The Snyder Cut

[Psyren]

And my point was that there are needlessly edgy portrayals of the Joker. Not that every portrayal was edgy. I wasn't even the one who brought up TAS.

[Keltest]

And my point was that there are needlessly edgy portrayals of the Joker. Not that every portrayal was edgy. I wasn't even the one who brought up TAS.

As noted, even that relatively kid-friendly Joker introduced some dark elements to the canon. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but "Joker isn't edgy at all" is a bizarre take.

You may not have brought it up, but the way you phrased it and responded to it sure seemed like you were conflating "dark" and "edgy" to me. Apologies if i misunderstood.

[Lord Raziere]

As noted, even that relatively kid-friendly Joker introduced some dark elements to the canon. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but "Joker isn't edgy at all" is a bizarre take.

Well. My point is that edginess is nothing but a presentation of a character concept: see the start of a fantasy novel, the archetype of a boy's hometown being destroyed, that boy getting a sword going on a quest for revenge. you may think revenge is an inherently edgy motivation....but its not actually. its incredibly common in such generic fantasy. the villain is often blackhearted and the hero so good-natured otherwise that as long as the protagonist doesn't make speeches about their revenge in between saving every cat from a tree, absolutely no one is going to call that edgy, but cliche.

now take the same character concept and actually focus on the motivation of that character as more than just an excuse to get them out of their hometown so they don't mope at its ruins, show that such an individual is probably not happy, probably has trauma, that their revenge motivation can be pretty destructive to anyone in their way and themselves and such and so on, and people will suddenly call that "edgy" even though it is not even an attempt at being so: the only thing that has changed is that details have been filled in and logical downsides have been acknowledged.

that and I'm not sure what an "edgy" villain is supposed to be, since this whole edginess thing seems most to revolve around anti-heroes. a villain is already villainous so any portrayal of them is inherently dark by default.

[Mordar]

Y'know, this whole Batman's morality business could be solved by simply making a villainous foil to Batman, a rival guy who is just rich that didn't suffer his trauma and just goes around gunning down criminals with like, gold-plated gadgets similar to Batmans and doesn't even try the whole charity and social change business.

Well, there is a Reverse-Batman...but they went with the same/similar trauma and removed the money and support system instead.

Which is why I love the Bane character in the comics (in general - It gives me a version of Valjean-Javert that I love) and hate-hate-hate the movie versions.

- M

[Fyraltari]

Well, there is a Reverse-Batman...but they went with the same/similar trauma and removed the money and support system instead.

Which is why I love the Bane character in the comics (in general - It gives me a version of Valjean-Javert that I love) and hate-hate-hate the movie versions.

- M

Honestly there's a few reverse Batmen: Killer Moth did it before it was cool (I swear), then there's Wrath, there's Prometheus and you can even count Lex Luthor for the bigger scale (Justice League) stories. Oh and the Joker basically evolved into anti-Batman which probably explains his staying power.

[No brains]

I think I would argue that every incarnation of the joker is edgy, at least from the 'I do stuff that shocks people and I don't care' definition of 'edgy'.

I don't even see this as off-topic, a discussion on what constitutes 'edgy' is 100% on-target for a discussion of Snyder.

[Psyren]

You may not have brought it up, but the way you phrased it and responded to it sure seemed like you were conflating "dark" and "edgy" to me. Apologies if i misunderstood.

The "as mentioned", again, was acknowledging that I wasn't the one who brought up TAS.

a villain is already villainous so any portrayal of them is inherently dark by default.

Yeah, but there is a point beyond which adding darkness is just for shock value and detracts from the overall portrayal. Like when Marvel made Blob a cannibal in Ultimatum - it didn't add any dimensions to his villainy, it was just over the top because Ultimatum wanted to kill off a bunch of their good characters in a flashy and attention-grabbing way, so having him eat the Wasp was edge for edge's sake. That one is commonly brought up as an example of "what were they thinking?" when discussing the overall failure of that storyline.

I don't even see this as off-topic, a discussion on what constitutes 'edgy' is 100% on-target for a discussion of Snyder.

Precisely. He might not be as drawn to it as Millar or Ennis... yet... but I'm sure he's looking at their work when deciding what the DCEU should ultimately be.

[Fyraltari]

that and I'm not sure what an "edgy" villain is supposed to be, since this whole edginess thing seems most to revolve around anti-heroes. a villain is already villainous so any portrayal of them is inherently dark by default.

