LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

[Liquor Box]

Like, the best female player right now is ranked behind over 100 men.
.....
It becomes a "lesser tournament" if you will.

If none of its players are amongst the best 100 in the world, then I think fair to say it is a lessor tournament. Like a tournament restricted by weight class or age.

It's more likely that those individual countries have antidiscrimination laws that would make the policy unenforceable.

I know for a fact that the English association tweeted that excluding trans women would run afoul of the Equality Act in a few ways. Even aside from direct discrimination against trans folk, it would require the disclosure of personal information to enforce, plus the implication that trans men would only get their titles back if they de-transitioned could easily be seen as any number of violations, especially if bans on conversion therapy go through.

Maybe that is a big part of it. Although I suppose having such laws also reflects the attitude of those Euro/Anglo countries.

This prompted me to look up the Equality Act. Interestingly, it explicitly creates a distinction between the likes of chess and sports with a physical component. Meaning that it allows banning trans persons from women's sports with a physical component, but not a game like chess (which kind of makes sense to me).
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...15/section/195

Incidentally this is why there's practically any gendered sports at all. Thanks for explaining it very well!

It's a bit different in sports where men have an inherent advantage due to being stronger/faster/more stamina.

In chess, it may not be that men have any inherent advantage, and women's leagues may just exist to encourage women into the game. In physical sports, women's sports exist because women aren't as well equipped as men to play, and the separate leagues are needed so that women have the chance to be competitive. For example, Netball is a game which is dominated by women in terms of participation, funding and promotion, but boys teams still beat the girls.

[BisectedBrioche]

Maybe that is a big part of it. Although I suppose having such laws also reflects the attitude of those Euro/Anglo countries.

This prompted me to look up the Equality Act. Interestingly, it explicitly creates a distinction between the likes of chess and sports with a physical component. Meaning that it allows banning trans persons from women's sports with a physical component, but not a game like chess (which kind of makes sense to me).
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...15/section/195

That's not correct. It's an interpretation you could come to if you aren't familiar with legalise (or so lawyers tell me; that kind of language makes me feel like I'm about to be abducted through a fairy circle) and which...certain groups (and we'll leave it at that) are desperate to believe, but when they took it to court, judges shot them down.

Ultimately the EA2010 was written with the intention of protecting trans folks along with everyone else, and while precedent was needed (specifically to confirm the wording applied to all trans people, rather than an archaic medicalised definition), it takes truly exceptional circumstances. This means any attempt to ban trans people from any sport in the UK would meet major legal challenges.

[Liquor Box]

That's not correct. It's an interpretation you could come to if you aren't familiar with legalise (or so lawyers tell me; that kind of language makes me feel like I'm about to be abducted through a fairy circle) and which...certain groups (and we'll leave it at that) are desperate to believe, but when they took it to court, judges shot them down.

Ultimately the EA2010 was written with the intention of protecting trans folks along with everyone else, and while precedent was needed (specifically to confirm the wording applied to all trans people, rather than an archaic medicalised definition), it takes truly exceptional circumstances. This means any attempt to ban trans people from any sport in the UK would meet major legal challenges.

What is not correct? That there is an exception for sports? I don't think it's at all interpretation whether the exception exists, it clearly does. It's the same section that provides an exception for discriminating for sex and age (women only, and age grade sports). It says this:

(2)A person does not contravene section 29, 33, 34 or 35, so far as relating to gender reassignment, only by doing anything in relation to the participation of a transsexual person as a competitor in a gender-affected activity if it is necessary to do so to secure in relation to the activity—
(a)fair competition, or
(b)the safety of competitors.
(3)A gender-affected activity is a sport, game or other activity of a competitive nature in circumstances in which the physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of one sex would put them at a disadvantage compared to average persons of the other sex as competitors in events involving the activity.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...15/section/195

It may be that what the lawyer was referring to is whether prohibiting trans women participating in women's sports is necessary for "fair competition". Which is a question that would depend on the particulars of the sport and the individuals seeking inclusion (to what extent their physiology resembles women's). The challenge for sports is wherever they draw the line, they are liable to be challenged legally by one 'side' or the other - perhaps by both.

But, while there might be room for argument as to what is necessary for fair competition, I don't think you are right that UK could never restrict trans woman participation without it being struck down by the court. Indeed, it has happened:

The governing body - which contributed to the formation of World Athletics' policy - said it had received the "required assurances" that the sporting exemption in the Equality Act 2010 applies to the Gender Recognition Act 2004, after previous concerns.

That exemption states sporting organisations can discriminate on grounds of sex in a "gender-affected activity" and discriminate on grounds of gender reassignment where necessary to secure "fair competition" or "the safety of competitors".

UKA said its position is that athletics should "remain an inclusive sport" but it is "fair" that athletes who have gone through male puberty should be excluded from the female category.

In developing its transgender eligibility policy, "consideration will be given" to changing the current male category to an open category.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/65140092

[Delicious Taffy]

Veering away from whatever's going on with the competition tangent, I feel like any time I try to look into a Certified Queer Topic™ I'm unfamiliar with, it's always written in a clinical, almost passive aggressive way. Like a wiki page that's annoyed it even exists, if that makes sense? I have trouble finding resources that talk how real people talk, basically, and it makes it hard to learn. Has anyone got that issue, or maybe a good resource that doesn't feel like an annoyed ER attendant wrote it?

[TaiLiu]

Veering away from whatever's going on with the competition tangent, I feel like any time I try to look into a Certified Queer Topic™ I'm unfamiliar with, it's always written in a clinical, almost passive aggressive way. Like a wiki page that's annoyed it even exists, if that makes sense? I have trouble finding resources that talk how real people talk, basically, and it makes it hard to learn. Has anyone got that issue, or maybe a good resource that doesn't feel like an annoyed ER attendant wrote it?

I'm not sure what you mean. What's a certified queer topic?

[Delicious Taffy]

I'm not sure what you mean. What's a certified queer topic?

Something like "What's a 'libragender'", "How do I properly use fae/faer pronouns in a sentence", "Is it bad etiquette to assume a fictional character is queer because they're a little bit of an outcast in general", "If a person uses multiple sets of pronouns, like he/they, is it impolite to only use one of them", that sorta thing.

Trying to walk a fine line here, because in the past when I've put these questions into words, I've basically been met with "Well, why should anything be any different just because somebody's queer, also here's all these missteps you made that wouldn't have applied if the person wasn't queer".

[TaiLiu]

Something like "What's a 'libragender'", "How do I properly use fae/faer pronouns in a sentence", "Is it bad etiquette to assume a fictional character is queer because they're a little bit of an outcast in general", "If a person uses multiple sets of pronouns, like he/they, is it impolite to only use one of them", that sorta thing.

Trying to walk a fine line here, because in the past when I've put these questions into words, I've basically been met with "Well, why should anything be any different just because somebody's queer, also here's all these missteps you made that wouldn't have applied if the person wasn't queer".

Oh, I see. That's a pretty broad range of topics, so I'm not sure there's a website that covers all that.

Pronouns dot page might cover some of the pronoun stuff. Otherwise, I guess you'd need to ask people and rely on tacit knowledge.

For the specific questions: I don't know, here's a page on using fae/faer, I don't know, and generally no.

[LaZodiac]

Something like "What's a 'libragender'", "How do I properly use fae/faer pronouns in a sentence", "Is it bad etiquette to assume a fictional character is queer because they're a little bit of an outcast in general", "If a person uses multiple sets of pronouns, like he/they, is it impolite to only use one of them", that sorta thing.

Trying to walk a fine line here, because in the past when I've put these questions into words, I've basically been met with "Well, why should anything be any different just because somebody's queer, also here's all these missteps you made that wouldn't have applied if the person wasn't queer".

Libragender is in the nonbinary umbrella, regarding those who don't feel they have a gender specifically but like the vibes of one.

Fae/faer would be... honestly rather simple to use in a sentence? I'm' not sure what the issue is there.

Are you queer? Then it's probably fine to do so. If not... I mean, it's still probably fine.

Not really impolite but they'll notice if you don't use one over the other.

[BisectedBrioche]

I think their point was that those are examples of such topics, not that those are questions they need answering. It feels pretty broad. Maybe topics that someone not already aware of queer topics or discourse would be in a position to ask, but otherwise pretty simple questions.

That said, you know I love a good grammar explanation:

• Pronouns as they're given usually follow the pattern; subject/object/possessive.
• The subject is the actor in the sentence, while the object is what has something done to them. For example, "She passed it to her"; she is the subject form, her is the object form. Thus she/her. Fae/faer fits into a sentence similarly; "Fae passed it to faer".
• With most pronouns just give the subject and object (she/her, he/him), some will offer a possessive (she/her/hers, they/them/theirs).
• Sometimes people with multiple sets of common pronouns will contract them (e.g. instead of she/her and they/them one might give them as she/they).
• This is not typically done if one set of pronouns is less common (e.g. I use she/her and fae/faer, and usually give them that way, as fae isn't as well known).

[theangelJean]

Veering away from whatever's going on with the competition tangent, I feel like any time I try to look into a Certified Queer Topic™ I'm unfamiliar with, it's always written in a clinical, almost passive aggressive way. Like a wiki page that's annoyed it even exists, if that makes sense? I have trouble finding resources that talk how real people talk, basically, and it makes it hard to learn. Has anyone got that issue, or maybe a good resource that doesn't feel like an annoyed ER attendant wrote it?

I noticed the same thing when I started reading on Polyamory, but my resource might not work for you. When I googled polyamory I got a bunch of clinical psychology articles (my search history probably has something to do with this, I tend to look up medical information from the clinical rather than public side). I ended up finding much more useful information from Reddit. Specifically, by going to the r/polyamory FAQ and following links from there. That got me websites written by people with lived experience who knew what they were talking about. Explanations of common terms, important concepts and their real-life implications with examples. Then again, polyamory actually has an active community on Reddit (which apparently goes back many, many years to the time of newsgroups and MySpace). You might not have the same luck with other topics.

Edited to add: which makes me wonder if information on "newer" topics will be found where the young people are. I'm not on TikTok but I've been linked a lot of good videos from there on a variety of topics, especially on inclusion and discrimination. I would have no idea how you would search there, though. Maybe you post a question in comments to someone who's making content in that general area?

[Lissou]

I have some great news! So a few months ago I explained I couldn't get health coverage because I'm non-binary and not binary-trans. Well a trans rights association has been helping me out with it. Basically there is a bureacracy technicality where I fill it out like I'm binary (so in my case as though I were a trans man) but on the form where you write which treatment(s) you need coverage for you add anything you might want/need from both the masculinizing and feminizing list (so for instance someone could write they want masculinizing HRT but also laser because a beard would also be disphoric).
It's more complicated because there aren't as many "templates" and it might not be approved if the person verifying it doesn't get why you want stuff from boths lists. But it's possible. So three weeks ago with the full support of my GP who has no training but is super supportive so she basically followed my "instructions" I filed my request.
Now, I've filed such a request before for my diabetes and it took 2 days to get the approval, so I was getting really scared... But yesterday I got approved!
What that means is that I can go through the public system and get most things for free (notably potential surgeries) but have to wait in line as there is more demand than offer (the delay for the first appointment for top surgery is currently 2+ years), or if I can afford it and can't wait, go through a private clinic, which is allowed to charge more than what the government covers, pay a few thousand euros and only have to wait something like six months.
Right now I'm looking at private options but got my name onto the waiting list so that if that's what I end up going with I won't have to start waiting when I make that decision.
Voice training is one of the things that is covered so I'm looking for an orthophonist with experience in voice androgynization or masculinization. The base coverage isn't huge but they don't seem to charge as much as surgeons, even when considering that it will probably take years of regular training, so I should be able to cover the difference if I don't find a free one.

