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Thread: The Snyder Cut

  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    After Knives Out I'm definitely interested.
    Knives Out demonstrates why Johnson was a poor choice for the middle film in a trilogy where he didn't have creative control of either end. He likes playing with character archetypes and breaking them down. The "brilliant detective" that misses the blindingly obvious, the "Chosen One" who is actually nothing of the kind. Doing so when the prior and following movies did not support it resulted in...well...TLJ. In this Johnson is very similar to Snyder - he had a vision of the characters and forced it into a franchise that didn't support that vision.

    Johnson could have worked for a deconstructive take on Star Wars but not as part of the main trilogy. He would have been better served helming a self contained movie like Rogue One. A trilogy set in a distant corner of the galaxy that he controls start to finish is much more his speed.

    On Carrie Fisher - literally all they had to do was remove the scene where Leia saves herself. Leia was killed by her son, the end. Slightly anti-climactic for such a venerable character but audiences would have understood given the circumstances.

    As for Snyder, he needs to get out of the superhero genre. If he were to focus on doing something original or which was already dark and gritty he would draw much less flak. There's obviously an audience for his directorial style. He should go and create something his fans like instead of irritating everyone by dumping on Superman.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    Somewhat back on track, I got a good laugh this morning out of the realization that a red-banded, gory trailer for a Mortal Kombat movie looked less gloomy and more fun than a superhero flick starring the Justice League.
    YES!!!!

    Although I will never, ever understand Hollywood's insistence on saying "You know what this beloved video game property with a vibrant cast of characters needs? A gormless new person (preferably white!) to serve as the audience POV protagonist!"

    Put another way - who the blank is Cole and why are they adding a new Chosen One to MK? Didn't they learn their lesson from Deception?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    Somewhat back on track, I got a good laugh this morning out of the realization that a red-banded, gory trailer for a Mortal Kombat movie looked less gloomy and more fun than a superhero flick starring the Justice League.
    YES!!!!

    Although I will never, ever understand Hollywood's insistence on saying "You know what this beloved video game property with a vibrant cast of characters needs? A gormless new person (preferably white!) to serve as the audience POV protagonist!"

    Put another way - who the blank is Cole (Kole?) and why are they adding a new Chosen One to MK? Didn't they learn their lesson from Deception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    On Carrie Fisher - literally all they had to do was remove the scene where Leia saves herself. Leia was killed by her son, the end. Slightly anti-climactic for such a venerable character but audiences would have understood given the circumstances.
    I saw literally no problem with her being the one to finish Rey's Force training and dying shortly afterward. Using the Force to save herself was a badass moment, period. My entire theater gasped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    As for Snyder, he needs to get out of the superhero genre. If he were to focus on doing something original or which was already dark and gritty he would draw much less flak. There's obviously an audience for his directorial style. He should go and create something his fans like instead of irritating everyone by dumping on Superman.
    Or hell, give him gritty superheroes to work with. I could see a Spawn reboot being worth something. Or put him behind Supreme Power or something.

    Or if it absolutely has to be Superman, Injustice is almost certainly going to be a movie one day. I can't fathom why it sells, but it does.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-02-18 at 02:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    After Knives Out I'm definitely interested.
    He is without a doubt one of my favorite directors alive, but I still don't think I like him mucking about in start wars with a mainline series. I rather like my sweeping narratives about good/evil and the like and am not on board with the depth of deconstructionist take on the whole setting. Give him like, Rogue One 2 or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Or hell, give him gritty superheroes to work with. I could see a Spawn reboot being worth something. Or put him behind Supreme Power or something.

    Or if it absolutely has to be Superman, Injustice is almost certainly going to be a movie one day. I can't fathom why it sells, but it does.
    Oh absolutely, there are certainly super hero properties that would fit the tone he wants to land on. Heck, given his personal philosophical leanings I could see him doing well if you threw Question, Blue Beatle, and so one from the old Charlton Comics at him as it's own self small budget series.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2021-02-18 at 02:27 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Also, I gotta remember to watch Knives Out at some point.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well apparently the Rian Johnson trilogy isn't dead, so we may yet see whether a unified creative vision can do a better job with SW than the scattershot approach did. I firmly believe the answer to that is yes, but only time will tell.
    This will not prove/disprove your hypothesis...I believe the null should certainly be rejected, but I would not count on Johnson for a quality data point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    After Knives Out I'm definitely interested.
    I liked about 95% of Knives Out...and had I *not* seen the trailers, it probably would have been like 99%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Knives Out demonstrates why Johnson was a poor choice for the middle film in a trilogy where he didn't have creative control of either end. He likes playing with character archetypes and breaking them down. The "brilliant detective" that misses the blindingly obvious, the "Chosen One" who is actually nothing of the kind. Doing so when the prior and following movies did not support it resulted in...well...TLJ. In this Johnson is very similar to Snyder - he had a vision of the characters and forced it into a franchise that didn't support that vision.

