The Snyder Cut

[Peelee]

Yeah, comics are by their nature inconsistent.

Spidey is portrayed as stronger than the average person. How much varies based on the author and themes of the works. When he’s facing Juggernaut in an awesome comic about Pete striving against impossible odds, it doesn’t matter that he has canonically lifted heavier things than Juggs ever has.

Trying to make a consistent guideline about who’s stronger or what powers relate to each other seems an exercise in futility.

Fisk has gotten into fistfights with Pete and utterly stomped him. Fisk has also been beaten in like a page. Both are canon.

If you’re interested in internal consistency, then yeah it’s pretty bad writing. If you’re interested in watching character dynamics, personality growth, development of arcs. It’s... still often pretty bad. But occasionally really good.

Imean, I love Star Wars, so I'm pretty familiar with "still often pretty bad, but occasionally really good".

[Gallowglass]

...canonically ... canonically

You keep saying the word "canonically" as if it gives some oompf or credence to your opinions.

In comics it doesn't. Spiderman has been published since, what, 1963 so coming on 60 years, over literally thousands of issues, by hundreds of different writers, all of which are "canon" and all of which constantly undermine, contradict, and rewrite each other.

One story says he has an IQ of 250 and operates in league with Reed Richards, Hank Pym, Bruce Banner, etc. Another says he's vaguely smarter than a normal person. One story says he can lift 15 tons, another shows him lifting 40 tons, another has him barely able to lift 1 ton.

So, I mean, you can keep repeating it, I can't stop you, but it doesn't mean anything. It certainly doesn't prove your point.

Another femme fatale spy, really? Marvel doesn't have enough of those?

Funny story. When they were making the Skrull Invasion plotline, I thought it would be cool to have a story about the people taken by the skrulls breaking out of a skrull prison, stealing a spaceship and trying to find their way home.

So i started making a list of the people taken... and almost all the female characters were all the same character.

Electra
Mockingbird
Contessa De Fontaine
Jessica Drew

and so on... it was really hard to figure out how to niche all these into one story without them stealing each other's spotlights.

(Also, further proof that Brian Bendis is as much an actual feminist as Joss Whedon is, but that's for a different forum )

[Mordar]

I like the idea of Peter being smart enough to design something that, in combination with his unique power set to iterate on it, proved difficult if not impossible for other Marvel luminaries to replicate.

I don't as much like the idea of Peter being in the same mental weight class as Reed, Banner, Stark and Pym. Part of Spiderman's appeal is that anybody lucky (or unlucky) enough to get these powers could be a hero, and that's a harder sell if he's a Class A prodigy. This is why I also dislike stories about the spider bite being somehow destined or arranged by Peter's dead parents.

What comics used to have is niche expertise. Then it became blurred niches. Then, particularly with the transition to film, became "expert at anything is expert at everything". So instead of Tony Stark being a great mechanical/electrical (and then arc-reactoral) engineer, he is a mega savant who becomes a theoretical astrophysics expert overnight. Darcy Lewis becomes a top-tier scientist who also can blow through SWORD "firewalls" with the ability of a super-hacker despite being a joke character. Shuri immediately recognizes the necessary technique to integrate (dis-integrate?) the most complex AI web ever, because Vibranium.

Peter, Reed, Tony, Shuri...all smart, but suddenly all (at least the last three) became blessed with Forge's mutant power, but for Plot Advancement.

And yeah, the super secret special parents thing is plain dumb. Even James and Lily left their orphaned child with an inheritance to live on...but the super spies didn't set up any sort of clever living trust to funnel a few grand to May and Pete?

That's the thing about Spider-Man, despite being presented as a normal guy he kind of... Isn't.

Normal guys don't get to be good-looking super-geniuses who exclusively date strong, intelligent women who are beautiful enough to be supermodels or movie stars without excessive makeup or unhealthy diets and be rich at multiple non-sequential periods of time.

