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Thread: The Snyder Cut

  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    A lot of renditions have his motivation stemming from his family's death. It's a pretty standard part of the character.
    While the seminal events for Bruce Wayne and Frank Castle are very similar, their motivations for what they do because of those events are very different. Bruce becomes Batman to stop criminal actions and save other little Bruce's from losing their parents. Frank becomes Punisher to kill people who do bad things to try and purge his rage/guilt/sorrow (certainly in the early run, they've tried to add more layers (like an onion!) to him over time).

    Batman punches to protect innocents. Punisher shoots to punish criminals. Rorschach beats people to try to punish society for him being on the bottom rung.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Wolverine is also a fairly popular character who is notable for being violent.
    Yup, I mentioned him early on. He is the sun source without whom Punisher and Deadpool don't get their own books.

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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    @Peelee: duly noted

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    The Reed Richards is Useless trope is more about how the world remains the same around super-inventors that use one-off inventions to stop a bad guy that could revolutionize the medical, manufacturing, or food production industries. Less about Reed personally saving the world as passing blueprints to assistants to see if the matter re-arranger could maybe feed the 3rd world. The Villainous side is Cut Lex Luthor a Check, where a villain could build a freeze gun that rewrites the laws of thermodynamics and instead of heading to the patent office they rob a bank with it. Thought experiments to mull over how superheroes could change the world in other ways.
    Oh I totally agree with the Reed Richards is Useless trope. My point was more aimed at the question "why aren't Reed or Tony being judged for not having solved crime in New York with their riches and smarts, while Batman is?" But to me that's the wrong question - I'm not judging any of them for not having solved crime. Rather, I'm judging Batman for the specific methods he DOES use to try and address it. With Reed and Tony, you have at least the excuse that New York street crime and mobster crime are problems that are well below their attention, better left to heroes like Daredevil and Spiderman - but the same can't be said of Batman, who has made tackling municipal crime his stated mission. With him, the gap between his methods and the effectiveness of his results is thrown into much starker relief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    Peter certainly knew it was there by Endgame, he activated it rather than the suit doing it on its own. And given the situation, I won't argue it wasn't appropriate force, and I can see Tony putting it in the suit, these guys weren't robbing a convenience store, they had previously wiped out half the universe.

    It just bugs me. It's like....seeing the Zack Snyder take on Super-Grover for lack of a better way to phrase it.
    I saw it more as one-off gag in HC that became a brick joke/callback in EG. Besides, I can forgive Peter for being a little out of character in one climactic battle given that Thanos already killed him once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    And Amen to that. It gets tough to re-watch the first Toby Maguire Spider-Man and have scenes where two people in static masks are throwing dialogue at each other. That movie did a lot of groundwork for what works and what doesn't adapting comics to screen.
    Agreed - I'm not judging Raimi, he did the best he could with the time period.

    Also I didn't highlight the other comicbook benefit to Spidey's Stark suit - in Spiderman comics, he's constantly riffing in his head, cracking wise or being nervous. In a comic that's easy to do with thought bubbles, narrator asides and the like. In the movies prior to Homecoming though, the way they tried to get this across was just having him talk to himself, which made Andrew Garfield's spidey just come off as kind of crazy. Stark designing his suit allowed him to get Karen to talk to instead, giving them a way to incorporate that aspect of the character without having Peter be a weirdo. (Well, more of a weirdo.) This lets you get compelling scenes where Spidey is alone, like being trapped in the warehouse, and still have him feel like Spidey - unlike, say, Andrew Garfield's giant Pepe Silvia wall of bonkers around his missing parents.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Doesn't the Punisher just steal money from the people he kills to afford his weapons and tech on the black market? He could easily have millions from drug ops, money laundering, etc. That doesn't mean he can spend any of it legitimately.

    Which, to my knowledge, isn't that different from how police handle seized money. It goes into their organization to be used in various ways.
    Him directly stealing weapons have been mentioned a few times, but I'm honestly not a big enough Punisher fan to know his economic breakdown in more detail. I mostly just read them in crossover events.

    Still, he's comfortably far above Rorschach, and far below Bruce Wayne. It's at least reasonable enough that I'm not surprised that he's not funding orphanages. Dropping off a bloody sack of weapons or something doesn't seem like something most charities would want.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Very excited for this though I'm more excited for the Batman

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    I don't really buy that Stark is so different, he deals with Cosmic threats as part of the Avengers, but he spends plenty of time dealing with ordinary criminals with knockoff tech.