Spoiler: The difference between edgy and non edgy vilains

Show

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: The difference between edgy and non edgy vilains

Show

......your lucky I hold Megamind in high regard. and basically pointed out that I already explained the difference but somehow didn't apply it in the other direction, so thanks.

[Mordar]

Honestly there's a few reverse Batmen: Killer Moth did it before it was cool (I swear), then there's Wrath, there's Prometheus and you can even count Lex Luthor for the bigger scale (Justice League) stories. Oh and the Joker basically evolved into anti-Batman which probably explains his staying power.

So I'm on board with Joker being a polar opposite of one slice of Batman (Batman represents an effort to create order, Joker represents chaos), Wrath is a hamfisted creation that I think helped with Bane as a "we should have done better" lesson so he clearly counts. Moth of think of less as Reverse-Batman and more as a wannabe (who became a pretty successful wannabe) - no similarity in origin, and he just stole the "gadgeteer" and branding idea. I didn't know Prometheus, but a quick primer adds him to the "duh" list. How was he not written off as another Wrath?

But I'm not following the Lex thing...unless you're "just" referring to the using-his-vast-fortune-to-create-gadgets-and-fight side of things. I don't see many similarities besides the vast wealth and gadgets, and generally even the gadgets seem awful different to me. Please enlighten!

- M

[Sapphire Guard]

I'm fondest of the TAS Joker, which had a theme that he was deluding himself with the idea that he was Batman's evil opposite, while he was actually just a pathetic scumbag.

[Fyraltari]

So I'm on board with Joker being a polar opposite of one slice of Batman (Batman represents an effort to create order, Joker represents chaos)

And Batman is serious and brooding while Joker is mirthful and joking.

But I'm not following the Lex thing...unless you're "just" referring to the using-his-vast-fortune-to-create-gadgets-and-fight side of things. I don't see many similarities besides the vast wealth and gadgets, and generally even the gadgets seem awful different to me. Please enlighten!

Both are non-powered humans fighting against and/or alongside godlike beings with wealth, gadgets and a ridiculous amount of planning and genius (or "genius" as the case may be). Really it's more of a by-products of both of them contrasting Supperman.

[Cikomyr2]

I'm fondest of the TAS Joker, which had a theme that he was deluding himself with the idea that he was Batman's evil opposite, while he was actually just a pathetic scumbag.

Wait. That's Lego Joker's character arc

[KarlBoeBoe]

As someone who hasn't read the comics, I would really enjoy seeing some other villains besides joker.

[Tyndmyr]

I don't really buy that Stark is so different, he deals with Cosmic threats as part of the Avengers, but he spends plenty of time dealing with ordinary criminals with knockoff tech.

Yknow, that's fair. That said, I think Stark gets less flak because even in universe, pretty much everyone, even Stark, acknowledges that Stark is a flawed individual. He's definitely super at many things, but he screws up a pretty decent amount.

I think that helps out some when looking at why problems aren't already solved. Batman and Superman get all built up into nigh-perfect roles, which makes any dissonance stand out more. The human flaws make other imperfections in the world around them feel consistent.

As someone who hasn't read the comics, I would really enjoy seeing some other villains besides joker.

Same. Don't get me wrong, there have been some good Jokers, but a change of pace is nice. Unfortunately, a lot of comics tend to focus on the big, well known villains, even when those don't translate very well to the big screen.

See also, the rough attempts at the Fantastic Four. That wasn't the only issue by a mile, but all of the films suffered by being built around a popular villain even if it didn't really fit the story. Same same for X-men and the Phoenix story.

Sometimes pulling stuff from somewhere obscure works amazingly. Guardians of the Galaxy works pretty well compared to any of those.

[Psyren]

I don't really buy that Stark is so different, he deals with Cosmic threats as part of the Avengers, but he spends plenty of time dealing with ordinary criminals with knockoff tech.

I don't know all Tony's terrestrial enemies in the comics, no. But in the MCU? Terrorists, PMCs, rival corporations, foreign powers - all threats that are on his level. No disconnect there.

Spidey uses enough webbing swinging through the streets that I don't think his webbing is so limited. There's no reason he should ever need to punch or kick any mere mortal. His beating of criminals requires all the same assumptions as Bats (more, because superhuman strength).

