LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

[TaiLiu]

Thanks! The support is going to make a big difference if it takes me a while to save up. The new surgeon has good results and I really like him, we connected well so I think I will stick with him, it seems he's around mid-range for prices but I'm willing to pay a bit more for someone I really trust.
I'm looking for a job right now but I graduated from a UX/UI bootcamp recently and the average income in that field is a lot higher than I'm used to. I don't plan on moving to a more expensive apartment or change my lifestyle or anything so if I do get a job I will be able to save up much faster than, well, at any time in my life up till now, so I'm going to focus on that and I might be able to get surgery this year. I will let you all know if it happens and how it goes.

And if things change I will let you know as well of course. Even with the greatest boyfriend I could ever have hoped for, the support from this forum makes a big difference too, and the fact some of you have gone through similar things helps me feel less "weird" and more valid.

Looking forward to it. Good luck.

[Talakeal]

I just had a gang of TERFs on twitter calling me a misogynist for wanting to be a woman.

Like... I hate women so much that I desperately want to be one? What kind of sense does that make?

Anyone else ever experience something like that?

[Rater202]

I just had a gang of TERFs on twitter calling me a misogynist for wanting to be a woman.

Like... I hate women so much that I desperately want to be one? What kind of sense does that make?

Anyone else ever experience something like that?

TERFs, like all bigots, are inherently illogical. They make up nonsensical arguments to justify their irrational hatred so they don't have to educate themselves on the facts and admit their ignorance and said arguments are just as irrational as they are: Only a fool or a lunatic wouldn't be able to see the gaping holes in their logic just from a cursory examination.

Assuming that they actually believe that and aren't just trying to get attention by harassing people.

Either way, the answer is the same: Block them. Don't even give them the courtesy of a "go **** yourselves." Any response you could give them they'll take as validation.

[Mx.Silver]

I just had a gang of TERFs on twitter calling me a misogynist for wanting to be a woman.

Like... I hate women so much that I desperately want to be one? What kind of sense does that make?

Anyone else ever experience something like that?

This is a common tactic of modern bigotry movements: claiming that it's the people they're discriminating against who are "the real bigots". The "I know you are, but what am I?" approach, as it were. For transphobes, who've spent the last few years trying to claim their bigotry is, somehow, 'protecting women and girls' (despite all evidence to the contrary, the amount of open misogynists and anti-feminists who've jumped on the transphobia bandwagon with no difficulty, etc.), this means that people who take issue with it can be called misogynists.
How much any of them actually believe it, versus how much of it is a PR gimmick or just something to troll people who disgree with them, is anyone's guess, but it doesn't really make much difference in terms of how they act and in all cases anyone doing it is just not worth engaging with.

[Anonymouswizard]

I mean, atm I'm more concerned with the 'we must protect trans people from themselves' line of argument, because it's so pervasive over here that it's depressing. As in 'I only talk about being GQ with half of my parents because internalised transphobia is that strong over here'. I know people who believe that trans people didn't exist before GAS was developed, which is its own can of worms.

Can't really go much further on the topic than that though.

[Lentrax]

So...

For those of you who liked Rain by Jocelyn Samara, she has recently started her new comic, My Impossible Soulmate.

It is still at the time I post this, under 30 pages in, but here is a link to the Warnings page

Hopefully you all enjoy it!

[TaiLiu]

I just had a gang of TERFs on twitter calling me a misogynist for wanting to be a woman.

Like... I hate women so much that I desperately want to be one? What kind of sense does that make?

Anyone else ever experience something like that?

I think the original argument comes from Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire, which argues that trans women reinforce gender stereotypes and "rape women's bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact."

It "makes sense" in that it's logically consistent. But obviously the argument is transmisogynistic, morally disgusting, and wildly untrue.

Either way, the answer is the same: Block them. Don't even give them the courtesy of a "go **** yourselves." Any response you could give them they'll take as validation.

I think this is right and wise advice.

I mean, atm I'm more concerned with the 'we must protect trans people from themselves' line of argument, because it's so pervasive over here that it's depressing. As in 'I only talk about being GQ with half of my parents because internalised transphobia is that strong over here'. I know people who believe that trans people didn't exist before GAS was developed, which is its own can of worms.

"Protect the kids," right? Old, nasty argument.

So...

For those of you who liked Rain by Jocelyn Samara, she has recently started her new comic, My Impossible Soulmate.

It is still at the time I post this, under 30 pages in, but here is a link to the Warnings page

Hopefully you all enjoy it!