Peter's Parents were CIA Agents that were friends with Nick Fury and wolverine for crap's sake. The reason he's an orphan is because his parents were murdered by the Red Skull and he discovered that they were spying on him(The Soviet Imposter, not Johann Schmidt.)

Peter is relatable but he's not an ordinary guy by any means.

The CIA bit is *very* new in his timeline...and he was definitively not cool or good looking. MJ, Gwen, etc...well, that's strictly wish-fulfillment as they see beyond the flash of Flash and recognize the good soul that is Peter. Its not that he out-hots the boys...its that he deserves happily ever after.

That mostly sounds like power creep mixed with bad writing. Which sadly seems more and more likely the longer a series lasts. It's like Godwin but for narratives; as a series continues, the likelihood of ridiculous power creep approaches 1.

Too true. And that power creep is magnified with need to match rule-of-cool movies, new "edgy" characters and rapidly advancing expectations of 12 year olds.

- M

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, comics are by their nature inconsistent.

American superhero comics =/= comics.

Sorry, pet peeve.

[Rater202]

The CIA bit is *very* new in his timeline.

...Peter's parents were established to have been Government Agents who infiltrated the Imposter Red Skull's organization to spy on him and were murdered for it in Amazing Spider-Man Annual #5.

That was published in 1968.

Over 52 years ago is not "very new."

[No brains]

American superhero comics =/= comics.

Sorry, pet peeve.

Are Asterix and Donald Duck bastions of rock-solid consistency?

Although anything in any medium that can continue for 60-odd years is going to have some plot holes. A new story a month for hundreds of months is going to prioritize getting that story out, even if it doesn't completely agree with canon.

Though I will back that American superhero comics may be especially vulnerable to this because they are intended as fantastic stories and flying in the face of what a person thought they knew for sure is pretty fantastic.

I wonder if Snyder will ever direct an Asterix or Donald Duck movie?

[Mordar]

...Peter's parents were established to have been Government Agents who infiltrated the Imposter Red Skull's organization to spy on him and were murdered for it in Amazing Spider-Man Annual #5.

That was published in 1968.

Over 52 years ago is not "very new."

Wow. As a frequent/regular reader from about 78-early 90s I really was not aware. And that isn't a What-If...it just didn't seem to have traction that I can recall.

Info assimilated.

- M

[Rater202]

Wow. As a frequent/regular reader from about 78-early 90s I really was not aware. And that isn't a What-If...it just didn't seem to have traction that I can recall.

Info assimilated.

- M

It's one of those storylines that just doesn't come up unless someone can think of something to do with it.

Honestly, I don't think people like to talk about anything involving Soviet Red Skull becuase his concept really doesn't make much sense. He exists solely to retcon the Red Skull from the really, really not good 50s Era Captain America comics that were pretty much just propaganda into being a separate character from the "real" Red Skull.

Likewise, the "Steve Rogers" in those comics was retconned into being William Burnside, a Captain America Fanboy who studied cap obsessively and had his name legally changed, then gave himself superpowers with a homemade SSS derivative he created after accidentally stumbling across notes that the Nazis took while trying to reengineer Erksine's formula while in Germany studying Captain America from the German perspective.

A combination of impurities in his formulas and the lacking of a vital stabilizing component(implied to be the vita rays) resulted in him and his bucky eventually going insane and being put in cryostasis until they could be cured.

I think the las time Burnside was seen in a story he was stable enough that the Government was optimistic that he could eventually be cured with intensive psychotherapy.

[Fyraltari]

Are Asterix and Donald Duck bastions of rock-solid consistency?

They're not trying to be. Donjon (23 years old, 43 albums), Sillage (23 years old, 20 albums) and Thorgal (44 years old, 38 albums) are, and while not flawless, are much better.

Though I will back that American superhero comics may be especially vulnerable to this because they are intended as fantastic stories and flying in the face of what a person thought they knew for sure is pretty fantastic.

No that's not the issue, the issue is that american superhero comics publish an issue a month, which is already a lot, but have various storylines published at the same time and constantly change the writers and artist. Of course there is no constistency with a mess like that.

