character, and enjoyed perhaps 2.5 movies out of the Dark Night trilogy. However, he's definitely on the darker side of things, and the more realistic the take on him, the more the darkness comes into focus.
I don't really mind DC doing that for Batman, but they do seem to do it way too often. Dark edgy superman was an odd choice. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it's usually more alternate universe or a what if, not the mainstream character. The dark and edgy WITH the hero worship becomes just downright odd.
I have trouble with the idea that people idolize Clark as a literal god for acting in a pretty similar way to Bruce, who is mostly condemned as evil by...Gotham, which is pretty rough off.
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2021-02-25, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
First of all, saying it's acceptable or break people finger because "they were criminals" is really disgusting
Second, isn't what people are saying is that Batman is actually not that good of a person seeing his methods? So justifying Rorschach's action by comparing them to Batman only lowers Batman, it does not raise Rorschach
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2021-02-25, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Batman would generally be described as a hero, yes? Walk up to any average person, ask them if Batman is a superhero, and they'll look at you and say "Sir, I guess so, but this is a Wendy's."
The superhero genre is pretty much founded on justifying violence by having "good" people inflict it on criminals.
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2021-02-25, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Cikomyr didn't say Batman wasn't a superhero, just that extreme violence shouldn't be considered acceptable just because the targets are criminals. That goes for Batman just as much as it does for Punisher (who incidentally, I would bet the "average person" would also label a superhero.)
And yes, the superhero genre was indeed founded on a glossing over of the concept of excessive force, but a lot of the genre is slowly moving away from that. Judging by two upcoming film releases that will feature him, Batman isn't - but I view that as a point against his modern big screen portrayals, rather than the genre as a whole.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-02-25, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
I'd disagree we're moving away from it.
Consider, for instance, the Deadpool series. They're overtly advertising Deadpool three as more violent and R rated than the previous two.
Endgame had one of the big Marvel heroes straight execute someone in cold blood. Yeah, he deserved it, but still.
DC is going for, uh, Suicide Squad 2. Not sure that's a good decision, but I'm pretty sure that's gonna be less that perfect virtue on the part of all those shown.
Heck, Kickass vs Hitgirl has been announced, and I thought that franchise was dead in a frenzy of insane violence.
Last but not least, we have The Boys out there pushin' pretty much every limit known to superheros.
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2021-02-25, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
There is a world of difference between knocking someone around in a fight (even if it is a fight person A picked with person B...but it is person BW/BM finishing it with person A) and torture. Winning the fight can reasonably require brutal methods, but once the opponent is no longer a threat (to person BW/BM or person B) then it is a different story. As I'll mention below, I think Batman may benefit from the "power perceived" dogma, to limit some of the actual physical torture.
ASIDE: Dark Edgy Superman (tm) isn't an odd choice. It is a terrible choice in any instance *not* specifically meant to show how lucky the world is that Jonathan and Martha Kent (from not-Man of Steel) were the folks that found little Kal-el instead of almost anyone else anywhere. Being from Krypton gave Kal-El/Clark his super powers. Jonathan and Martha are who made him a superhero.
I think there are at least a couple orders of magnitude difference in extreme between Batman and Frank Castle/Punisher. Specifically, I think that Batman has taken advantage of his iconography and reputation to minimize what he really has to do to get where he needs to get...the whole reason he selected the bat as his "brand" was to strike fear. Combine that fear with years of taking down nameless henchmen and big named bad guys and every would-be tough guy knows deep down they're in for it if they cross him.
Spoiler: This is how all his fights should go...Nigel Powers : Do you know who I am?
Henchman Sailor : [nods]
Nigel Powers : Have you got any idea how many anonymous henchmen I've killed over the years?
Henchman Sailor : [nods again]
Nigel Powers : I mean, look at you. You don't even have a name tag. You've got no chance. Why don't you just fall down?