    Money is not enough alone, it's not like places with lots of money are automatically cured of corruption.

    Spidey uses enough webbing swinging through the streets that I don't think his webbing is so limited. There's no reason he should ever need to punch or kick any mere mortal. His beating of criminals requires all the same assumptions as Bats (more, because superhuman strength).

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I don't really buy that Stark is so different, he deals with Cosmic threats as part of the Avengers, but he spends plenty of time dealing with ordinary criminals with knockoff tech.

    Money is not enough alone, it's not like places with lots of money are automatically cured of corruption.

    Spidey uses enough webbing swinging through the streets that I don't think his webbing is so limited. There's no reason he should ever need to punch or kick any mere mortal. His beating of criminals requires all the same assumptions as Bats (more, because superhuman strength).
    Spidey has a finite amount of webbing he can carry on his person. In the MCU at least it isnt an innate thing he can do, he does use ammo cartridges.

    As for Iron Man, i dont think anybody with his stolen tech can really be considered a street level criminal. Youre looking at terrorist organizations, rogue nations and supervillains like Vulture.
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  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Sure, but considering how much he uses just moving around the city, I'm not buying that he doesn't have enough to disable attackers instead of punching them. If Bats cripples criminals down on their luck for life offscreen, so does Spiderman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Spidey has a finite amount of webbing he can carry on his person. In the MCU at least it isnt an innate thing he can do, he does use ammo cartridges.

    As for Iron Man, i dont think anybody with his stolen tech can really be considered a street level criminal. Youre looking at terrorist organizations, rogue nations and supervillains like Vulture.
    So this is sort of interesting. If Spiderman uses silk ammo cartridges, he could easily distribute them to every other Avenger. Even if they can't do the webswinging thing, it's still clearly extremely useful for restraining people, low-bulk, light, and seems to be able to be set up to be just point and shoot. So why doesn't he?

    Doylest answer: because webslinging is Spiderman's thing, and if you actually disseminated technology in a remotely sensible way (even within the organization) you'd end up with some sort of conventional sci-fi thing with the world's shoddiest worldbuilding. The thing that moves merchandise are distinct, easy to latch on to characters with unique gimmicks, so these niches need to be protected at all costs. Superheroes only work if the focus is only on the heroes, so they need to remain distinct in order to be focused on. Watsonian answer, I donno, copyright infringement?

    Although honestly, given just how many plots revolve around keeping various pieces of hero-originated technology out of the hands of literally anyone else, there's a solid argument to be made that the greatest threat to the Avengers is IP infringement. They really are Disney!
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Spidey has a finite amount of webbing he can carry on his person. In the MCU at least it isnt an innate thing he can do, he does use ammo cartridges.
    I don't think individual cartridges were so big that carrying a bunch of spares would be an issue. So webbing everyone should be an option.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    I don't think individual cartridges were so big that carrying a bunch of spares would be an issue. So webbing everyone should be an option.
    I mean, he webs regular people. Its just its not indestructible, so supervillains get out or otherwise break it.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    People keep comparing Batman to Rorschach but I thinking it’s a false comparison. What they have in common is angry guy beats up criminal in dark alley. If we’re going to compare him to a Watchman character he’s Veidt.
    Due to their levels of planning and manipulation of both enemies and supposed allies.

    Well technically Batman’s Nite Owl but the Batman we know today wasn’t the same one in the comics when Watchman was released.
    The Batman we know today is largely due to Alan Moore writing Batman comics.
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  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    So this is sort of interesting. If Spiderman uses silk ammo cartridges, he could easily distribute them to every other Avenger. Even if they can't do the webswinging thing, it's still clearly extremely useful for restraining people, low-bulk, light, and seems to be able to be set up to be just point and shoot. So why doesn't he?

    Doylest answer: because webslinging is Spiderman's thing, and if you actually disseminated technology in a remotely sensible way (even within the organization) you'd end up with some sort of conventional sci-fi thing with the world's shoddiest worldbuilding. The thing that moves merchandise are distinct, easy to latch on to characters with unique gimmicks, so these niches need to be protected at all costs. Superheroes only work if the focus is only on the heroes, so they need to remain distinct in order to be focused on. Watsonian answer, I donno, copyright infringement?