I wonder if Snyder will ever direct an Asterix or Donald Duck movie?

Spoiler

Show

[GloatingSwine]

No that's not the issue, the issue is that american superhero comics publish an issue a month, which is already a lot, but have various storylines published at the same time and constantly change the writers and artist. Of course there is no constistency with a mess like that.

They also have published an issue every month for 60-80 years and will continue to do so until no longer profitable.

That means that, well, almost nothing gets to stay happened. And in fact the bigger and more dramatic the event, and the more development and change it provokes in a character, the more likely it will be repeated further down the line in far less impactful and interesting fashion.

[Tyndmyr]

What comics used to have is niche expertise. Then it became blurred niches. Then, particularly with the transition to film, became "expert at anything is expert at everything". So instead of Tony Stark being a great mechanical/electrical (and then arc-reactoral) engineer, he is a mega savant who becomes a theoretical astrophysics expert overnight. Darcy Lewis becomes a top-tier scientist who also can blow through SWORD "firewalls" with the ability of a super-hacker despite being a joke character. Shuri immediately recognizes the necessary technique to integrate (dis-integrate?) the most complex AI web ever, because Vibranium.

Peter, Reed, Tony, Shuri...all smart, but suddenly all (at least the last three) became blessed with Forge's mutant power, but for Plot Advancement.

Yeah. Not all smart people are usually smart in the same way. Banner's seven doctorates is a bit eye rolling(as is Cheetarah's five in wonder woman or whatever. Even listed out, and fairly disparate for added cringe) Sure, the very smart people tend to have at least some breadth of knowledge, and can extrapolate to things adjacent to their specialty, certainly. But not everything. Your computer programmer and your biologist are probably not exceptionally gifted at each other's fields.

Hell, not even all strong people are strong in the same way. The runner and the power lifter probably have very different capabilities and body types. Building towards one archetypal character that's good at everything is awfully boring.

[Clertar]

(as is Cheetarah's five in wonder woman or whatever. Even listed out, and fairly disparate for added cringe)

I wasn't sure what you meant, but a Google search listed this for Cheetah

By age 26, she had mastered seven languages and earned two PhDs in archaeology.

[Tyndmyr]

I wasn't sure what you meant, but a Google search listed this for Cheetah

In the movie she's got biology, gemology, and a bunch of others I don't recall. Archaeology sounds like one of them.

And also, is somehow impressed that Wonder Woman speaks Latin.

I think it's meant as shorthand for "these people are smart" of course, but it's a touch jarring.

The quote you list is also pretty wild. A second PhD in the exact same field? That sounds like a huge waste of time.

[Gallowglass]

I like it. Power Creep has become Smarts Creep.

for decades, Tony Stark was just a gifted engineer, not even remotely on level with, say, Reed Richards.

Reed Richards was building time machines and extradimensional portals and teleporters to cross the universe and microverse traversers and so on.

Tony was building a slightly better armored suit. Adding stealth technology that gave him cancer.

Different world of smarts.

Now, they are all the same.

[Aedilred]

Yeah. Not all smart people are usually smart in the same way. Banner's seven doctorates is a bit eye rolling(as is Cheetarah's five in wonder woman or whatever. Even listed out, and fairly disparate for added cringe) Sure, the very smart people tend to have at least some breadth of knowledge, and can extrapolate to things adjacent to their specialty, certainly. But not everything. Your computer programmer and your biologist are probably not exceptionally gifted at each other's fields.

What are the chances that Bruce Banner has one PhD that he got the usual way, and six honorary PhDs?

[Keltest]

What are the chances that Bruce Banner has one PhD that he got the usual way, and six honorary PhDs?

Probably about the same as the chances that the writers gave it as much thought as we on the forums are giving it.