[henchman falls down]
That saves him from having to torture to get information. It also saves him from having to inflict (or risk receiving) the amount of damage that might be required for The Night Avenger! to stop the Mugger from stealing $1.72 from Innocent Citizen Jane.
The question becomes, though, how much force is excessive? Obviously the situation dictates the answer, as does personal philosophy.
Thug attacks shopkeeper/pedestrian/grandma...any force at all? Enough force to make him run away? To render him incapacitated/restrained? To break him so he can never do it again? To kill him?
Probably easy to get a majority response on the ends, but the three in the middle differentiate the tiers of temporary hero/fulltime heroes/anti-heroes.
Punisher and Rorschach seem to lie on the end...sometimes answer 4 but often 5. Sadly (to me), Wolverine, Punisher, Deadpool and a few others became popular because they were so "edgy" and that seems to persist. Still, superhero books went 50ish years without that, and could probably do so again.
One of those started as a villain, one is a team of villains, and the other two are meant to be "deconstructiony". Deadpool is the Tom and Jerry/Roadrunner version of a comic book, dressed up as a superhero/villain. Thor is a longer discussion that belongs here (too late!). Suicide Squad was a clever idea latched on to because DC wants to be the dark and gritty comic book movie studio, and Kickass and The Boys are all running around screaming "Look at how clever and edgy we are! Look at us look at us look at us!" So, while your examples are all clearly true, I don't think this disprove the spirit of Psyren's comments.
- MLast edited by Mordar; 2021-02-25 at 04:09 PM.
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2021-02-25, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
I think you've hit on the primary problem here, and it's not whether Batman is punching people.
For most of his comics career, Bruce Wayne wasn't even the richest person in Gotham City. He was a local millionaire who owned one home and had one servant, influential enough to show up at the local high society parties and run one of the larger corporations based entirely in a single city, but not rich enough to meaningfully alter national politics or even solve a single major issue alone. He had a ton of gadgets, but we weren't supposed to look too closely at how much money you need to make those, in the same way that we weren't supposed to look too closely at how many gadgets the Fantastic Four had despite not even owning their own offices.
Over time, though, Batman's wealth metastasized. Wayne Industries became Wayne Enterprises. It had branch offices in other towns. Then it had branch offices in other countries. Then Batman was single-handed funding the Justice League's space station and satellite networks, and in direct competition with Lex Luthor for the world's foremost billionaire.
This is the moment when Batman falls apart, because the entire premise of Batman is that he has power to influence the system from within, but not to fix it, so he seeks out ways to fix the system from the outside. If he's one of the most powerful people around, he needs to either win or lose, but he can't do that.
Presumably, this is why they've taken most of Batman's money away in the current comics and removed his control of Wayne Enterprises.If you like my thoughts, you'll love my writing. Visit me at www.mishahandman.com.
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2021-02-25, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Torture certainly is particularly awful. It is, however, used by heroes. Batman's certainly not above threatening people, or even killing them in some instances. He literally branded people in BvS. That's definitely way past the line of torture, and probably worse than a broken finger.
Why, even Spidey, a much warmer, friendlier hero in general, has been depicted as threatening crooks for information. The ol' holding them over an edge, maybe letting them drop a little...
Undoubtably an unheroic act, one justified to the audience by who has been framed as good and bad.
As a deconstruction, Watchman illustrates that.
ASIDE: Dark Edgy Superman (tm) isn't an odd choice. It is a terrible choice in any instance *not* specifically meant to show how lucky the world is that Jonathan and Martha Kent (from not-Man of Steel) were the folks that found little Kal-el instead of almost anyone else anywhere. Being from Krypton gave Kal-El/Clark his super powers. Jonathan and Martha are who made him a superhero.
I think there are at least a couple orders of magnitude difference in extreme between Batman and Frank Castle/Punisher. Specifically, I think that Batman has taken advantage of his iconography and reputation to minimize what he really has to do to get where he needs to get...the whole reason he selected the bat as his "brand" was to strike fear. Combine that fear with years of taking down nameless henchmen and big named bad guys and every would-be tough guy knows deep down they're in for it if they cross him.
