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Thread: The Snyder Cut
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2021-03-31, 09:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
While I don't like the Snyderverse, it's probably better than whatever J.J. Abrams has in stock for the DCU. I really wish Hollywood would stop giving beloved franchises for that hack to ruin...
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2021-03-31, 10:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
I mean they're both hacks that ruin things, its just that between a grim and gritty hack and a bright and hopeful hack, Hollywood's going to choose the more positive one every time, because no matter how much people say the current age of media is "dark and edgy", positivity and happy endings are what sell.
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2021-03-31, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Abrams is working on, like, a dozen different announced projects which haven't materialized in any way. He may or may not be an executive producer on Justice League DarK (which is kind of an ironic name given Snyder's aesthetic, but whatever) but I don't believe he's running the DC cinematic universe in any way.
Also, I wouldn't call either Snyder or Abrams hacks. At least if were going be actual definitions and not "creator I don't like". They're definitely prone to creating polarizing material, certainly, but they're not indistinct and artless in their approach to cinema/television nor do they take no creative risks in their career. There are a lot of directors/producers who just make what the studio wants from them with no concern for their own creative vision so they cash a quick check, but I don't see that in either of these individuals. Snyder is pretty much the direct opposite of that and Abrams has a number of "these are my creative inspirations and this is my meta-interpretation/response to that" kinds of projects where you can heavily see his hand in them.Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2021-03-31 at 10:43 PM.
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2021-03-31, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
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2021-04-01, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
No no, they've each got their own unique and special way of failing to understand how to convey story in film.
Zack Snyder directs "moments", individual scenes or fragments of scenes which sit in isolation but have no coherent thread between them to convey a story (also he has loads of libertarian/objectivist and religious baggage which we will not go into here).
JJ Abrams constructs "mystery boxes" which have no inherent function or satisfying payoff within the narrative, and exist solely to be talked about by people on the internet (also he has loads of fanboy baggage).
Make no mistake, JJ Abrams is going to make unsatisfying DC movies, like he has made unsatisfying Star Trek and Star Wars movies and an unsatsifying conclusion to Lost, but ones that will feel more fannish to at least some version of the source material.
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2021-04-01, 06:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Yeah thats what I meant, they're so extra about their individual style and eccentricities that it impacts their effectiveness because they're trying too hard, rather than learning to have a good foundation and making their sure their style is just a little flourish on top of something already done well.
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2021-04-01, 06:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
Re: The Snyder Cut
While I won't defend Abram's directorial skills that much - Super 8 was probably the most enjoyable in my opinion - he has mostly functioned well as a producer, which is generally what he does.
Of what I've seen - Felicity, Fringe, (some of) Alias, Westworld, Lovecraft Country, Person of Interest, Cloverfield and 10 Cloverfield Lane, Overlord, several Mission Impossibles - some of my more enjoyable experiences particularly within small-screen genre works have been Bad Robot-related.
Whereas Snyder's work has at best elicited an "that's visually different" from me, and his dream is apparently to adapt the The Fountainhead. So, if I'm being honest I'm not really invested in his creative future all that much.
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2021-04-01, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
I enjoyed Westworld Season one quite a lot. Season two kinda didn't know where to go. I never finished season three.
Cloverfield was fun until I found out the monster was a tiltawhirl.
Lovecraft Country started strong, and just became kind of a mess.
He's got a theme here. Decent start, dodgy progression. Honestly, same for Super 8. The kids doin' there thing initially was great. Charming little story.
Whereas Snyder's work has at best elicited an "that's visually different" from me, and his dream is apparently to adapt the The Fountainhead. So, if I'm being honest I'm not really invested in his creative future all that much.
I think a significant bit of trouble is the amount of creative control, credit, etc given to directors. Not that direction doesn't matter...it does. But story is no less important. And yet, screenwriting is rarely given anything like that level of control, unless the director is writing their own script.
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2021-04-01, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
The whole "Mystery Box" philosophy is precisely what makes Abrams a hack.
It's a cheap "trick" to make the story seem well-written and him seem creative... But it ultimately fails to go anywhere or create anything satisfying because in the end, it's still just a trick... And it can't replace actual quality writing and directing.
So what can I do? I don't like the Snyderverse and I despise Abrams' "Mystery Boxes".
I guess I'll just add the DCU to the list of formely beloved franchises in which I no longer have any interest... There's still some space next to SW, ST and Marvel.Last edited by Lemmy; 2021-04-01 at 05:11 PM.
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2021-04-02, 03:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-02, 03:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
I mean there is more recent animated stuff. Batman Brave and the Bold, Batman/Superman Public Enemies, Superman Vs. the Elite which is basically "Whats so funny about truth, justice and the american way?" animated, things like that. animated universe didn't stop at JLU and Batman Beyond y'know.
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2021-04-02, 04:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Of course, there's always old stuff that I'll love my whole life...
The one silver lining there is to the way beloved franchises are going downhill under control of our corporate overlods, is that there's enough stuff out there to last me a lifetime even if nothing good is produced ever again.Homebrew Stuff:- Lemmy's Custom Weapon Generation System! - (D&D 3.X and PF)
Not all heroes wield scimitars, falchions and longbows! (I'm quite proud of this one ) - Lemmy's Homebrew Cauldron
You can find all my work here.
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2021-04-02, 05:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-02, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
While you may dislike the impact the "mystery box" has on long term viewing enjoyment of Abrams work, I will still claim that while you are caught up in the mystery he's trying to create on screen, it's very captivating and attention grabbing.
His problem is that he has problem sticking the landing, and sometimes wants to force a square box in a round hole. He is overreliant on this technique because he apparently believe he is a nothing director without a mystery. Which I feel is false the first Star Trek movie he did had no mystery box and was a fun rump that would rate in the top 40 percentile of Marvel Movies fun-o-scale
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2021-04-02, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to a Dark Nights: Metals animated movie.
Have each evil Batman voiced by an actor from a different Batman adaption if you can. Not nessesarily the actor for Batman themself, but... and the Batman Who Laughs needs to either be Kevin Conroy doing his best impression of Hamill's Joker or Mark Hamill doing his best impression of Conroy's Batman.
SpoilerUnless Hamill is willing to be the actual Joker again. He says he wants to stop doing it but he keeps coming back because people keep giving him cool scripts.
Dark Knights: Metals is the comic where Batman teams up with the Joker because The Batman Who Laughs is still "Batman" so Bruce decides "What's the last thing I'd ever do?"I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2021-04-02, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
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2021-04-02, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-02, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-02, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
And I would argue that nobody who knows about his mystery box style would be caught up in the mystery because, by his own admission, he doesn't have an answer because he thinks the answer doesn't matter. And if he himself doesn't bother to care about his own mystery, why should the viewer?
Sure, it might captivate someone the first couple of times, but it doesn't matter how nice the bridges seem at first when his entire MO is to burn them before you can even cross.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-04-02, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
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2021-04-02, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Someone who isn't aware of the trick of the mystery box will get swept by the story designed to be funneled toward the box. The box is not just the mystery, it's the entire setup you create to ha e people have an investment in the story they are watching with the (lying) promise of a payoff.
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2021-04-02, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
The problem is that the peak of being caught up in the mystery is not whilst you are watching the movie.
Remember that this style developed out of Lost. The point of it was to get people talking and speculating between episodes. And it's still evident in his movies. Peak Mystery Box is either in between instalments (Star Wars) in a franchise or in between promo material and the actual movie (Star Trek Into Darkness).
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2021-04-02, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-04-02, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
The way I see it, despite Abrams' claims of it being a narrative method, the mystery box is more a marketing method than a method for storytelling: the focus is on drawing in a large, long-term (in case of a series) audience interested in the mysteries that are being set up, while actually making those mysteries & solutions make narrative sense/serve a narrative purpose and fulfillment is secondary. It can be an excellent method if you're the type of writer to set up every single gear and piston perfectly before you put your story into motion, but I doubt that's the case for him.
The way he uses it now, he's practically a narrative con man: "Oh, you wanna know what's up with Rey/the island/etc.? I can give you that, but first I'll need 15 bucks for you to enter the theater. Trust me" *runs away before anyone finishes watching*
Is it a succesful method in terms of marketing? No doubt, considering Abrams' track record alone. Is it a good storytelling device? Tastes may differ, but "hell no" is my answer.Last edited by Taevyr; 2021-04-02 at 05:53 PM.
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2021-04-03, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
Yep.
To illustrate the failure of mystery box as narrative method, we need to compare Khans.
In The Wrath of Khan, the movie establishes personality and motivation for Khan, the emotion of the scene where it does so is all born out of the character of Khan "THIS is Ceti Alpha V!!", demonstrates a relationship between him and Kirk, and gives him a win over one of the series characters right at the start which means that whether the audience has seen Space Seed or not, they are on the same page emotionally as the characters when it comes to the movie's antagonist, and proceeds from there.
In Into Darkness we get this:
The movie treats the reveal of Khan's identity as massively important. It's delivered in close up, with the emotion in the scene on the "my name is Khan" and a laden pause right after it for it to sink all the way in.
And nobody else in the room bats and eye or has reason to do so because they don't give a **** what other names John Harrison might have, and never will. That's not their emotional investment. That information is only for the audience who are at least memetically aware of The Wrath of Khan. So the audience and the characters can never be emotionally in sync about the antagonist.
Abrams' mystery boxes are an active detriment to movies, because they make the audience and characters care about completely different things.
So get used to that in your DCU. Loads of fannish wank that some segments of the audience will eat right up, but which when you really look at it doesn't actually drive any emotional connection to the movie and just leaves it feeling unsatisfying for reasons that are hard to immediately articulate.
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2021-04-03, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-03, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
For the characters, sure, but for the audience it's not even that; without any context from seeing Space Seed or Wrath of Khan, this scene is equivalent to a prisoner in a modern cop drama saying "I am Peter Jameson." It's only worthwhile for anyone who knows who that is, and any newcomer would just think "OK, who's that?"
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-04-03, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-04, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
Re: The Snyder Cut
I just saw a news article about a deleted scene (Batman meets Joker) and I can’t get over the fact that there is a deleted scene when the movie is four hours long.
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2021-04-04, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Snyder Cut
+1. Fringe used the Abrams mystery box wonderfully, and delivered on it very well. The problem is not this style of creating intrigue, thrill and a sense of stakes---it can work, and when it does it's really good. The problem is that it needs to have a solid foundation beneath it, and sometimes this part is left more unattended in the script.
Last edited by Clertar; 2021-04-04 at 03:52 PM.
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