Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings

[Talakeal]

I am trying to make my game / campaign setting more inclusive for various gender and sexual identities, but I don't really know how to go about it.

My setting is roughly equivalent to nineteenth century Earth, but far more egalitarian, without rigidly defined gender roles. In addition, alchemy makes seamlessly changing one's biological sex something which is, while not easy or commonplace, something that is achievable for most people.

I can't personally really see how many of the modern gender identities would fit into such a setting outside of very specific circumstances.


Likewise, when it comes to writing up specific setting NPCs, I don't generally mention family unless it is important for the setting (for example, a dynastic family) because I want to leave it open for other people to develop as they see fit, and because it would also feel forced / tokenist to simply insert a context less line about someone's sexuality or AGAB into their biography. Likewise, I prefer to leave NPCs sexuality ambiguous in my games in case a player wants to romance them.

So, while I have had trans, gender fluid, intersex, and homo/bi/pan sexual NPCs in games that I have run, very little of it comes across in the official NPC write-ups or setting design.



On a related note, what is the proper ratio of male to female characters in artwork? A common sense answer would obviously be 50/50, I have had several people comment about how there are already too many drawings of women despite them only making up about 40% of the artwork.
To go further down that rabbit hole, do you think male gamers are more or less likely to be interested in a game with lots of female representation in the artwork? And vice versa?
And, a little deeper, does it matter how sexualized the art is? I try and avoid out and out cheesecake (its tough, I have found that a lot of artists want to draw it even if not requested), but most of the illustrations are of conventionally attractive people regardless of gender. Likewise, while I am trying to display a wide array of clothing styles and body types, a large portion of the illustrations do depict people who are scantily clad or with unrealistic physiques.

Thanks!

[Batcathat]

To go further down that rabbit hole, do you think male gamers are more or less likely to be interested in a game with lots of female representation in the artwork?

Some? Absolutely. Though I would guess/hope that they'd be a loud minority at most.

And if it was me, I'd probably go with the common sense answer about the artwork, if equality is fairly decent in this world it should be reflected in the pictures. (Don't forget the anonymous people in the crowd scenes. Women can be faceless mooks of an evil overlord too. )

[Xervous]

The biggest things I see you having to work against are the unspoken assumptions of your audience. You have a drastic divergence from the general “19th century” label that needs to be explored in the setting source material in order to properly ground expectations. Just how far back does the discovery of the alchemical gender changing means go? What was life like before then, how have the echoes of that discovery propagated over the years/ages? I’d assume you want it to be deep in the past so few remain who could know a tradition founded in its absence.

If you want to see how things would fit you need to look back to the initial introduction and chart out how the alchemy changed society from the normal common reference point.

Do note that in the absence of high yield farming techniques you’re probably looking at a lot of subsistence level farmers that will be worrying more about their next meal/time the roof leaks than how the neighbors two miles over should be addressing them. The alchemy is probably more readily accessible in urban areas due to higher demand.

[Talakeal]

The biggest things I see you having to work against are the unspoken assumptions of your audience. You have a drastic divergence from the general “19th century” label that needs to be explored in the setting source material in order to properly ground expectations. Just how far back does the discovery of the alchemical gender changing means go? What was life like before then, how have the echoes of that discovery propagated over the years/ages? I’d assume you want it to be deep in the past so few remain who could know a tradition founded in its absence.

If you want to see how things would fit you need to look back to the initial introduction and chart out how the alchemy changed society from the normal common reference point.

Do note that in the absence of high yield farming techniques you’re probably looking at a lot of subsistence level farmers that will be worrying more about their next meal/time the roof leaks than how the neighbors two miles over should be addressing them. The alchemy is probably more readily accessible in urban areas due to higher demand.

The world was colonized sometime in the iron age by refugees from an ultra advanced society more than a thousand years ago.

Most of their advanced technologies were lost but not all. Most of the world is one or two centuries behind modern earth, giving the world an overall western / victorian feel, but medicine is one or two centuries more advanced than modern earth thanks to surviving alchemical techniques.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Talakeal
Likewise, while I am trying to display a wide array of clothing styles and body types, a large portion of the illustrations do depict people who are scantily clad or with unrealistic physiques.

Which illustrations do you mean? The ones in published fantasy RPGs, or in galleries on ArtStation or DA, or in work you’ve commissioned yourself? Just not clear what you mean here.

Originally Posted by Xervous
The alchemy is probably more readily accessible in urban areas due to higher demand.

This brings to mind vast iron-and-glass greenhouses with crops growing by way of alchemical hydroponics.

Originally Posted by Talakeal
The world was colonized….

This in itself will be a huge red flag for some people.

[OldTrees1]

The following is a bad answer, but it is better than most answers:

Use neutral pronouns for everyone unless there is a reason to do otherwise. This can help remove the assumption that everyone is a cis male human from terra.

Everyone has an unlabeled sexuality until after they have sex. This can remove assumptions about sexuality until after 2 characters demonstrate chemistry.

[Gallowglass]

I am trying to make my game / campaign setting more inclusive for various gender and sexual identities, but I don't really know how to go about it.

My setting is roughly equivalent to nineteenth century Earth, but far more egalitarian, without rigidly defined gender roles. In addition, alchemy makes seamlessly changing one's biological sex something which is, while not easy or commonplace, something that is achievable for most people.

I can't personally really see how many of the modern gender identities would fit into such a setting outside of very specific circumstances.