    Although honestly, given just how many plots revolve around keeping various pieces of hero-originated technology out of the hands of literally anyone else, there's a solid argument to be made that the greatest threat to the Avengers is IP infringement. They really are Disney!
    Given their tensile strength and adhesion, I'd guess that using the webs properly would require Spidey's unique combination of super-strength and agility. I don't know that just handing Tony Stark some webshooters to bolt onto his suit would work as well, though of course I'm sure I'm missing a comic where that was exactly the case
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Y'know, this whole Batman's morality business could be solved by simply making a villainous foil to Batman, a rival guy who is just rich that didn't suffer his trauma and just goes around gunning down criminals with like, gold-plated gadgets similar to Batmans and doesn't even try the whole charity and social change business. that way we can have someone who Batman can comment on and oppose, a villain that embodies people's negative thought of him and show how he opposes that as well. just a ridiculous golden "superhero" that quickly becomes a supervillain when he does reckless stupid things with this antics while trying to kill villains and criminals with like a gatling gun that shoots gold coins, wearing a golden super-suit with gems embedded into it and a money symbol on the front, just go all out in taking at a look at a Batman if he was a spoiled rich kid with nothing deeper to him and turning it into a villain for the real Batman to oppose. name him Rich Man or Captain Rich. don't even be subtle about it, just this silver age looking guy who tries to gun down criminals but might lose his money at some point and becomes a crook himself when his money isn't something he can't access any longer, showing his true colors as someone who cares more about his ego than actual justice.

    But given comic book history I'm guessing either something like that already happened and it didn't take, or it provoke too many similarity thoughts like the Joker does.
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    "Edgier Batman who kills people" would be Azrael I think, and yes, he didn't take.

    I don't recall whether he was rich though.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "Edgier Batman who kills people" would be Azrael I think, and yes, he didn't take.

    I don't recall whether he was rich though.
    No no no, not edgier silly

    Captain Rich wouldn't be brooding at all. He'd be this smiling jerk decked in gaudy riches who is completely thinks they are a hero without any pain or tragedy behind him. He'd be doing the wrong thing because he wouldn't be edgy at all, because he would have no idea what real pain is like. He'd a reckless rich guy think its all joy ride while thinking he is doing good thing then going home with a cheerful smile on his face. He'd contrast Batman's brooding dark atmosphere by being this golden bling-infested constantly smiling rich jerk who says things like "time to throw MONEY at the problem!" he'd combined silver campiness with a more modern goal, but would turn out to just be in it for his ego and thrills and become a robber so he can continue enjoying his lifestyle once someone else takes his money so does more usual campy villainy but bounce between the two while still being psychotically happy in his villainy.

    No wonder Azrael failed he was trying to contrast edge with more edge! That never works. Joker works as a foil because he isn't edgy at all.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-02-28 at 01:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    He'd a reckless rich guy think its all joy ride while thinking he is doing good thing then going home with a cheerful smile on his face. He'd contrast Batman's brooding dark atmosphere by being this golden bling-infested constantly smiling rich jerk who says things like "time to throw MONEY at the problem!"
    Uh... Booster Gold then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Joker works as a foil because he isn't edgy at all.
    *stares in Killing Joke*
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Uh... Booster Gold then?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Uh... Booster Gold then?



    *stares in Killing Joke*
    1.Villainous booster gold you mean

    2. *raises eyebrow back in Batman the Animated Series*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    1.Villainous booster gold you mean

    2. *raises eyebrow back in Batman the Animated Series*
    Eh, even in that there was the whole horribly abusive relationship with Harley Quinn thing that series introduced. That was quite a bit darker - when you got down to it - than what most villains were allowed to be in 1992.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Eh, even in that there was the whole horribly abusive relationship with Harley Quinn thing that series introduced. That was quite a bit darker - when you got down to it - than what most villains were allowed to be in 1992.
    ........stupid relativistic cultural changes. What even is edge anymore?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    ........stupid relativistic cultural changes. What even is edge anymore?
    Robert Pattinson, apparently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    ........stupid relativistic cultural changes. What even is edge anymore?
    Dark clothes.
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    Well, there is the Batman from "All Star Batman and Robin". That Batman makes Rorschach look sane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "Edgier Batman who kills people" would be Azrael I think, and yes, he didn't take.