But that fear only makes sense if running into Batman is genuinely bad. Would people truly fear him if it was known that he'd take care not to harm you, you'd go in Arkham, and be out before the end of the week?
Probably not. They fear, at a minimum, getting beat up. In some representations, Batman tortures, interrogates or kills. That causes fear, definitely.
Given that we're primarily talking about the DCU here, and the DCU Batman does all of these, it's really hard to say that he's just startling people a bit or something.
And of course, Frank Castle has pretty much nothing but military training, he's no billionare. Same, same for Rorschach. The guy literally needs to borrow a can of beans. Batman has far more options than either of them, and yet he's still beating crooks in alleys.
So, while your examples are all clearly true, I don't think this disprove the spirit of Psyren's comments.
- M
And if we're claiming that modern media doesn't accept good heroes beating criminals, that's difficult to square with a great many of current releases. It apparently is accepted.
Now, I like some of the more cosmic level stuff, when it's done well, but street tier heros punching out criminals is a genre staple regardless of era.
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2021-02-25, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Garth Ennis writes like Garth Ennis. That doesn't indicate much.
Originally Posted by Psyren
Stark deals with Cosmic threats as part of the Avengers, like Batman does with the League. Many of his villains are just criminals with cheap knockoff tech.
I guess what I'm wondering is why this standard applies uniquely to Batman, and not all the other superheroes doing the same thing or worse. Why haven't the multiple native billionaires in the MCU fixed New York yet?
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2021-02-25, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Quibbles here...Frank Castle started with just military training, and then monetized his criminal-killing hobby into a lucrative cash stream that allows for an awful lot of high-tech weaponry and non-shooty equipment (depending, of course, on the version you're watching).
Batman isn't beating crooks in alleys as a way to lash out at society, or killing them to erase the pain of his family being murdered (even though his were...). He's doing it because that is where the crime is, and all of the social investment that he may or may not be doing in the guise of Bruce Wayne isn't going to stop that mugging/rape/murder/robbery that is happening right that second. Calling the police from his Batphone isn't going to stop it either, it'll just increase the chance of the perpetrator being caught. Presenting himself as an alternate target or forcing the attacker to flee/disabling the attacker are the only choices that will stop it. We can easily disagree on which is the right choice there (allow them to flee and potentially continue their behavior or disable them and hope the system rehabilitates them or otherwise eliminates the risk), but I think we're looking at three very different character motivations, intents and methods that happen to share trappings.
True, I don't think I was as clear as I meant to be (plus I might just be wrong). My key assumption/basis is that Batman beating up RandoMook in the commission of a crime is widely accepted, but EdgeHero smashing RandoMook's head in with a lead pipe during his burglary of the jewelry store is only accepted by a niche audience.
The success (and potentially cultural impact) of Watchmen (movie and series), The Boys, Kickass (and any/all potential sequels) and Suicide Squad is dwarfed by that of the Standard Hero Fare (primarily MCU, but also WW etc). It is difficult for me to separate the movies from all of the other property that goes along with them...cartoons, toys, games, etc. The full weight of that impact for me is that the brutal depictions have niche acceptance, the "standard fare" has broad acceptance.
Deadpool is clearly the glaring exception. I recognize that as a significant fly in my ointment and am unsure how to entirely absorb that. I'm mostly holding to the Saturday Morning Cartoon thing in live action. The brutality of the violence in one Tom and Jerry episode, or one Roadrunner episode (note, totally self inflicted via bad intentions), far exceeds that of a standard (non-deconstructy) superhero movie.
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2021-02-25, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Yes. This. Exactly this.
...You do know what a genre deconstruction is, don't you? Because no less than 4 of your 5 examples qualify.
Your fifth, Endgame, first of all is not an example of punching down (It's not really possible to "punch down" at Thanos, any more than it would be to "punch down" at Darkseid or Galactus) - and second, is also a deconstruction, just a different kind. The Big Bad is effortlessly vanquished in the first act, and doing so, even killing him, actually solves nothing, the heroes are still defeated.
