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    Default Re: Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    I think this has illustrated for me what my issue is with how representation, especially trans representation, is often handled in well-meaning "woke" works.

    If a character is trans and being trans is a thing that makes their life complicated in some way, then I understand it being part of their identity; after all, the whole reason there's such attention paid to identity in the real world is that having a marginal identity makes one's life complicated, to put it comically lightly.

    But if transition is simple, uncomplicated, and easy to access, and nobody in the setting views trans people as being any different from cis people, then it feels kind of weird to have it called out. Instead of the intended message of, "this character is a woman regardless of what people have thought about her in the past or want to think about her now" - which IME tends to be the desired view that real-life trans women want others to have of them - to feeling more like, "this character is basically a woman, but like... she's not totally a woman, to enough of a degree that I feel it necessary to point out that she's different from cis women."

    I dunno, feels iffy to me, but I'm cis; take my views with a whole cellar of salt and ignore them if a trans person says I'm wrong.
    Firstly; remember there are nonbinary folk, who can't simply disappear via medical transition either way. ;)

    Secondly, being trans is more than a medical procedure. Every trans person has to think carefully about their gender identity and what makes them feel comfortable (far from an end point, medical intervention is just an event in a process that may never end).

    Trans women are women, cis women are women. If the status as cis or trans of either group is irrelevant, you'd just say "woman". If a trans woman and a cis woman drove to the supermarket, bought some groceries, and went home, then "the two women went to the store to buy food" is all the info you need. Much in the same way you wouldn't need to throw in any other traits of the two women (you could use cis and trans to distinguish them, I guess, but that wouldn't tell you much).

    I've told this story here before, but in a recent D&D game, the DM OK'd a trans character. I mentioned this to a friend, and she said "why wouldn't you just play a cis woman?". On the basis of why I'd want problems from my own life in the game. Thing is (aside from the fact the DM promised not to make transphobia a significant thing), this came from a (well meaning) assumption that the ideal of womanhood is cis womanhood, and that's what I aspire to. Why wouldn't I want to be represented in a literal representation of myself in the campaign setting? While my womanhood will always be different to that of a cis woman, there are many different ways woman are women (and men are men, and ways people twist, bent, or break the gender binary), and mind is just as good as the rest without being invalidated.

    The same applies to representation in media. You could certainly create a setting where trans people are moot (whether or not that's realistic), but if your aim is to represent the experiences of trans people positively (that is to say, trans representation), you need to try harder.
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    Default Re: Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings

    Quote Originally Posted by BisectedBrioche View Post
    Trans women are women, cis women are women. If the status as cis or trans of either group is irrelevant, you'd just say "woman". If a trans woman and a cis woman drove to the supermarket, bought some groceries, and went home, then "the two women went to the store to buy food" is all the info you need. Much in the same way you wouldn't need to throw in any other traits of the two women (you could use cis and trans to distinguish them, I guess, but that wouldn't tell you much).
    That is probably how i would handle it in any setting with properly advanced (meaning not just cosmetic or short duration) sex change magic. There is just no significant difference between cis-woman and trans-woman left.

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    Default Re: Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings

    Eh, as much as I'd like that to be true, I think you underestimate people ability to get into conflict over insignificant differences.
    Moreover, not every transwoman wants her genital anatomy altered. There's plenty of other differences in how transwomen transition. Magic would only add greater ease and precision in that.
    Trans women and cis women are both women, even IRL, but even in a magic universe, there still would be differences in flavour.
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    Default Re: Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings

    Quote Originally Posted by BisectedBrioche View Post
    Trans women are women, cis women are women. If the status as cis or trans of either group is irrelevant, you'd just say "woman". If a trans woman and a cis woman drove to the supermarket, bought some groceries, and went home, then "the two women went to the store to buy food" is all the info you need. Much in the same way you wouldn't need to throw in any other traits of the two women (you could use cis and trans to distinguish them, I guess, but that wouldn't tell you much).
    Yeah, which is how I feel it would tend to come across.

    IMO, transition would simply be an event which occurred in one's past. A very important and life changing event, but still something that is in the past. And if I am writing up an NPC, I am generally not going to include that sort of information unless it is directly relevant to who they are now.

    And, coincidentally, as most NPCs who get writeups are villains, trying to do something like that would almost certainly lead to all sorts of transphobic trans=evil associations.

    Quote Originally Posted by BisectedBrioche View Post
    Firstly; remember there are nonbinary folk, who can't simply disappear via medical transition either way. ;)

    Secondly, being trans is more than a medical procedure. Every trans person has to think carefully about their gender identity and what makes them feel comfortable (far from an end point, medical intervention is just an event in a process that may never end).

    I've told this story here before, but in a recent D&D game, the DM OK'd a trans character. I mentioned this to a friend, and she said "why wouldn't you just play a cis woman?". On the basis of why I'd want problems from my own life in the game. Thing is (aside from the fact the DM promised not to make transphobia a significant thing), this came from a (well meaning) assumption that the ideal of womanhood is cis womanhood, and that's what I aspire to. Why wouldn't I want to be represented in a literal representation of myself in the campaign setting? While my womanhood will always be different to that of a cis woman, there are many different ways woman are women (and men are men, and ways people twist, bent, or break the gender binary), and mind is just as good as the rest without being invalidated.