    I don't recall whether he was rich though.
    The funny thing is that he " DID TAKE " But he wasn't supposed to. We as the audience weren't supposed to like Azrael and it almost screwed up the story. You see Knightfall to Knightsend. Just like Death of Superman to The Return of Superman. Were both longform stories about examining those characters. and their place in the universe by removing them from it and replacing them with flawed mirror versions.

    It was suppose to be a" TAKE THAT " to fans that wanted darker and edgier versions of their heroes, by showing them how bad that would be for those stories.

    Azrael wasn't a look how cool this new Batman is kids.
    It was
    Look how horrible it would be if Batman was a maniac who killed. That was the point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Booster Gold is AMAZING and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.
    I too think he's great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    2. *raises eyebrow back in Batman the Animated Series*
    As noted, even that relatively kid-friendly Joker introduced some dark elements to the canon. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but "Joker isn't edgy at all" is a bizarre take.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    Well, there is the Batman from "All Star Batman and Robin". That Batman makes Rorschach look sane.
    Oh man now there was some edge. (Heres a video)

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    The funny thing is that he " DID TAKE " But he wasn't supposed to. We as the audience weren't supposed to like Azrael and it almost screwed up the story. You see Knightfall to Knightsend. Just like Death of Superman to The Return of Superman. Were both longform stories about examining those characters. and their place in the universe by removing them from it and replacing them with flawed mirror versions.

    It was suppose to be a" TAKE THAT " to fans that wanted darker and edgier versions of their heroes, by showing them how bad that would be for those stories.

    Azrael wasn't a look how cool this new Batman is kids.
    It was
    Look how horrible it would be if Batman was a maniac who killed. That was the point.
    Oh sure, his comics sold. But Azrael hasn't really broken into other media in any meaningful way. I think he finally got an animated debut last year as a one-off character, and a brief sidequest or two in one of the Arkham games - that's it. That doesn't speak to a fanbase clamoring for more of him.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Edgy is different from dark though. The Joker is (frequently) defined by being personally light hearted and mirthful in behavior and manner. He does a lot of really horrific stuff, but i wouldnt really describe it as edgy just because its horrifying.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post

    Oh man now there was some edge. (Heres a video)
    I am not sure if that was "edge" or just a sign that Frank Miller has become increasingly insane since writing Batman:Year One. I mean, in what other comic book/movie/TV Show/etc does the protagonist abduct a child and tells the child to eat rats if he gets hungry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Edgy is different from dark though. The Joker is (frequently) defined by being personally light hearted and mirthful in behavior and manner. He does a lot of really horrific stuff, but i wouldnt really describe it as edgy just because its horrifying.
    I don't know that I can have a meaningful discussion of the story content of Killing Joke on this forum. Suffice to say, it was a completely unnecessary addition to the Joker's premise of being an evil villain, and having him and what he did in this story be instrumental to the origin of Oracle is abhorrent on multiple levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Edgy is different from dark though. The Joker is (frequently) defined by being personally light hearted and mirthful in behavior and manner. He does a lot of really horrific stuff, but i wouldnt really describe it as edgy just because its horrifying.
    If the Joker having his face sliced off and then stitching it back to his head isn't edgy, I don't know what is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I don't know that I can have a meaningful discussion of the story content of Killing Joke on this forum. Suffice to say, it was a completely unnecessary addition to the Joker's premise of being an evil villain, and having him and what he did in this story be instrumental to the origin of Oracle is abhorrent on multiple levels.
    Im familiar with the basic premise, at least, so you dont have to worry about that. Having said that, i dont think you quite got my point. Edgy is not synonymous with dark. Jared Leto's joker was edgy, and i think it was to the detraction of the character. Mark Hamil's joker is not at all edgy and is likely one of the most popular and well known versions of the character. But Mark Hamil's animated Joker also tortured a kid into insanity, brainwashed him, turned him into a killer and implanted a genetic clone of himself to literally physically and mentally turn the poor kid into a copy of the Joker. You dont need edgy to be dark and horrifying, and i dont think its a trait people commonly associate with the Joker, or at least the better versions of him (since like with Batman, there have been a lot of Jokers over the years.)
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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