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Thread: The Snyder Cut

  1. - Top - End - #691
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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Ohhh, i getcha. Yeah, definitely some bit of planning/hope. Glad it worked out for them, I remember watching Eragon (one of the ones I got paid for, thankfully)
    Wait you used to get paid for watching films? Were you a film critic or something?
    and feeling bad for anyone who liked it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    That said, her career trajectory at this point put her in a high enough position that she's largely getting credit/blame for other people making the products. The Mandalorian is good, but is it her work? Eh, probably not. You can say the same of, the rest of the new Star Wars stuff as well, and hey, we at least have photos of her on the sets of some of those. So somewhat more involvement. But overall, the Star Wars franchise doesn't seem to be running at 100%.
    I agree more or less with the rest you wrote above this, but wanted to bring into it a bit of extra commentary on my part: I believe she is the exact same level of responsible for the sequel trilogy as she is for the Mandalorian.

    Frankly, I don't really care too much about her, but I do dislike when people try to lay the whole thing at her feet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Episode 9 is honestly...trying hard to cope with the last two movies.
    If Abrams has to cope with one of his own movies, I'm hardly going to give any benefits of any doubts. He **** the bed and then had to lay in it, to alter the analogy. Pray I do not alter it any further.
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  3. - Top - End - #693
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    I think Star Wars isn't a great comparison to the MCU in terms of managing a big film series, because SW movies have way, way tighter plot integration between films than the MCU does. Sure there's some holes, particularly in the OT, but the focus is in the same characters fighting the same bad guys towards the same objective.

    The MCU movies are extremely independent by contrast; Title Superhero punches a one-off bad guy for two hours, there's a couple non load-bearing scenes that advance the larger continuity a bit, and at the end we're back at 95% of the original status quo. They kinda feel like they're super interconnected, but it's almost entirely an illusion; it's really trivial to skip movies or watch them out of order, and still follow along just fine. The movies are structurally so similar, its pretty easy to just intuit the background for some hero or villain from a movie you haven't seen.

    I think a lot t of this difference is that the Star Wars (or at least Lucas era Star Wars) movies are inherently about a political situation evolving through time, with personal arcs unfolding inside that. The OT is specifically about destroying the Empire as a ruling body, so it cares at least a little bit about things like how the Empire retains control and is broadly aware that military might as expressed in terms of warships and so on matter to the overall political situation. The PT is about the fall of the Republic, so we need to know something about the Republic's system of government and power within that system. Basically the universe as a whole matters, at least a bit. The universe as a whole pretty much only matters in a Marvel movie as a prop for the hero to demonstrate their current level of empowerment with. Because of this, the background can't meaningfully change, because then it's current state would end up mattering more than what the heroes are feeling at any given time.

    Ultimate example, contrast the end of Infinity War with Revenge of the Sith, and how everything unfolds from there. In both, the heroes have utterly failed, and the bad guys have won. Marvel gets Endgame, where the universe obligingly lets the heroes redo time so they get right back to having succeeded with really not a lot of cost - and not a lot of cost still makes it way more expensive to the heroes than most other MCU movies. For StR Wars it takes another 3 movies, a generation, and a huge interstellar civil war to even begin to undo the damage of the Empire. And that effort ultimately only succeeds because a sidekick with no intelligible dialog hijacked a tank.

    Looked at that way, maybe the problem with the Disney SW movies is that they start to fade into the structure of an individual MCU movie, but are stuck with the need for a global structure like the originals. These two things don't get along very well, because they have entirely different needs. The MCU movie structure needs everything to start and end at the same blurry equilibrium point, SW's multi-film structure needs the context to change, and that change to materially impact the choices available to the heroes.
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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Wait you used to get paid for watching films? Were you a film critic or something?
    Film projectionist. Film movies came on multiple reels, we had to build them and then watch them to make sure they were built correctly and had no problems (eg sent two Reel 2's instead of a Reel 2 and Reel 3, accidentally put Reel 4 on upside down, etc.). You remember in fight Club, when Brad Pitt talks about the cigarette burns in the top right corner of the screen that pop up every so often? Those are real and indicate reel changes so the projectionist knows what reel it is. They're round in flat, oval in scope, one hits 6 seconds before the second, which is about 1 second before the end of the reel. Once you work projection, you can't watch a movie on film anymore without seeing those. It's just an ingrained thing after a while.

    Anyway, that means that I got paid to watch movies every week. I'm not gonna pretend it wasn't great - like, I got to do the MST3K treatment privately with a couple friends for movies like King King back in the mid to late aughts, but I also had to sit through a lot of crap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    There are such people? Truly the world is full of wonder and unbelievable things.
    Any such hypothetical people I will give the benefit of the doubt.

