The Snyder Cut

[Rater202]

Imean, they were invented pretty early on in the 60s (or, at least, the first successful prototypes that could really be called "microchips" as we know them). And were in development since the late 40s, IIRC. And even in the 70s, they were still impressive. I don't know much about early Iron Man (or, to be fair, later Iron Man either), but this seems like more of a case of art imitating life.

The "miniaturized transistors" were what made the armor work: They allowed him to make the individual component small enough that you could fit a human being in the armor without the armor being too big to walk around or function as a people.

It's also what allowed him to build a "super electromagnet" to keep the shrapnel in his chest out of his heart but keep it small enough to wear under his clothes.

Then microchips that were basically identical in function to Tony's "miniature transistors" became widely available and Tony needed a new gimmick becuase it's not impressive for a super genius' claim to fame to be a thing that exists in real life.

I think there was some lead time since, obviously, it takes more than 60s era Microchips to make even the clunky, bulky Iron Man Model 1, but since comics run on compressed time eventually Tony inventing them becomes a bit silly.

[Fyraltari]

That's hilarious! Was someone running around giving IQ tests to everyone? Like Doctor Doom and all the other villains would actually take that seriously?

Standard remainders that we no reason to think IQ tests actually measure intelligence in any real way (and that the man who created the first version of them wasn't trying to do that) and that even if they did, the math behind them would make them utterly unreliable at the extremes of the scale. So no ranking the top ten smartasses of the world.

[Willie the Duck]

Standard remainders that we no reason to think IQ tests actually measure intelligence in any real way (and that the man who created the first version of them wasn't trying to do that) and that even if they did, the math behind them would make them utterly unreliable at the extremes of the scale. So no ranking the top ten smartasses of the world.

I completely agree with the standard reminder. However, I'm inclined to cut the writers some slack. As has been pointed out, these are also the writers that think that the number of PhDs you have is the measure of how impressive your intellect is (as opposed to, say, getting one PhD and then doing stuff in said field). It's all quick shorthands for being smart -- the stuff that impresses your grandma or your grandson. Also not too different from 'having mastered a dozen martial arts' (because, again, the number is the important part) that the other superheroes get.

[Peelee]

I completely agree with the standard reminder. However, I'm inclined to cut the writers some slack. As has been pointed out, these are also the writers that think that the number of PhDs you have is the measure of how impressive your intellect is (as opposed to, say, getting one PhD and then doing stuff in said field). It's all quick shorthands for being smart -- the stuff that impresses your grandma or your grandson. Also not too different from 'having mastered a dozen martial arts' (because, again, the number is the important part) that the other superheroes get.

It's like they never heard Bruce Lee talk about kicking.

[Tyndmyr]

That's hilarious! Was someone running around giving IQ tests to everyone? Like Doctor Doom and all the other villains would actually take that seriously?

Weirdly, Doom might actually do that. A chance to show up Richards with his intellect? Bust out the #2 pencil.

But yeah, most villains, probably not. And the idea of having a definitive ranking in order is certainly odd regardless. I don't know who the #7 smartest person is in real life, and I'm pretty sure nobody else does either. Even if they claim to, it'd basically be a wholly subjective thing that boiled down to what achievements they like.

[Peelee]

Weirdly, Doom might actually do that. A chance to show up Richards with his intellect? Bust out the #2 pencil.

But yeah, most villains, probably not. And the idea of having a definitive ranking in order is certainly odd regardless. I don't know who the #7 smartest person is in real life, and I'm pretty sure nobody else does either. Even if they claim to, it'd basically be a wholly subjective thing that boiled down to what achievements they like.

And the ones who might have legitimate claim to that title are also the ones very likely to reject any measurement or ranking system and completely spurious.

[Rater202]

It's not an IQ test per se, but going by Moon Girl, who backs up her claim of being th smartest girl in the world by citing th test she took, there is a test involved called the Banner Test. (Named after Dr. Robert Bruce Banner.)

However, considering that Lunella once brought a mutant T-Rex to fight a villain with the power to psionically control all dinosaurs, I have to question her claim.

