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Thread: The Snyder Cut

  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    I wonder how good an action movie could be if it had Snyder direct the combat/action scenes, but had a competent writer/director for story progression and character development.

    Sure... There'd probably be a few stylistic clashes, but it'd still end up better than going full Snyder or full [insert name of director that is bad at making action scenes].

    Spoiler: 300's narrator
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    I think 300 makes it pretty clear that the narrator is indeed unreliable. Not only he's trying to inspire troops, he tells stories about events he didn't witness and had no way of knowing and everything (including the narration itself) is over-the-top and clearly overly dramatic.

    Hell! The whole reason the narrator was told to go back was precisely because he was such a great story-teller. Exaggerating your valor and virtues while dehumanizing your opponent is a tactic almost as old as human conflict itself.

    Sure, the movie doesn't explicitly say "Oi, that's just... Like... Your opinion, man...", but it isn't exactly subtle about the narrator's (lack of) reliability
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    It can also backfire, like getting Trevorrow's Duel of the Fates cancelled and bringing back Abrams for Rise of Skywalker after the backlash and outrage against The Last Jedi.
    I don't know that the original plan of every film having a different director for each installment would have been any better. Really it should have been one creative vision from start to finish. So I can't really blame the internet for the controversy when it was the studio mandate (and over-correction from that mandate) that doomed the trilogy before it began.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I don't know that the original plan of every film having a different director for each installment would have been any better.
    That wouldn't have been a problem if there had been an overarching story planned from the start.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That wouldn't have been a problem if there had been an overarching story planned from the start.
    ...Which relies on a single creative vision, as I stated, yes.

    As an example - the MCU had myriad directors, but the overall direction and constraints they worked within were set by Kevin Feige.

    This is not to say you need every detail planned out in advance - the MCU definitely didn't! - but they knew which of the mulitple seeds they planted could either be nurtured or discarded, depending on what resonated with audiences and what didn't, and still keep that overarching story intact. For example, establishing the Quantum Realm and its effect on time was necessary, but something like Odin's Vault and its contents wasn't, and ended up being largely tossed.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...Which relies on a single creative vision, as I stated, yes.
    Not necessarily, the executives at Disney could have decided early on which three directors they wanted for each of the three movies then had all three sit together to work out the outline of the general story and then each of them could have done what they wanted with their movie as long as they respected the outline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I have no horse in this race, because I have not seen this movie and don't intend to, but I certainly share the bafflement that this exists and that people have apparently been clamoring for it. Does anyone seriously think a longer version of what sounds like a pretty mediocre movie is going to be amazing?
    This could have been written by me verbatim.
    It's a coincidence, but I just replied to you in the "Favourite Western movie" thread citing Sergio Leone, and tangentially his non-western movie "Once upon a time in America" as well. If you google it, you can see how the American cut was a commercial and critical flop, while the European cut is often regarded as one of the best movies ever made.
    So a different cut making all the difference? I guess it's rare, but it happens.
    Last edited by Jan Mattys; 2021-02-16 at 01:52 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Mattys View Post
    It's a coincidence, but I just replied to you in the "Favourite Western movie" thread citing Sergio Leone, and tangentially his non-western movie "Once upon a time in America" as well. If you google it, you can see how the American cut was a commercial and critical flop, while the European cut is often regarded as one of the best movies ever made.
    So a different cut making all the difference? I guess it's rare, but it happens.
    Kingdom of Heaven also might count. A thoroughly labored mess of a movie on initial release with the director's cut adding back in the end of one of the principle character's arc, and more details as to why everyone's behaving as they do.

    But the difference here to JL is, Ridley Scott was trying to send a message and show mock tangled web of politics to explore that message* that were cut for time. Which made the movie without it feel a bloated confusing mess.

    JL doesn't really try to explore heady topics nor does it really have a particularly complicated plot. It was just a mess of bashing together a group of famous comicbook events.

    *Even if the message and politics of the movie are not much related to the actual period displayed. But that's here nor there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Depends on what you like? The consensus on these boards is thor ragnarok and Star Wars: The Last Jedi were great and I didn't enjoy either of those. I also liked Batman V Superman which this board mostly disliked.
    Dunno. Most of us enjoy Ragnarok, but we of course concede that it's very different in style from the first two Thor films. I can certainly see that as jarring to a fan of the earlier films.

    And I personally wasn't a big fan of TLJ. The whole new trilogy is a disjointed mess. Yeah, maybe a lot of that is on the first two films for bungling all the setup, but if you're gonna bring back Palpatine, I feel like maybe you should at least do that in a movie, not in Fortnite.

    Justice League is...not great. The bad guy is generic, the plot is kind of not amazing, and there's waaaay too much waiting for Superman. None of those problems are likely to be solved by the inclusion of more material. Yeah, maybe some of that might be appreciated by hardcore DC fans, but it's niche at best. I don't see it significantly altering the film's quality.

    It's possible I may see it anyways. There's a severe lack of movies coming out at present.

    Snyder is the master of the mini-movie in a single scene. Watchman uses this repeatedly, Sucker Punch uses it initially, and even the otherwise terrible BvS uses it well to very briefly go over Bruce's origin story. Good thing, too, because none of us need another long explanation of how he became batman. It's the long form where he drags.

    So, a supersized film is, uh, not promising. It just doesn't play to the thing he's good at. It'd be like going to see a Tarantino film with no dialogue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    So, a supersized film is, uh, not promising. It just doesn't play to the thing he's good at. It'd be like going to see a Tarantino film with no dialogue.
    I'm quite on the fence on this one. I don't usually watch director's cuts or extended cuts of films that I didn't like to begin with. I would probably prefer to invest that movie time into rewatching The Deluge, for example

    I guess I'll wait for the reaction. There will Youtube movie critic videos at some point going over the modifications in 1/10 of the duration anyways.
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    On 300: I accept that Dilios is intended as an unreliable narrator but that only goes so far. Film is a visual medium and what's being shown on screen matters. What 300 gives us is an hour and a half of non-white-stereotype greatest hits being roundly thrashed by manly white men, and that's without getting into the stuff to do with sexuality and (arguably) ableism; that's what we see, that's what's memorable, that's what's on all the posters, that's the message people take away from it.

    Yes, the Dilios narration benefits from "othering" the Persians and that makes sense in that context. But the driving narrative of the film isn't pumping up the troops for Plataea: that's a framing device for the Thermopylae story. The narration is never questioned, even when it appears preposterous. And even taking the unreliable narration as read, you still have to ask the Doylian question as to why it was decided to tell the story in that way in the first place.

    So I don't think unreliable narration gets it off the hook: arguably, it's a fig leaf to justify what could otherwise have been one of the most racist mainstream films of the 21st century.

    Now, I will admit that when I first saw it, I too went "oh well this isn't really a true story; it's been mythologised since the battle was fought" (ignoring that it was promoted as at least mostly a true story) and also excused it with the unreliable narrator angle, and thought the contemporary complaints about racism were overdoing it. But that was 2007 and what was easy to ignore then isn't so easy to ignore now in hindsight. I think I was also guilty of not wanting to examine it too closely because I just didn't want to think about it. When I came to rewatch the movie a few years later, I found it problematic.

    Arguably, Snyder's superficiality counts in his favour there. In Watchmen, he did a pretty decent job of faithfully transposing page to screen in a visual sense, indeed, revelling in the imagery and building on it, while ignoring the subtext and thereby missing the point. I can therefore entirely believe that he did the same with 300, making the Persians as monstrous and weird, and the Spartans as Mighty Whitey, as he could, without ever realising that was what he was doing. Questions still have to be asked, but principally of Miller (who produced the film as well as the comic).

    But if I let Snyder off the hook for that, I can't really give him any credit for the stuff he did well either, and basically have to discard his directorial contribution altogether. So from a CV perspective, if I take that view, 300 basically doesn't count, and since I would, despite all the above, say it was his second-best film, that doesn't say a lot for his actual ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Mattys View Post
    It's a coincidence, but I just replied to you in the "Favourite Western movie" thread citing Sergio Leone, and tangentially his non-western movie "Once upon a time in America" as well. If you google it, you can see how the American cut was a commercial and critical flop, while the European cut is often regarded as one of the best movies ever made.
    So a different cut making all the difference? I guess it's rare, but it happens.
    There are a few examples around. The most famous one is probably Blade Runner, where the theatrical cut is hated and the director's cut adored. There's also Star Wars: the original (unreleased) cut was panned by almost everyone who saw it, and Lucas re-edited it extensively before release - it went on to do ok.
    Last edited by Aedilred; 2021-02-16 at 09:18 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Not necessarily, the executives at Disney could have decided early on which three directors they wanted for each of the three movies then had all three sit together to work out the outline of the general story and then each of them could have done what they wanted with their movie as long as they respected the outline.
    Yeah, I don't see that working any better, sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I have no horse in this race, because I have not seen this movie and don't intend to, but I certainly share the bafflement that this exists and that people have apparently been clamoring for it. Does anyone seriously think a longer version of what sounds like a pretty mediocre movie is going to be amazing?
    Nonsense, I'm sure when it comes out it will slay the jabberwocky, save narnia and find a pot of a gold at the end of the rainbow.

    Ditto for me, this whole "Snyder cut" thing really sounds fairy tale-ish to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post


    There are a few examples around. The most famous one is probably Blade Runner, where the theatrical cut is hated and the director's cut adored. There's also Star Wars: the original (unreleased) cut was panned by almost everyone who saw it, and Lucas re-edited it extensively before release - it went on to do ok.
    I'm not sure if that would count as an example of that, or of the opposite: the original festival release of Outlaw King was quite panned, and the director himself saw how flawed it was. He trimmed a lot of runtime for the Netflix release, and that one was considered a very good movie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    if you're gonna bring back Palpatine, I feel like maybe you should at least do that in a movie, not in Fortnite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    This is why you don't work in Hollywood.
    And if Fortnite is a requirement, I never will!

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    Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
    And if Fortnite is a requirement, I never will!
    Could someone please explain the Fortnite joke? I don't play a lot of video games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Could someone please explain the Fortnite joke? I don't play a lot of video games.
    Apparently for some reason they put Palpatine into Fortnite as a promotional/advertisement stunt. To this day, no one knows why.
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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    All I'll say is that there is a part of my brain that is very satisfied to see Snyder getting a chance to finish something he started more on his own terms. Especially after the situation that lead to him leaving in the first place. I don't particularly expect what comes out the other end here to be good though. Fascinating? Probably, most of his work is kind of fascinating even, or especially, when it's bad.
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    Not sure why people are so resistant to this. The worst that can happen is it's not a great film.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    And if Fortnite is a requirement, I never will!
    Id like to move away from making it a requirement. Tyndmyr for President of Hollywood, I say!
    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Could someone please explain the Fortnite joke? I don't play a lot of video games.
    The opening crawl of TROS talked about how Palpatine returned. I legit thought I had missed something in the previous movies in the trilogy upon reading that, despite how often I watched them. Apparently, the news was first broken in a Star Wars event of Fortnite, during which you could hear the galaxy-wide magic broadcast of Palpatine claiming he was back and would doom everything, revealing everything for no reason despite his entire life dedicated to hiding in secrecy until he was ready to pull the trigger.

    It was, in every possible sense, a ****ing horrible idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Not sure why people are so resistant to this. The worst that can happen is it's not a great film.
    Speaking solely for myself, I'm not resistant, I'm just... Well, I kind of understand why people watch NASCAR now.
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    Thank you, thank you, I promise that my reign will be brutal and merciless!

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Could someone please explain the Fortnite joke? I don't play a lot of video games.
    Sadly, not a joke.

    They literally decided to, instead of explaining the arrival of Palpatine in the videos, to do it in Fortnite.

    Which most of us didn't know about at all, because there's no particular reason a Star Wars fan would be plugged into Fortnite. So, mostly there was a bunch of people going "huh?"

    I am morbidly curious about what the overarching strategy was for that trilogy. I mean, sure "none" is a valid answer, but there had to be meetings and stuff. How exactly did these decisions happen?
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2021-02-17 at 03:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I am morbidly curious about what the overarching strategy was for that trilogy. I mean, sure "none" is a valid answer, but there had to be meetings and stuff. How exactly did these decisions happen?
    As meeting time approaches 8 hours, the probability of the poor souls trapped within said meeting making any decision just to get the meeting to end approaches 1. It may well be that the guiding strategy was "Sure Bob's idea is so mind-crackingly dumb just hearing it made me forget my street address and my mother in law's name, but if I agree with it, I can try to find out where I live and then order pizza."
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    Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
    They literally decided to, instead of explaining the arrival of Palpatine in the videos, to do it in Fortnite.

    Which most of us didn't know about at all, because there's no particular reason a Star Wars fan would be plugged into Fortnite. So, mostly there was a bunch of people going "huh?"
    Now that was a bizarre marketing decision. Because when I first saw the title crawl, I was thinking "what?" and wondering where that came from.

    At least I wasn't alone in my confusion. But now I'm baffled who could've possibly thought that was a good idea.

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    If there had been a firm plan, it would have got wrecked when Carrie died anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    If there had been a firm plan, it would have got wrecked when Carrie died anyway.
    Not necessarily. In TLJ, I thought they were killing off Leia before she just came back. They could have legit killed her off with a firm plan and different plots. Or had different schedules and had all her filming done. The first is more likely, but there are definite possibilities. And could have always recast,thouhh that would probably have been met with some pushback.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    There are a few examples around. The most famous one is probably Blade Runner, where the theatrical cut is hated and the director's cut adored. There's also Star Wars: the original (unreleased) cut was panned by almost everyone who saw it, and Lucas re-edited it extensively before release - it went on to do ok.
    But...isn't that more like the "Not-Director's Cut"? Because Hirsch?

    Random comments on other elements from the thread:

    Liked watching Sucker Punch the way I did...saw several independent segments of it at different times without seeing the whole film. Thus I made my own story stitching the dream sequences together.

    Totally missed the boat on 300. Watchmen was overhyped from the very beginning of the print run, much less the movie...

    Virtually all of my interest in DC movies has waned - liked WW a lot, but WW84 was a gigantic step backwards. The only MCU movie I don't like better than all of the DC movies (other than WW) is GotG 2. And maybe GotG.

    I think the new SW trilogy could have worked fine with three directors, and even three directors coming together to decide on their shared story...but it would take the right temperament, and I don't know who has that any more.

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    Well apparently the Rian Johnson trilogy isn't dead, so we may yet see whether a unified creative vision can do a better job with SW than the scattershot approach did. I firmly believe the answer to that is yes, but only time will tell.

    Regarding Snyder, I actually liked Sucker Punch. But I maintain that his problem is that doubling down on Nolan's edgy approach to the DC universe at the expense of their more idealistic beats is a mistake. I absolutely detested Man of Steel, and I fail to see how more of that with an infusion of Joker is going to improve anything, but it feels like ths studio is hell-bent on being tonally different from Marvel no matter the cost to its characters. His insistence on forcing black-suit Superman onto the big screen is a microcosm of that misalignment, at least to me.

    In my view, Vision makes a much better Superman than anything the DCEU has put out lately.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well apparently the Rian Johnson trilogy isn't dead, so we may yet see whether a unified creative vision can do a better job with SW than the scattershot approach did. I firmly believe the answer to that is yes, but only time will tell.
    After Knives Out I'm definitely interested.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well apparently the Rian Johnson trilogy isn't dead, so we may yet see whether a unified creative vision can do a better job with SW than the scattershot approach did. I firmly believe the answer to that is yes, but only time will tell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    After Knives Out I'm definitely interested.
    Count me in. I still think thay one of the main flaws of the ST was that it erased the achievements of the OT and that it wouldn't have been as bad if it had involved completely different characters, so I'm interested to see what Johnson can do when he's in SW's terra incognita

    Also, I gotta remember to watch Knives Out at some point.
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    To be fair, I've nothing but sympathy given his job was "write the middle portion to a story featuring beloved characters with a rabid fanbase. You have no input into the beginning or ending."

    Somewhat back on track, I got a good laugh this morning out of the realization that a red-banded, gory trailer for a Mortal Kombat movie looked less gloomy and more fun than a superhero flick starring the Justice League.

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