    The same applies to representation in media. You could certainly create a setting where trans people are moot (whether or not that's realistic), but if your aim is to represent the experiences of trans people positively (that is to say, trans representation), you need to try harder.
    Yeah, trans covers a wide spectrum, and its full of gatekeeping. Not sure if I want to derail this thread (and potentially risk its closure) by going much deeper than that.

    That said, I feel that most identities are cultural constructs which, while they have weight and meaning in our world, wouldn't really apply to a fantasy world, and I feel like trying to explore a lot of these concepts in a fantasy world would be like wanting to, say, play a Frenchman to explore one's French background in a Forgotten Realms campaign set on Toril..

    Quote Originally Posted by Duff View Post
    Also, remember that the features humans generally consider attractive correlate pretty well with "young, fit and healthy". And that correlates reasonably with "Likely to succeed at adventuring" so maybe don't stress too much about pretty adventurers. OTOH, experienced adventurers will still be fit but will be older. Don't forget about older women.
    Some people would disagree. Youtuber Lindybeige once criticized RPG art by saying something along the lines of (sorry I can't find the original clip) "Ah yes, of course, young attractive people are the most likely people to be out fighting. Oh wait, my mistake, I meant the LEAST likely people. No wait, I got that wrong again, I meant the SECOND least likely people, the least likely people to go into combat would, of course, be babies."

    I would agree to an extent, although I would imagine in real life adventurers would be rendered pretty unattractive due to the accumulation of injuries. Of course, magical healing might take care of that, and in a realistic setting where it didn't they would probably be pretty close to crippled due to injury and mental trauma after only a few years of adventuring anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Yeah thats great and all, just don't expect every player to like those societies, or not destroy them in their own quest to make a better world.
    Which is a very good thing, as long as the players recognize that they are probably going to have to commit genocide along the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    In that case, it will depend on how long the alchemy has been around, and how much alchemy in general is stigmatized.

    For most people, they'll treat others as whatever they are, physically. Or as what they're presenting as, if they're "pre-transition" and passing effectively. There will still be some awkwardness if the "passing" is revealed to be deceptive, though if the notion of sex changes with alchemy is normalized, then it will likely be treated, at worst, as "well, it's just a matter of time."

    One thing to consider is that, if there ARE gender-based roles such as primogenitor, there would be pressure for families in the nobility to ensure a "proper mix" of sexes in their children. The oldest is male. Period. (Or female, if they inherit.) And if something happens to the oldest, and the next-oldest is female, she's expected to transition, unless she has a younger brother to inherit (and even then, there's some tension to make a choice if she's not yet married). Similarly, younger sons who are problematic for inheritance will be turned into girls (or younger daughters into boys, if girls inherit) so they can be married off. It might be that they don't do the transitioning thing unless and until a marriage decision is made, but they will not let birth biology get in the way of a treaty.

    To this end, it's quite possible that cross-dressing is common amongst the nobility, especially the children and youths, as they cross-train them in both sets of roles and duties. A proposed marriage between a younger son and an inheriting son might have the younger son not take the potion yet, but still dress in dresses and be expected to act the feminine part up until the betrothal is finalized, at which point the potion is taken and she is a woman. Heck, if a second-born child is already married to a man, but he isn't in line to inherit and she suddenly becomes the heir due to accident befalling her older brother, it might be expected that she and her husband BOTH switch roles and sexes.

    So in a sense, this actually could lead to MORE gender dysphoria for socio-political purposes, if the people in question have a personal preference/identity they hold to that clashes with that which their position in society demands.
    Yeah, a transhumanist body-horror dystopia is definitely a very real thing. I don't really think it fits well for my game though, at least for society as large.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    Yeah, just referring to some pcs with gender neutral pronouns, maybe even as a default, and also have some male npcs mention husbands, and female npcs mentioning wives, and I think that's pretty much the basics.. Funnily enough this happened in the published adventure rotfm where an npc mentioned their husband and I hadn't noticed it on my first reading, felt kinda cool and also definetly not forced.
    (although it did provoke some surprised reactions from a party whom I thought wouldn't care but oh well.)
    Yeah, that happens all the time in game. Not so much in the setting writeup though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    I could make some statements about fiction in general but for systems... what is there to say? I mean the difference between male and female isn't worth encoding in a system nor do I think the difference between cis- and trans- really is either. Maybe with a life-path character generation system it could come up but other than that its up to the player to decide if and how it effects the character mechanically. I suppose there is the setting section could say something but unless there is a particular point being made (which gets into the heavy handed message) why spend words on it?

    It always strange to me that the end point of all of so many of these things people seem to always put forward "complete erasure" as the solution. Its not a matter of better or worse its just people aren't the same as each other.
    I am absolutely only talking about the game's fluff, not the crutch.

    Not quite sure what you mean about the second paragraph, as "complete erasure" seems to be what you are advocating for; unless you are simply commenting on the fact that people assume that if they don't see something it must not exist.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2021-02-17 at 03:03 PM.
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    Default Re: Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Which is a very good thing, as long as the players recognize that they are probably going to have to commit genocide along the way.
    Okay, as long as you recognize the players are probably going to leave the game if you make that the bar to clear, because if your response to "I want to legit change this world for the better beyond just keeping status quo by beating back evil" is "kay, commit genocide or fail", I'm never playing with you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    Moreover, not every transwoman wants her genital anatomy altered.
    Sure, but i would assume, the more powerful, risk free and available the magical sex swap is, the less accepting the culture would be of transpeople not using it.
    Last edited by Satinavian; 2021-02-17 at 03:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    Trans women and cis women are both women, even IRL, but even in a magic universe, there still would be differences in flavour.
    That's kind of the point. If I tell a story about Linda and her friend Stacy going to a ski resort, the fact that I'm using words to tell my story (like a TTRPG, and contrasted with a more visual medium like a TV show or video game) means that a lot of details that aren't narratively relevant get left out and offloaded to the listener to fill in. Stacy's hair color and job and trans status tend to get glossed over that way unless they're narratively relevant. (Which, for the benefit of anyone else who comes along browsing this thread, a trans person's ability to pass is far more germane in how people treat them and thus the narrative relevance than the configuration of their genitals is.)

    Which gets to the point of how this affects TTRPG settings. If it's no big deal and some combination of magic making passing trivial and/or society absolutely not caring at all, trans status is rarely if ever brought up. It's offloaded to the players to picture, and most players will rarely assume transness unless it's explicitly mentioned. (Books sometimes have it worse where readers will sometimes ignore a minor tidbit in description and then get upset when that tidbit is revealed on screen.)

    Which leaves us with three options. Don't mention it because it isn't narratively relevant, in which case players will just fill in whatever and practically none of them will fill in "trans". You can play up realistic problems that trans people might face, but that has high risks of making escapist fantasy unfun for someone who wants to play a trans character and also stands a very high risk of being read as an endorsement of those problems and getting you called out as transphobic. Or you can make an active point of calling out how it's totally cool and nobody in this world cares about trans status, in which case it can come off as forced and kind of twee.

    Practically nobody big enough to publish wants to portray realistic hassles because of the risk that someone somewhere will read it as an endorsement of said hassles and cause a major PR headache. That does, however, leave the remaining options as "practical erasure" and "rather twee".

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    Default Re: Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Okay, as long as you recognize the players are probably going to leave the game if you make that the bar to clear, because if your response to "I want to legit change this world for the better beyond just keeping status quo by beating back evil" is "kay, commit genocide or fail", I'm never playing with you.
    You are the one who brought up destroying societies, which is, imo, more or less synonymous with genocide.

    Using violence as a means of forcing social change is, in any realistic setting, going to have a lot of collateral damage, at which point it is really a tossup over whether the world is now a "better place".

    My objection is not to changing the world, its to the idea that violence can solve all of your problems and doesn't just beget more violence in the long run.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    You are the one who brought up destroying societies, which is, imo, more or less synonymous with genocide.

    Using violence as a means of forcing social change is, in any realistic setting, going to have a lot of collateral damage, at which point it is really a tossup over whether the world is now a "better place".

    My objection is not to changing the world, its to the idea that violence can solve all of your problems and doesn't just beget more violence in the long run.
    I meant destroying the governments, not the innocent people ruled by them.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-02-17 at 04:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings

    Quote Originally Posted by BisectedBrioche View Post
    [big post snipped]
    Not sure how much this was pointed at me, but my first post in this thread was specifically about trans erasure worries and ensuring that characters who choose not to medically transition are still accepted in Talakeal's setting.

    Sorry if I came across as being dismissive of representative media; it's mostly just that, given how much trans issues have become a part of my life, it really irks me when it's done badly (which isn't to say it doesn't irk you more, I just know the extent to which it does me). I've read one too many stories where the writer says, to use your example, "the trans woman and the cis woman went to the store" when neither character really has anything to do with anything.
    Last edited by quinron; 2021-02-17 at 05:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings

    So, the question is what are you trying to do
    (priviledge check, cis white man here)
    Are you trying to create a setting free of prejudice gender and sexuality? (No sexism, no homophobia, ect), or are you trying to explore cultural ideas of gender and sexuality within a fantastical setting.

    Assuming the former, and assuming you're mostly interested in making a welcoming setting rather than doing an academic deep-dive into "Well, what aspects of society were influenced by sexism and homophobia, because those would need to be different", it's pretty easy, your biggest danger is going to be accidentally using harmful tropes, even if such tropes are not really a thing in-universe.

    ( I recall some official D&D Module, where they made an effort to include several characters in same-sex relationships. However, because of the nature of the campaign, most allied NPCs you only interacted with in a professional context, so the 'Representation' was basically "You are storming the hideout of the EVIL CULT LEADER! BTW, She has girlfriend!", this happened a few times with the evil NPCs, such that the 'representation' was limited to villains). Make sure that when you're adding diversity into your setting, your not falling into easy traps or stereotyping without meaning to.

    Re: Trans people. Mentioning the ease by which people can transition in the setting fluff is probably enough. If you want some explicit Trans Representation, you can have photographs or documents from when somebody was a child, or have somebody mention changing their name. In the interests of establishing how this works in the setting, you could have the in-universe equivalent of when a modern celebrity comes out as Trans. "The woman formerly known as the Duke of Place would like to announce that she has selected for herself the name Francine Venhouser, Duchess of Place. Please update your address books and invitations accordingly".

    Other options for "Times when it's relevant a character is trans" (Once again, Cis White Man here, so, like, don't take these as guaranteed)

    1) A character who recently transitioned (Medically or otherwise) is selling their old wardrobe and buying a new one.
    2) Paperwork or other bureaucracy that must still be dealt with, even in a world without transphobia.


    also, what's your intended audience here? If this is a setting for a personal game, I'd talk to your group about how they want things handled. If you're hoping to publish, I know there are sensitivity editors out there who can probably help better than a bunch of random people on a forum.
    Last edited by BRC; 2021-02-17 at 05:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    Not sure how much this was pointed at me, but my first post in this thread was specifically about trans erasure worries and ensuring that characters who choose not to medically transition are still accepted in Talakeal's setting.

    Sorry if I came across as being dismissive of representative media; it's mostly just that, given how much trans issues have become a part of my life, it really irks me when it's done badly (which isn't to say it doesn't irk you more, I just know the extent to which it does me). I've read one too many stories where the writer says, to use your example, "the trans woman and the cis woman went to the store" when neither character really has anything to do with anything.
    No callout intended.

    I was just talking about how I felt that a setting where trans people are given the same respect as cis people, and can (if they want to) transition flawlessly will still have ways of explicitly portraying trans people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I meant destroying the governments, not the innocent people ruled by them.
    If there is force involved destroying the "government" without destroying a lot of people is incredibly hard to do. Additionally Ravens_cry's first post (and the next post too) spoke about societies, which is kinda the point - if someone is harmed, if a certain group of people is oppressed there is no guarantee that there is any organized group of people to blame for that (each and every separate incident has individual perpetrators, my position is not that "nobody is guilty"). And you spoke about destroying societies, not governments.

    But even when it's specifically government - do you really expect TTRPG players to overthrow each that "is not lining up 1:1 with modern values"? Like there is a very widespread and respected modern value of democracy and power of the people in general. If there is a monarchy or some sort of hereditary oligarchy which is not 100% Platonic perfect form where ruler think only about well-being of the subjects - do you expect the players try to overthrow it even in conditions where there is no danger that some outside enemy will use the temporary disorder to their own goals?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    That said, I feel that most identities are cultural constructs which, while they have weight and meaning in our world, wouldn't really apply to a fantasy world, and I feel like trying to explore a lot of these concepts in a fantasy world would be like wanting to, say, play a Frenchman to explore one's French background in a Forgotten Realms campaign set on Toril.
    I feel the need to point that there also identities that do have roots in things like biology and are then built-on/amplified/twisted/whatever by culture. The social elements might be different (or less) but they probably would still exist. Unless of course you don't want them too, its your setting.

    And of course national pride, and even countries with similar national values, can exist in fantasy settings to.

    I am absolutely only talking about the game's fluff, not the crutch.

    Not quite sure what you mean about the second paragraph, [...]
    I think you also misunderstood the first paragraph as well because I think there is a big difference between "doesn't need to be covered mechanically" (you know with numbers and definite options) and "exists in characters" (or even "is important"). And I was more going for the first. Not everything about a person has to go on the character sheet. Some things aren't part of the game, some things can't really be covered by hard rules and others would make too small of a change.

    But also going back: You can't find fiction with good gender and sexuality representation? (Double checks.) Oh just role-playing game settings. Honestly I haven't read a lot of setting material that tells me even what school is like for most people so it would seem kind of odd. Mind you I have never dug into Forgotten Realms, Creation or whatever Eclipse Phase's setting is called so maybe its out their and I just haven't read it. Most settings just don't go into cultural details where it could be brought up... which might be a larger issue in some regards. That being said you could probably slip in a paragraph or more about this when you introduce the alchemy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BisectedBrioche View Post
    No callout intended.

    I was just talking about how I felt that a setting where trans people are given the same respect as cis people, and can (if they want to) transition flawlessly will still have ways of explicitly portraying trans people.
    Cool - and fully agreed. I just felt a little nervous; I'm very conscious that I'm wading into a topic where I care about it, and I've heard a lot of firsthand accounts, but I don't have firsthand experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    In one case, it was my own father telling me that no girls would ever be interested in playing a game which had "so many pictures of sexy women in it".
    Since your concern is about marketing to women, I'm dubious about the reliability of your dad's opinions.

    If you're really concerned about it, you could just whip up a focus group. Show the art to a bunch of women who are already interested in these sorts of games (they shouldn't be too hard to find around here) and tell them you're interested in their feedback without telling them that you're specifically wondering about the gender ratio. You could even just show the art to a bunch of people regardless of gender, but take special note of the women's responses. If they're having trouble articulating responses, maybe have a list of questions about their thoughts on it and stick the gender ratio question in the middle.

    My only worry would be that if you're posting that on these boards or any other boards you frequent, people who follow your posts might be coming into the focus group already knowing what you're looking for. I'd recommend either going to a board you don't frequent or using an alt account.
    Last edited by quinron; 2021-02-17 at 09:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings

    The relevant issue here would be The Male Gaze (warning: TV Tropes link) as a concept.

    Do said pictures of women make us feel seen, or are they there for the consumption of a presumed male audience (and in the latter case, is that still a dealbreaker, and is it a dealbreaker for every woman?).

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    Cool - and fully agreed. I just felt a little nervous; I'm very conscious that I'm wading into a topic where I care about it, and I've heard a lot of firsthand accounts, but I don't have firsthand experience.
    Reminds me of a time I was in a discussion about trans rights with someone who kept smugly saying "can we get some primary sources on this?".

    I pointed out my personal anecdotes were a primary source.
    Last edited by BisectedBrioche; 2021-02-18 at 06:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings

    Quote Originally Posted by BisectedBrioche View Post
    The relevant issue here would be The Male Gaze (warning: TV Tropes link) as a concept.

    Do said pictures of women make us feel seen, or are they there for the consumption of a presumed male audience (and in the latter case, is that still a dealbreaker, and is it a dealbreaker for every woman?).
    It is more complicated.

    There is not a lot of money in RPGs and hardly any of the smaller brand ever pay artists market rate. In return (because the artist does it partly for favor/hobby) artists for smaller RPGs tend to get a lot more freedom than would be expected for commissioned work.

    Turns out a lot of artists actually like portraying good looking or even sexy characters. I know of several small RPG publishers trying to avoid sexualisation and ending up having problems finding artists doing so or convincing those they had worked with so far. At least without actually paying proper prices. Surprisingly those problems arose with female artists even more often than with male ones but that might be coincidence. Don't know enough cases for proper statistics on that.


    So when Takalael states that his commissioned artwork ends up with far more cheesecake than he asked for, yes, that is utterly to be expected.


    Personally i like 50:50 men/women on illustrations if the society depicted is meant to be really equal. But i don't claim to be more than a single data point for this matter.
    Last edited by Satinavian; 2021-02-18 at 07:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satinavian View Post
    It is more complicated.

    There is not a lot of money in RPGs and hardly any of the smaller brand ever pay artists market rate. In return (because the artist does it partly for favor/hobby) artists for smaller RPGs tend to get a lot more freedom than would be expected for commissioned work.

    Turns out a lot of artists actually like portraying good looking or even sexy characters. I know of several small RPG publishers trying to avoid sexualisation and ending up having problems finding artists doing so or convincing those they had worked with so far. At least without actually paying proper prices. Surprisingly those problems arose with female artists even more often than with male ones but that might be coincidence. Don't know enough cases for proper statistics on that.


    So when Takalael states that his commissioned artwork ends up with far more cheesecake than he asked for, yes, that is utterly to be expected.


    Personally i like 50:50 men/women on illustrations if the society depicted is meant to be really equal. But i don't claim to be more than a single data point for this matter.
    An interesting point, but I'm not sure I understand what it has to do with what I just said?
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    The "Male Gaze" as known from film and TV is associated with producing for a male audience and seen as deliberate decision of producer/director. That is not what can be assumed for pictures of sexualized women in RPG materials.
    Furthermore you wrote about whether it is a dealbreaker specifically for women. As if men were generally assumed to like such art and women not. Which is also something that seems to not really be the case. People are far more complicated, both men and women.
    Last edited by Satinavian; 2021-02-19 at 08:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satinavian View Post
    The "Male Gaze" as known from film and TV is associated with producing for a male audience and seen as deliberate decision of producer/director. That is not what can be assumed for pictures of sexualized women in RPG materials.
    Furthermore you wrote about whether it is a dealbreaker specifically for women. As if men were generally assumed to like such art and women not. Which is also something that seems to not really be the case. People are far more complicated, both men and women.
    The point I was responding to was whether or not such images would put women off a given game; how it would affect mens' interest wasn't even something I was talking about, let alone making assumptions of.