Let's use Spiderman Homecoming as an example.
SpoilerSpiderman beats up criminals in that movie. The criminals he's up against have high-tech gadgets and weapons, but they're not out to, say, conquer the city, or foment anarchy by trapping all law enforcement in the sewer, or start wars and destabilize the world, or destroy half of all life in the universe etc. They're just down on their luck and trying to make a buck using criminal means. The villain is even somewhat sympathetic. He and his gang can't be allowed to keep that technology, and certainly can't be allowed to distribute it far and wide, so stopping them is essential, but they aren't going out of their way to murder innocent people.
Almost nobody dies in Spiderman Homecoming. (Vulture kills the Shocker - well, a Shocker - for threatening his wife, but that's it.) Spiderman incapacitates various goons, but they don't show him snapping/dislocating limbs - and if he did, he would almost certainly be horrified by it. Keep in mind that Spiderman is easily strong enough to cripple, maim, and even kill the unpowered people he fights.
Instead, he knocks crooks out and webs them up for the cops. And of course, if an innocent is about to get hurt, like the shopkeeper across the street from the ATM brawl, Spiderman will prioritize going to help that person even if it means the crooks get away.
It's very, very hard for me to imagine the Nolan, Snyder, or this latest Reeves portrayal of Batman doing this. Quite frankly, even the Burton Batman might be a stretch, but definitely not the first three. And it's sad, because I know those more positive takes on the character are out there, but it doesn't seem that any of the films have an interest in exploring them. But it's hard for me to blame them either, because again, the incongruity set up by the character's premise makes that difficult.
And that version of Spiderman is wrong. It's exactly why Andrew Garfield is the worst version I've seen, and why Tom Holland got it so right. (TH isn't perfect - there's still a little too much Iron Spider in there for my tastes - but the heroism and restraint are spot-on.)Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-02-25, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
I'm reminded of that SMBC comic where Superman wonders who to punch.
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2021-02-25, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
You mean this one?
*avoids answering Supes' query*Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-02-26, 05:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
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2021-02-26, 07:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Spidey has webbing, he has no excuse to punch people at all.
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2021-02-26, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-26, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-02-26, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
It's not entirely unique. Reed Richards is Useless is a trope, after all. I think in both his case and Batmans, it's because the gap between capability and results is so great. It isn't hard to believe that Daredevil, for instance, is a capable lawyer and criminal-puncher, but that more crooks are out there. His capabilities are certainly good, but they're not so overwhelming as to threaten one's disbelief when considering a city of that size.
It's harder to justify that a person can greatly affect the whole universe or whatever, but can't fix one city.
If you're looking at a very oldschool Batman, where he's not so rich and connected and perhaps more of a detective, there's not much of a problem, but the DCU Batman has drifted far from that.
That's fair. His weapon budget cannot be that small. That said, he's definitely still in the poorhouse compared to Bruce. Almost everyone is. While we may see Castle casually use thousands of dollars of gear, we routinely see Wayne treating millions or billions as chump change.
Batman isn't beating crooks in alleys as a way to lash out at society, or killing them to erase the pain of his family being murdered (even though his were...).
Deadpool is clearly the glaring exception. I recognize that as a significant fly in my ointment and am unsure how to entirely absorb that. I'm mostly holding to the Saturday Morning Cartoon thing in live action.
I think the Saturday Morning Cartoon thing was an artifact of a certain era, as was the Comics Code, and those are largely past. We see occasional echos of them, but they hold relatively little sway today, and what they have is weakening.
Sure, the ol' tom and jerry cartoons had violence, sort of...but violence without consequence. TNT goes off in the hand, you have some black powder on your face and a shocked look for a second, then everything goes back to normal. I think that's very different from the kind of violence we see in superhero media today.