[Lord Raziere]

Your all assuming that this power creep was intended. It probably wasn't. The truth of the matter is that any fictional hero's initial concept doesn't cover all the things they need to do to actually win or do all the things they do, and since they're the protagonist, that means you have to make patches over time, and them doing cool/awesome things sells better than not doing cool/awesome things. All these examples of them being versatile are probably literally true, simply to explain how they can be competent enough to do all this as a lone or small team superhero. PhD and doctorates are pretty specialized. After all, its not as if they can call up some genius friend in the middle of a supers fight to check whether something is possible or not and in a world as varied as supers where you might face something ridiculous like a half-magic half nanorobot superclay alien zebra, (no I do not even know what that even is, I just came up with it) you gotta come up with some solution and fast.

and resetting them back to more grounded stories....that won't work. thats just another reboot. and comics continuity and ridiculousness only gets WORSE when you do that. because you have to do a big crossover event before you do that, meaning it gets worse before it gets better, and it won't last. unless you take the time and effort to be super-consistent with what your character can or cannot do, take notes to make sure they stick to that, as well as what threats they are capable of facing with what they can do, your eventually going to write something they need to do for the plot to work, but your aren't sure if they can or can't. They're on a schedule so the writer doesn't always have time to come up with a third solution that is more creative so they simply go with can so they at least making something cool out of it. and who knows? the writers may not always have a choice in who they face and may not be able to choose whether they face grounded threats. popularity is a factor, and you'll get a famous grounded hero facing against some powerful being simply because its inherently interesting how someone like that would even handle the threat and surprises you by going against the assumption that they couldn't do it- the fact that its revealing that they can is meant to be exciting.

like this is all an accumulation of things added over time, and we only know all these details with the help of wikis and dedicated fans putting it all together- would we even be sure of all this if there wasn't? not with the massive amount of things to shift through. archive panic doesn't even begin to describe comic books.

[Tyndmyr]

I think a significant part of it is that it's genuinely difficult to portray a character far smarter than you, so folks fall back on cheats.

Stronger, well, to some extent that can be done. If I can lift a hundred pounds, perhaps this guy can lift a thousand. Or ten thousand! By simple multiplication, the idea is conveyed.

And so folks attempt the same concept on intelligence. If one doctorate is impressive, then why not more?

Intelligence works a little differently, though. A truly smart person isn't just doing the same things faster, or doing more. He's doing things differently. Look at someone like Einstein. How many degrees did he have? Two. Bachelors and PhD, both in the same field. As educational attainment goes, that doesn't look even slightly different from many, many other people.

No, what set him apart was all of the things he uncovered that nobody else had, and his tireless work to do so.

[Trafalgar]

I like it. Power Creep has become Smarts Creep.

for decades, Tony Stark was just a gifted engineer, not even remotely on level with, say, Reed Richards.

Reed Richards was building time machines and extradimensional portals and teleporters to cross the universe and microverse traversers and so on.

Tony was building a slightly better armored suit. Adding stealth technology that gave him cancer.

Different world of smarts.

Now, they are all the same.

One thing I never liked with Tony Stark is he started as a gifted engineer, at some point became a great scientist, and also is a highly skilled welder, electrician, electronics technician, computer programmer, hacker, etc. Lets just take welding. It takes years to become a good welder. And even then, if some new metal like titanium is put in front of you, you need to relearn everything you due to the difference in material properties,

[Gallowglass]

There was this irritating period a few years ago where Marvel was intent on actually ranking who was the smartest people on earth. I remember this character, Amadeaus Cho who kept calling himself "the seventh smartest person in the world" and they kept trying to rank who was one through ten.

[Rynjin]

After all, its not as if they can call up some genius friend in the middle of a supers fight to check whether something is possible or not

...Why not? Is the implication here that Tony Stark can build a flying robot suit that can crack planets in half but hasn't figured out hands free bluetooth technology?

[Lord Raziere]

...Why not? Is the implication here that Tony Stark can build a flying robot suit that can crack planets in half but hasn't figured out hands free bluetooth technology?

No.

