New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 7 of 7
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Nightblade Theurge - A Duskblade Theurge PRC [PEACH me]

    Greeting playgounders!

    So I had an idea for a weird Duskblade/Druid/Arcane Hierophant build on this thread and one of the posters suggested I make DB specific theurge class.

    Here it is.

    Spoiler: Quick Design Notes
    Show
    I designed it to be open-ended Duskblade + whatever and looking for a balance point around Fochlucan Lyrist. Unlike other theurge classes, this one is open to multiple options for the non-duskblade side. This class also advances certain aspects of other classes through the theurgic study ability. For this reason, it could be easily abused by advancing two or more other spellcasting classes and features. Therefore, you have to choose only one class that is advanced by this class. This class cannot advance casting from more than one other class or from other prestige classes. No Ur-priests.


    Nightblade Theurge
    Requirements
    Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks, and any one other Knowledge 5 ranks
    Spells: Ability to cast 1st level spells from another spellcasting class besides Duskblade.
    Special: Arcane channeling class feature.

    Level BAB Fort Reflex Will Special Spells per Day
    1 +1 +2 +0 +2 Theurgic Study +1 Duskblade/ +1 existing spellcasting class
    2 +2 +3 +0 +3 +1 Duskblade/ +1 existing spellcasting class
    3 +3 +3 +1 +3 Armored Mage +1 Duskblade/ +1 existing spellcasting class
    4 +4 +4 +1 +4 +1 Duskblade/ +1 existing spellcasting class
    5 +5 +4 +1 +4 Channeling (any spell) +1 Duskblade/ +1 existing spellcasting class
    6 +6 +5 +2 +5 +1 Duskblade/ +1 existing spellcasting class
    7 +7 +5 +2 +5 Varied Casting +1 Duskblade/ +1 existing spellcasting class
    8 +8 +6 +2 +6 +1 Duskblade/ +1 existing spellcasting class
    9 +9 +6 +3 +6 +1 Duskblade/ +1 existing spellcasting class
    10 +10 +7 +3 +7 Channeling (two attacks) (full attack) +1 Duskblade/ +1 existing spellcasting class


    Hit Die: d6
    Skill Points: 4 + Int
    [B]Class Skills : Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Jump, Knowledge (all
    skills taken individually), Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

    Class Features

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: You gain no proficiency in any weapons or armor. You abide by the same armor restrictions of the classes you have.

    Theurgic Study
    When you enter this class, choose one base spellcasting class other than duskblade that you have a caster level of 3 or higher. The spellcasting and certain aspects of that class will be advanced by your nightblade theurge levels. This can also advance an invocation using class such as dragonfire adept or warlock. Whenever you gain a nightblade theurge level, you also advance some of the abilities from the base class you chose for your theurgic study. You add your nightblade theurge level to your base class level for determining the advancement of the granted abilities.

    Spoiler: Abilities Advanced by Class
    Show

    “Turn/Rebuke” means any turn undead, rebuke undead, or other turn/rebuke ability granted by a domain or alternate feature (like rebuke dragons or destroy undead). If (ACF) is listed in parentheses, it means you must have they alternate class feature that provides the ability.
    Archivist: Dark knowledge but cannot gain Dread secret or Foreknowledge this way.
    Bard: Bardic music, Inspire courage
    Beguiler: Cloaked casting, Advanced learning
    Cleric: Turn/Rebuke, Domain powers
    Dragonfire Adept: Invocations known, Breath damage, Breath effects known
    Dread Necromancer: Rebuke, Negative energy burst, Advanced learning
    Druid: Wildshape, Animal companion
    Favored Soul: Energy resistance, effective level for wings
    Hexblade: Hexblade’s curse, familiar
    Paladin: Smite, Turn/Rebuke, Special mount
    Ranger: Animal companion, Favored enemy, Wildshape (ACF)
    Sha'ir: Gen familiar, Elemental travel
    Shaman (OA): Animal Companion, Unarmed strike feature, Turn/Rebuke
    Shugenja: Elemental focus, sense elements
    Sorcerer: Familiar, Bloodline feats and powers
    Spellcaster: Ability chosen at 1st level
    Spirit Shaman: Chastise spirits, Spirit guide 5th and 10th level abilities
    Warlock: Eldritch blast, Invocations known
    Warmage: Advanced learning, Armored mage (medium)
    Wizard: Familiar
    Wu-Jen: Spell secret
    Any other: You could easily add any other class by choosing one scaling ability granted at that class’ fist level and any abilities of that class that add spells to their spell list at certain levels (beyond the normal for gaining a level).