Pretty neat! I'm not sure I'm interested in Samara's work, but Rain was one of the first webcomics I knew that starred trans people. Cool that she's working on more.

[halfeye]

I think the original argument comes from Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire, which argues that trans women reinforce gender stereotypes and "rape women's bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact."

It "makes sense" in that it's logically consistent. But obviously the argument is transmisogynistic, morally disgusting, and wildly untrue.

I'm just confused by this case:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64419533

It's a rapist who started transitioning while awaiting trial, was found guilty, and then isn't being sent to a women's prison.

It's a one off, but apparently it happened.

[BisectedBrioche]

What's that case got to do with anything that's been said?

[Anonymouswizard]

I "Protect the kids," right? Old, nasty argument.

I really don't want to get into it too much, but that's not the only one I've seen voiced. I've seen serious 'protect the adults' arguments. Also a lot of arguments for trans erasure over 'fairness' (which I really, really don't want to get into).

ETA: as to the BBC article, honestly it doesn't surprise me at this point, and barely registers. After the recent court decision and all the other similar things that have happened over here recently, it's not shocking that this argument has reared it's head again.

[Talakeal]

I think the original argument comes from Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire, which argues that trans women reinforce gender stereotypes and "rape women's bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact."

It "makes sense" in that it's logically consistent. But obviously the argument is transmisogynistic, morally disgusting, and wildly untrue.

That is such a hard quote to parse that I am not even sure if I can go about agreeing or disagreeing with it, let alone analyzing its logical consistency.

[BisectedBrioche]

That is such a hard quote to parse that I am not even sure if I can go about agreeing or disagreeing with it, let alone analyzing its logical consistency.

The long and the short of it is that at some point a fringe group in second wave feminism were so desperate to cling to a binary view of sex, they rejected the idea of gender entirely and created wild conspiracy theories that cis women would somehow be "replaced" by the technologies that had enabled medical transition.

The premise it's remained logically consistent with is "trans women are monsters invented by modern science", and they were able to spend decades doing that openly because people just believed any old thing about trans folk until the 2010's.

I suppose, as cruel as they're being now, it's the last gasp of a movement that's realised it no longer has mainstream support to fall back on.

[theangelJean]

at some point a fringe group in second wave feminism were so desperate to cling to a binary view of sex, they rejected the idea of gender entirely

... I'm clearly going to have to educate myself on this erroneous argument (the better to argue against it) because I don't even follow the logic. Maybe it's just because my starting point is "biological sex is itself a spectrum" and I don't know where to even go from the opposite point of view, but I have no idea how they get from there to "gender doesn't exist".

Any tips on where to start reading? Sources that dissect the argument would be even better.

[BisectedBrioche]

... I'm clearly going to have to educate myself on this erroneous argument (the better to argue against it) because I don't even follow the logic. Maybe it's just because my starting point is "biological sex is itself a spectrum" and I don't know where to even go from the opposite point of view, but I have no idea how they get from there to "gender doesn't exist".

Any tips on where to start reading? Sources that dissect the argument would be even better.

I'm not really sure where to even begin there (the idea that men and women are immutable categories just sort of appeared in the Victorian era, so it's not as if anyone needed to invent it in the 20th century); it's hard to argue the logic in an illogical argument, even to play devil's advocate. I'd recommend Whipping Girl by Julia Serano for the history of trans positive feminism, and how it interacted with trans exclusive feminist movements.

[Anonymouswizard]

... I'm clearly going to have to educate myself on this erroneous argument (the better to argue against it) because I don't even follow the logic. Maybe it's just because my starting point is "biological sex is itself a spectrum" and I don't know where to even go from the opposite point of view, but I have no idea how they get from there to "gender doesn't exist".

Any tips on where to start reading? Sources that dissect the argument would be even better.

The logic is sound, but the assumptions are faulty. Therefore the final conclusion is bad. It's like any process, if you input garbage you're not going to receive anything but garbage.

The particular faulty assumptions here are, I believe, 'sex/gender is solely related to genes/genitals' and 'sex/gender is binary'. The latter is just a particularly common faulty assumption, down to 'scientifically there are two genders' rubbish. But if you start from those two assumptions and try to use logic to get to a reason why people socially and physically transition you get to something along the lines of 'to gain access to women only spaces', and from there it's a short trip to 'transwomen are abusers'. Unfortunately I can't explain in more detail, as I don't know formal logic, but it's a pretty basic GIGO case.