    Johnson could have worked for a deconstructive take on Star Wars but not as part of the main trilogy. He would have been better served helming a self contained movie like Rogue One. A trilogy set in a distant corner of the galaxy that he controls start to finish is much more his speed.
    He wasn't a good choice at all, in my opinion. His overwhelming desire to [opinionatedstatementahead!] subvert/deconstruct popular things to earn cheap pops [/opinion] needs to remain outside of an established universe...or at least one he did not create. Got a clever message you want to share? You've got the credit and bankability now...do it in your own world and your own way.

    Back on topic: Is Snyder a victim of "Dark DC" or is he a victimizer?

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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    I've never really seen Last Jedi as deconstructionist in any meaningful way. Really it's just straight Star Wars, rebels good, Empire bad, Jedi do Jedi stuff to save the day. I suppose it's a little subversive that Rey and Kylo have their special bondy-bondy moment and Kylo isn't immediately redeemed...but pretty much the same thing happened with Luke and Vader in Empire. And Luke refuses to train Rey before training Rey, sorta just like Yoda and Luke in Empire. And everybody else runs around doing a bunch of stuff before getting betrayed and in way over their heads... just like in Empire. I suppose "tertiary character actually for real sells the heroes out, no backsies" is like kinda a subversion, but only if your expectation is that literally everyone the heroes meet immediately drops all existing priorities on the spot to help them... which has never been the case in the first place.

    It's just a less good version of Empire with a couple plot dead ends and a timeline that explicitly makes no sense. I guess we get a grand total of like 15 seconds of outright subversion when they talk about arms dealers making bank off of Ye Eternal Star War, but this goes nowhere, means nothing, and impacts the characters not at all.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Johnson could have worked for a deconstructive take on Star Wars but not as part of the main trilogy. He would have been better served helming a self contained movie like Rogue One. A trilogy set in a distant corner of the galaxy that he controls start to finish is much more his speed.
    In other words "why KOTOR II isn't as divisive as TLJ".


    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You will want the full donut trilogy after watching it. And you will understand that joke.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    From earlier in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    Is it just me or does it seem like every movie thread degenerates into a Star Wars: The Last Jedi discussion? I am surprised someone hasn't said Star Wars: The Last Jedi as a favorite Samurai/Western movie on those threads.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Every thread here eventually degenerates into a Star Wars thread. Every Star Wars thread here eventually degenerates into a Last Jedi thread.
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    So The Last Jedi is the black hole of giantitip.com? We are all slowly sucked towards it no matter what we do.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Originally Posted by Trafalgar
    And we are sucked into the black hole again!
    It's a high parabolic orbit, just like those stars orbiting the supermassive black hole at the center of the galaxy.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    So back to the main subject, no. The expectations of this film are to some how turn it into Infinity War. So if I have no expectations no excitement I might actually be able to enjoy it.

    Back to SW, When George Lucas wrote the original trilogy he didn’t really know where he was going but was very good at looking back and seeing what the old film could lead to.
    He didn’t come up with the reveal that Vader was really Anakin Skywalker until he was writing Empire.

    The problem with the writing of the prequel trilogy was he knew where it was going so he had to write a path to get there.

    The problem with the sequel trilogy was they had no idea where they were going and there was no looking back to see what they could build from the road already had.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    To sum up my opinion simply: Snyder has one basic style that he uses regardless of whether it's appropriate or not. If you like the style, you'll enjoy his movies. If you don't, you won't.

    I'm not a fan, and it's hard for me to see how adding two hours to a mediocre movie is going to improve it. But as someone said previously (don't remember if it was this thread or another), there's no way anyone is going to greenlight a 4 hour superhero movie, so don't do it that way from the beginning.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    YES!!!!