At a certain point, it's not just deconstruction, it's a genre change, and I think it's reasonable to say that the modern day has kept the violence, but generally shows more of the results of it.
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2021-02-26, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
I love TH Spider-Man, but the one thing that bugs me so much is that his suit has an "instant kill" mode that impales anything in his immediate area with metal spikes.
I mean, I can't really argue he was wrong to use it when he did, but even in a scene where the Falcon is impaling guys with his wings and Ant-Man is stepping on people that still really feels wrong.Last edited by Dire_Flumph; 2021-02-26 at 11:10 AM.
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2021-02-26, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
IANAM, but I didn't see anything overtly problematic about Batocrat. And yes, that's another good summation of the sort of Fridge Logic that's appearing around Batman's premise.
"Food and a room, Robin!"
It's very easy to justify actually; Reed's focus on cosmic problems means he just doesn't have time for street crime. It's like expecting Doctor Strange to patrol the streets, he's got much bigger fish to fry.
What makes it hard to justify in Batman's case, is that he is very clearly expending time and resources on municipal problems. Like, if you have time to beat up crooks in an alley, clearly your time is not occupied with what's happening in space. The problem is that Batman's rogue's gallery is too iconic/marketable to set aside, which also explains Arkham's revolving door.
Well it makes perfect sense when you consider that Tony "No Kill Like Overkill" Stark designed the thing and Peter had no idea it was there. Keep in mind this is the guy who designed fleets of kill-drones for peacekeeping, TWICE, after becoming a superhero.
And yeah, he used it on the Children of Thanos, but that was very clearly a life or death fight.
I don't think his latest suit (the one Peter designed himself near the end of FFH) has it.
Really though, the only purpose behind Stark designing the suits in the first place was so they'd have an in-universe explanation for what the comics have been doing with Spidey since the very beginning - having expressive eyes.Last edited by Psyren; 2021-02-26 at 11:17 AM.
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2021-02-26, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
The Reed Richards is Useless trope is more about how the world remains the same around super-inventors that use one-off inventions to stop a bad guy that could revolutionize the medical, manufacturing, or food production industries. Less about Reed personally saving the world as passing blueprints to assistants to see if the matter re-arranger could maybe feed the 3rd world. The Villainous side is Cut Lex Luthor a Check, where a villain could build a freeze gun that rewrites the laws of thermodynamics and instead of heading to the patent office they rob a bank with it. Thought experiments to mull over how superheroes could change the world in other ways.
Peter certainly knew it was there by Endgame, he activated it rather than the suit doing it on its own. And given the situation, I won't argue it wasn't appropriate force, and I can see Tony putting it in the suit, these guys weren't robbing a convenience store, they had previously wiped out half the universe.
It just bugs me. It's like....seeing the Zack Snyder take on Super-Grover for lack of a better way to phrase it.
And Amen to that. It gets tough to re-watch the first Toby Maguire Spider-Man and have scenes where two people in static masks are throwing dialogue at each other. That movie did a lot of groundwork for what works and what doesn't adapting comics to screen.
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2021-02-26, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
My thought process when bringing up some of the more pointed SMBC comics:
"I could a.) debate with myself over whether this crosses any lines or not and post a link, or 2.) turn my brain off and describe it such that anyone googling could find it immediately and not have to worry about any potential reports."
Option 2 is just way easier.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2021-02-26, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Doesn't the Punisher just steal money from the people he kills to afford his weapons and tech on the black market? He could easily have millions from drug ops, money laundering, etc. That doesn't mean he can spend any of it legitimately.
Which, to my knowledge, isn't that different from how police handle seized money. It goes into their organization to be used in various ways.
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2021-02-26, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Still not a lot of money considering that this is his only source of income, and the cost of self-funding all his operations. Bruce Wayne earns a salary as CEO (or president, or shareholder) of Wayne Enterprises, plus he is Bill Gates level rich in terms of his estate.
Last edited by Clertar; 2021-02-26 at 12:22 PM.
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