    ETA: Also, some of the huge blockbuster movies would padlock their film cans and only release the codes the day before, and also usually had midnight screenings for the public, which meant they couldn't be screened. So the way to make sure they were built without any errors was "hope you don't get fired if you're wrong".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I agree more or less with the rest you wrote above this, but wanted to bring into it a bit of extra commentary on my part: I believe she is the exact same level of responsible for the sequel trilogy as she is for the Mandalorian.

    Frankly, I don't really care too much about her, but I do dislike when people try to lay the whole thing at her feet.
    Yeah, at least some of that is on others, and she's the convenient person at the top to blame. Fair or not, being the person in charge does tend to attract a degree of credit/blame for what your underlings do.

    If Abrams has to cope with one of his own movies, I'm hardly going to give any benefits of any doubts. He **** the bed and then had to lay in it, to alter the analogy. Pray I do not alter it any further.
    While certainly true, and even episode 7 wasn't amazing, Rian's attempt in the middle probably thoroughly screwed up all of his plans. He seemed to want to basically ape the initial series, but with some added sense of scale. Snoke was the new emperor, and thus..probably intended to have him around to die in Ep 9.

    If he'd been in charge of all three, we'd have probably gotten something still kind of mediocre, but at least tonally consistent. The Snyder Cut vs the Wedon Cut, if you will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Yeah, at least some of that is on others, and she's the convenient person at the top to blame. Fair or not, being the person in charge does tend to attract a degree of credit/blame for what your underlings do.
    Which I would even be more accepting of if she was at the top. She was president of Lucasfilm and would have been effectively the top before 2016 or so, but once she has to take the knee to Disney, they can run ramshod all over her on a whim. When you drop four billion, you're looking for an ROI, and I don't believe for a second they were hands off when they had just gotten the golden goose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    While certainly true, and even episode 7 wasn't amazing, Rian's attempt in the middle probably thoroughly screwed up all of his plans. He seemed to want to basically ape the initial series, but with some added sense of scale. Snoke was the new emperor, and thus..probably intended to have him around to die in Ep 9.

    If he'd been in charge of all three, we'd have probably gotten something still kind of mediocre, but at least tonally consistent. The Snyder Cut vs the Wedon Cut, if you will.
    Which is fair, but he also gave Johnson nothing to work with. What do you do with the second movie of a sequel where you're in the exact same spot you were three movies ago? Now, granted, just saying "nothing matters anymore" and having all the walking of LOTR with none of the rest of LOTR and also set in space is definitely not the way to go, but the hsip he was given was in the middle of an ocean with no navigational markers. He pretty much had to just pick whatever direction he thought best and go with it. It stunk, but at least he tried to do something new, which is more than I can say for Abrams. I'd rather someone try and fail then just go back to the same well over and over and succeed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Which I would even be more accepting of if she was at the top. She was president of Lucasfilm and would have been effectively the top before 2016 or so, but once she has to take the knee to Disney, they can run ramshod all over her on a whim. When you drop four billion, you're looking for an ROI, and I don't believe for a second they were hands off when they had just gotten the golden goose.
    Fair, though folks also don't mind bashing the mouse. It may be that they meddled a fair bit, but if so, we don't have a great deal of insight to it. But sure, I don't mind assuming that they at least ought to share in the blame.

    Which is fair, but he also gave Johnson nothing to work with. What do you do with the second movie of a sequel where you're in the exact same spot you were three movies ago? Now, granted, just saying "nothing matters anymore" and having all the walking of LOTR with none of the rest of LOTR and also set in space is definitely not the way to go, but the hsip he was given was in the middle of an ocean with no navigational markers. He pretty much had to just pick whatever direction he thought best and go with it. It stunk, but at least he tried to do something new, which is more than I can say for Abrams. I'd rather someone try and fail then just go back to the same well over and over and succeed.
    Yeah. There was a good bit of failure all 'round.

    The two things I liked initially about Episode 7 was the initial setup of the awol Stormtrooper, and Kylo as a villain. Both of those were fun threads, sadly, the first got dropped really hard.

    The second wasn't dropped so badly, but ended up getting closely tied to Rey's story, and thus, sort of drawn into the lack of plot progression there.

    I think all three films definitely could have been something more than they were.

  8. - Top - End - #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Which is fair, but he also gave Johnson nothing to work with. What do you do with the second movie of a sequel where you're in the exact same spot you were three movies ago? Now, granted, just saying "nothing matters anymore" and having all the walking of LOTR with none of the rest of LOTR and also set in space is definitely not the way to go, but the hsip he was given was in the middle of an ocean with no navigational markers. He pretty much had to just pick whatever direction he thought best and go with it. It stunk, but at least he tried to do something new, which is more than I can say for Abrams. I'd rather someone try and fail then just go back to the same well over and over and succeed.
    This is pretty unfair. There were numerous plot threads set up in The Force Awakens, Rey's ancestry, the History of Snoke, what Luke had been up to, Finn's entire character development etc. They may not have been plots you liked or were interested in but they were definitely there. Rian Johnson then turned around and threw all of them out which unsurprisingly resulted in the third film being a complete mess.

    There was no way to write a good Rise of Skywalker after the last Jedi. They could have ended the series at movie two but there was no way to get a satisfying concluding chapter after the second film. You were always going to end up with a tonally confused mess because chapter 2 deliberately tore down everything chapter one set up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Film projectionist. Film movies came on multiple reels, we had to build them and then watch them to make sure they were built correctly and had no problems (eg sent two Reel 2's instead of a Reel 2 and Reel 3, accidentally put Reel 4 on upside down, etc.). You remember in fight Club, when Brad Pitt talks about the cigarette burns in the top right corner of the screen that pop up every so often? Those are real and indicate reel changes so the projectionist knows what reel it is. They're round in flat, oval in scope, one hits 6 seconds before the second, which is about 1 second before the end of the reel. Once you work projection, you can't watch a movie on film anymore without seeing those. It's just an ingrained thing after a while.
    I know what a film projectionnist is, thank you. Just because you're an old timer doesn't mean that the "yung uns" are ignorant of everything that happened in your days. Also, I saw Cinema Paradizo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    all the walking of LOTR with none of the rest of LOTR
    Also known as the New Zealand tourism industry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Fair, though folks also don't mind bashing the mouse.
    Well, the Mouse ain't people. Corporate persons don't have feelings, not even corporate ones.



    I think all three films definitely could have been something more than they were.
    Star Wars in a nutshell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoc View Post
    Rey's ancestry
    Rian Johnson did build up on that, in fact he used the only non-terrible answer, in my opinion.
    the History of Snoke
    Abrams did not set up that thread at all. He just had Kylo Ren answer to somebody and washed his hands as to how that fit in the established lore.
    what Luke had been up to
    Given that Abrams established that Luke responded to his student turning school shooter by going to the First Jedi Temple and not doing a thing to combat the rise of the First Order I'm not sure what exactly you would have wanted Johnson show happened before the movie. More fishing?
    Finn's entire character development
    Yeah, that arc was dropped hard.

    There was no way to write a good Rise of Skywalker after the last Jedi. They could have ended the series at movie two but there was no way to get a satisfying concluding chapter after the second film. You were always going to end up with a tonally confused mess because chapter 2 deliberately tore down everything chapter one set up.
    I disagree, TLJ ends with Kylo Ren solidified as a vilain and Luke reaffirming that the Rebellion/Jedi will fight him. TROS is a tonally confused mess because Abrams wanted Kylo Ren to be reedemed so he had to spring another vilain from wherever he could and he decided to slap an Indiana Jones style hunt for a McGuffin over the war narrative for reasons that escape me.

    TLJ had defaults sure, but you can't blame it for TROS, in my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoc View Post
    This is pretty unfair. There were numerous plot threads set up in The Force Awakens, Rey's ancestry, the History of Snoke, what Luke had been up to, Finn's entire character development etc. They may not have been plots you liked or were interested in but they were definitely there. Rian Johnson then turned around and threw all of them out which unsurprisingly resulted in the third film being a complete mess.
    They were a mess to start with! Those plot threads had no answers, they were just random bull**** thrown out for the sake of throwing them out. That's what Abrams does, and it's hardly fair to blame someone else for not coming up with answers when Abrams can't be assed to do it. Those weren't plot threads, threads connect to something. Those were plot lints. Random stuff you can find that wasn't even supposed to connect to anything and was just there to make people look at it. Sure, you can make a thread out of it, but that's difficult and it shouldn't be incumbent upon the person who has to pick up the lint to make a thread and weave something out of it when they can instead take actual plot threads and work with those instead.

    And frankly, speaking just for myself, the best thing Rian Johnson ever did for Star Wars was try to make Rey's lineage a non-issue, because that's what it should have been to start with. Nobody is clamoring to find out who's loins Kenobi or Palpatine or Yoda or Broom Kid or anyone else sprang from, and it shouldn't have mattered for Rey except for how it would affect her personally. And the actual "answer" we got from Abrams? Yeah, that didn't. It was just keys being juggled for the audience to look at for a minute because that's all that hack can do. That and throw plot lint around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    They were a mess to start with! Those plot threads had no answers, they were just random bull**** thrown out for the sake of throwing them out. That's what Abrams does, and it's hardly fair to blame someone else for not coming up with answers when Abrams can't be assed to do it. Those weren't plot threads, threads connect to something. Those were plot lints. Random stuff you can find that wasn't even supposed to connect to anything and was just there to make people look at it. Sure, you can make a thread out of it, but that's difficult and it shouldn't be incumbent upon the person who has to pick up the lint to make a thread and weave something out of it when they can instead take actual plot threads and work with those instead.