Are you creating this for a set of players or are you trying to make something for theoretically publishing?

Assuming its for the normal group of players you normally post about, why bother? They are not going to care except to possibly belittle your efforts.

So let's assume you are doling it for theoretically publishing.

IME, when I see authors and game creators putting trans, genderfluid, intersex, and so on characters into a setting, they make their sexual identity the sole overwhelming focus of the character and so it becomes self parody at best, preachy holier-than-thou claptrap at worst. I feel that its best when the character can stand on their own identity for reasons other than what their genetalia look like or where they like to put them.

So I prefer to see it more background, subtle and nuanced rather than forced into the narrative loudly and rigorously. Then again, I'm 45 and stopped being titillated by and oversexualizing my roleplaying games twenty odd years ago. In real life, a person's sexual identity is part of who they are, but rarely the overwhelming focus of who they are. Unless they are actively weaponizing their identity or using it as a prop.

On a related note, what is the proper ratio of male to female characters in artwork? A common sense answer would obviously be 50/50, I have had several people comment about how there are already too many drawings of women despite them only making up about 40% of the artwork.
To go further down that rabbit hole, do you think male gamers are more or less likely to be interested in a game with lots of female representation in the artwork? And vice versa?
And, a little deeper, does it matter how sexualized the art is? I try and avoid out and out cheesecake (its tough, I have found that a lot of artists want to draw it even if not requested), but most of the illustrations are of conventionally attractive people regardless of gender. Likewise, while I am trying to display a wide array of clothing styles and body types, a large portion of the illustrations do depict people who are scantily clad or with unrealistic physiques.

I don't think there is a proper ratio. Draw what you want to draw. The people who are complaining about there being too many? I wouldn't put much stock in their feelings because it sounds like they have their own biases.

[quinron]

My two cents, having had a complicated time recently figuring out how to work a character into my setting whose player told me the character was trans several sessions in:

A major complication that I can see here is trans identity. Flawless and easily accessible gender confirmation process would basically eliminate the concept of "trans people" as they exist in our world - there'd be none of the difficulty of, for example, a trans woman trying to be accepted as female while still retaining a butch sense of self-expression. While some people will definitely be gratified by this, I'd recommend you retain a positive place in the game for people who identify and express as a different gender than their birth, but are unable or choose not to medically transition.

A gender-neutral view on society will also need some serious thinking through if the aesthetics - rather than just the technology - of the world resemble the 19th century. Particularly in terms of fashion and personal conduct, which are how we tend to assume one's identity, Victorian and Western society had a strict masculine/feminine divide.

[King of Nowhere]

Likewise, when it comes to writing up specific setting NPCs, I don't generally mention family unless it is important for the setting (for example, a dynastic family) because I want to leave it open for other people to develop as they see fit, and because it would also feel forced / tokenist to simply insert a context less line about someone's sexuality or AGAB into their biography. Likewise, I prefer to leave NPCs sexuality ambiguous in my games in case a player wants to romance them.

So, while I have had trans, gender fluid, intersex, and homo/bi/pan sexual NPCs in games that I have run, very little of it comes across in the official NPC write-ups or setting design.

it's normal. after all, you don't inquire about most people's sexuality. granted, at some point it's commonplace to talk about one's family. then again, one may have a partner of the other gender and be bisexual, or pansexual, or some kind of other shades of which i am not expert.
anyway, that kind of small talk is generally lost in roleplaying, unless you are one of those hardcore groups that roleplay in character even those kind of small interactions.

On a related note, what is the proper ratio of male to female characters in artwork? A common sense answer would obviously be 50/50, I have had several people comment about how there are already too many drawings of women despite them only making up about 40% of the artwork.
To go further down that rabbit hole, do you think male gamers are more or less likely to be interested in a game with lots of female representation in the artwork? And vice versa?
And, a little deeper, does it matter how sexualized the art is? I try and avoid out and out cheesecake (its tough, I have found that a lot of artists want to draw it even if not requested), but most of the illustrations are of conventionally attractive people regardless of gender. Likewise, while I am trying to display a wide array of clothing styles and body types, a large portion of the illustrations do depict people who are scantily clad or with unrealistic physiques.

Thanks!

I think worrying about this stuff is only going to result in unintentional flamebaiting, because if people want to get all up and concerned about gender and representation and sexism, they will ALWAYS find something to complain about. ALWAYS.
for example, for anything that i've been invested enough to go read forums, i haven't seen a single female character that someone didn't think was sexualized.
I mean, take the order of the stick. take laurin shattersmith, the psion of the vector legion. she's a middle aged woman. she's always shown robed from neck to feet, even when she was in a sauna. well, somebody wrote that she was sexualized. this means that nobody is safe from being sexualized, ever. one may argue that being heavily robed inside a sauna is so impractical, the comic may be attempting to cover her as a form of slut shaming*. the same character is criticized for dressing too much and for not dressing enough at the same time.

so, my advice in that regard is to tell the stories you want to tell, draw the stuff you want to draw, and don't worry too much about representation unless you are doing something glaringly obvious

* i believe this is one of the cases where it is ok to circumvent the censorship filter

[Composer99]

Imagine a world where one's gender identity or sexuality, whatever it is, is just a part of who they are, without either a long history of oppression or a vocal and often violent sociopolitical movement trying to redouble that oppression.

Chances are, what you'd get is a world where that element of people's identity just isn't given much thought in day to day life, save for more polite enquiries about one's pronouns and titles than our world usually sees.

Now, we don't live in that world. So if you have players who aren't cishet, or if you want your game to appeal to players who aren't cishet and would like to see representation in the media they consume, you will want to find ways to make your game world's nature more broadly apparent in the text. Maybe read books that are praised for representation and see what they do, or research what authors with a good record on that score do in their works?

Likewise, when it comes to writing up specific setting NPCs, I don't generally mention family unless it is important for the setting (for example, a dynastic family) because I want to leave it open for other people to develop as they see fit, and because it would also feel forced / tokenist to simply insert a context less line about someone's sexuality or AGAB into their biography. Likewise, I prefer to leave NPCs sexuality ambiguous in my games in case a player wants to romance them.

So, while I have had trans, gender fluid, intersex, and homo/bi/pan sexual NPCs in games that I have run, very little of it comes across in the official NPC write-ups or setting design.

In a world where someone's sexuality or gender identity just isn't a big deal, having it as a line item in your notes isn't tokenism: it's like having their eye colour. It's just another thing about them that PCs might or might not care about.

On a related note, what is the proper ratio of male to female characters in artwork? A common sense answer would obviously be 50/50, I have had several people comment about how there are already too many drawings of women despite them only making up about 40% of the artwork.
To go further down that rabbit hole, do you think male gamers are more or less likely to be interested in a game with lots of female representation in the artwork? And vice versa?
And, a little deeper, does it matter how sexualized the art is? I try and avoid out and out cheesecake (its tough, I have found that a lot of artists want to draw it even if not requested), but most of the illustrations are of conventionally attractive people regardless of gender. Likewise, while I am trying to display a wide array of clothing styles and body types, a large portion of the illustrations do depict people who are scantily clad or with unrealistic physiques.

Thanks!

If memory serves, too many (white cishet) men start to complain about overrepresentation of women, people of colour, sexual minorities, etc. in media well before it reaches their actual proportions in societies such as the US, never mind the world at large.

For your project, unfortunately, the degree to which you wish to have accurate representation for your game world might have to be a compromise between your desire for such representation and the makeup of your target market. Accurate representation is, at any rate, the ideal.

D&D and PF both manage to avoid excessive fan service in their official artwork these days, as far as I can tell, so it can be done, although I am sure you have rather more limited budget. I think there is a general expectation that formally published works will avoid oversexualisation.

[Duff]

Some? Absolutely. Though I would guess/hope that they'd be a loud minority at most.

And if it was me, I'd probably go with the common sense answer about the artwork, if equality is fairly decent in this world it should be reflected in the pictures. (Don't forget the anonymous people in the crowd scenes. Women can be faceless mooks of an evil overlord too. )

This. With addition of "Make the art show your world".
If half the evil overlord's mooks are women, the art needs to show approximately that. Also, try and make sure some art is ambiguous about gender.
Show a wedding where you can't tell the gender of either spouse (or all 3 if you want to show poly as well). Caption it with "Father George officiating the wedding of the heir to the Gunther fortune" Make Father Gunther a regular in the art.

To show gender fluidity and show that it's no big deal within a specific campaign, I suggest a regular contact NPC who is generally respected who simply explains that they preferer to be called (he or she or they - pick one) unless they are specifically appearing otherwise.

"Friends this is Chalie Montgomery, they're the Police Special Services Liaison Office. They contract out jobs which are too weird for the city police. Chalie, these are the adventurers I told you about"
"Thanks Fred. Nice to meet you all. Please, call me Chalie. Pronouns they/them unless I'm unequivocally showing to be male or female at the time. The first job I have for you is..."

Oh, and if the players get pronouns wrong, don't even raise the issue. If the characters accidentally get it wrong, Chalie is good with it - it's no big deal. If the PCs (or other characters) deliberatly get it wrong, it can be treated as neither more nor less than rudeness

They're a person the party meet regularly, They're respected within their community and they're in enough authority to tell the party what they want and expect it not to be an issue.

If your art is going to include a significant amount of "cake" (cheese or beef) maybe have a inworld explanation. Maybe people dress up sexy for specific events? Maybe "Sunday Best" is used to show off?
Also, remember that the features humans generally consider attractive correlate pretty well with "young, fit and healthy". And that correlates reasonably with "Likely to succeed at adventuring" so maybe don't stress too much about pretty adventurers. OTOH, experienced adventurers will still be fit but will be older. Don't forget about older women.

Also, when it comes to NPCs romantic lives, describe how relationships look. Don't talk about "Father George and his husband" unless the husband has been introduced as such. "Father George is holding hands with the man he's talking too."
But also "Lady Elsbeth give the man a quick kiss before she heads in to the meeting"

[Grek]

So, while I have had trans, gender fluid, intersex, and homo/bi/pan sexual NPCs in games that I have run, very little of it comes across in the official NPC write-ups or setting design.

I mean, why should it? What are the PCs supposed to even do with that information? The PCs are going to pick up the correct pronouns for an NPC based on which ones the GM uses introducing them, and you've already said that you leave the sexuality of most NPCs ambiguous in cases where you expect the players might try to flirt with them. Unless the NPC's preferences come up as a plot point (Count Dunkirk is secretly the Bishop's gay lover and needs you to distract his wife so she doesn't discover the affair!) it seems like the PCs don't really have much of a reason to care one way or another which NPCs are dating one another off screen. It's like asking if an NPC is left-handed: realistically there's a 10% chance or so they are, but even if they were who cares?

[Talakeal]

Wow, lots of responses.

Which illustrations do you mean? The ones in published fantasy RPGs, or in galleries on ArtStation or DA, or in work you’ve commissioned yourself? Just not clear what you mean here.

Specifically art that I have commissioned myself. Although yeah, that probably applies to modern RPG art in general.

This in itself will be a huge red flag for some people.

True. But exploring that dynamic is one of the central themes of the setting.

Although in this case, I am not sure "colonizing" is really the right term when you are talking about twenty odd refugees whose bloodlines immediately become inexorably mixed with those of the indigenous peoples.

The following is a bad answer, but it is better than most answers:

Use neutral pronouns for everyone unless there is a reason to do otherwise. This can help remove the assumption that everyone is a cis male human from terra.

Everyone has an unlabeled sexuality until after they have sex. This can remove assumptions about sexuality until after 2 characters demonstrate chemistry.

You know, I spent this afternoon writing rules for Lovecraftian abominations without gender, and let me tell you that clear concise writing without using gendered language is freaking hard. I can't imagine trying to do that for an entire book; and as I said earlier I don't know if transgender people really make sense in a world where seamlessly changing sex is possible and nobody is going to look askance at someone who is gender nonconforming.

Now, do keep in mind that I already do use gender neutral language when talking about hypothetical characters rather than specific individuals.

Are you creating this for a set of players or are you trying to make something for theoretically publishing?

Assuming its for the normal group of players you normally post about, why bother? They are not going to care except to possibly belittle your efforts.

So let's assume you are doling it for theoretically publishing.

IME, when I see authors and game creators putting trans, genderfluid, intersex, and so on characters into a setting, they make their sexual identity the sole overwhelming focus of the character and so it becomes self parody at best, preachy holier-than-thou claptrap at worst. I feel that its best when the character can stand on their own identity for reasons other than what their genetalia look like or where they like to put them.

So I prefer to see it more background, subtle and nuanced rather than forced into the narrative loudly and rigorously. Then again, I'm 45 and stopped being titillated by and oversexualizing my roleplaying games twenty odd years ago. In real life, a person's sexual identity is part of who they are, but rarely the overwhelming focus of who they are. Unless they are actively weaponizing their identity or using it as a prop.

Well, yes, I would like to publish someday, and my players aren't ALL jackanapes. Most of my players are fine most of the time, its just that you tend to hear about the ones that aren't...

I totally agree with you, but on the other hand it is nice for people to see representation, and since a lot of people tend to default to "straight white cis-male" unless stated otherwise, absence of evidence starts to look like evidence of absence.

I don't think there is a proper ratio. Draw what you want to draw. The people who are complaining about there being too many? I wouldn't put much stock in their feelings because it sounds like they have their own biases.

Generally, yeah, but I still don't like to offend or alienate people without a damn good reason.

In one case, it was my own father telling me that no girls would ever be interested in playing a game which had "so many pictures of sexy women in it".

A major complication that I can see here is trans identity. Flawless and easily accessible gender confirmation process would basically eliminate the concept of "trans people" as they exist in our world - there'd be none of the difficulty of, for example, a trans woman trying to be accepted as female while still retaining a butch sense of self-expression. While some people will definitely be gratified by this, I'd recommend you retain a positive place in the game for people who identify and express as a different gender than their birth, but are unable or choose not to medically transition.

Yeah, its tough. Currently the best ideas I have are for poor people who can't afford such drastic medical procedures or really religious sects who have tabboos against modifying their body or alchemy in general. Still pretty edge cases that are unlikely to appear as notable NPCs.

A gender-neutral view on society will also need some serious thinking through if the aesthetics - rather than just the technology - of the world resemble the 19th century. Particularly in terms of fashion and personal conduct, which are how we tend to assume one's identity, Victorian and Western society had a strict masculine/feminine divide.

True, but it is often hard to draw the line between fashion that exists because of social roles and fashion that exists because of the natural shape of the body. For example, in a culture where women ride horses you probably wouldn't see a lot of dresses, but I can't imagine a culture where you would see men in corsets.

Now, we don't live in that world. So if you have players who aren't cishet, or if you want your game to appeal to players who aren't cishet and would like to see representation in the media they consume, you will want to find ways to make your game world's nature more broadly apparent in the text. Maybe read books that are praised for representation and see what they do, or research what authors with a good record on that score do in their works?

In fiction or in RPGs?

Honestly I can't think of any RPGs where it doesn't come across as tokenism, heavy handed political message, or an attempt to make a group seem weird and alien.

Got any good recommendations?

In a world where someone's sexuality or gender identity just isn't a big deal, having it as a line item in your notes isn't tokenism: it's like having their eye colour. It's just another thing about them that PCs might or might not care about.

For sexuality, I try and keep it ambiguous so that there are more options for pairings. I don't really see a need to hammer something home.

I don't know, I think putting an AGAB line on NPC writeups feels wrong; like its almost totally irrelevant, and if you had anything like realistic population numbers it would, imo, come across as a lot of wasted ink for one or two token characters.

Still, thanks for putting that out there. I am happy to keep talking about this if you are as its actually something to discuss.

I mean, why should it? What are the PCs supposed to even do with that information? The PCs are going to pick up the correct pronouns for an NPC based on which ones the GM uses introducing them, and you've already said that you leave the sexuality of most NPCs ambiguous in cases where you expect the players might try to flirt with them. Unless the NPC's preferences come up as a plot point (Count Dunkirk is secretly the Bishop's gay lover and needs you to distract his wife so she doesn't discover the affair!) it seems like the PCs don't really have much of a reason to care one way or another which NPCs are dating one another off screen. It's like asking if an NPC is left-handed: realistically there's a 10% chance or so they are, but even if they were who cares?

Its mostly so that people reading the campaign setting don't feel personally underrepresented or like it is a world that has been scrubbed of all its LGBTQ elements, either intentionally or simply for lack of care.

[Duff]

I mean, why should it? What are the PCs supposed to even do with that information? The PCs are going to pick up the correct pronouns for an NPC based on which ones the GM uses introducing them, and you've already said that you leave the sexuality of most NPCs ambiguous in cases where you expect the players might try to flirt with them. Unless the NPC's preferences come up as a plot point (Count Dunkirk is secretly the Bishop's gay lover and needs you to distract his wife so she doesn't discover the affair!) it seems like the PCs don't really have much of a reason to care one way or another which NPCs are dating one another off screen. It's like asking if an NPC is left-handed: realistically there's a 10% chance or so they are, but even if they were who cares?

Also this. Mostly, it doesn't matter. When it does matter, make it incidental, not focal.

[Duff]

True, but it is often hard to draw the line between fashion that exists because of social roles and fashion that exists because of the natural shape of the body. For example, in a culture where women ride horses you probably wouldn't see a lot of dresses, but I can't imagine a culture where you would see men in corsets.

https://www.thecut.com/2015/03/yes-m...e-corsets.html
Also now among the goth crowd
Also, in ancient Crete, young men (and women) bound their waists to appear slimmer

And that's probably not all of the times and places, just the 1st one I googled and 2 I know

Its mostly so that people reading the campaign setting don't feel personally underrepresented or like it is a world that has been scrubbed of all its LGBTQ elements, either intentionally or simply for lack of care.

For this, as in most writing, "show don't tell". Don't say "Same sex marriage is accepted, just include in the "Who's Who" section on NPCs that the queen has a wife or that the young princeling the the only person who calls The Queen "Father"

[Composer99]

In fiction or in RPGs?

Honestly I can't think of any RPGs where it doesn't come across as tokenism, heavy handed political message, or an attempt to make a group seem weird and alien.

Got any good recommendations?

Fiction, methinks. I also don't know of any RPGs where there is much attempt to seamlessly integrate gender identities, other than the old-school binary, into the text, that one paragraph in the D&D rules notwithstanding. Not to say such games don't exist, but they're rather niche if they do.

I have hardly read any fiction since my son was born, so I don't have any specific recommendations, but a quick Google search suggests some good starting points: here, here, or here. (The middle link consists of fantasy & sci-fi books, which is probably a great list for your purposes?)

For sexuality, I try and keep it ambiguous so that there are more options for pairings. I don't really see a need to hammer something home.

I don't know, I think putting an AGAB line on NPC writeups feels wrong; like its almost totally irrelevant, and if you had anything like realistic population numbers it would, imo, come across as a lot of wasted ink for one or two token characters.

Still, thanks for putting that out there. I am happy to keep talking about this if you are as its actually something to discuss.

I wouldn't bother with adding assigned gender at birth, specifically, as a line item to NPCs, unless it's personally important to a particular NPC or for other characters interacting with that NPC.

Instead, since your setting allows for a great deal of gender malleability, it would be worth knowing things like whether an NPC tends to stay in a particular gender lane, for whatever reason, or whether and to what extent an NPC likes to switch things up.

I guess my point is that adding details like that for named or important NPCs, along with details such as their preferred pronouns (whether these are fixed or also vary), helps to "bake" gender diversity into the setting. The point being that you want setting description and game rules to treat gender diversity as something that is normal (in the normative sense and possibly also the statistical sense) to the point of being unremarkable.

By way of example, in the late 1960s, Star Trek was seen as ground-breaking for having a Black woman as part of the "command crew" of the Enterprise. Less than 20 years later, Star Trek media products presented the idea that a Black man or woman might be a starship captain (Captain Terrell in Star Trek II and the unnamed captain of USS Saratoga in Star Trek IV) or even Commander of Starfleet (Admirals Morrow and Cartwright in Star Trek III and IV) as normal, even unremarkable, even though it would be another decade before a Black man became a primary protagonist of a Star Trek TV show.

I wouldn't cite Star Trek as a great example to follow as far as representing gender fluidity goes (not least because I effectively stopped following the franchise about mid-way through Voyager season 5). Heck, given the Klingons of the 1960s show and 1980s movies, I'm not sure I'd cite it as a great example of progressivism on the matter of race. But what I mean by those examples is that pretty early on in the franchise's history, people of colour as plainly-visible, high-level authorities were presented as "yeah, here it is, it's a normal thing, no big deal", which is the kind of feel I imagine you would want to convey about gender diversity, at least as far as NPCs go.

[Ravens_cry]

Should they be there? Absolutely. How open they are is going to vary wildly though. And, as long as the players are comfortable with it, I'm OK having the societies not lining up 1:1 with modern progressive values, even the 'good guys'.

[Batcathat]

Should they be there? Absolutely. How open they are is going to vary wildly though. And, as long as the players are comfortable with it, I'm OK having the societies not lining up 1:1 with modern progressive values, even the 'good guys'.

I agree with this and it's also worth keeping in mind that there are a lot of variations besides "accepts X completely" and "rejects X completely". Like how in some ancient cultures it was totally okay for a young man to have intimate relationships with other men, but they were still expected to grow up and marry a woman. A fantasy world without some of the prejudices and arbitrary roles of the real world can certainly be nice but it might be interesting for them to have some of their own instead.

[Lord Raziere]

Should they be there? Absolutely. How open they are is going to vary wildly though. And, as long as the players are comfortable with it, I'm OK having the societies not lining up 1:1 with modern progressive values, even the 'good guys'.

Yeah thats great and all, just don't expect every player to like those societies, or not destroy them in their own quest to make a better world.

[Ravens_cry]

I agree with this and it's also worth keeping in mind that there are a lot of variations besides "accepts X completely" and "rejects X completely". Like how in some ancient cultures it was totally okay for a young man to have intimate relationships with other men, but they were still expected to grow up and marry a woman. A fantasy world without some of the prejudices and arbitrary roles of the real world can certainly be nice but it might be interesting for them to have some of their own instead.

Yep. Societies are complex. And it can be a lot of fun to work out all their different values, and that includes prejudices.

Yeah thats great and all, just don't expect every player to like those societies, or not destroy them in their own quest to make a better world.

They can try, potentially, that freedom of potentiality is what makes TT RPG so enjoyable. Of course, succeeding is its own question. Mind, that's also why I prefaced it with 'if the player's are comfortable with it'. I find it enjoyable immersing myself in a different headspace, though I know it could be less than enjoyable for many other players.Really, there's a lot of things you need to tweak to comfort and interest levels for a group.

[Segev]

I think you need to decide if this society cares about sex/gender as things people treat as more than cosmetics. Either they have gender roles that care what you identify as, or they do not.

If they do, the cheap and accessible alchemical formula means that it is a matter of personal choice what sax you have. There likely will be ideals of appearance for the styles people wear, and those who don't take care to dress appropriately for the role they choose to present as will be commented on for the faux pas (or worse, depending on the social norms they're flauting and the cruelty of those reacting to it). If people are of a mind to feel like a different sex/gender at different times, they likely take the alchemical potion that suits their mood as needed, and treat dress and behavioral quirks appropriately for the way they choose to present. It probably doesn't warrant more comment than a different hair cut or a new "look" they might be trying. No -fashion related aspects likely just flow naturally from there, again unless they're choosing to go against social norms.

Pronouns in such cases will reflect what they present as, though with the de-emphasis of the permanence of it, getting it "wrong" is probably no worse than misremembering which shoes they're wearing at the gala.

If nobody cares what you identify as, people probably use the potion to have the body that is most convenient for the task or occasion. Pronouns are probably unisex, which is hard to do in English: I would pick one set that is natural to use and have it be universal. Again, physical sec is probably more about practicality (where it matters) and personal stile (where it doesn't).

In either case, people's taste in romantic partners probably influences what sex a person chooses to wear when trying to attract their chosen paramore (or be attractive to a date/spouse). Just like people will try to dress to appeal to those they want to attract IRL. It is just that, thanks to alchemy, physical sex is now one more thing they can "try on."

Those who find a particular sex uncomfortable to wear because it is "just not them" will do so rarely, like a rough and tumble type awkwardky wearing a tux or fancy dress, or somebody used to dumpy and baggy clothes feeling out of place in something revealing, or somebody who usually dresses to the nines having to wear something unfashionable and unflattering and feeling very put out about it.

But it is very likely either way that what you choose is no big deal, and you're either treated as what you present as, or there is no different treatment regardless of presentation.

If the society is one where they truly don't care, then the mix of representation in art probably shows the common expression for whatever is convenient for the subject matter. If they do care, it will depend on the roles being depicted. If the roles don't matter, it will be based on the mood of the subject who posed or the artist who made the work. This could be a matter of aesthetics or fashion, or of iconography (a noble who has a standard "look" might maintain it for all official artistic representations, for example).

[Yora]

I mean, why should it? What are the PCs supposed to even do with that information? The PCs are going to pick up the correct pronouns for an NPC based on which ones the GM uses introducing them, and you've already said that you leave the sexuality of most NPCs ambiguous in cases where you expect the players might try to flirt with them. Unless the NPC's preferences come up as a plot point (Count Dunkirk is secretly the Bishop's gay lover and needs you to distract his wife so she doesn't discover the affair!) it seems like the PCs don't really have much of a reason to care one way or another which NPCs are dating one another off screen. It's like asking if an NPC is left-handed: realistically there's a 10% chance or so they are, but even if they were who cares?

That's been something that bothered me for years with all my fantasy writing until I eventually just gave up.
I don't see putting stories of discrimination into speculative fiction as being inclusive, and I just don't do sex and romance in the kind of stuff that I write or games that I run. Gender identity and sexual orientation just are not topics that are relevant in my works and it doesn't even come up for straight people.

The only way I found to have more inclusion in the stuff I make is to give more attention to female characters in feminine roles. Usually in adventure fiction and RPGs, whatever it is those female background characters and extras are doing is considered irrelevant and uninteresting. But even when the focus of a story is on male lords and generals doing their diplomacy and strategy things, there's always just as many women nearby who are also doing all kinds of things that are just as important to them, and that actually intersect with the things the male "protagonists" are doing all the time.
Even in a setting where the women are not speaking when big declarations are made or treaties are signed, they still were involved significantly in how the male leaders came to decide their own positions. Or unless the setting is a particularly oppressive one where women are not allowed to talk to strangers, when a group of heroes comes to a town and has talks with community leaders, there's not just important information to be gained and useful allies to be made in the lord of the castle and the captain of the guard. By shifting the focus away from battlefields and paying more attention to what happens inside communities, the women in a setting that confines them to feminine roles already become important and relevant.

[BisectedBrioche]

My setting is roughly equivalent to nineteenth century Earth, but far more egalitarian, without rigidly defined gender roles. In addition, alchemy makes seamlessly changing one's biological sex something which is, while not easy or commonplace, something that is achievable for most people.

FWIW, I've had some very specific thoughts about this. Mainly in regards to how cyberpunk settings handle trans issues (often in this manner, but missing a lot of nuance), but also covering fantasy settings where magically aided transitions are possible.

While just being able to easily medically transition would be a massive boon for any trans person, there's a few things settings overlook:

1. The general attitude and treatment of trans people in the narrative.
2. The social aspects of transition.
3. The availability of transition.

And to go into more detail:

It's very easy for a work just to say "'kay, trans people are basically cis", but make transphobic jokes (like trying to use the fact a character transitioned for shock/humour value), or even just outright create a group that transphobic jokes can be reskinned and aimed at (I'm looking at you, Shadowrun elf/orc posers!). Does the setting treat trans people as a group worthy of respect, or does it just "let them off" because the technology's there? Do cis people use it with no issue, or is it something that only works if someone wants it?

Even if someone can just swallow a potion, they still have to come out. If there's already no stigma to transitioning, that's fine, but how do they work themselves out? Will people take them at their word? Can they be vetoed by parents or a spouse? How easy is it for them to change up their wardrobe? What about trans people who don't feel the need to transition medically, or non-binary people? Is there something other than the all-or-nothing approach straight up magic provides? Are they happy for everyone to know their AGAB, or do they move to a new identity on the other side of the world (as trans people were expected to do by medical professionals for much of the 20th century).

Finally, how easy is it for them to access this? "You can transition for slightly less than a used car" is all well and good...for people who can afford a used car (this is especially grating in cyberpunk works). Consider that even in a society that let's people transition without any stigma, there might be costs (not just financial, but in time taken out of their life, adjusting, etc).

Oddly enough despite its other problems with trans rep, Cyberpunk 2072 has a pretty good trans character in this regard. While she has access to the futurist medical tech, she still had to come out, work to afford it, stay in hospital, etc, and puts a trans pride flag on her most prized possession (because, quite frankly, as nice as it is to be given the same respect a cis person would, for a lot of us, it's still a large part of who we are).

[Talakeal]

Good answers. Transhumanist fiction might be a good place to look for further research. I understand a lot of transhumansettings also have similar problems with ableism.

Thinking more, I may have overstated things a bit in my OP. My setting isn't totally free of gender roles, it is just much more egalitarian than real life to the point where I don't think they would ever come up with, say, the modern idea of separating gender from physical sex.

Likewise, alchemy isnt so pervasive that one can just freely chang etheir body like a new hairstyle. The costs, risks, difficulty of finding a talented practitioner, and social stigma involved make it more similar to real life cosmetic surgery; a major life decision but not totally out of reach of anyone but those from extremely poor or conservative backgrounds.

https://www.thecut.com/2015/03/yes-m...e-corsets.html
Also now among the goth crowd
Also, in ancient Crete, young men (and women) bound their waists to appear slimmer

And that's probably not all of the times and places, just the 1st one I googled and 2 I know

I really meant more a full on corset meant to maximize and display cleavage rather than a simple girdle or wist cincher. To put it bluntly, men don’t have breasts and wardrobe needs to take that into account.

[Segev]

Thinking more, I may have overstated things a bit in my OP. My setting isn't totally free of gender roles, it is just much more egalitarian than real life to the point where I don't think they would ever come up with, say, the modern idea of separating gender from physical sex.

Likewise, alchemy isnt so pervasive that one can just freely chang etheir body like a new hairstyle. The costs, risks, difficulty of finding a talented practitioner, and social stigma involved make it more similar to real life cosmetic surgery; a major life decision but not totally out of reach of anyone but those from extremely poor or conservative backgrounds.

In that case, it will depend on how long the alchemy has been around, and how much alchemy in general is stigmatized.

For most people, they'll treat others as whatever they are, physically. Or as what they're presenting as, if they're "pre-transition" and passing effectively. There will still be some awkwardness if the "passing" is revealed to be deceptive, though if the notion of sex changes with alchemy is normalized, then it will likely be treated, at worst, as "well, it's just a matter of time."

One thing to consider is that, if there ARE gender-based roles such as primogenitor, there would be pressure for families in the nobility to ensure a "proper mix" of sexes in their children. The oldest is male. Period. (Or female, if they inherit.) And if something happens to the oldest, and the next-oldest is female, she's expected to transition, unless she has a younger brother to inherit (and even then, there's some tension to make a choice if she's not yet married). Similarly, younger sons who are problematic for inheritance will be turned into girls (or younger daughters into boys, if girls inherit) so they can be married off. It might be that they don't do the transitioning thing unless and until a marriage decision is made, but they will not let birth biology get in the way of a treaty.