    Although I will never, ever understand Hollywood's insistence on saying "You know what this beloved video game property with a vibrant cast of characters needs? A gormless new person (preferably white!) to serve as the audience POV protagonist!"

    Put another way - who the blank is Cole (Kole?) and why are they adding a new Chosen One to MK? Didn't they learn their lesson from Deception?
    Wait, they're making up a new generic white dude protagonist for that Mortal Kombat movie? Did Mortal Kombat somehow not have enough potential main protagonists to choose from? Because I'm not even a big MK fan (hence why I haven't watched the trailers for that film to know this), but I can name ten good options just off the top of my head. One of them's even a white dude, Johnny Cage.

    ...and yeah, quick internet search, and it does look like this Cole guy is new to the film, not some obscure pull from one of the less popular games. Wow.
    Last edited by Zevox; 2021-02-18 at 07:04 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Clearly the Mortal Kombat movie was crying out for Shujinko as its protagonist.

    Still, the threat of a 4 hour Zack Snyder film would be enough to break me, in lieu of actual torture.
    Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2021-02-18 at 07:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Oh absolutely, there are certainly super hero properties that would fit the tone he wants to land on. Heck, given his personal philosophical leanings I could see him doing well if you threw Question, Blue Beatle, and so one from the old Charlton Comics at him as it's own self small budget series.
    Didn't they already do something like that and call it Watchmen?

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
    Didn't they already do something like that and call it Watchmen?
    Wasn't Watchmen itself just that in comic book form?
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Wasn't Watchmen itself just that in comic book form?
    Eh, kinda. Watchmen the comic has clear parallels to their characters. But analyzes and ultimately rejects most the philosophies espoused by the old Charlton Comic characters, especially Ditko's Question and Boyette's Peacemaker.

    Then Snyder made his movie and seemed to miss that Rorschach wasn't the hero and while Comedian had an intelligence to him, nothing he did was actually cool or admirable.

    Letting him make a movie where Question can be in the right without him missing the subtext of the story may actually work.

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    You know, I think it’s worth giving him the credit to say he probably did get who Rorschach was but just wanted to interpret the character differently rather then just assuming he “didn’t get it”
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    My general impression of the original movie is that it was trying to be Avengers 1 despite having two movies of build-up (both with a heavy focus on Superman), and having to cram that build-up into Justice League. If Wonder Woman had happened before JL, if Aquaman had happened before JL, there'd be less need to have the "im putting together a team" scenes in this movie as opposed to in those ones. Flash and Cyborg have little enough pre-existing heroics that introducing them in Justice League could work well enough, but when this is the first time we've seen three of the six members, and the first time Wonder Woman's gotten real character development as opposed to cameos, and it's still building up Batman's characterization more than a little bit, and we've gotta work in a resurrection mechanic for bringing superman back to life because they killed him in the second movie...

    ...it's just too much to cram into one film. They tried to get too much done too quickly. Half the reason the MCU works is because it's a story told across 22 movies. It doesn't speak well of Justice League that it would literally be a better movie if it had come out after Wonder Woman and Aquaman, but that's the context it lives within.

    Suicide Squad had the same problem but worse, and also other problems: if there'd been a series of movies that have already occurred (especially a Batman movie), we could've had establishing scenes for Joker, Harley, Deadshot, and Captain Boomerang. Granted, there's other problems that movie had that wouldn't be solved by this, but at least then you wouldn't be more or less entirely dependent on comic knowledge to have an idea of what, say, Killer Croc's deal is. If he'd had characterization as a small cameo in a batman movie or something, maybe he would've been allowed to have character at all. Maybe they could've had a supervillain issue to solve that was actually on their threat-level. Maybe...maybe lots of things.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    To sum up my opinion simply: Snyder has one basic style that he uses regardless of whether it's appropriate or not. If you like the style, you'll enjoy his movies. If you don't, you won't.

    I'm not a fan, and it's hard for me to see how adding two hours to a mediocre movie is going to improve it. But as someone said previously (don't remember if it was this thread or another), there's no way anyone is going to greenlight a 4 hour superhero movie, so don't do it that way from the beginning.
    This. Snyder is really really good at taking a cool image in his head and making it happen on the big screen. He's...okayish to bad at connection cool scenes together. This works in 300 because that movie is basically all cool scenes and very minimal filler and that's the whole style of it so who cares. But other movies suffer from having the connective-tissue neglected, including Justice League.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-02-19 at 03:05 AM.