    My point was that whether or not artwork of attractive women in TTRPGs appeals to women depends on the artwork itself, which I believe is the same point you were trying to make about my post. Which is why I was confused.
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    While a firm and sapphic admirer of the female form, too much T&A can get a wee bit much, especially if it conflicts with the rest of the tone. As an example, let's say you are doing a Conan style setting, where just about everyone is at least athletically toned. There, it totally fits to go pretty bonkers. On the other hand, if in the setting the male and masculine characters dress fairly rationally, dressed approximately for the weather, for example, while the women and feminine characters are depicted like they are on their way to swing on a pole, it can feels gratuitous. Another problem I have is when there's only seemingly one kind of female and feminine figure drawn, while the men are allowed to be much more diverse, like the only reason for women to exist in the 'verse is to be some minor variation on current Western, stereotypical straight male, ideals of sexy.
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    A few thoughts:
    • I am a big believer that you should describe NPCs as they appear to the PC(s) and only mention the things that the PC would likely notice about them (which may appear by character or by setting, particularly if their presented gender doesn't match their sex). In you setting's case, i take it that the alchemy would change the character to their preferred sex so that they are indistinguishable from people who were born that way. That means that the PCs would probably never know if anyone were trans or not (unless they became close to that person and they revealed it), so the world is likely to be indistinguishable from one where there are no tans people.
    • if you are wanting to include other gender identities into your setting, remember that such people are likely to be small minority of the population (especially since all the trans people are indistinguishable from binary). If you have 100 NPC's, on average one might be have a non-binary gender identity other than trans. Having them around every corner would seem forced and strange. Unless that is you want to make a point that fewer people are gender binary than in the real world, and if that's the case I think it's something you should specify upfront. As to describing them, as I mentioned above, is there something about their gender that the PCs would notice in particular? It may well be as you describe for previous games, none of the characters non-binaryness comes across.
    • You mention you want your society to be egalitarian. Think about whether this includes women being equally represented in strength based jobs. If you do, how do they manage - is it only the strongest of them, or is biology different in your world so women are just as strong as men on average? I know some people prefer their fantasy to handwave real world differences such as these - perhaps magic?
    • Family is something lots of people will tend to talk about when getting to know someone. so it is probably something worth including some notes on.
    • As to sexual preference if you are wanting the DM to make an NPC's sexual preference compatible with whoever shows an interest in them, you should say so somewhere, otherwise some DMs will assume that they are straight.
    • I don't think there is a proper ratio for female to males in art. I can think of three perspectives though. First you can make it 50/50 as you mention. Second, you can make it reflect the setting you are in - now if your setting is a whole world this will probably be 50/50, but some settings (eg single sex prisons) will skew hard to one gender. Third, and this is what I suggest if you are wanting this to be popular, you can cater to your target market - that is think about who you expect to be interested in your setting, then think about the gender ratio that will appeal to them.
    • I think you should sexualise some characters but not all. After all, most attractive people tend to sexualise themselves somewhat. Consider some people of both genders though - for every maiden with with chainmail bikini, add a well muscled shirtless guy. Some people will still criticise, but that's unavoidable. Sex sells, that's why most commercial media relies on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I meant destroying the governments, not the innocent people ruled by them.
    I get what you mean, I just don't think it is that simple on either in IC or OOC level.

    On an OOC level, the GM and the players need to work together to develop and change the setting, either side trying to strong arm it is not going to go well. On a fiction level, changing societies through violent means is really hard, in a realistic setting there isn't going to be a clean line between the oppressors and the oppressed and simply killing the heads of state likely won't change the underlying cultural assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Are you trying to create a setting free of prejudice gender and sexuality? (No sexism, no homophobia, ect), or are you trying to explore cultural ideas of gender and sexuality within a fantastical setting.

    Assuming the former, and assuming you're mostly interested in making a welcoming setting rather than doing an academic deep-dive into "Well, what aspects of society were influenced by sexism and homophobia, because those would need to be different", it's pretty easy, your biggest danger is going to be accidentally using harmful tropes, even if such tropes are not really a thing in-universe.
    I do want the game to be an examination of psychology and society, yes.

    But it is also a fantasy world with strong transhumanism elements.

    The problem is trying to keep it somewhat grounded and relatable rather than completely alien to the players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    While a firm and sapphic admirer of the female form, too much T&A can get a wee bit much, especially if it conflicts with the rest of the tone. As an example, let's say you are doing a Conan style setting, where just about everyone is at least athletically toned. There, it totally fits to go pretty bonkers. On the other hand, if in the setting the male and masculine characters dress fairly rationally, dressed approximately for the weather, for example, while the women and feminine characters are depicted like they are on their way to swing on a pole, it can feels gratuitous. Another problem I have is when there's only seemingly one kind of female and feminine figure drawn, while the men are allowed to be much more diverse, like the only reason for women to exist in the 'verse is to be some minor variation on current Western, stereotypical straight male, ideals of sexy.
    Yeah, I much prefer the former.

    I personally find the elaborate costumes that you see on a lot of RPG covers and, especially, in mobile game advertising, to be really silly and a big turnoff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    [*]You mention you want your society to be egalitarian. Think about whether this includes women being equally represented in strength based jobs. If you do, how do they manage - is it only the strongest of them, or is biology different in your world so women are just as strong as men on average? I know some people prefer their fantasy to handwave real world differences such as these - perhaps magic?
    In the distant past, the setting made extensive use of genetic engineering.

    One of the results is that women are much closer in size and strength to men, to the point where the average woman has a greater lower body strength and the average man has greater upper body strength, but individual variation is far more important than sex.

    The mechanics of carrying a child for nine months and then nursing it for several years, as well as the ability of a single man to impregnate many women in times of catastrophe remain unchanged however, and imo this likely has a far bigger effect on gender roles than strength ever did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    [*]As to sexual preference if you are wanting the DM to make an NPC's sexual preference compatible with whoever shows an interest in them, you should say so somewhere, otherwise some DMs will assume that they are straight.
    That's more of a personal preference for how I run a game than something that is baked into the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    [*]I don't think there is a proper ratio for female to males in art. I can think of three perspectives though. First you can make it 50/50 as you mention. Second, you can make it reflect the setting you are in - now if your setting is a whole world this will probably be 50/50, but some settings (eg single sex prisons) will skew hard to one gender. Third, and this is what I suggest if you are wanting this to be popular, you can cater to your target market - that is think about who you expect to be interested in your setting, then think about the gender ratio that will appeal to them.[*]I think you should sexualise some characters but not all. After all, most attractive people tend to sexualise themselves somewhat. Consider some people of both genders though - for every maiden with with chainmail bikini, add a well muscled shirtless guy. Some people will still criticize, but that's unavoidable. Sex sells, that's why most commercial media relies on it.[/LIST]
    There is also the issue of how one even goes about sexualizing a male. Amongst game criticism, the standard ultra feminine woman with an hourglass figure is universally seen as a male sex fantasy, while the standard muscular bearded violent super manly guy is seen as a male power fantasy.

    I personally prefer roguish men with a swimmers build and tall, full figured, athletic women in dominant positions; and so if I am going for "sexy" that is what I will ask for, usually just in the most revealing clothing that is practical for the role; but I know I am absolutely not the norm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    So, while I have had trans, gender fluid, intersex, and homo/bi/pan sexual NPCs in games that I have run, very little of it comes across in the official NPC write-ups or setting design.
    TBH, this is about where I'd leave it, though you might think about how inheritance works. If your players want characters who delve into it, that's fine, but I would not stress it as a DM unless its something we, as a table, want to talk about.

    As a designer? Think about how society deals with societal things. The acceptance of transgender individuals and same-sex relationships is pretty easy... "Amy was named Bob when she was born, but is Amy now" is the sort of thing that might be noted in a biography or genealogy, but would not be socially noticed if there's no prohibition against it or constricted gender roles. However, the transfer of property (and title) is going to be a big deal.

    If Duke Bob is married to Charles, where do Duke Bob's heirs come from? The real-world standard is Bob's kids, but does your society accept that adopted children will be heirs? Is it common to designate other family as an heir? Both were common in the Roman Republic and Empire, but fell out in medieval Europe.

    On a related note, what is the proper ratio of male to female characters in artwork? A common sense answer would obviously be 50/50, I have had several people comment about how there are already too many drawings of women despite them only making up about 40% of the artwork.
    To go further down that rabbit hole, do you think male gamers are more or less likely to be interested in a game with lots of female representation in the artwork? And vice versa?
    I'd say 50/50 is best. There've been studies that show that a lot of folks tend to read "equal representation" as "there are too many women", but I'm in favor of changing that. (I'm reminded of the initial pilot of Star Trek, which had a woman as Number One, and everyone wondered why she was being so bossy).

    And, a little deeper, does it matter how sexualized the art is? I try and avoid out and out cheesecake (its tough, I have found that a lot of artists want to draw it even if not requested), but most of the illustrations are of conventionally attractive people regardless of gender. Likewise, while I am trying to display a wide array of clothing styles and body types, a large portion of the illustrations do depict people who are scantily clad or with unrealistic physiques.
    This comes down to art direction... you gotta hire artists who do the style you're looking for, and tell your artists what you want. If I hire Frank Frazetta, I'm gonna get scantily clad, buff people, unless I specifically tell him I want something else... but why, then, am I hiring Frank Frazetta? Why not hire someone else entirely, who is great at depicting black women in Tang-era Chinese costume? And if I tell my artist I want a black woman in Tang-era costume, and they give me "Elle McPherson, colored sorta tan, and in a kimono", they're not giving me what I've asked for, and saying "No, you got specific instructions which you ignored, and I'm not paying for this" is perfectly reasonable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I get what you mean, I just don't think it is that simple on either in IC or OOC level.

    On an OOC level, the GM and the players need to work together to develop and change the setting, either side trying to strong arm it is not going to go well. On a fiction level, changing societies through violent means is really hard, in a realistic setting there isn't going to be a clean line between the oppressors and the oppressed and simply killing the heads of state likely won't change the underlying cultural assumptions.
    Why does it "need" to be realistic?

    this hobby is full of escapism just like a lot of fantasy fiction is. we take shortcuts to make things more fun all the time. I see no difference between my desire and that of those who want to kill orcs for being chaotic evil, yet no one bats an eye at the latter.

    also more importantly to this thread, if a transgender person wants to use fantasy to escape to a world where the transition is easy, what is wrong with that? what makes taking shortcuts on this any different from taking shortcuts on any other details we do in roleplaying?

    everyone has to decide for themselves what is acceptable escapism vs. an issue that needs to explored through suffering and complexity.

    if always realistic all the time was the right answer, fantasy wouldn't even exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Why does it "need" to be realistic?

    this hobby is full of escapism just like a lot of fantasy fiction is. we take shortcuts to make things more fun all the time. I see no difference between my desire and that of those who want to kill orcs for being chaotic evil, yet no one bats an eye at the latter.

    also more importantly to this thread, if a transgender person wants to use fantasy to escape to a world where the transition is easy, what is wrong with that? what makes taking shortcuts on this any different from taking shortcuts on any other details we do in roleplaying?

    everyone has to decide for themselves what is acceptable escapism vs. an issue that needs to explored through suffering and complexity.

    if always realistic all the time was the right answer, fantasy wouldn't even exist.
    It doesn't.

    But the idea that the DM is required to allow the PCs an unrealistically easy victory is what I am objecting to.

    Also, trying to avoid RL politics, but the fantasy that you live in a world where problems can easily be solved with violence does have some unfortunate implications in the real world; sort of like when someone at Bioware decided that homosexuals didn't exist in Star Wars; it is a fantasy world, but ignoring realism to serve a certain sort of politically charged fantasy can easily be harmful and / or offensive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    It doesn't.

    But the idea that the DM is required to allow the PCs an unrealistically easy victory is what I am objecting to.

    Also, trying to avoid RL politics, but the fantasy that you live in a world where problems can easily be solved with violence does have some unfortunate implications in the real world; sort of like when someone at Bioware decided that homosexuals didn't exist in Star Wars; it is a fantasy world, but ignoring realism to serve a certain sort of politically charged fantasy can easily be harmful and / or offensive.
    Look if you want it more detailed, all your going to make shift into is teaching trickster mode where I destroy the society by being a trickster-teacher who destroys their assumptions until they start being good by people by themselves while killing anyone who won't listen otherwise, so I can then humiliate AND kill anyone who stands in my way. possibly having someone I trust make any laws needed for justice to get done. I'll do whatever tiresome hoops needed to jump through.

    my main point is if you make things against player values some of them are going to destroy whatever unfairness they want, no matter much you claim its unbreakable or how much you want to drag it out. there is no "just apart of the setting, can't be changed". all your point is "but look at all these hoops I want you to jump through!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Look if you want it more detailed, all your going to make shift into is teaching trickster mode where I destroy the society by being a trickster-teacher who destroys their assumptions until they start being good by people by themselves while killing anyone who won't listen otherwise, so I can then humiliate AND kill anyone who stands in my way. possibly having someone I trust make any laws needed for justice to get done. I'll do whatever tiresome hoops needed to jump through.

    My main point is if you make things against player values some of them are going to destroy whatever unfairness they want, no matter much you claim its unbreakable or how much you want to drag it out. there is no "just apart of the setting, can't be changed". all your point is "but look at all these hoops I want you to jump through!"
    No, you can't. Trying to get into a **** measuring contest with the GM will never work out. The *only* thing a player can do without GM buy in is leave the game in a huff.

    To use one of my old gaming horror stories, I once had a PC going on about how he could beat any NPC in the setting and literally getting up at the table and singing "Anything you can do I can do better," one session. A few weeks later, he picked a fight with an NPC who was much stronger than him, who literally laughed off his attacks and retaliated. Then the player spent the next few hours pouting and telling me that I had no right to "mock him and kill his character because he doesn't care about the lore of my stupid world."

    But yeah, my compulsive need to respond to everything is really starting to derail the thread. At this point this line of discussion is boiling down to "No uh, you are!"
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2021-02-20 at 05:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    No, you can't. Trying to get into a **** measuring contest with the GM will never work out. The *only* thing a player can do without GM buy in is leave the game in a huff.
    No, trying the GM trying to shutdown the players at every turn will never work out, the only thing a GM can do without player buy in is wish they had a game at all.
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    If a GM includes oppressive cultures or governments in their setting—especially if they oppress groups that the PCs(or players) belong to—and lets the PCs get to a level of power where the PCs are capable of fighting these governments or cultures and the GM doesn't have plans to either let the PCS do that or explain why they can't beyond just "no, you can't, cna't be done," then the GM has failed utterly in their job.

    If my Chaotic Good Barbarian gets to level 20 and can't depose the king of so-called civilization who is pressing and hurting innocent people for reasons my Barbarian finds stupid, not just not having the opportunity but being physically prevented from doing so, even if her level 20 Sorcerer, Druid, and Brd friends agree with her, then the GM has made a mistake.

    And that goes double if the oppressive King is intended to be seen as a "good guy."
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