The Snyder Cut

[Rater202]

The white and black peppered moths were the same level off strength/fastness/toughness.

You're overly focused on specific examples. All other things equal, peppered moth that is better able to flee from a predator(faster) or fight them off(stronger/tougher) is more fit than one who is not so good at escaping or fighting off predators.

The average mutant is better able to handle dangerous situations than the average human.

If you wanna talk specific, in the last In-Universe Month, New York City has been 1: Invaded by a mixed army of Frost Giants, Dark Elves, Trolls, Fire Demons, War Angels, Dragons, and mercenaries hired by the Roxxon Energy Corporation(CEO Dario Ager has a fetish for screwing over his fellow humans); Be subject to a murder spree by Carnage, who used offshoots of his Symbiote to take over every Homeless person in NYC and the entire inmate population of The Ravencroft Asylum for the Criminally Insane and use them as weapons, served as a battleground in the conflict between the Skrull-Kree Alliance and the Coati, and been invaded by Knull the King in Black and his army of Symbiote dragons.

Being able to run slightly faster or being less likely to die from being stabbed is evolutionarily advantageous in this world.

[Peelee]

You're overly focused on specific examples. All other things equal, peppered moth that is better able to flee from a predator(faster) or fight them off(stronger/tougher) is more fit than one who is not so good at escaping or fighting off predators.

All other things are equal in the peppered moth scenario. The moths were the same species with the same strengths and the same speed and the same toughness. The one that was better able to be camouflaged in its environment was the one more able to fend off predators.

If you want another example, humans are the dominant form of life on the planet and are the ultimate apex predator. We are not the fastest, nor the strongest, nor the toughest. We are the smartest. It's more than a bit odd that you're trying to tell me that I'm overly focused on specific examples when all you're focused on is strength, speed, and toughness, when a vast amount of factors play into Darwinian fitness (as the peppered moth story was intended to show).

The average mutant is better able to handle dangerous situations than the average human.

And in the Marvel universe, they are better able to live in New York City*, but the people in Mexico City or Delhi or Mumbai are perfectly fine just chugging along. It's the Power Rangers problem, the villains are only really attacking where the heroes are (save for the odd excursion to go steal the Great Pyramids or something). To the best of my knowledge, the world population isn't decreasing in the Marvel universe*. Nonmutants are getting along just fine. And, again, the mutants that I know of who have reproduced do not make up the majority, or even a significant minority, which by definition makes them less fit by Darwinian standards. I'm perfectly willing to extend the olive branch of "let's just call it the same level of fitness".

Well, unless you count the snap, but feel free to do so; I don't really think being a mutant makes one more fit to survive that.

*Imean, not really, since NYC still has roughly the same population regardless.

[Lord Raziere]

I think I have a way of helping this discussion:

Rater, whats the competence ratio of the X-Men compared to SHIELD, measured by their number of individual victories against anything in the marvel universe?

or to put it another way, which organization is more consistently shown to be victorious and help defend people from the threats surrounding them? because as I recall, SHIELD is pretty solidly about badass normals with no overt superpowers involved.

[Rater202]

And in the Marvel universe, they are better able to live in New York City*, but the people in Mexico City or Delhi or Mumbai are perfectly fine just chugging along.

Uh... No.

Mexico City almost got destroyed twice during the Coati invasion. Once when a ship tried to capture its entire population and grind them up to make fertilizer(which was foiled by Venom and Conan the Barbarian in Empyre: Savage Avengers) and ones when a Coati sorcerer brought a mountain to life to smash it, which was foiled by Captain America and a battalion of the United States Army that decided to go AWOL when the Colonol said "screw you" to Captain America's request that the US Army help other countries that were being attacked.

I think I have a way of helping this discussion:

Rater, whats the competence ratio of the X-Men compared to SHIELD, measured by their number of individual victories against anything in the marvel universe?

or to put it another way, which organization is more consistently shown to be victorious and help defend people from the threats surrounding them? because as I recall, SHIELD is pretty solidly about badass normals with no overt superpowers involved.

Tha'ts not really fair, considering that the X-Men are 5-20 guys and SHIELD is a Government Agency backed by both the United States Government and the United Nations while also being the public face of an order of protectors dating back to Ancient Egypt.

Though, all cards on the table, Nick Fury Sr and his inexplicably Samual L. Jackson resembling bastard son Nick Fury Jr. are superhumans—Nick Sr. Has peak human physical attributes and biological immortality due to decades of use of the Infinity Formula while Jr's body naturally produces the Infinity Formula in therapeutic doses due to Sr's long term use of it altering his DNA in a way that manifested in his sons.

And if you count the Ancient Order of the Shield and SHIELD as the same group, then Apocalypse is a founding member.

[Lord Raziere]

Though, all cards on the table, Nick Fury Sr and his inexplicably Samual L. Jackson resembling bastard son Nick Fury Jr. are superhumans—Nick Sr. Has peak human physical attributes and biological immortality due to decades of use of the Infinity Formula while Jr's body naturally produces the Infinity Formula in therapeutic doses due to Sr's long term use of it altering his DNA in a way that manifested in his sons.

And if you count the Ancient Order of the Shield and SHIELD as the same group, then Apocalypse is a founding member.

Wait what really? Darnit I thought that'd be the closest we'd get to having a way to compare how unpowered individuals and mutants deal in similar situations since we probably couldn't use anything else.

oh well.

[Peelee]

Uh... No.

Mexico City almost got destroyed twice during the Coati invasion. Once when a ship tried to capture its entire population and grind them up to make fertilizer(which was foiled by Venom and Conan the Barbarian in Empyre: Savage Avengers) and ones when a Coati sorcerer brought a mountain to life to smash it, which was foiled by Captain America and a battalion of the United States Army that decided to go AWOL when the Colonol said "screw you" to Captain America's request that the US Army help other countries that were being attacked.

That sounds like a long way of saying "Mexico City et al did not get destroyed and the people are just chugging along." So really... yes.

[Lord Raziere]

That sounds like a long way of saying "Mexico City et al did not get destroyed and the people are just chugging along." So really... yes.

I mean it was led by Captain America whose powers are engineered so.......technically thats human engineering, not evolution.

But I'm not really convinced by either of your arguments. there is no real Batman equivalent in Marvel to demonstrate if humans can stand against the supernatural, but neither are mutants alone in defending the world, with various other kinds of supers to help out. so really we can't say for certain if one or the other is succeeding more because its more likely a group effort of all them helping humanity- both powered and non- survive and isn't that whats really important?

[Rater202]

That sounds like a long way of saying "Mexico City et al did not get destroyed and the people are just chugging along." So really... yes.

Because a prodigy of combat with literally ten times the strength of the average member of his people, who in turn are noted to be unusually tough and strong, a shapeshifting parasitic alien with powers derived from the DNA of a Kree Soldier, Spider-Man, Deadpool, Wolverine, The Scorpion, Captain Marvel, Red Hulk, Groot, Drax the Destroyer, and Malekith the accursed, and an immortal war Veteran who is physically and mentally the best a human being can possibly go out of their way to make them not all die.

Without superhumans, Mexico city would not exist in the Marvel universe and that's just from one incident.

[Peelee]

Because

Whoah whoah, hold up there. We're discussing Darwinian fitness. The "why" is irrelevant - at best it's interesting trivia, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that one can continue to breed new generations. Steve doesn't become less fit just because Bob saved him from getting shot in a hold up.

Marvel's Mexico City is still full of ~22 million people who are surviving and reproducing. They are, thus, exactly as fit as everyone in Professor X's Super Cool School for People Who Shoot Lightning From Their Fingers And Stuff.

[Keltest]

Whoah whoah, hold up there. We're discussing Darwinian fitness. The "why" is irrelevant - at best it's interesting trivia, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that one can continue to breed new generations. Steve doesn't become less fit just because Bob saved him from getting shot in a hold up.

Marvel's Mexico City is still full of ~22 million people who are surviving and reproducing. They are, thus, exactly as fit as everyone in Professor X's Super Cool School for People Who Shoot Lightning From Their Fingers And Stuff.

Adding to this, the ability to use other creatures as defense in a survival trait in and of itself.

[Rater202]

Whoah whoah, hold up there. We're discussing Darwinian fitness. The "why" is irrelevant - at best it's interesting trivia, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that one can continue to breed new generations. Steve doesn't become less fit just because Bob saved him from getting shot in a hold up.

Marvel's Mexico City is still full of ~22 million people who are surviving and reproducing. They are, thus, exactly as fit as everyone in Professor X's Super Cool School for People Who Shoot Lightning From Their Fingers And Stuff.

Okay. let's try this on for size.

Humans can die.

Currently, Mutants can't.

Krakoa's ace in the hole, the resurrection protocols: combining the powers of Gold Balls(generation of large golden balls organic matter, which are essentially giant egg cells), Proteus(Using psionic energy to bend reality,) Elixir(nigh unlimited control of biological functions and life energy), Tempus(Time Manipulation) and Hope Summers(Copying, synchronizing, and enhancing the powers of other mutants) with Mr. sinister's reserves of Mutant DNA and backups of the minds of mutants stored in Cerebro, any mutant can be resurrected in a new body that free of injury, illness, and the ravages of old age. The body can even be tweaked slightly if you fill out a form for what you want prior to your death.

Currently, The Five are dealing with a backlog, mass resurrecting the victims of various mutant genocides, but people who get murdered or die in accidents following the formation of Krakoa get priority in the queue.

Currently, Mutants are immortal.

Meaning that they can always continue to reproduce.

Whose more fit now?

[Peelee]

Okay. let's try this on for size.

Humans can die.

Currently, Mutants can't.

Krakoa's ace in the hole, the resurrection protocols: combining the powers of Gold Balls(generation of large golden balls organic matter, which are essentially giant egg cells), Proteus(Using psionic energy to bend reality,) Elixir(nigh unlimited control of biological functions and life energy), Tempus(Time Manipulation) and Hope Summers(Copying, synchronizing, and enhancing the powers of other mutants) with Mr. sinister's reserves of Mutant DNA and backups of the minds of mutants stored in Cerebro, any mutant can be resurrected in a new body that free of injury, illness, and the ravages of old age. The body can even be tweaked slightly if you fill out a form for what you want prior to your death.

Currently, The Five are dealing with a backlog, mass resurrecting the victims of various mutant genocides, but people who get murdered or die in accidents following the formation of Krakoa get priority in the queue.

Currently, Mutants are immortal.

Meaning that they can always continue to reproduce.

Whose more fit now?

I am pressing X to doubt.

ETA: I'm not counting "There are almost never any consequences in the Marvel universe" as "characters are immortal."

[Lord Raziere]

Adding to this, the ability to use other creatures as defense in a survival trait in and of itself.

Yeah, "being innocent enough for superpowered version of your species to go forth and kill things for you" is technically a trait that contributing to their survival. If a very passive one.

[Rater202]

I am pressing X to doubt.

ETA: I'm not counting "There are almost never any consequences in the Marvel universe" as "characters are immortal."

...Okay, first of all that list is way out of date. Several of those characters have since been resurrected.

Second of all several of those characters aren't mutants.

Third of all, this isn't "there are no consequences." This is "in-universe the characters are explicitly immortal now due to the actions of certain characters."

It's a plot point in Hickman's X-Men that Mutants can't die under normal circumstances anymore.

[Peelee]

Actually, my previous reply wasn't even the best rebuttal. Mutants can continue to reproduce. So can nonmutants. So, again, still the same level of fitness.

...Okay, first of all that list is way out of date. Several of those characters have since been resurrected.

Second of all several of those characters aren't mutants.

First of all, "have died previously" means "not immortal".

Second of all, they don't need to all be. You claimed mutants are immortal. I just need one non-immortal mutant to prove you wrong. There are numerous non-immortal mutants. QED.

Third of all, this is pretty much irrelevant anyway; see above.

You want mutants to be better than nonmutants. That's fine. You refuse to accept that they are not better in a weirdly specific category that you unilaterally declared. That's also fine, I guess. You don't need to accept it. But you shouldn't expect to convince me of it since it is easily falsifiable.

[Rater202]

Actually, my previous reply wasn't even the best rebuttal. Mutants can continue to reproduce. So can nonmutants. So, again, still the same level of fitness.

Humans can die before they're old enough to reproduce.

Mutants can't. Mutant kid dies, they get resurrected in a new healthy body.

Second of all, they don't need to all be. You claimed mutants are immortal. I just need one non-immortal mutant to prove you wrong. There are numerous non-immortal mutants. QED.

Every single one of those deaths predates mutants, as a species, being granted immortality, so no, that doesn't really disprove anything.

The closest thing to dying that can happen to Mutants, as of House of X #1, is your backup getting corrupted so you get resurrected as a blank slate instead of with your memories and personality intact and that only happens if you die in Otherworld(a Magical Dimension that exists in the space in between universes.)

[Peelee]

Humans can die before they're old enough to reproduce.

Mutants can't. Mutant kid dies, they get resurrected in a new healthy body.

And with 6 billion humans (I'm assuming one billion mutants, because hey, why not be generous), the odds that humans will stop reproducing is somewhere close to zero. So, again, same level of fitness. This should not be a difficult concept.

[Keltest]

Humans can die before they're old enough to reproduce.

Mutants can't. Mutant kid dies, they get resurrected in a new healthy body.

A: being able to be resurrected is not immortality. It in fact is mutually exclusive with immortality.

B: Mutants are not intrinsically able to be resurrected any more than humans are. Its an artificial state that has to be actively invoked on them, not one inherent to their state as mutants. Marvel aside, mutants will not automatically resurrect on their death, it has to be invoked.

[Rynjin]

A: being able to be resurrected is not immortality. It in fact is mutually exclusive with immortality.

There are many types of immortality. Resurrective Immortality is one of them. Hell, the closest thing we've discovered IRL to an immortal creature (that one jellyfish, I dunno the name of) has this kind of immortality, so it's technically the most realistic kind.

[Peelee]

There are many types of immortality. Resurrective Immortality is one of them. Hell, the closest thing we've discovered IRL to an immortal creature (that one jellyfish, I dunno the name of) has this kind of immortality, so it's technically the most realistic kind.

In this case, though, the mutants are only immortal until the next plot point where suddenly they're not anymore and have lost the ability to resurrect. It's ongoing comics, the pendulum will swing back at some point.

[Rater202]

And with 6 billion humans (I'm assuming one billion mutants, because hey, why not be generous), the odds that humans will stop reproducing is somewhere close to zero. So, again, same level of fitness. This should not be a difficult concept.

With your statistic, 1/6th successful reproductions among the human population produce a mutant instead of a human.

Going with what the comics say, it's much lower than that... But the number of mutants born to human parents, as a percentage of the overall birthrate world wide, goes up every year to the point that 20 in-universe years from now, between the births of new first-generation mutants, the births of second and third generation mutants, and the fact that mutants can't permanently die anymore if things remain as they are now Homo s superior will replace Homo s sapiens as the majority of the "human" population of earth.

Not becuase of race wars or genocides of mutants stamping out the humans, but becuase humans give birth to mutants. Mutants are the natural next step in human evolution.

Honestly, the entire conflict between mutants and certain groups of humans boils down to people being pissed off that their children, grandchildren, or great grand children might be different from themselves.

[Peelee]

With your statistic, 1/6th successful reproductions among the human population produce a mutant instead of a human.

On the one hand, I'd love to challenge the logic behind this assertion. On the other hand, going with this logic, 0 mutants ever produce mutant offspring (or mutants just never reproduce. Six in one), so under this argument mutants are specifically unfit, since they reproduce no mutants whatsoever.

Now, for realtalk, I was arbitrarily inflating the number of mutants because it doesn't matter either way and I wanted to be generous in the opposition's favor.

ETA: Also massive misunderstanding in how evolution works with "mutants are the next step in human evolution".

[Keltest]

With your statistic, 1/6th successful reproductions among the human population produce a mutant instead of a human.

Going with what the comics say, it's much lower than that... But the number of mutants born to human parents, as a percentage of the overall birthrate world wide, goes up every year to the point that 20 in-universe years from now, between the births of new first-generation mutants, the births of second and third generation mutants, and the fact that mutants can't permanently die anymore if things remain as they are now Homo s superior will replace Homo s sapiens as the majority of the "human" population of earth.

Not becuase of race wars or genocides of mutants stamping out the humans, but becuase humans give birth to mutants. Mutants are the natural next step in human evolution.

Honestly, the entire conflict between mutants and certain groups of humans boils down to people being pissed off that their children, grandchildren, or great grand children might be different from themselves.

And also the fact that they might, like, perpetually set the house on fire or burn down the city in a nuclear explosion or something. While their methods border on the appalling most of the time, the idea that mutants are just like ordinary humans is wrong.

Also, the potential to destroy your immediate environment and all the resources sounds like a negative survival trait, in general, even if not all mutants have that trait.

[Lord Raziere]

...I've been trying to go through various marvel parallel universes to see if any can be used to help with this....

but the closest I've found so far is Earth-26 which is about Reed Richards making a device to shut off superpowers so that the super registration act doesn't need to be used (oh yes, that old chestnut, does the Marvel Universe even have that Act anymore? I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't stick) but not detailing about what happened to Earth-26 afterwards. hm. it apparently still exists but an entire parallel universe still existing cosmically says nothing about humanity's own status. is there any further information on Earth-26?

[Peelee]

does the Marvel Universe even have that Act anymore? I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't stick

Yes, but all superheroes incorporated themselves in foreign countries and and thus are not bound by at Act.

[Rater202]

The Superhuman Registration Act was repealed after Norman Osborn, as head of HAMMER, illegally invaded Asgard and got his ass kicked for it.

On the one hand, I'd love to challenge the logic behind this assertion. On the other hand, going with this logic, 0 mutants ever produce mutant offspring (or mutants just never reproduce. Six in one), so under this argument mutants are specifically unfit, since they reproduce no mutants whatsoever.

Now, for real-talk, I was arbitrarily inflating the number of mutants because it doesn't matter either way and I wanted to be generous in the opposition's favor.

The majority of mutants are first-generation mutants.

Wolverine has a couple of kids, Siryn is Banshee's daughter, Polaris is Magnet's daughter, Apocalypse has thousands of descendants, but most mutants are first generation.

Granted, that's partly because of all the genocides.

And also the fact that they might, like, perpetually set the house on fire or burn down the city in a nuclear explosion or something. While their methods border on the appalling most of the time, the idea that mutants are just like ordinary humans is wrong.

Also, the potential to destroy your immediate environment and all the resources sounds like a negative survival trait, in general, even if not all mutants have that trait.

that pretty much never happens.

In the 17 thousand years that mutants have been confirmed to exist, there is exactly one case of a man accidentally destroying his immediate surroundings before getting his powers under full control a moment later,and that was the exact moment his powers activated.

Unless you're talking about the Ultimate Universe, where Mutants are a failed attempt to recreate the Super Soldier Serum and have no built-in fail-safes the way main universe mutants do, but that's the universe where the Hulk is a cannibal, Tony Stark's intelligence is because he has a special form of nerve cancer, and Captain America is a jingoistic asshat so...

[Keltest]

that pretty much never happens.

In the 17 thousand years that mutants have been confirmed to exist, there is exactly one case of a man accidentally destroying his immediate surroundings before getting his powers under full control a moment later,and that was the exact moment his powers activated.

Unless you're talking about the Ultimate Universe, where Mutants are a failed attempt to recreate the Super Soldier Serum and have no built-in fail-safes the way main universe mutants do, but that's the universe where the Hulk is a cannibal, Tony Stark's intelligence is because he has a special form of nerve cancer, and Captain America is a jingoistic asshat so...

Isnt the whole gimmick of Cyclops that he cant open his eyes without destroying whatever is in front of his face unless he has special glasses or a visor? That doesnt seem like a power with a "built-in fail-safe" to me.

[Peelee]

The majority of mutants are first-generation mutants.

Wolverine has a couple of kids, Siryn is Banshee's daughter, Polaris is Magnet's daughter, Apocalypse has thousands of descendants, but most mutants are first generation.

Granted, that's partly because of all the genocides.

Ya know, something about arguing that mutants are more fit than nonmutants because they are immortal, yet the vast majority of mutants are first generation due to multiple genocides.... you do get where I'm going with this, right?

Spoiler: Where I'm going

Show

To bed.

[Rater202]

Isnt the whole gimmick of Cyclops that he cant open his eyes without destroying whatever is in front of his face unless he has special glasses or a visor? That doesnt seem like a power with a "built-in fail-safe" to me.

That's not an inherent part of Scott's power. His eye beams don't turn off becuase he landed on his head when he jumped out of a plane.

They leave that part out of the movie.

Ya know, something about arguing that mutants are more fit than nonmutants because they are immortal, yet the vast majority of mutants are first generation due to multiple genocides.... you do get where I'm going with this, right?

Spoiler: Where I'm going

Show

To bed.

Again, the genocides pre-date the bestowal of immortality. It's not exactly a valid point to cite them as counterevidence.

And the victims of the genocide are being resurrected en mass, so...

Actually, the Tie-In for Empyre has a humorous bit: Scarlet Witch tries to atone for M-Day by resurrecting all of the dead mutants on Genosha, only to accidentally bring them back as Zombies(Doctor Strange helps her fix it so that they'll be put back to rest in 30 days, unfortunately, the Coati decided to use Genosha as a staging ground leading to the X-Men's involvement int he conflict.)

Explodey Boy, a mutant with the power to generate explosions centered on himself, is introduced at this time as one of the Zombies...

...Except Explodey Boy had already been resurrected on Krakoa.

There's a scene of the living Explodey Boy and the Zombie one sitting down, talking and deciding philosophically which one of them is the "real" one.

[The Glyphstone]

As far as this Krakoa-based immortality, is any part of it besides Hope Summers' abilities actually Mutant-exclusive? Obviously Krakoa (if my 30 seconds of Google-based research was correct) is going to choose to resurrect mutants first/exclusively, but everything else in the list seems like, in theory, it could be used to resurrect ordinary humans if you had a copy of their DNA and mind stored appropriately. I'm not sure arguing that exclusive access to a resource with non-exclusive compatibility confers innate evolutionary superiority.