It's quite the opposite actually - Spiderman's greater strength and agility means he can pull his punches much easier. For Batman and Daredevil to survive taking on a dozen henchmen, they might have to break a few limbs to take people out of the fight quickly, but that same dozen will be lucky if they even hit Peter, much less do any real damage. This leads to a large tonal difference in their fights - Spiderman vs. muggles tends to end up devolving into slapstick moreso than sheer brutality.

(Not that those other two have any qualms about breaking bones anyway)

I think that helps out some when looking at why problems aren't already solved. Batman and Superman get all built up into nigh-perfect roles, which makes any dissonance stand out more. The human flaws make other imperfections in the world around them feel consistent.

I feel that this is Marvel's greatest strength, and I don't see an easy solution for DC.

Sometimes pulling stuff from somewhere obscure works amazingly. Guardians of the Galaxy works pretty well compared to any of those.

This succeeded largely because of the goodwill Marvel had built up with Phase 1; getting audiences to care about a team-up where none of the characters are well-known is risky. And as Suicide Squad 1 showed us, it can crash and burn pretty spectacularly too. And it did so despite actually having a leg-up over Guardians in the known faces department.

[Peelee]

It's quite the opposite actually - Spiderman's greater strength and agility means he can pull his punches much easier.

Watch enough Golden Harvest flicks and you'll start to notice the villains are largely played by the same people. Jackie Chan, a man incredibly famous for his great strength and agility, works almost exclusively with the Jackie Chan Stunt Team, a group of people who are trained to match him speed for speed and move for move, because if they don't they get hurt - Jackie Chan has great difficulty pulling his punches, despite being trained in Beijing Opera School and being a top-tier stunt man, fight choreographer, and actor for a half century now.

Granted, the ability pull punches may come in his super hero package, but it's not necessarily an easy thing to do in general.

[Ronnoc]

Granted, the ability pull punches may come in his super hero package, but it's not necessarily an easy thing to do in general.

It does, the webhead's superhuman reflexes and coordination allow him the control necessary to subdue without causing permanent harm. It was established fairly early in his publication history that Spiderman normally goes very easy on baseline gang members.

[Psyren]

^ I'm pretty sure Spidey has had at least one World of Cardboard speech like Supes had had (to a lesser degree, obviously) that lampshades this very fact.

[Kitten Champion]

I think one of the particular strengths of Spider-Man is how often they portray him just saving people, sans violence. A lot of the bigger moments in the movies are Spider-Man stopping heavy objects from falling on people, saving people falling off bridges, that famous scene where he uses his body and webbing to stop a runaway train, or in Homecoming where he's patching together the ferry together -- it's a common enough thing that I pretty much expect something like it in every Spider-Man movie and most of the cartoons.

The only other Superhero I can think of similarly was Superman. I mean, in the beforetimes.

[Clertar]

I'm fondest of the TAS Joker, which had a theme that he was deluding himself with the idea that he was Batman's evil opposite, while he was actually just a pathetic scumbag.

That's my favourite Joker. In this vein, I would love to see a Batman in the Joker movie universe, and how that Joker would play against that Batman (and Batman back).

[Tyrant]

^ I'm pretty sure Spidey has had at least one World of Cardboard speech like Supes had had (to a lesser degree, obviously) that lampshades this very fact.

I don't read enough Spider-Man to know about a World of Cardboard speech, but he does give Iron Man a "your faceplate won't stop my fist if I am genuinely after you" speech after their falling out in Civil War.

[Peelee]

I don't read enough Spider-Man to know about a World of Cardboard speech, but he does give Iron Man a "your faceplate won't stop my fist if I am genuinely after you" speech after their falling out in Civil War.

Doesn't his armor protect him from tank munitions? I am pressing X to doubt, Pete.

[No brains]

IIRC, one of the spiderman games had a hint that mentions that spiderman pulls his punches. I think it was spiderman 2.

[Lord Raziere]

IIRC, one of the spiderman games had a hint that mentions that spiderman pulls his punches. I think it was spiderman 2.

Pretty sure my good friend Rater has talked about Spiderman being stronger than he seems and having took on very powerful foes.

I forget the details but he it made Spiderman sound like the Batman of the Marvel Universe: in his original own series he fights street level villains, but in reality he has taken on beings far greater and is capable of punching far above his weight class.

[Peelee]

My only issue with Spider-Man's supposed super-strength can be summed up in one word: Kingpin.