    Spellcasting
    At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had gained a level in both duskblade and your spellcasting class you chose with theurgic study. You do not, however, gain any other class feature a character of that class would have gained. This increases invocations known and breath weapon or eldritch blast damage if you chose dragonfire adept or warlock for theurgic study.

    Armored Mage
    At 3rd level, you advance your armored mage ability to the next one on the duskblade progression. In addition, you ignore arcane spell failure when you wear light armor for all your spells, not just duskblade. Your further armored mage advancements beyond light (medium, heavy shields) do not apply to your other spellcasting abilities, only duskblade.

    Channeling: Any Spell
    At 5th level, you can cast any spell through your arcane channeling ability. If it has more than one target or affects an area, it instead only affects the target struck.

    Varied Casting
    At 7th level, you learn to weave the energies of your two casting abilities together. For any spell level you have duskblade spell slots, you can choose one spell you know or can prepare from your other casting class and add it as a duskblade spell known. For example, if could prepare cure moderate wounds in a cleric slot, you can choose to learn it as a 2nd level duskblade spell. You may learn only one spell of each spell level this way, to a maximum of five spells added. You can add a new spell each time you get access to a new duskblade spell level. You can change out any number of the known spells each time you gain a level in this class.

    Channeling: Full Attack
    At 10th level, you can cast any touch or ranged touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round. You can hit the same creature more than once with this ability and it takes the full damage each time. Doing so discharges the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would otherwise last longer than 1 round.


    Channeling: Two Attacks
    At 10th level, you can channel a spell as a full-attack action. You may make two attacks and each attack delivers the effects of the spell before it is discharged.

    Spoiler: Other Channelers
    Show
    So I though about being able to take this class if you have the channeling ability from Ordained Champion or Spellsword. I think this would be just fine as you have to take 7 or 8 levels to get to channeling in those classes, plus 3 levels in another spellcasting class. Essentially you cold get in this class at 11th-20th and cap out with similar spellcasting progression as a duskblade in this class.
    Last edited by Zaile; 2021-02-17 at 07:37 PM. Reason: Updated & Rename
    Signature verification required.

    Latest Homebrew: The Battledancer 5e Dragonfire Adept 5e

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    smile Re: Spellblade Theurge - A Duskblade Theurge PRC [PEACH me]

    This is a well done theurge class! I highly approve it! 👍

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Elves's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2019

    Default Re: Spellblade Theurge - A Duskblade Theurge PRC [PEACH me]

    Strictly better than single class duskblade, so too powerful. People complain that theurge classes leave you out in the cold at 15th level, but if it's easy to theurge to 20 that leaves even less reason to single class.

    Precedent for full bab theurge is JPM which loses CLs @ 1st and 6th and in power level duskblade is same tier as its initiating side.
    The strongest current theurge, arcane hierophant, has medium bab and advances only one side's class features.

    I would only advance duskblade features and either give it true necromancer/ultimate magus style casting, dead levels at 1st and 6th or at least at 1st, or at the very least not allow druid advancement*.