[theangelJean]

I'm not really sure where to even begin there (the idea that men and women are immutable categories just sort of appeared in the Victorian era, so it's not as if anyone needed to invent it in the 20th century); it's hard to argue the logic in an illogical argument, even to play devil's advocate. I'd recommend Whipping Girl by Julia Serano for the history of trans positive feminism, and how it interacted with trans exclusive feminist movements.

Thank you! I'll take a look.

The logic is sound, but the assumptions are faulty. Therefore the final conclusion is bad. It's like any process, if you input garbage you're not going to receive anything but garbage.

The particular faulty assumptions here are, I believe, 'sex/gender is solely related to genes/genitals' and 'sex/gender is binary'. The latter is just a particularly common faulty assumption, down to 'scientifically there are two genders' rubbish. But if you start from those two assumptions and try to use logic to get to a reason why people socially and physically transition you get to something along the lines of 'to gain access to women only spaces', and from there it's a short trip to 'transwomen are abusers'. Unfortunately I can't explain in more detail, as I don't know formal logic, but it's a pretty basic GIGO case.

So basically, "real reasons that real people have for transitioning don't exist" so any rubbish they can make up must be the "real" reason?

[TaiLiu]

I'm just confused by this case:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64419533

It's a rapist who started transitioning while awaiting trial, was found guilty, and then isn't being sent to a women's prison.

It's a one off, but apparently it happened.

What's that case got to do with anything that's been said?

Yeah, I'm confused, too. You may be referring to Raymond's quote about rape, but I think Raymond is using the term loosely. And inappropriately, though Raymond probably disagrees.

I really don't want to get into it too much, but that's not the only one I've seen voiced. I've seen serious 'protect the adults' arguments. Also a lot of arguments for trans erasure over 'fairness' (which I really, really don't want to get into).

Oh, I see.

That is such a hard quote to parse that I am not even sure if I can go about agreeing or disagreeing with it, let alone analyzing its logical consistency.

The quote's just an evocative piece of a larger book-sized argument against trans women. The general argument is that of those TERFs you encountered—trans women transitioning is misogynistic, because transitioning harms cis women. It's a logically consistent argument, just a bigoted and false one.

The long and the short of it is that at some point a fringe group in second wave feminism were so desperate to cling to a binary view of sex, they rejected the idea of gender entirely and created wild conspiracy theories that cis women would somehow be "replaced" by the technologies that had enabled medical transition.

The premise it's remained logically consistent with is "trans women are monsters invented by modern science", and they were able to spend decades doing that openly because people just believed any old thing about trans folk until the 2010's.

I suppose, as cruel as they're being now, it's the last gasp of a movement that's realised it no longer has mainstream support to fall back on.

I think the assessment is mostly right. I'm not sure a desire to cling to binary sex caused them to be gender abolitionists or whatevs, though.

... I'm clearly going to have to educate myself on this erroneous argument (the better to argue against it) because I don't even follow the logic. Maybe it's just because my starting point is "biological sex is itself a spectrum" and I don't know where to even go from the opposite point of view, but I have no idea how they get from there to "gender doesn't exist".

Any tips on where to start reading? Sources that dissect the argument would be even better.

You might also wanna take a look at Histories of the Transgender Child. The history is focused on the stuff before contemporary transphobia, but it outlines the history of sex and gender and how those concepts have transformed throughout recent history. ("Recent" starting about a hundred-plus years ago.)

[Anymage]

I think the assessment is mostly right. I'm not sure a desire to cling to binary sex caused them to be gender abolitionists or whatevs, though.

There are different schools of thought that can lead to the same place, and the issue is complicated by the fact that bigots are quick to reach out for whatever argument happens to be handy because their primary aims like "I want to firmly support ingroup/outgroup roles" and "I like punching down" tend not to gain much support/validation/traction if stated plainly. So you can have one person making a good faith, internally consistent and yet ultimately wrong argument about how gender is arbitrary and artificial and transitioning supports the gender binary. That position doesn't necessarily say anything about another person who rails against "intruders in women's spaces".

[Murk]

The argument that trans women would be misogynistic reminds me a lot of arguments about cultural appropriation.

TERFS see (cis) women as a minority in terms of power, and men as having a power privilege. So to them trans women (at least those that society would accept as men) are people with a power privilege trying to get into a minority's environment.

The premise that trans women would have a power advantage or a privilege over cis women is very wrong.
But I kind of get that from that wrong premise, the idea of a privileged person wanting to live as an underprivileged person would be insulting. It would be like a millionaire coming to live in the slums because they feel more at home with poor people. Or like the cultural appropriation where someone from a majority culture tries to take pieces of a minority culture for themselves.