Also looking into local HRT, which isn't covered (only injections of testosterone are but that's not something I'm interested in at this point) but it only costs about 25 € a month and I'm probably going to do 6 months max. We'll see if that changes.
Anyway, lots of great news, I'm very happy and relieved.

[BisectedBrioche]

I have some great news! So a few months ago I explained I couldn't get health coverage because I'm non-binary and not binary-trans. Well a trans rights association has been helping me out with it. Basically there is a bureacracy technicality where I fill it out like I'm binary (so in my case as though I were a trans man) but on the form where you write which treatment(s) you need coverage for you add anything you might want/need from both the masculinizing and feminizing list (so for instance someone could write they want masculinizing HRT but also laser because a beard would also be disphoric).
It's more complicated because there aren't as many "templates" and it might not be approved if the person verifying it doesn't get why you want stuff from boths lists. But it's possible. So three weeks ago with the full support of my GP who has no training but is super supportive so she basically followed my "instructions" I filed my request.
Now, I've filed such a request before for my diabetes and it took 2 days to get the approval, so I was getting really scared... But yesterday I got approved!
What that means is that I can go through the public system and get most things for free (notably potential surgeries) but have to wait in line as there is more demand than offer (the delay for the first appointment for top surgery is currently 2+ years), or if I can afford it and can't wait, go through a private clinic, which is allowed to charge more than what the government covers, pay a few thousand euros and only have to wait something like six months.
Right now I'm looking at private options but got my name onto the waiting list so that if that's what I end up going with I won't have to start waiting when I make that decision.
Voice training is one of the things that is covered so I'm looking for an orthophonist with experience in voice androgynization or masculinization. The base coverage isn't huge but they don't seem to charge as much as surgeons, even when considering that it will probably take years of regular training, so I should be able to cover the difference if I don't find a free one.

Also looking into local HRT, which isn't covered (only injections of testosterone are but that's not something I'm interested in at this point) but it only costs about 25 € a month and I'm probably going to do 6 months max. We'll see if that changes.
Anyway, lots of great news, I'm very happy and relieved.

I know enbies can really get screwed over when it comes to medical assistance, so that's fantastic! I hope it all goes your way from here.

[TaiLiu]

I have some great news! So a few months ago I explained I couldn't get health coverage because I'm non-binary and not binary-trans. Well a trans rights association has been helping me out with it. Basically there is a bureacracy technicality where I fill it out like I'm binary (so in my case as though I were a trans man) but on the form where you write which treatment(s) you need coverage for you add anything you might want/need from both the masculinizing and feminizing list (so for instance someone could write they want masculinizing HRT but also laser because a beard would also be disphoric).
It's more complicated because there aren't as many "templates" and it might not be approved if the person verifying it doesn't get why you want stuff from boths lists. But it's possible. So three weeks ago with the full support of my GP who has no training but is super supportive so she basically followed my "instructions" I filed my request.
Now, I've filed such a request before for my diabetes and it took 2 days to get the approval, so I was getting really scared... But yesterday I got approved!
What that means is that I can go through the public system and get most things for free (notably potential surgeries) but have to wait in line as there is more demand than offer (the delay for the first appointment for top surgery is currently 2+ years), or if I can afford it and can't wait, go through a private clinic, which is allowed to charge more than what the government covers, pay a few thousand euros and only have to wait something like six months.
Right now I'm looking at private options but got my name onto the waiting list so that if that's what I end up going with I won't have to start waiting when I make that decision.
Voice training is one of the things that is covered so I'm looking for an orthophonist with experience in voice androgynization or masculinization. The base coverage isn't huge but they don't seem to charge as much as surgeons, even when considering that it will probably take years of regular training, so I should be able to cover the difference if I don't find a free one.