    Making it both sides arcane only would be a reasonable compromise ("master of dawn and dusk"?) because the existing class for that (ultimate magus) presumes fullcasters so is underpowered for duskblade. With only duskblade feature advancement. Stacked with UM this does give 16 BAB plus 9ths and 5ths, which is better than mystic theurge. You could be ok with that, or you might give it medium BAB or a lost CL. I would do the latter -- 16 BAB/8ths/5ths seems like the right result and gives you two powerful touch options, irresistible dance and temporal stasis.

    Or, a Devoted Hunter style feat that lets channeling/armored mage stack with other caster classes. Probably best route since there are already enough arcane theurge classes.

    Or, a theurge that's only for duskblade + another partial caster such as hexblade, ranger or paladin could justify your current features.

    *IMO the druid/duskblade theurge is at the right balance point and giving it an easy way to snag 16 BAB too becomes excessive. Right now it can take MT to get duskblade 5ths but doing so misses 16 bab. That's a healthy tradeoff.


    Edit: Writeup for my version, in its own thread so as not to hijack this one.
    Last edited by Elves; 2021-02-15 at 03:28 PM.
    Join the 3.5e Discord server: https://discord.gg/ehGFz6M3nJ

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spellblade Theurge - A Duskblade Theurge PRC [PEACH me]

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Strictly better than single class duskblade, so too powerful. People complain that theurge classes leave you out in the cold at 15th level, but if it's easy to theurge to 20 that leaves even less reason to single class.

    Precedent for full bab theurge is JPM which loses CLs @ 1st and 6th and in power level duskblade is same tier as its initiating side.
    The strongest current theurge, arcane hierophant, has medium bab and advances only one side's class features.

    I would only advance duskblade features and either give it true necromancer/ultimate magus style casting, dead levels at 1st and 6th or at least at 1st, or at the very least not allow druid advancement*.

    Making it both sides arcane only would be a reasonable compromise ("master of dawn and dusk"?) because the existing class for that (ultimate magus) presumes fullcasters so is underpowered for duskblade. With only duskblade feature advancement. Stacked with UM this does give 16 BAB plus 9ths and 5ths, which is better than mystic theurge. You could be ok with that, or you might give it medium BAB or a lost CL. I would do the latter -- 16 BAB/8ths/5ths seems like the right result and gives you two powerful touch options, irresistible dance and temporal stasis.

    Or, a Devoted Hunter style feat that lets channeling/armored mage stack with other caster classes. Probably best route since there are already enough arcane theurge classes.

    Or, a theurge that's only for duskblade + another partial caster such as hexblade, ranger or paladin could justify your current features.

    *IMO the druid/duskblade theurge is at the right balance point and giving it an easy way to snag 16 BAB too becomes excessive. Right now it can take MT to get duskblade 5ths but doing so misses 16 bab. That's a healthy tradeoff.
    Thanks, good notes.

    I may have not worded it right. I want it to be required to have DB 3/Other base un-modified caster level 3, no early entry tricks. Was trying for a 7th level entry, but I see I need to clean that up.
    I may lose one caster level for each class at 1st since it advances other stuff.

    I think a feat advancing armored mage is good, but advancing to full channeling would completely render DB second-fiddle at it's own game.

    Ultimate magus and true necromancer are built with the potential for 9/9 casting. This will never get that, so full BAB for this seems right. I like the idea of not having to jump through too many hoops. 16 BAB and 5/9 casting is not nearly as broken as 9/9 casting b/c that 9/9 is guaranteed to have Divine Power and Righteous might.

    You are either attacking or casting a spell channeled spells are only broken with full channeling, which I will cut. Channeling 4 harms or d4 drains/turn should require DB 13.

    I will cut full channeling and just give it the capstone of Spellsword/Ordained Champ able to channel any spell, but 1 target. That leaves DB the sole source full channeling a 13th level.

    I may actually make this a half caster/full caster ie. Pal/Ranger/DB + Whatever else PRC instead. Just make the reqs all the 3rd level class abilities and CL 3. Thoughts?
    Signature verification required.