Furthermore, Valeria Richards who also claims to be the smartest girl in the world(and is canonically both more intelligent and a better scientist and inventor than her father Reed) questions the tests' validity and dismisses it as the "Hulk Smash" test.

(Considering that Valeria has superhuman intelligence while Moon Girl is, other than her Inhuman Heritage, a normal pre-teen, I'm more inclined to believe that Valeria's claim than Lunella's)

[Psyren]

But the more real-life tech advances, the more implausible it is that Tony could master all of the skills needed to make that kind of tech singlehandedly.

Is it really "singlehandedly" if you have an AI doing the heavy lifting - quite literally in some cases?

His first feat (the Mark 1 and the car-battery-arc reactor) was singlehanded, but given that he built it in a cave out of scraps, that's still impressive despite being not too far removed from current gen tech. And even then he did actually have help (from Ho "don't waste your life" Yinsen - boy, he sure didn't!)

Everything he makes after that, the truly comic book science stuff, is with JARVIS' aid in his private industrial-grade 3D printer, which makes it perfectly plausible. Even figuring out time travel - which was furthermore based on Pym and Banner's research - was done with AI backup (Jocasta in that case).

[Rater202]

Is it really "singlehandedly" if you have an AI doing the heavy lifting - quite literally in some cases?

His first feat (the Mark 1 and the car-battery-arc reactor) was singlehanded, but given that he built it in a cave out of scraps, that's still impressive despite being not too far removed from current gen tech.

Everything he makes after that, the truly comic book science stuff, is with JARVIS' aid in his private industrial-grade 3D printer, which makes it perfectly plausible. Even figuring out time travel - which was furthermore based on Pym and Banner's research - was done with AI backup (Jocasta in that case).

That's the movie.

I'm talking about the comics.

In the comics, the various AI he uses are a very recent thing all things considered and he creates them himself from scratch. The AI at most builds the suits after he designs them.

The single most impressive thing one of Tony's AI has done is that when he provided Peter Parker, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, and Laura Kinny with copies of the Model 51 so they could fly into Mister Sinister's secret island laboratory without having to use a ship big enough to set off the sensors, the Iron Man Armors he gave them seemed to customize themselves to the wearer's themes and powers.

(Logan, who was dead at the time, disappeared from his grave. Back during the New Avengers days, Tony promised Logan that if Logan ever died for real that Tony would make sure no one experimented with Logan's body since he got enough of that crap in life and wanted to be able to rest in peace. Tony got the New Avengers back together to chase a lead and ran into Laura casing the same lead.)

Incidentally, in the comics, there is no JARVIS. This is an Edwin Jarvis, who used to be the Avengers butler and currently runs a support group for the loved ones of superheroes*, but he's just an ordinary flesh and blood human.

*Other members of the support group include Mary Jane Watson, Carlie Cooper, Ganke Lee, Willie Lumpkin, Foggy Nelson, Peggy Rae, and Wong... Though between hologram technology and a memory potion no-two members know each other's identities or specific details of shared stories for the sake of protecting the secret identies of their loved ones. The exceptions are Jarvis who maintains full transparency and Mary Jane and Carlie know about each other becuase Carlie was the one who told MJ about the group.

[Psyren]

I understand those elements are more germane to the comics than the movies - but when you're talking specifically about elements that are anachronistic to the time period where they were initially introduced, like Tony Stark inventing the microchip in the 1960s and how that wouldn't be a particularly impressive feat in 2008, understanding how the movies approached those anachronisms is important. And one way Favreau et al. did so, was to ramp up Tony's reliance on AI, which is the cutting-edge innovation of our time.

And it also solves the problem you noted, where modern Tony is much more of a scientific savant than he was originally. Yes, it's "unrealistic" for somebody who was originally just great at making machines to suddenly have doctorate level knowledge of theoretical physics, chemistry, engineering etc etc. - but designing an AI that could help him succeed in those fields and check all his homework is much more plausible.

[Rater202]

I understand those elements are more germane to the comics than the movies - but when you're talking specifically about elements that are anachronistic to the time period where they were initially introduced, like Tony Stark inventing the microchip in the 1960s and how that wouldn't be a particularly impressive feat in 2008, understanding how the movies approached those anachronisms is important. And one way Favreau et al. did so, was to ramp up Tony's reliance on AI, which is the cutting-edge innovation of our time.

And it also solves the problem you noted, where modern Tony is much more of a scientific savant than he was originally. Yes, it's "unrealistic" for somebody who was originally just great at making machines to suddenly have doctorate level knowledge of theoretical physics, chemistry, engineering etc etc. - but designing an AI that could help him succeed in those fields and check all his homework is much more plausible.

I mean, Tony in the Movie and Tony in the comics might as well be two completly differant characters. Their histories, personalities, skill sets, and relationships are different.

Citing Tony Stark of Earth-199999's methods of making tech when I thought I made it clear that I was talking about the Tony Stark of Earth-616 is a bit like talking about how Superman's powers work when talking about Wonderwoman.

They are not the same character or the same person.

[Psyren]

Again, well aware of that - but the chief problem the two mediums face (portraying Tony as one of the planet's premiere robotocists/engineers, if not the premiere, in a believable way) is the same.

[Peelee]

I mean, Tony in the Movie and Tony in the comics might as well be two completly differant characters. Their histories, personalities, skill sets, and relationships are different.

Citing Tony Stark of Earth-199999's methods of making tech when I thought I made it clear that I was talking about the Tony Stark of Earth-616 is a bit like talking about how Superman's powers work when talking about Wonderwoman.

They are not the same character or the same person.

How similar are Tony in the 2020s Comics and Tony in the 1060s Comics?

[Rater202]

How similar are Tony in the 2020s Comics and Tony in the 1060s Comics?

Keep in mind that the "Sliuding Scale Timeline" is the result of cosmic beings slowing people's aging and manipulating their memory.

The differences in Tony 616 in the 60s ad now can be explained as the results of 58 years of experience... Which included fusing with an alternate universe version of himself, having his mind wiped at least once, and eventually converting himself into an AI uploaded into a meat-robot in order to get out of being in a coma.

Spoiler

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The original Tony Stark was eventually revealed to have been a brainwashed Mole for Kang and was killed off and replaced with Teen-Tony, a teen genius version of Tony from an alternate reality. After most of the A-List heroes sacrificed themselves to defeat Onslaught, leaving only Spider-Man, The X-Men, and Franklin Richards, Franklin brought all the dead heroes back to life by putting their souls in a pocket dimension and having them live through a reimagined version of their adventures. BEcuase Franklin thought of the adult Iron Man when he thought of Iron MAn, however, he accidentally revived adult Tony and merged him with Teen Tony.

Ths combined Tony was then the Iron Man up until the aftermath of the Civil War. Tony was such a fascist asshat during and after Civil wAr that the only way MArvel could make fans accept him as a hero again was o have him do a thing that reset his memory to a period of time well before he signed up for the Pro Reg side. More recently, after Tony was beaten into a coma by Carol in Civil War II, he was eventually revived using a process that essentially rebuilt him from the ground up: Every cell in his body has a Stark Industrie's logo stamped on it and he's basically an AI in a meat-robot at this point.

Briefly, he was stripped of his human-rights and referred to as property and not the "real" Tony, who was declared dead, but a copy with the memories of the original but this was later reversed and at least interms of legalities he's considered to be Tony.

[Fyraltari]

Tony in the 1060s Comics?

Spoiler: Hark! So sayeth me: 'Tis me the Man of Iron!

Show

[Peelee]

Hark! So sayeth me: 'Tis me the Man of Iron!

OK now I really want medieval superhero comics.

[GrayDeath]

@ actual Topic:

I think it is going to be Darque, visually stunning, keep to its tone, have a little more "real" Enemies and be otherwise very very Meh.

Which will make it clearly "better" than the train wreck we got, but thats not a high bar to cross, is it?

[Psyren]

Keep in mind that the "Sliuding Scale Timeline" is the result of cosmic beings slowing people's aging and manipulating their memory.

The differences in Tony 616 in the 60s ad now can be explained as the results of 58 years of experience... Which included fusing with an alternate universe version of himself, having his mind wiped at least once, and eventually converting himself into an AI uploaded into a meat-robot in order to get out of being in a coma.

Spoiler

Show

The original Tony Stark was eventually revealed to have been a brainwashed Mole for Kang and was killed off and replaced with Teen-Tony, a teen genius version of Tony from an alternate reality. After most of the A-List heroes sacrificed themselves to defeat Onslaught, leaving only Spider-Man, The X-Men, and Franklin Richards, Franklin brought all the dead heroes back to life by putting their souls in a pocket dimension and having them live through a reimagined version of their adventures. BEcuase Franklin thought of the adult Iron Man when he thought of Iron MAn, however, he accidentally revived adult Tony and merged him with Teen Tony.

Ths combined Tony was then the Iron Man up until the aftermath of the Civil War. Tony was such a fascist asshat during and after Civil wAr that the only way MArvel could make fans accept him as a hero again was o have him do a thing that reset his memory to a period of time well before he signed up for the Pro Reg side. More recently, after Tony was beaten into a coma by Carol in Civil War II, he was eventually revived using a process that essentially rebuilt him from the ground up: Every cell in his body has a Stark Industrie's logo stamped on it and he's basically an AI in a meat-robot at this point.

Briefly, he was stripped of his human-rights and referred to as property and not the "real" Tony, who was declared dead, but a copy with the memories of the original but this was later reversed and at least interms of legalities he's considered to be Tony.

You know, reading this guff just makes me want a normal-ass reboot/retcon when the writers mess up. Not all this convoluted "everything that divided the fanbase totally happened but also it didn't, wibbly-wobbly!" craziness. Sometimes it feels like the comic writers just throw a dart at a board labelled "Wanda/Franklin Richards/X-Man/Sentry/Thanos/etc" when they realize they need to write themselves out of whatever corner a wacky author wrote them into, or redeem whichever character is still able to sell merch no matter what atrocities they committed. If you need them to be marketable, maybe don't have them commit atrocities in the first place?

OK now I really want medieval superhero comics.

Not quite but kinda close?

[Peelee]

You know, reading this guff just makes me want a normal-ass reboot/retcon when the writers mess up. Not all this convoluted "everything that divided the fanbase totally happened but also it didn't, wibbly-wobbly!" craziness. Sometimes it feels like the comic writers just throw a dart at a board labelled "Wanda/Franklin Richards/X-Man/Sentry/Thanos/etc" when they realize they need to write themselves out of whatever corner a wacky author wrote them into, or redeem whichever character is still able to sell merch no matter what atrocities they committed. If you need them to be marketable, maybe don't have them commit atrocities in the first place?

100% behind you here. Not a single word I don't wholeheartedly agree with.

Not quite but kinda close?

I'll take it!

For reals, that looks super cool.

[Mordar]

100% behind you here. Not a single word I don't wholeheartedly agree with.

I'll take it!

For reals, that looks super cool.

I really think I recall some other supers-in-history stories besides Spawn and a few like that...but can't immediately find them.

Anyone else recall? Mainstream supers in alternative time periods?

- M

[Psyren]

I really think I recall some other supers-in-history stories besides Spawn and a few like that...but can't immediately find them.

Anyone else recall? Mainstream supers in alternative time periods?

- M

Batman's done a few of these I think. There was Batman Ninja which had him in... Feudal Japan? And Batman Leatherwing which had him as a privateer during the Golden Age of Piracy. I can't comment on the quality of these, mind you.

[Rater202]

I really think I recall some other supers-in-history stories besides Spawn and a few like that...but can't immediately find them.

Anyone else recall? Mainstream supers in alternative time periods?

- M

Jason Aaron's Avengers has periodic flash-backs to The "Avengers 1,000,000 BC" Young Odin, Aggomoto, the First Star Brand, The First Iron Fist, The First Black Panther, The First Ghost Rider, and The Phoenix Force.

However, there are some... Continuity issues with some of these stories. Ghost and Fan Fei's origin stories are pretty good. Firehair's origin story plays the "raised by wolves" things far too straight, implies that mutants and anatomically modern humans existed at times when they didn't, and Jason Aaron seems to imply that Homophobia existed in Cave Man times.