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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    You know, I think it’s worth giving him the credit to say he probably did get who Rorschach was but just wanted to interpret the character differently rather then just assuming he “didn’t get it”
    If you read what Snyder himself says about his Watchmen film, you will understand that he thinks that he is faithfully reproducing the comic.

    Which, given how his movie is so obviously thematically opposite to the comic in so many ways, really does mean that we have to assume that Snyder's "faithful reproduction" was of a version of Watchmen that only existed in his head, and which was built from only the surface aesthetic of the comic without examining what the comic was saying about what it showed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack Snyder
    ”You should be less sexy and less violent,” I say, ”But that’s Watchmen.”
    source

    As I pointed out upthread. Watchmen isn't sexy. There's sex in it, but it's not sexy. It's actually quite sad and pathetic, it's there to show what's wrong with these people and how they fail to make normal human connections. And the violence is, because of the way the comic depicts it (or rather doesn't, remember, only the instant after the violence is shown never the act), not there to show violence but to show harm and hurt.

    Snyder tells us what he thinks Watchmen is about, and he's wrong. He didn't get it. His own words demonstrate that. He constructed a version of it in his head that ignored quite a lot of the actual work because he only looks at the surfaces, not the meanings.
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-02-19 at 06:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    My general impression of the original movie is that it was trying to be Avengers 1
    Massively overhyped mediocrity? HEYO!

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  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Have you ever actually listened to the dialogue in Avengers 1 and tried to use it to follow the plot?

    It's 90% nonsensical Whedonism where the characters are mostly talking at air rather than talking to each other like actual people might.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Have you ever actually listened to the dialogue in Avengers 1 and tried to use it to follow the plot?

    It's 90% nonsensical Whedonism where the characters are mostly talking at air rather than talking to each other like actual people might.
    Having been in a room with several smart-mouthed people who are generally not terribly interested in cooperating with each other, i can confirm that is actually about what it would sound like.
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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Have you ever actually listened to the dialogue in Avengers 1 and tried to use it to follow the plot?

    It's 90% nonsensical Whedonism where the characters are mostly talking at air rather than talking to each other like actual people might.
    Not that I'm even remotely enthused about jumping to even a light defense of a work that unfortunately was done by a very bad person, but that's literally every movie. It's a visual medium, not a radio play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Not that I'm even remotely enthused about jumping to even a light defense of a work that unfortunately was done by a very bad person, but that's literally every movie. It's a visual medium, not a radio play.
    Movable cameras mean most movies have people talk directly at each other without needing to orient their bodies towards the audience, if that's what you mean. But i do not think that's what GloatingSwine meant.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-02-19 at 10:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Wasn't Watchmen itself just that in comic book form?
    That was more or less what I was going for. The way I understand it, Alan Moore went to DC with an idea for the (at that point, newly acquired) Charlton characters. They loved the idea, but realized it would utterly ruin the characters for any future use so they told him to go ahead with the story but create new characters. Those ended up being based on the Charlton characters. I'll leave it to others more knowledgeable on the topic than myself to debate how close Moore came to replicating them and if he meant to 100%.

    Basically I was trying to make a joke based on the history of the comic. Apparently I shouldn't quit my day job.

    Edit to add: As far as Snyder and Rorschach, I've always taken the hero worship as a sign of the leanings of the audience. Using just the movie, you can make a very clear case that Rorschach is mentally unhinged and should not be considered a hero. A somewhat effective vigilante who gives some criminals what they deserve? Maybe, I guess. Delivering what the audience feels is satisfying justice to murderers (and worse)? Sure. A hero? Not even close. That the audience sees him that way is on the audience. They shouldn't leave that movie feeling like anyone was a hero. I feel like Snyder left more than enough in the movie to make that point clear.