You try calling up a guy with knowledge in a completely different field that is outside the realm of normal knowledge or technology while some villain is smashing your face in with some exotic power, hold a conversation with that expert and come up with a solution while trying to understand what the heck they are saying, then execute in the split seconds needed to make sure that villain won't hurt anyone without dying.

Guarantee you, the mental capacity to do all that is just as unrealistic as being a super-genius who can assess the situation themselves with the knowledge needed and do it all themselves. The difference is, that way you have to add unneeded exposition through confused inconvenient awkward dialogue that only takes up time.

[hungrycrow]

There was this irritating period a few years ago where Marvel was intent on actually ranking who was the smartest people on earth. I remember this character, Amadeaus Cho who kept calling himself "the seventh smartest person in the world" and they kept trying to rank who was one through ten.

That's hilarious! Was someone running around giving IQ tests to everyone? Like Doctor Doom and all the other villains would actually take that seriously?

[Mordar]

Your all assuming that this power creep was intended. It probably wasn't. The truth of the matter is that any fictional hero's initial concept doesn't cover all the things they need to do to actually win or do all the things they do, and since they're the protagonist, that means you have to make patches over time, and them doing cool/awesome things sells better than not doing cool/awesome things. All these examples of them being versatile are probably literally true, simply to explain how they can be competent enough to do all this as a lone or small team superhero. PhD and doctorates are pretty specialized. After all, its not as if they can call up some genius friend in the middle of a supers fight to check whether something is possible or not and in a world as varied as supers where you might face something ridiculous like a half-magic half nanorobot superclay alien zebra, (no I do not even know what that even is, I just came up with it) you gotta come up with some solution and fast.

and resetting them back to more grounded stories....that won't work. thats just another reboot. and comics continuity and ridiculousness only gets WORSE when you do that. because you have to do a big crossover event before you do that, meaning it gets worse before it gets better, and it won't last. unless you take the time and effort to be super-consistent with what your character can or cannot do, take notes to make sure they stick to that, as well as what threats they are capable of facing with what they can do, your eventually going to write something they need to do for the plot to work, but your aren't sure if they can or can't. They're on a schedule so the writer doesn't always have time to come up with a third solution that is more creative so they simply go with can so they at least making something cool out of it. and who knows? the writers may not always have a choice in who they face and may not be able to choose whether they face grounded threats. popularity is a factor, and you'll get a famous grounded hero facing against some powerful being simply because its inherently interesting how someone like that would even handle the threat and surprises you by going against the assumption that they couldn't do it- the fact that its revealing that they can is meant to be exciting.

like this is all an accumulation of things added over time, and we only know all these details with the help of wikis and dedicated fans putting it all together- would we even be sure of all this if there wasn't? not with the massive amount of things to shift through. archive panic doesn't even begin to describe comic books.

While the outcome isn't intentional (in the books), the steps there each appear to be. You can only give characters new/expanded powers by an act of will. Sure, being a little faster, a little stronger, powerbeams a little powery-er...that is more manageable, but even "This new suit goes to 11!" is clearly an intentional decision. As I'll mention below, if the solution to "How does Spider-Man get out of this trap?" is "he uses his never before seen power of burrowing because the spider that bit him was 7.36% Trap Door Spider" than the creatives have intentionally increased his power scope/scale and in an unnecessary fashion.

Totally right on the reboot thing...the only times I've seen it and liked it was with the Ultimates (I think that was it...and only for a little while) and the New 52 for like 10 issues before it just ended up being another power expansion.

...Why not? Is the implication here that Tony Stark can build a flying robot suit that can crack planets in half but hasn't figured out hands free bluetooth technology?

No.

You try calling up a guy with knowledge in a completely different field that is outside the realm of normal knowledge or technology while some villain is smashing your face in with some exotic power, hold a conversation with that expert and come up with a solution while trying to understand what the heck they are saying, then execute in the split seconds needed to make sure that villain won't hurt anyone without dying.

Guarantee you, the mental capacity to do all that is just as unrealistic as being a super-genius who can assess the situation themselves with the knowledge needed and do it all themselves. The difference is, that way you have to add unneeded exposition through confused inconvenient awkward dialogue that only takes up time.