    And frankly, speaking just for myself, the best thing Rian Johnson ever did for Star Wars was try to make Rey's lineage a non-issue, because that's what it should have been to start with. Nobody is clamoring to find out who's loins Kenobi or Palpatine or Yoda or Broom Kid or anyone else sprang from, and it shouldn't have mattered for Rey except for how it would affect her personally. And the actual "answer" we got from Abrams? Yeah, that didn't. It was just keys being juggled for the audience to look at for a minute because that's all that hack can do. That and throw plot lint around.
    And do you have an interview or quote where you hear that nothing was planned? At the moment you're just asserting that Abrams didn't have anything without any evidence. Despite the fact that you haven't enjoyed Abrams work Fringe and Alias were enjoyable and in the case of Fringe was paying off plot threads in a satisfactory fashion five seasons in. Yes Abrams has thrown flops in plotting (Lost) but it's not all he's done.

    I would also argue that if you're directing the second movie in a trilogy it very much is incumbent on you to build towards a pay off from what was established in the first movie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoc View Post
    And do you have an interview or quote where you hear that nothing was planned?
    https://www.ted.com/talks/j_j_abrams...ox?language=en

    When a director tells me, in a planned speech where he specifically and solely talks about his style, that he makes up questions that don't have any answers because the answers are wholly unimportant, then I, for one, will choose to believe him.

    There was no plan for Star Wars, there was only the mystery box. Because that's what Abrams does. He'll tell you that directly, in no minced words, to your face, on the record. He did.
    the second movie in a trilogy it very much is incumbent on you to build towards a pay off from what was established in the first movie.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoc View Post
    I would also argue that if you're directing the second movie in a trilogy it very much is incumbent on you to build towards a pay off from what was established in the first movie.
    He did. They may not have been plots you liked or were interested in but they were definitely there.
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    Referring specifically to Star Wars if you please. I don't consider an interview recorded eight years before his first Star Wars movie, which again was part of a larger series, to be particularly relevant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoc View Post
    Referring specifically to Star Wars if you please. I don't consider an interview recorded eight years before his first Star Wars movie, which again was part of a larger series, to be particularly relevant.
    You don't consider an interview where he lays out his specific, signature style of filmmaking to be particularly relevant to his filmmaking on a film he made?

    Well, that's certainly one way to go about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    they can run ramshod all over her
    I do not understand that idiom and Qwant is no help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    lints
    Ooh, new word!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I do not understand that idiom and Qwant is no help.
    "Run roughshod" might get you more hits.

    ETA: Maybe saying it wrong is a southern thing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    https://www.ted.com/talks/j_j_abrams...ox?language=en

    When a director tells me, in a planned speech where he specifically and solely talks about his style, that he makes up questions that don't have any answers because the answers are wholly unimportant, then I, for one, will choose to believe him.

    There was no plan for Star Wars, there was only the mystery box. Because that's what Abrams does. He'll tell you that directly, in no minced words, to your face, on the record. He did.
    the second movie in a trilogy it very much is incumbent on you to build towards a pay off from what was established in the first movie.

    He did. They may not have been plots you liked or were interested in but they were definitely there.
    Artists do develop their style over time and different projects require different approaches. Given that he's had series end since that interview that successfully concluded a narrative I'm not sure how applicable it is in this case. Finally if you can pull off improvisation well plots can be left vague if you have strong themes. This is the old architect vs. gardener approach to writing and a lot of excellent authors (Stephen King for example) land on the improvisational side.

    I do like you using my line on me that was well done

    More generally though you have to be careful about changing tracks in an ongoing series. Otherwise you get a supposedly uplifting moment about how heroically sacrificing yourself to buy others time is a bad thing immediately after you put out Rogue One. It's also extremely difficult to introduce new plots characters etc. in the third act of a trilogy which the ending of TLJ mandated. There needed to be a unifying villain because the previous movie left Hux and Kylo as a joke and killed Snoke. The Emperor coming back was a train wreck but I don't think pulling Thrawn or some Yuzhong Vong nonsense would have been any better.

    Finn's plot didn't have a direction which was a travesty on it's own as defected Stormtrooper is fertile story telling ground. While the theme of corporations profiting off of the galactic conflict might have been interesting it would have needed to have started in the first movie and frankly I can't blame people not wanting to deal with intragalactic trade after the prequels.
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  18. - Top - End - #708
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    Fyraltari's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    "Run roughshod" might get you more hits.

    ETA: Maybe saying it wrong is a southern thing?
    Thank you.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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