To this end, it's quite possible that cross-dressing is common amongst the nobility, especially the children and youths, as they cross-train them in both sets of roles and duties. A proposed marriage between a younger son and an inheriting son might have the younger son not take the potion yet, but still dress in dresses and be expected to act the feminine part up until the betrothal is finalized, at which point the potion is taken and she is a woman. Heck, if a second-born child is already married to a man, but he isn't in line to inherit and she suddenly becomes the heir due to accident befalling her older brother, it might be expected that she and her husband BOTH switch roles and sexes.

So in a sense, this actually could lead to MORE gender dysphoria for socio-political purposes, if the people in question have a personal preference/identity they hold to that clashes with that which their position in society demands.

[Batcathat]

One thing to consider is that, if there ARE gender-based roles such as primogenitor, there would be pressure for families in the nobility to ensure a "proper mix" of sexes in their children. The oldest is male. Period. (Or female, if they inherit.) And if something happens to the oldest, and the next-oldest is female, she's expected to transition, unless she has a younger brother to inherit (and even then, there's some tension to make a choice if she's not yet married). Similarly, younger sons who are problematic for inheritance will be turned into girls (or younger daughters into boys, if girls inherit) so they can be married off. It might be that they don't do the transitioning thing unless and until a marriage decision is made, but they will not let birth biology get in the way of a treaty.

Ooh, I like this idea. Sort of a magical twist on the unfortunate real life method of aborting/abandoning kids of the "wrong" sex. I do love it when fictional worlds explore both the positive and the negative aspects of their ideas.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Yeah, just referring to some pcs with gender neutral pronouns, maybe even as a default, and also have some male npcs mention husbands, and female npcs mentioning wives, and I think that's pretty much the basics.. Funnily enough this happened in the published adventure rotfm where an npc mentioned their husband and I hadn't noticed it on my first reading, felt kinda cool and also definetly not forced.
(although it did provoke some surprised reactions from a party whom I thought wouldn't care but oh well.)

[Cluedrew]

Honestly I can't think of any RPGs where it doesn't come across as tokenism, heavy handed political message, or an attempt to make a group seem weird and alien.

I could make some statements about fiction in general but for systems... what is there to say? I mean the difference between male and female isn't worth encoding in a system nor do I think the difference between cis- and trans- really is either. Maybe with a life-path character generation system it could come up but other than that its up to the player to decide if and how it effects the character mechanically. I suppose there is the setting section could say something but unless there is a particular point being made (which gets into the heavy handed message) why spend words on it?

(because, quite frankly, as nice as it is to be given the same respect a cis person would, for a lot of us, it's still a large part of who we are).

It always strange to me that the end point of all of so many of these things people seem to always put forward "complete erasure" as the solution. Its not a matter of better or worse its just people aren't the same as each other.

[Zhorn]

Ooh, I like this idea. Sort of a magical twist on the unfortunate real life method of aborting/abandoning kids of the "wrong" sex. I do love it when fictional worlds explore both the positive and the negative aspects of their ideas.

Makes sense. If you're going to go the extra distance to draw so much attention to both concepts of diverse gender identities and the notion of gender roles, it makes sense to make such attention mean something within the campaign setting.
Otherwise it just hollow lip service;

DM: "<person-name> is <biological-sex> but identifies as <gender expression>"
PC: "Okay. Is that important to the happenings in the world?"
DM: "..."

Where as with Segev's suggestion it could potentially have a whole lot of meaning and implication within the game, and becomes important information. That way even if a player doesn't share the same real world ideologies on that front, they have a gateway within the game to engage on a level that shares importance with others at the table that do hold such real world ideologies.

[quinron]

Makes sense. If you're going to go the extra distance to draw so much attention to both concepts of diverse gender identities and the notion of gender roles, it makes sense to make such attention mean something within the campaign setting.
Otherwise it just hollow lip service;

DM: "<person-name> is <biological-sex> but identifies as <gender expression>"
PC: "Okay. Is that important to the happenings in the world?"
DM: "..."

Where as with Segev's suggestion it could potentially have a whole lot of meaning and implication within the game, and becomes important information. That way even if a player doesn't share the same real world ideologies on that front, they have a gateway within the game to engage on a level that shares importance with others at the table that do hold such real world ideologies.

I think this has illustrated for me what my issue is with how representation, especially trans representation, is often handled in well-meaning "woke" works.

If a character is trans and being trans is a thing that makes their life complicated in some way, then I understand it being part of their identity; after all, the whole reason there's such attention paid to identity in the real world is that having a marginal identity makes one's life complicated, to put it comically lightly.

But if transition is simple, uncomplicated, and easy to access, and nobody in the setting views trans people as being any different from cis people, then it feels kind of weird to have it called out. Instead of the intended message of, "this character is a woman regardless of what people have thought about her in the past or want to think about her now" - which IME tends to be the desired view that real-life trans women want others to have of them - to feeling more like, "this character is basically a woman, but like... she's not totally a woman, to enough of a degree that I feel it necessary to point out that she's different from cis women."

I dunno, feels iffy to me, but I'm cis; take my views with a whole cellar of salt and ignore them if a trans person says I'm wrong.