    The majority of the audience doesn't realize it's a deconstruction and not a straight super hero movie, so they feel like there should be a hero and they jump to one of the only choices that kinda fits. Rorschach has lots of monologue moments, he's like Batman but actually solves problems instead of waiting for them to kill again, etc. Who else are they going to gravitate towards? Dan? He's too wishy washy. Dr. Manhattan? The unknowable, inhuman god? Ozymandias? Maybe, he does take a more proactive role and tries to solve what he sees as the problem, but does so by killing millions of people. People don't like to admit they were wrong, or tricked. So, they think up to most of the way through the movie that they are watching a regular superhero movie and thus someone must be the hero, and they choose Rorschach. They don't back down from this because it would require introspection and that isn't what the masses look for in movies. I don't really blame Snyder for the failings of the audience. Perhaps he can be blamed for not anticipating said failings though. I do blame him for leaving out the squid.

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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Movable cameras mean most movies have people talk directly at each other without needing to orient their bodies towards the audience, if that's what you mean. But i do not think that's what GloatingSwine meant.
    What I'm saying is that if you remove all the visuals of a movie and only rely on dialogue you're not going to know what is happening. That's not a uniquely Avengers 1 thing.

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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    What I'm saying is that if you remove all the visuals of a movie and only rely on dialogue you're not going to know what is happening. That's not a uniquely Avengers 1 thing.
    Ah, that makes more sense, but I also disagree with that. Most movies require dialogue for the vast majority of the plot and to explain what would happen, and the visuals are just quick and dirty exposition. Off the top of my head you could play The Blues Brothers with the monitor turned off and understand the vast majority of the plot and what is happening. Even with Jaws, the dialogue and the visuals pull equal weight. I don't remember much of Avengers 1 so I can't soak to how accurate the statement was, but expository and plot-advancing dialogue to other characters is a pretty major and vital part of filmmaking. So much so that it's very noticeable and commented on when it is absent.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-02-19 at 10:31 AM.
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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Ah, that makes more sense, but I also disagree with that. Most movies require dialogue for the vast majority of the plot and to explain what would happen, and the visuals are just quick and dirty exposition. Off the top of my head you could play The Blues Brothers with the monitor turned off and understand the vast majority of the plot and what is happening. Even with Jaws, the dialogue and the visuals pull equal weight. I don't remember much of Avengers 1 so I can't soak to how accurate the statement was, but expository and plot-advancing dialogue to other characters is a pretty major and vital part of filmmaking. So much so that it's very noticeable and commented on when it is absent.
    Eh, that's fair. I would argue that to some degree, but I haven't seen Blues Brothers or Jaws. It'd still be far harder to follow those films without the visuals though.

    In the case of Avengers and so on, it probably does lean more heavily on showing the story with visuals, and that might make it very hard to follow JUST from dialogue... but I don't think that is unique, and I don't think it'd be impossible.

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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Ah, that makes more sense, but I also disagree with that. Most movies require dialogue for the vast majority of the plot and to explain what would happen, and the visuals are just quick and dirty exposition. Off the top of my head you could play The Blues Brothers with the monitor turned off and understand the vast majority of the plot and what is happening. Even with Jaws, the dialogue and the visuals pull equal weight. I don't remember much of Avengers 1 so I can't soak to how accurate the statement was, but expository and plot-advancing dialogue to other characters is a pretty major and vital part of filmmaking. So much so that it's very noticeable and commented on when it is absent.
    Context is everything though, and Avengers 1 exists in the context of it being less a "movie" and more of a two hour long celebration that the whole Marvel Experiment was working. It neither needs nor wants to have a bunch of expository dialogue for it's plot. The dialogue is exactly what it needed to be, characters frenetically bouncing off one another and establishing their dynamic so that when the big scene comes at the end with them in the circle your brain starts producing the feel good goo and then the punching starts. Whedon knew what his job was on that set and no matter how much people want to whinge about how he handles character dialogue there was a real reason who he was on most everyone's short list for handling ensemble pieces before the latest news broke on him.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Eh, that's fair. I would argue that to some degree, but I haven't seen Blues Brothers or Jaws. It'd still be far harder to follow those films without the visuals though.

    In the case of Avengers and so on, it probably does lean more heavily on showing the story with visuals, and that might make it very hard to follow JUST from dialogue... but I don't think that is unique, and I don't think it'd be impossible.
    Hard agree here, film as a visual medium have a very wide range of avenues to tell a story and saying that leaning harder into the visual aspects that make it unique from something like a book or a play is not an automatic indicator of quality. Sure Avengers isn't Blues Brothers, but it also doesn't want to be.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2021-02-19 at 10:44 AM.
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