But this overlooks one thing...the writers/artists have complete control of the situation, story and resolution. Don't put Wolverine in a situation that requires advanced calculus before he can snikt. Don't put Tony Stark in a position that requires theoretical astrophysics to unravel. Don't put Stephen Strange in a position that requires normal human compassion a grasp of 3rd century Baltic history unobtainable by any magic spell at his disposal. Don't make Darcy need to hack SWORD files to get the information...just make it freaking available if she's not long-established as a hacker that makes sense.

- M

[Peelee]

No.

You try calling up a guy with knowledge in a completely different field that is outside the realm of normal knowledge or technology while some villain is smashing your face in with some exotic power, hold a conversation with that expert and come up with a solution while trying to understand what the heck they are saying, then execute in the split seconds needed to make sure that villain won't hurt anyone without dying.

An ideal solution to this problem would be "don't deliberately put your character in this situation to start with". If I need my character to be stronger than they should be to fight a T-Rex, instead of arbitrarily making the character stronger, I could just not make them fight a T-Rex and instead make them fight something that is more on their level.

ETA: Ninja'd!

[Rynjin]

But this overlooks one thing...the writers/artists have complete control of the situation, story and resolution. Don't put Wolverine in a situation that requires advanced calculus before he can snikt. Don't put Tony Stark in a position that requires theoretical astrophysics to unravel. Don't put Stephen Strange in a position that requires normal human compassion a grasp of 3rd century Baltic history unobtainable by any magic spell at his disposal. Don't make Darcy need to hack SWORD files to get the information...just make it freaking available if she's not long-established as a hacker that makes sense.

- M

Exactly.

But if you do put them in an "unwinnable" situation, have it have a point; "The hero can't do it alone, he needs help from a friend" is a solid (if a bit cliche at this point) trope to draw on, and is satisfying for a reason.

Tony calling up Hank to help solve some quantum physics problem he needs to save the day might be "just as unrealistic" (though that's arguable) but it's infinitely more narratively interesting than Tony going "and you see, I was a master of quantum physics all along!" and solving the problem with no effort.

It also makes this shared universe of heroes actually, you know, MATTER outside of huge overblown crossover events.

[Rater202]

On Iron Man's skillset.

Iron Man's genius creep is the result of his "gimmick" being updated over time to keep it making sense.

Originally in the 60s Tony's thing was that he was skilled at designing weapons and armored vehicles for the US Military and that he'd invented a way to make transistors smaller and more efficient than anyone else.

Essentially, he'd invented Microchips before they existed in real life.

Due to the sliding scale timeline, that stopped making sense after Microchips were invented for real, so...

Basically, Tony's armors works on whatever the bleeding edge of technology is in real life, but smaller and more efficient. Nanomachines of some kind have been the big thing for the last long while.

But the more real-life tech advances, the more implausible it is that Tony could master all of the skills needed to make that kind of tech singlehandedly.

[Peelee]

Originally in the 60s Tony's thing was that he was skilled at designing weapons and armored vehicles for the US Military and that he'd invented a way to make transistors smaller and more efficient than anyone else.

Essentially, he'd invented Microchips before they existed in real life.

Due to the sliding scale timeline, that stopped making sense after Microchips were invented for real, so...

You mean after they were invented for real in the 60's?

[Rater202]

You mean after they were invented for real in the 60's?

Basically yes. After they were invented for real, Iron Man's "miniaturized transistors" got less impressive and he had to update his stuff.

[Peelee]

Basically yes. After they were invented for real, Iron Man's "miniaturized transistors" got less impressive and he had to update his stuff.

Imean, they were invented pretty early on in the 60s (or, at least, the first successful prototypes that could really be called "microchips" as we know them). And were in development since the late 40s, IIRC. And even in the 70s, they were still impressive. I don't know much about early Iron Man (or, to be fair, later Iron Man either), but this seems like more of a case of art imitating life.