(I just googled if the term "gender appropriation" exists, and it does, and it's just as stupid as I thought it would be).

Maybe this

"I want to firmly support ingroup/outgroup roles"

Is a more succinct way of saying that, though. They don't want people from the outgroup entering the ingroup, and if people try that is obviously anti-ingroup.

[Lissou]

I'm still struggling with gender fluidity. I don't know quite how to know at a given time what my gender is, expect when something suddenly makes me feel disphoric or euphoric. I'd rather be able to avoid the former and work towards the latter, so them happening somewhat randomly isn't great.

Any genderfluid people here willing to share how they sort it all out? Advice or anecdotes from anyone else would be helpful too, if only so that I don't feel as alone.

I'm working little by little on my presentation, trying to find a more gender neutral "default" that I can adapt depending. It doesn't help that I'm not switching everything at once like an actual switch. The other day I felt like binding and it helped, but I could tell packing wouldn't have and might even have been dysphoric, and the other way around has happened too. Although I very rarely feel like I "need" to pack, and when I do it just makes me feel more "right" but it's not euphoric like some other things.

Anyway I'm rambling but any advice remains welcome and if people want to send PMs or have them open, I would appreciate that too.

[TaiLiu]

There are different schools of thought that can lead to the same place, and the issue is complicated by the fact that bigots are quick to reach out for whatever argument happens to be handy because their primary aims like "I want to firmly support ingroup/outgroup roles" and "I like punching down" tend not to gain much support/validation/traction if stated plainly. So you can have one person making a good faith, internally consistent and yet ultimately wrong argument about how gender is arbitrary and artificial and transitioning supports the gender binary. That position doesn't necessarily say anything about another person who rails against "intruders in women's spaces".

Yes, that's true. Those TERFs probably didn't have consistent beliefs of their own.

I'm still struggling with gender fluidity. I don't know quite how to know at a given time what my gender is, expect when something suddenly makes me feel disphoric or euphoric. I'd rather be able to avoid the former and work towards the latter, so them happening somewhat randomly isn't great.

Any genderfluid people here willing to share how they sort it all out? Advice or anecdotes from anyone else would be helpful too, if only so that I don't feel as alone.

I'm working little by little on my presentation, trying to find a more gender neutral "default" that I can adapt depending. It doesn't help that I'm not switching everything at once like an actual switch. The other day I felt like binding and it helped, but I could tell packing wouldn't have and might even have been dysphoric, and the other way around has happened too. Although I very rarely feel like I "need" to pack, and when I do it just makes me feel more "right" but it's not euphoric like some other things.

Anyway I'm rambling but any advice remains welcome and if people want to send PMs or have them open, I would appreciate that too.

I'm not genderfluid, but I get the feeling of being comfortable with some body parts one day and then being uncomfortable the next. I haven't figured it out, either. Hope you get more euphoric days than dysphoric ones!

[Lissou]

I'm not genderfluid, but I get the feeling of being comfortable with some body parts one day and then being uncomfortable the next. I haven't figured it out, either. Hope you get more euphoric days than dysphoric ones!

Thanks! I've been doing better about focusing on the euphoric part(s) and trying to ignore the dysphoric one(s) when I have both, at any rate, which certainly helps!

Something weird that happened is that I tried one of these face gender swap application to turn my face male as I'm afab and I notices that while I can definitely tell that the changed face is a "man's face", it's actually very difficult to pinpoint the details that changed. So I'm actually thinking that my face is pretty androgynous as it is and I may not "need" temporary T to help me be more neutral. I actually used the filter on my regular face to make it female as well and looking at the three of them felt weird but kind of right, and they're all fairly close to one another.
I'll still discuss things with my GP about maybe seeing an endocrinologist (I'd need to be refered first anyway and the waiting list could be months) and an orthophonist as well to try and do voice work. The later worries me the most, cost wise.

Anyway, I'll continue to keep you informed!

[TaiLiu]

Thanks! I've been doing better about focusing on the euphoric part(s) and trying to ignore the dysphoric one(s) when I have both, at any rate, which certainly helps!

Something weird that happened is that I tried one of these face gender swap application to turn my face male as I'm afab and I notices that while I can definitely tell that the changed face is a "man's face", it's actually very difficult to pinpoint the details that changed. So I'm actually thinking that my face is pretty androgynous as it is and I may not "need" temporary T to help me be more neutral. I actually used the filter on my regular face to make it female as well and looking at the three of them felt weird but kind of right, and they're all fairly close to one another.
I'll still discuss things with my GP about maybe seeing an endocrinologist (I'd need to be refered first anyway and the waiting list could be months) and an orthophonist as well to try and do voice work. The later worries me the most, cost wise.

Anyway, I'll continue to keep you informed!

Neat! Glad to hear about the face stuff.

[Rater202]

So... I recently found out about Aegosexuality.

If I have it right, it's a subcategory of Asexuality where you can be attracted to people, and so on, but you'd really rather think about it than do it?

Do I have that right?

Because that's not exactly my situation(see earlier discussion) but it's closer than any other label I've seen

[Comissar]

So... I recently found out about Aegosexuality.

If I have it right, it's a subcategory of Asexuality where you can be attracted to people, and so on, but you'd really rather think about it than do it?

Do I have that right?

Because that's not exactly my situation(see earlier discussion) but it's closer than any other label I've seen

More or less, yes. From what I understand, Aegosexuals experience a degree of separation with how they experience attraction. Doing a little research, Aegosexuals are typically sex-neutral to sex-negative with regards to taking part.

I find it challenging to talk about sexual/romantic attraction without the use of metaphors as I come at it from the Ace spectrum myself (I'm very much grey-ace, probably Demi), so I tend to relate it to food and desire to eat said food. Where allosexuals see food and become hungry for food, asexuals see food and think 'yup, that's food' and may eat or not eat it on personal preference, my understanding is that an aegosexual would see a meal laid out and think 'wow, that looks like it'd be delicious' but when offered some would continue to 'I'm ok thanks'. (For the purposes of the metaphor, Demi would be the asexual position except when a specific chef makes the meal where it flips to the allo position, but it's gotta be a chef that you're very familiar with).

[Lissou]

I have a date for my reduction this summer! This seems fast, as I didn't expect a date this year, but at the same time my first consultation was in summer 2021 so that's two years, which isn't that fast.
After talking about it I decided to keep my nipples as the surgery wasn't a kind that detaches and reattaches them and I didn't have a strong preference one way or the other. It's also the more conservative approach as I could still decide to have them removed later on if I wanted.

I saw my GP who recommended I first transition socially before going to a vocal coach and see if maybe I feel I don't need one after all. She still gave me a referral but told me since it's very expensive it might be good to try and do without.
I think I'll go to at least one session, talk it through, maybe learn some exercices and try not to have too many sessions. It can be reimbursed for binary trans people but chances are my request would be rejected as I'm non-binary. I might still try asking because what do I have to lose?

So things are moving along nicely, slower than I would want ideally but faster than in the past two decades were, basically, not much happened. I'll continue to keep you updated :)

[TaiLiu]

I have a date for my reduction this summer! This seems fast, as I didn't expect a date this year, but at the same time my first consultation was in summer 2021 so that's two years, which isn't that fast.
After talking about it I decided to keep my nipples as the surgery wasn't a kind that detaches and reattaches them and I didn't have a strong preference one way or the other. It's also the more conservative approach as I could still decide to have them removed later on if I wanted.

I saw my GP who recommended I first transition socially before going to a vocal coach and see if maybe I feel I don't need one after all. She still gave me a referral but told me since it's very expensive it might be good to try and do without.
I think I'll go to at least one session, talk it through, maybe learn some exercices and try not to have too many sessions. It can be reimbursed for binary trans people but chances are my request would be rejected as I'm non-binary. I might still try asking because what do I have to lose?

So things are moving along nicely, slower than I would want ideally but faster than in the past two decades were, basically, not much happened. I'll continue to keep you updated :)

Good luck! This is all very exciting. Sucks that they won't cover your stuff just cuz you're non-binary, though. :/

[ComicSansSeraph]

Anyone in Europe or another first world country interested in a green card marriage to help me out of the UK?

[Lissou]

I've made this with FaceApp and I'm trying to figure out what changes I can make to shift from one to another with makeup, clothes, posture and so on.



I'd prefer more of a spectrum to look at and see which one is me at the time :P But this is helping, I can look at it and see where I recognize myself more at least.

[Caerulea]

I saw my GP who recommended I first transition socially before going to a vocal coach and see if maybe I feel I don't need one after all. She still gave me a referral but told me since it's very expensive it might be good to try and do without.

There's a lot of excellent resources on the interwebs! I can highly recommend this discord server: https://discord.gg/u4uEQpYXnK. I personally haven't taken lessons, but I have sat in on them. There's a couple of coaches who do regular lessons, and weekly lounges with exercises and feedback from the coaches.

In other news: I finally started HRT! Super happy to take this step after so long.