Imean, it's not terribly fair since Kingpin is mostly a Daredevil villain, but still. Spidey can be strong, but unless he just likes struggling and losing, he's probably not pulling his punches that much. And definitely not punching through Iron Man's faceplate.

[Rater202]

Pretty sure my good friend Rater has talked about Spiderman being stronger than he seems and having took on very powerful foes.

I forget the details but he it made Spiderman sound like the Batman of the Marvel Universe: in his original own series he fights street level villains, but in reality he has taken on beings far greater and is capable of punching far above his weight class.

Spider-Man's greatest quantifiable feat of strength was during the Lee-Ditko era, suring the Master-Planner arc

"If This Be My Destiny" Peter has just beaten the crap out of Doc Ock, who had stolen a shipment of a rare isotope tha'ts radiation could neutralize the tradition in his own blood and thus, cure the radiation sickness that Aunt May was suffering as a delayed result of a blood transfusion he gave her in an earlier storyline.

However, the fight damaged the supports of Ock's underwater base causing Peter to be trapped under a mass of metal and machinery said to weighs as much as a locomotive while the room he was in slowly flooded.

Peter, trapped, has visions of his aunt in her hospital bed with Uncle Ben looking back at her, insists that he has a responsibility, and using all of his strength is able to lift the machinery off of himself, grab the isotope, and escape.

The comparison to a locomotive puts the machinery at anywhere between 120 to 160 US tons.

Peter's sustainable lift at the time was 6 us tons... But that was when he was a teenager. It's canonically been over a decade since then, and as a full grown adult his sustainable overhead lift is 10 tons, indicating that what he can lift as a feat of strength is stronger.

This is supported by things like supporting the entire weight of the Daily Bugle building when one of its key supports was taken out. We don't know exactly how much the building weighed due to not know its exact proportions or how it was finished(we rarely see more than just the main office floor) but a 46 story building has got to weigh a hell of a lot.

In comparison to other characters: An early(Lee-Kirby) issue of The Avengers, during a period of time when Iron Man was missing, had Kang the Conquerer build an android modeled on Spider-Man with as accurate an approximation of Peter's powers as he could muster.

This android would approach the Avengers claiming to be the real Spider-Man and that he had a lead on where Iron Man was, lead them into a trap, separate them, and defeat them one by one—the android defeated Captain America, Giant-Man, the Wasp, and Thor in one on one fights in a quick successor, all pretty easy, but then the real Spider-Man showed up, pissed of about someone impersonating him, found out it was a bad guy, and easily defeated it. So, by transitive property, a teenage Peter Parker defeated Thor.

More recently, in Superior Spider-Man Doc Ock in Peter's body needed to be held back by Jane Foster as Thor and the Doc Omega Hulk Personality(basically the big guy, but smarter) and was still dragging them behind him and moving very slowly.

The actual Peter was once able to rip Mjolnir out of Jane's hands when she was under the control of something or other that turned her against the Avengers without making her Unworthy(though he was using Webline.)

Peter's first-ever encounter with Superhumans was when he tried to join the Fantastic Four, one thing led to another, they ended up fighting, and Peter wiped the floor with them.

Peter's rogues gallery includes people who tend to wipe the floor with other heroes, needing A-listers or whole teams to be as effective as Spidey by himself—Osborn is an Avengers level threat, Rhino is a gamma-ray mutate who regularly throws down with the Hulk, The Shocker is "invincible in New Jersey" etcetera.

Notably, Spider-Man once defeated the Juggernaut singlehandedly which, back during Cain's villain days, usually required an entire team of X-Men.

I'm honestly surprised that Weapon Plus has never tried to use Spider-Man's DNA to make super-soldiers. Peter's power set is the basic Super Soldier Package cranked up to 11 and nobody ever seems to have trouble getting their hands on Peter's DNA for these kinds of things.

My only issue with Spider-Man's supposed super-strength can be summed up in one word: Kingpin.

I mean, it's not terribly fair since Kingpin is mostly a Daredevil villain, but still. Spidey can be strong, but unless he just likes struggling and losing, he's probably not pulling his punches that much. And definitely not punching through Iron Man's faceplate.

A thing to note about the Kingpin is that while he looks fat, very little of his bulk is blubber. Under a thin layer of surplus fat the man is built like a brick outhouse. Based on his bodily proportions(notably, the fact that his fists are the size of most people's heads) he also seems to have what appears to be a non-terminal form of Gigantism.