Also, the entire run is just full of "good ideas" bad execution and continuity issues. And Aaron seems to be under the impression that the Phoenix is a knock-off Galactus instead of a cosmic embodiment of both life and destruction as symbolized by fire.

[Sapphire Guard]

I turned off Batman Ninja whem

Spoiler

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the mecha battles started.

[Dire_Flumph]

There was Batman Ninja which had him in... Feudal Japan? And Batman Leatherwing which had him as a privateer during the Golden Age of Piracy.

Someone please tell me these two have fought each other at some point.

[Imbalance]

Medieval Spawn is good for having more Gaiman than McFarlane.

Gotham by Gaslight is a typical top-of-the-list entry for a lot of folks, though more Victorian than dark age. I also seem to recall a very fairy tale story with DC characters, but I'm not sure I read it. I know the Queen of Fables got a HeroClix, is all.

Marvel brought Gaiman's Angela over from Image a little while ago just in time for some Shakespeare fantasy setting trip they did as a crossover. Those are fun.

1602 was already mentioned, but I haven't read it. There are others that escape me at the moment, but basically the Elseworlds and What If? imprints exist to tell these kinds of superfish out of water tales.

[Dragonus45]

Also, the entire run is just full of "good ideas" bad execution and continuity issues. And Aaron seems to be under the impression that the Phoenix is a knock-off Galactus instead of a cosmic embodiment of both life and destruction as symbolized by fire.

Well, that sounds like Jason Aaron. Nifty ideas with no care for continuity, common sense, or potentially execution. I’m happy I skipped that run now.

[Tyrant]

I haven't read it but there an older story (issues 149-150 of Invincible Iron Man apparently) with Iron Man and Doom in King Arthur's time. It's called Doomquest. It has a couple sequels, is referenced in another time travel story, and it has a What If? with an alternate ending.

[Tyndmyr]

You know, reading this guff just makes me want a normal-ass reboot/retcon when the writers mess up. Not all this convoluted "everything that divided the fanbase totally happened but also it didn't, wibbly-wobbly!" craziness. Sometimes it feels like the comic writers just throw a dart at a board labelled "Wanda/Franklin Richards/X-Man/Sentry/Thanos/etc" when they realize they need to write themselves out of whatever corner a wacky author wrote them into, or redeem whichever character is still able to sell merch no matter what atrocities they committed. If you need them to be marketable, maybe don't have them commit atrocities in the first place?

I'm with you on this. Routine giant resets just feel obnoxious after a bit, and makes all character development feel meaningless.

Comics are odd. I enjoy them sometimes, but it's hard to unironically enjoy much of the content itself. Even the biggest comic fans have to sometimes just shrug and acknowledge that the genre is wildly mixed, and the length of many runs sort of destroys even the broadest levels of consistency.

One hopes that more folks would take a page from the MCU, where there's at least some broad overarching vision regarding how things fit together. Not that the MCU is perfect, mind you, but there's at least an attempt there.

[Peelee]

I'm with you on this. Routine giant resets just feel obnoxious after a bit, and makes all character development feel meaningless.

Comics are odd. I enjoy them sometimes, but it's hard to unironically enjoy much of the content itself. Even the biggest comic fans have to sometimes just shrug and acknowledge that the genre is wildly mixed, and the length of many runs sort of destroys even the broadest levels of consistency.

One hopes that more folks would take a page from the MCU, where there's at least some broad overarching vision regarding how things fit together. Not that the MCU is perfect, mind you, but there's at least an attempt there.

Until the MCU continues to the point that it has the same system of patchwork and fixes and resets and alternate worlds as the comics. Don't confuse newer with better.

[Tyndmyr]

Until the MCU continues to the point that it has the same system of patchwork and fixes and resets and alternate worlds as the comics. Don't confuse newer with better.

That does seem likely. But still, we're far past the usual point of rebooting or horribly contrived sequels for most film series.

There are very few franchises that manage four solid films without one of the above happening. By any reasonable film standard, the MCU's doing quite well.