Also looking into local HRT, which isn't covered (only injections of testosterone are but that's not something I'm interested in at this point) but it only costs about 25 € a month and I'm probably going to do 6 months max. We'll see if that changes.
Anyway, lots of great news, I'm very happy and relieved.

Yay! Happy to hear that you've finally on the list.

[enderlord99]

I'm still confused as to whether "singing along to Green Day" would make me a bad ally and person, or if it's "not singing along to Green Day" that makes me a bad ally and person.

[BisectedBrioche]

I'm still confused as to whether "singing along to Green Day" would make me a bad ally and person, or if it's "not singing along to Green Day" that makes me a bad ally and person.

I feel like I'm missing some context?

[Batcathat]

I feel like I'm missing some context?

Yeah, I wondered the same thing. I thought singing along with Green Day usually just meant "was probably young in the late 90s/early 00s".

[enderlord99]

I feel like I'm missing some context?

Yeah, I wondered the same thing. I thought singing along with Green Day usually just meant "was probably young in the late 90s/early 00s".

Apparently "not singing along in the first place" like me, as opposed to either "singing it censored" or "singing it uncensored" is acceptable, but barely so.

[theangelJean]

Apparently "not singing along in the first place" like me, as opposed to either "singing it censored" or "singing it uncensored" is acceptable, but barely so.

Ahh, so a sweeping generalisation based on a specific issue with multiple aspects. Got it.

I mean, I get the actual issue, which is the conflict between censorship and emulation. Media is made to speak to people, but it will speak to some people more than others. A queer person sings a song declaring their identity as [homophobic slur], while highlighting societal bigotry in general - great, that's art. (ETA: "American Idiot" by Green Day, to be specific.) The specific objection was to other artists recording, selling and broadcasting a cover version of the song without using the offending word. Could be censorship, could be simple appropriation, could be an artist wanting to highlight continuing bigotry while identifying with a different marginalised group - or a combination of the above. How it's done and maybe even when it was done would make a difference - if it was recorded close to the original and broadcast in the same period, or broadcast on channels promoting in-group/out-group mentality, it's not a great look.

If you sang along with the original when it came out, on the other hand, or with a cover version that omitted the offending lyric, that in itself doesn't say anything whatsoever. If you chose not to sing along back then, that's a choice someone might have made, that in itself doesn't say anything about allyship or otherwise, and it certainly doesn't say anything about you now. And 20 years later, anyone judging you as an ally based on the way you do, or don't sing along to a song, is using the wrong criteria.
[/rant]

[LaZodiac]

As those of you who do follow the RB thread probably know, I got my grs bottom surgery *toots a tiny horn*

[TaiLiu]

I'm still confused as to whether "singing along to Green Day" would make me a bad ally and person, or if it's "not singing along to Green Day" that makes me a bad ally and person.

I don't think it really matters.

As those of you who do follow the RB thread probably know, I got my grs bottom surgery *toots a tiny horn*

Congrats again!

[theangelJean]

As those of you who do follow the RB thread probably know, I got my grs bottom surgery *toots a tiny horn*

Yay! Congrats!

[BisectedBrioche]

As those of you who do follow the RB thread probably know, I got my grs bottom surgery *toots a tiny horn*

I hope your recovery's going well (my first few weeks were rough). <3

[LaZodiac]

I hope your recovery's going well (my first few weeks were rough). <3

My first week was the most physical pain I've ever been in in my life, and I've actually almost died from diabetic keta acetosis before.

I'm still pretty bad, and swapped in mental pain (the first tine actually seeing if was... rough. The swelling i expected, the scabs that'll be scars one day I expected, but no one and nothing prepped me for how bad it'd look.)

[TaiLiu]

My first week was the most physical pain I've ever been in in my life, and I've actually almost died from diabetic keta acetosis before.

I'm still pretty bad, and swapped in mental pain (the first tine actually seeing if was... rough. The swelling i expected, the scabs that'll be scars one day I expected, but no one and nothing prepped me for how bad it'd look.)

Yeah, a lot of the stories I've heard of confirmation surgery are often immediately positive. A stereotypical story is someone who wakes up after top surgery and is immediately relieved they don't have boobs anymore.

Not sure why. Maybe people are worried their experiences will be used to benefit transphobia.

Hope it's looking a little better now.

[LaZodiac]

Yeah, a lot of the stories I've heard of confirmation surgery are often immediately positive. A stereotypical story is someone who wakes up after top surgery and is immediately relieved they don't have boobs anymore.

Not sure why. Maybe people are worried their experiences will be used to benefit transphobia.

Hope it's looking a little better now.

It'll be rough to look at for six months to a year, so... still bad.

Today was a brutal mental health day, would appreciate some well wishes.

[TaiLiu]

It'll be rough to look at for six months to a year, so... still bad.

Today was a brutal mental health day, would appreciate some well wishes.

That sucks. Hope it's a start to a happy life with a vulva. I wish you super well and that you have a better mental health day tomorrow.

[BisectedBrioche]

It'll be rough to look at for six months to a year, so... still bad.

Today was a brutal mental health day, would appreciate some well wishes.

As someone who's recovered from such surgery; you've done the hard part, and you can be proud of it. Hang in there. <3

[LaZodiac]

That sucks. Hope it's a start to a happy life with a vulva. I wish you super well and that you have a better mental health day tomorrow.

Thank you! I'm doing a lot better mentally today.

As someone who's recovered from such surgery; you've done the hard part, and you can be proud of it. Hang in there. <3

Thanks! It is tricky at times to be proud of it, because while it was severely mentally taxing getting my surgery OK'd and stuff, that was mostly because "everyone involved but me is incompetent". The actual work I had to do was easy, it was relying on others that made it stressful. The recovery is all physical on my part by contrast, and while I can do it, it's... a lot of wear on my body and mind.

But, I'll hang in there!!!

[Anonymouswizard]

While I can't personally empathise with the pain hang in there Zodi! It might be ugly and horrifically painful now, but I'm sure it'll be amazing and beautiful when all is said and done.


Something I'm struggling with at times is the feeling of being a 'fake trans'. I'm fluidflex, so my gender identity can be all over the place, and I'm not currently on hormones (considering them, but I want to loose some weight first) or seeking to get surgery. And sometimes I feel too male to count, or realise that a lot of society doesn't want to deal with the complexities of nonbinary people, or has this view that you're only trans if you're seeking to permanently transition.

Note that none of my friends have been like this, especially my trans friends, but I that doesn't extended to my entire social circle. It also doesn't help that trans healthcare on this rock isn't great, from some of the stories I've heard getting NB HRT might be a herculean task.

Sorry if that doesn't make too much sense, just needed to rant.

[TaiLiu]

Thank you! I'm doing a lot better mentally today.

Glad to know. Hope it keeps up.

Something I'm struggling with at times is the feeling of being a 'fake trans'. I'm fluidflex, so my gender identity can be all over the place, and I'm not currently on hormones (considering them, but I want to loose some weight first) or seeking to get surgery. And sometimes I feel too male to count, or realise that a lot of society doesn't want to deal with the complexities of nonbinary people, or has this view that you're only trans if you're seeking to permanently transition.

Note that none of my friends have been like this, especially my trans friends, but I that doesn't extended to my entire social circle. It also doesn't help that trans healthcare on this rock isn't great, from some of the stories I've heard getting NB HRT might be a herculean task.

Sorry if that doesn't make too much sense, just needed to rant.

Sorry. That sounds difficult to deal with.

I think of being trans as a choice about how I wanna live my life, not as some fact about me that I can fake or be mistaken about. This doesn't help with other people, but it has helped me.