He's also in the top twenty or thirty greatest martial artists in the world. His training regimen involves hiring ninja assassins to attack him at random as he goes about his day and do their absolute best to kill him... Well, I say "hire" but they rarely live long enough to collect their paychecks.

Someone like Shang-Chi or Iron Fist or Fat Cobra would hand him his ass, but his skill is definitely comparable to someone like Daredevil or Black Panther, who are able to fight on par with superhuman martial artists.

A thing to note about Spider-Man: His "no killing policy" makes Batman look like Agent 47. He took a bullet for Norman Osborn after Osborn had tried to murder several of his loved ones, had just murdered Flash Thompson, and had also killed a random civilian all for the sole intent of hurting Peter.

(All cards on the table, Osborn had been neutralized as a threat at that point. Dude was catatonic.)

In Spider-Man/Deadpool, when Peter realizes that he might have to Kill Itsy Bitsy to stop her murder spree he becomes nihilistically, almost suicidally depressed. He seriously considered just picking her up and carrying her into a Plasma Breeder(which simulates the conditions at the core of the Sun) to finish them both off.

(All cards on the table, that entire extended storyline was a plot by Mephisto to manipulate Spider-Man into breaking his personal code of morals and then killing himself so that Mephisto could claim his soul.)


In superior Spider-Man, Doc Ock in Peter's body punches the Scorpion's Jaw clean off by accident and has a moment of "I should be dead" when he realizes just how much Peter is pulling his punches.

It's basically established that Peter's Spider-Sense has a "low setting" features where it doesn't tingle but does sort of guide him s that he doesn't do any more than he intends to. This is why he can punch normals without them exploding into chunky salsa, this s also why he can shake someone's hands without breaking their fingers.

The Kingpin can fight Peter relatively evenly becuase Peter doesn't want to kill him.

Notably, just after Aunt May was shot by one of Fisks' assassins btut before Peter and MJ made the deal with Mephisto, Peter put on the (cloth) black suit, tracked Fisk down, and beat the ever-loving **** out of him. Fisk did not stand a chance, and Peter made it abundantly clear that it was only his good graces that Fisk had ever stood a chance.

[Peelee]

[kingpin info]

The biggest thing to note about Kingpin is he has zero superpowers whatsoever. He may be the peak human strength, strongest non-super, non-mutant human alive, but he is still a standard human at the end of the day. Either he can give Spider-Man a run for his money, or Spider-Man can punch through Iron Man's faceplate if he wanted. Can't have both - at least, not without Iron Man cutting some serious corners on that suit.

[Rater202]

The biggest thing to note about Kingpin is he has zero superpowers whatsoever. He may be the peak human strength, strongest non-super, non-mutant human alive, but he is still a standard human at the end of the day. Either he can give Spider-Man a run for his money, or Spider-Man can punch through Iron Man's faceplate if he wanted. Can't have both - at least, not without Iron Man cutting some serious corners on that suit.

So, Marvel does a comic called What-If about what would have happened if certain events had gone differently.

One such one was what if Fisk's assassin had succeeded in his mission and killed AMry Jane instead of merely severely wounding Aunt MAy.

Peter shoved his fist through Fisk's chest, then walked up to the police and turned himself in for murder.

Literally, the only reason Fisk can pose a threat to Spider-Man is that Peter lets him. If Peter was willing to kill, there would be no supervillains in New York city.

When Peter isn't holding back—and this is a Superman situation where his powers let him perfectly control how much force his movements use so he doesn't break things he doesn't want to break—he's shown to be able to shatter steel and granite with his punches.

Being able to tank an explosion is one thing. Being able to tank the same energy as that explosion concentrated into a single fist-sized strike moving at roughly four times the speed of the faster human punch on record? Different situation entirely.

The Extremis armor, what Tony mostly used at the time, is tough, but it can be broken. Thor was able to choke Tony hard enough to leave bruises on his neck through the armor and later was able to shatter some of it's planting with a light tap. Abnd as established, under the right circumstance Peter can scale to Thor.

[Lemmy]

I think it's rather obvious that Spider-Man was being hyperbolic for intimidation purposes.

Iron Man's helmet has resisted attacks from guys like Hulk... Tony Stark usually doesn't leave unscathed, and probably gets a few new concussions every time, but his helmet generally survives (possibly somewhat bent or cracked).