    Latest Homebrew: The Battledancer 5e Dragonfire Adept 5e

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Elves's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2019

    Default Re: Spellblade Theurge - A Duskblade Theurge PRC [PEACH me]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaile View Post
    Ultimate magus and true necromancer are built with the potential for 9/9 casting.
    Without early entry, true necro is 8/8. "By the book" UM is 9/6. Point still taken.

    I may actually make this a half caster/full caster ie. Pal/Ranger/DB + Whatever else PRC instead. Just make the reqs all the 3rd level class abilities and CL 3. Thoughts?
    Yeah, I think that would be a great class to have because it addresses a problem -- current theurges are underpowered for partial casters becaue they're balanced around fullcasting.

    I don't like the "list of class features advanced" or other ultra-generic theurge mechanisms -- at that point, theurge should simply be a game mechanism akin to 4e's hybrid rules. the wya the rules are now imo it works better if theurges have either their own features, no features, or advance very select features from other classes.
    Join the 3.5e Discord server: https://discord.gg/ehGFz6M3nJ

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spellblade Theurge - A Duskblade Theurge PRC [PEACH me]

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Without early entry, true necro is 8/8. "By the book" UM is 9/6. Point still taken.


    Yeah, I think that would be a great class to have because it addresses a problem -- current theurges are underpowered for partial casters becaue they're balanced around fullcasting.

    I don't like the "list of class features advanced" or other ultra-generic theurge mechanisms -- at that point, theurge should simply be a game mechanism akin to 4e's hybrid rules. the wya the rules are now imo it works better if theurges have either their own features, no features, or advance very select features from other classes.
    Heard. The thing with hierophant is it also combines familiar + animal companion for a very smart NPC with sweet abilities on par with high leadership. This isn't just advancing, its theurging companions too.
    What about something like this?

    Requirements
    Duskblade, Paladin, Ranger, or Hexblade level 3rd
    Able to cast 1st level spells in any other spellcasting class or use least invocations
    Spellcraft 8 ranks, any 2 knowledge skills 8 ranks

    Advance Channeling/Armored mage (DB), Smite/Lay/Mount (pal), Favored Enemy/Wild empathy/Animal companion (Ranger), Hexblade's Curse/Greater/Familiar (Hexblade)
    Advance one of: Turn, Familiar, wild shape, dark/bardic knowledge, "learn spells not on list" abilities, any resistances/damage reductions, breath effects.

    In general the familiar feature is always traded out as Obtain Familiar is just so much better and removes the need for it to be a balancing factor in theurging.


    I'm adding the invocation users b/c DFA needs some PRC love. Breath effects on more than poor BAB is needed.
    Signature verification required.

    Latest Homebrew: The Battledancer 5e Dragonfire Adept 5e

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spellblade Theurge - A Duskblade Theurge PRC [PEACH me]

    I still think that the first iteration of the prestige class is your best one so far. Keep what you did the first time, but you could add Channeling: Any Spell, as a early CF at the 4th or 6th level.

    Also channeling spells like Finger of Death, Harm or any other spell may work best on common minions, but not so much the BBEG and his most prized beasts, subordinates and colleagues.

    If you are dealing with a spellcaster BBEG or BBEG with tons of spellcasting support, you will still have to take down all their protections, before you can even start to do any damage, because the DM will take account of the party's abilities for when they clash.

    In case you are unsure, you can still present the first iteration of this PrC as a unchained class.


    Now a little build with the first iteration.
    Duskblade 3/Wizard 2 (with Practiced Spellcaster in both DB and W)/Spellblade Theurge 10/Ultimate Magus 5

    Because ultimate magus either favors the class with either the least caster levels or is a free choice when CL are equal in both classes (text goes before table, except the text refers to it), Wizard can be advanced fully, while Duskblade loses 2 levels of spellcasting progression.
    We will have at ECL 20 the following stats:
    16 BAB, 16/20 Duskblade casting, 17/20 Wizard Spellcasting and CL 20 in both classes.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •