LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

[Lord Raziere]

Finally admitted I'm transgender to my mother. Sigh...as I expected she just expressed doubt rather than supportiveness, just like my brother did because I've never "done anything girly". I'm so introverted and unwilling to try anything new and hide so much of what I'm interested in, people in my family apparently think I'm this statue who has no interests outside of what they've seen. she said that I'll probably go see someone to sort all this out though, so she isn't against the idea but clearly knows nothing about this issue.

[DarthArminius]

I really want a boyfriend. Being in the closet sucks, but I'm planning to get my life together. I need to do that before I get involved with anyone.
Uh, it sucks being so impatient by nature and having to deal with this.

[BladeofObliviom]

Finally admitted I'm transgender to my mother. Sigh...as I expected she just expressed doubt rather than supportiveness, just like my brother did because I've never "done anything girly". I'm so introverted and unwilling to try anything new and hide so much of what I'm interested in, people in my family apparently think I'm this statue who has no interests outside of what they've seen. she said that I'll probably go see someone to sort all this out though, so she isn't against the idea but clearly knows nothing about this issue.

I'm sorry, that's relatable and sucks. My mom's initial reaction was pretty much "mmmmmsoundsfake". She did eventually kind of come around though still never gets the pronouns right. Ugh.

[Anonymouswizard]

Finally admitted I'm transgender to my mother. Sigh...as I expected she just expressed doubt rather than supportiveness, just like my brother did because I've never "done anything girly". I'm so introverted and unwilling to try anything new and hide so much of what I'm interested in, people in my family apparently think I'm this statue who has no interests outside of what they've seen. she said that I'll probably go see someone to sort all this out though, so she isn't against the idea but clearly knows nothing about this issue.

That's ****. Especially because there are plenty of cis women who have 'never done anything girly'. I hope she manages to understand that you know your odentity better than she does.

Spoiler: Barely related waffle about myself

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I sometimes forget that I'm lucky that most of my family's reactions to me coming out as NB were 'makes sense', in fact my older sister pretty much immediately went 'called it'. The only one who expressed doubt is my stepmum, who didn't know me when I was young and actually expressing this stuff, and I just can't be bothered to continue correcting her.

[DarthArminius]

Finally admitted I'm transgender to my mother. Sigh...as I expected she just expressed doubt rather than supportiveness, just like my brother did because I've never "done anything girly". I'm so introverted and unwilling to try anything new and hide so much of what I'm interested in, people in my family apparently think I'm this statue who has no interests outside of what they've seen. she said that I'll probably go see someone to sort all this out though, so she isn't against the idea but clearly knows nothing about this issue.

Sorry I didn't see this. I haven't been following a lot in this thread because it seems to be moving a little slower than it has in the past. At least she seems to be ignorant and not willfilly ignorant, which isn't as bad.

[Lord Raziere]

Thanks, its reassuring at least to know that its not an abnormal reaction I guess.

[DarthArminius]

Thanks, its reassuring at least to know that its not an abnormal reaction I guess.

Be cautious but don't freak out. Sometimes ignorance is not maliciousness. It's just, you know, life.
Before we learned Math, we didn't know the square root of anything. It didn't mean we were bad people.

[LaZodiac]

Finally admitted I'm transgender to my mother. Sigh...as I expected she just expressed doubt rather than supportiveness, just like my brother did because I've never "done anything girly". I'm so introverted and unwilling to try anything new and hide so much of what I'm interested in, people in my family apparently think I'm this statue who has no interests outside of what they've seen. she said that I'll probably go see someone to sort all this out though, so she isn't against the idea but clearly knows nothing about this issue.

I'm sorry you've had to deal with this ****, and I hope things improve sooner rather than later.

[DarthArminius]

I'll be honest, When i was four and five, I wanted to be a girl. Feels real weird to remember thinking about those days.

I realize it's because I already had affection for guys. Does that make any sense or do you guys think it's impossible for someone that young?

[137beth]

I'll be honest, When i was four and five, I wanted to be a girl. Feels real weird to remember thinking about those days.

I realize it's because I already had affection for guys. Does that make any sense or do you guys think it's impossible for someone that young?

Would it be impossible for someone who was four or five to be straight? If not, then it isn't too young to know you're gay.

[Anonymouswizard]

I'll be honest, When i was four and five, I wanted to be a girl. Feels real weird to remember thinking about those days.

I realize it's because I already had affection for guys. Does that make any sense or do you guys think it's impossible for someone that young?

I mean gender play is just kind of normal at those ages? But yeah, at 4/5 I wanted to be a girl, and then in my 20s I realised I wasn't cis. I'd definitely say it's possible to solidly be non cis-het at that age, but I wouldn't say it's the only possible reason for such desires.

Lots of kids don't know their identity, some do. We should be accepting of those kids who do, even if they interpret it weirdly.

[DarthArminius]

Could I please ask for some DM regarding something of a trans issue?

[Rydiro]

I mean gender play is just kind of normal at those ages? But yeah, at 4/5 I wanted to be a girl, and then in my 20s I realised I wasn't cis. I'd definitely say it's possible to solidly be non cis-het at that age, but I wouldn't say it's the only possible reason for such desires.

Lots of kids don't know their identity, some do. We should be accepting of those kids who do, even if they interpret it weirdly.

How would you discern between kids who know and those who 'only think' they know?

[enderlord99]

How would you discern between kids who know and those who 'only think' they know?

In hindsight

[Anonymouswizard]

How would you discern between kids who know and those who 'only think' they know?

You don't. You let's kids express how they want and be who they want, even if they change their mind later. Trust that the child knows better than you do. Assume knowledge rather than ignorance.

ETA: yeah, also in hindsight. This applies as much to apparently cis kids as apparently trans kids.

[BisectedBrioche]

Yep, ultimately it's just a matter of giving them room to grow.

[Lentrax]

Popping in here again to ask MM to add I Want to Be a Cute Anime Girl to the list of webcomics.

A lovely story of a MtF who has her egg cracked after her sister gives her a 'makeover.'

Lovely work, and the artist Azul Crescent seems just lovely.

Go give it some love!

Love you all!

[LaZodiac]

Popping in here again to ask MM to add I Want to Be a Cute Anime Girl to the list of webcomics.

A lovely story of a MtF who has her egg cracked after her sister gives her a 'makeover.'

Lovely work, and the artist Azul Crescent seems just lovely.

Go give it some love!

Love you all!

It's pretty great! A little rough in places (emotionally, which is good- and mechanically, which is a little less good (it reads better in a binge basically)) but really enjoyable and cute!

[Mystic Muse]

Popping in here again to ask MM to add I Want to Be a Cute Anime Girl to the list of webcomics.

A lovely story of a MtF who has her egg cracked after her sister gives her a 'makeover.'

Lovely work, and the artist Azul Crescent seems just lovely.

Go give it some love!

Love you all!

I have set an alarm to remind me to do this tonight.

[TaiLiu]

Finally admitted I'm transgender to my mother. Sigh...as I expected she just expressed doubt rather than supportiveness, just like my brother did because I've never "done anything girly". I'm so introverted and unwilling to try anything new and hide so much of what I'm interested in, people in my family apparently think I'm this statue who has no interests outside of what they've seen. she said that I'll probably go see someone to sort all this out though, so she isn't against the idea but clearly knows nothing about this issue.

Sorry, Raziere. That's not fair.

I really want a boyfriend. Being in the closet sucks, but I'm planning to get my life together. I need to do that before I get involved with anyone.
Uh, it sucks being so impatient by nature and having to deal with this.

That sucks, DarthArminius. Hope things get better soon.

[Kesnit]

This is going to sound really weird, but I don't know how (or if) to approach this...

Someone I know shared a Facebook memory from last year. It was a Father's Day wish to her husband, son, and sons-in-law. All 4 men are fathers, so the Happy Father's Day wish is very nice. However....

You know how you can put a background image on FB posts? Yeah... The background image is the trans pride flag. None of the men identified are transmen.

I don't know if I should tell her. (To be clear, the woman who did this is supportive of queer rights. I went to school with 2 of her daughters. She was also my high school advanced math teacher.)

[enderlord99]

This is going to sound really weird, but I don't know how (or if) to approach this...

Someone I know shared a Facebook memory from last year. It was a Father's Day wish to her husband, son, and sons-in-law. All 4 men are fathers, so the Happy Father's Day wish is very nice. However....

You know how you can put a background image on FB posts? Yeah... The background image is the trans pride flag. None of the men identified are transmen.

I don't know if I should tell her. (To be clear, the woman who did this is supportive of queer rights. I went to school with 2 of her daughters. She was also my high school advanced math teacher.)

"The background image for that post has a meaning that, while positive, also doesn't fit with the image. You should probably remove said background."

[Sigako]

Oh, hey, it's Pride month. Just noticed.
Strange, but I don't feel particularly festive about it. Though we don't celebrate it here either.

Update: oops, just realized that this came out wrong. It wasn't a sarcasm, my time attention is really that low, I often miss several weeks at once before being surprised by yells about a deadline.

[Talakeal]

Its once again time for me to ask, can anyone explain the modern concept of gender to me or point me to a website that actually explains things?

I just had another nasty exchange on twitter where I got simultaneously accused of not really being trans and of being transphobic because I referred to people as being one gender and then transitioning to the other; which is apparently a form of misgendering now?

I was also told that I can't even be a trans-ally until I accept that people are born with a gender identity, which really doesn't make sense to me.

Its a psychological fact that all human behavior is a combination of genetics, experiences, and conscious choices. Why is gender identity any different? What is this immutable gender identity that people are born with? Are they adopting mystical dogma and claiming that people have gendered souls or essences? Are they biological essentialists claiming all trans people are really intersex? Are they engaging in magical thinking and pretending like trans people were always their preferred sex? I just don't get it.

And every time I look for answers, I either get a lecture about how its only important to respect and not to understand (which just isn't how my brain works) or a circular argument that boils down to:
"I identify as X gender"
"Well what is X gender?"
"Its the thing that I identify as."

And, like, I want to understand, but it really hurts me when people make objective statements about gender identity that don't apply to me, as does when I am that I need to ascribe to a belief system without logic or evidence or else I am a hateful bigot. And I really don't feel transphobic, I fully believe that everyone should be able to express their gender and modify their body in any they like with full access to human rights and legal protections, but I can at least understand bigoted arguments even if I don't agree with their conclusions.

Really looking forward to guidance, but thanks for listening to me vent either way.


Edit: Oh, and for extra fun, I tried calling up my parents and talking to them about it, but I am not out to them yet and so couldn't explain why it hurt me so much, and was told that they "Don't like talking to me when I am in a whiny mood" and hung up on. Just to give me a small taste of what being disowned feels like on the day I actually come out to them.

[TaiLiu]

Its once again time for me to ask, can anyone explain the modern concept of gender to me or point me to a website that actually explains things?

Once upon a time, I remember reading a really cute gender identity 101 website. Unfortunately, I can't find it anymore. So you get me.

I just had another nasty exchange on twitter where I got simultaneously accused of not really being trans and of being transphobic because I referred to people as being one gender and then transitioning to the other; which is apparently a form of misgendering now?

Can't comment on the accusation, although I've found Twitter kinda nasty in general. I guess maybe the post format contributes. I try to stay away.

Some people, possibly including you, like terms like MtF or FtM or XtY. Others, including me, don't. I think most of it is a language difference. Some trans people feel like they used to be, e.g., a man and now they're a woman. Other people don't feel like that's an accurate way of talking about their experiences.

It's possible to rub people the wrong way when you use terms they dislike to refer to them. I'm very comfortable with other people using XtY to refer to themselves. Or others who are comfy with that language. But I wouldn't like it if someone used that terminology for me. I think it's a factually incorrect assertion about me.

I was also told that I can't even be a trans-ally until I accept that people are born with a gender identity, which really doesn't make sense to me.

Its a psychological fact that all human behavior is a combination of genetics, experiences, and conscious choices. Why is gender identity any different? What is this immutable gender identity that people are born with? Are they adopting mystical dogma and claiming that people have gendered souls or essences? Are they biological essentialists claiming all trans people are really intersex? Are they engaging in magical thinking and pretending like trans people were always their preferred sex? I just don't get it.

There's a lot going on here. I'm not sure what your ontological beliefs about gender are. (And I cannot speculate on what these strangers' beliefs are.) Do you mind clarifying your beliefs?

"Gender identity" is a troubled construct. It falls apart upon close examination. But so does "sex." I wonder if you're privileging one problematic construct over another.

And every time I look for answers, I either get a lecture about how its only important to respect and not to understand (which just isn't how my brain works) or a circular argument that boils down to:
"I identify as X gender"
"Well what is X gender?"
"Its the thing that I identify as."

I think that's kinda the nature of language, ha ha. "What does this word mean?" "It means these other words, which means the aforementioned word."

But I can relate to being presented with a weak argument and being dissatisfied with the response. Presumably there would be some response that you would accept. What would be a satisfactory response for you?

And, like, I want to understand, but it really hurts me when people make objective statements about gender identity that don't apply to me, as does when I am that I need to ascribe to a belief system without logic or evidence or else I am a hateful bigot. And I really don't feel transphobic, I fully believe that everyone should be able to express their gender and modify their body in any they like with full access to human rights and legal protections, but I can at least understand bigoted arguments even if I don't agree with their conclusions.

Different trans people have different opinions about the nature of transness and gender and all that. I don't think you'll find a consensus opinion anytime soon.

Which arguments don't you understand? Which (bigoted) arguments do you understand? Can you lay out their premises and conclusions?

Edit: Oh, and for extra fun, I tried calling up my parents and talking to them about it, but I am not out to them yet and so couldn't explain why it hurt me so much, and was told that they "Don't like talking to me when I am in a whiny mood" and hung up on. Just to give me a small taste of what being disowned feels like on the day I actually come out to them.

Sorry to hear that. Being trans with a transphobic family is quite painful. I wish it weren't this way.

[BisectedBrioche]

And every time I look for answers, I either get a lecture about how its only important to respect and not to understand (which just isn't how my brain works) or a circular argument that boils down to:
"I identify as X gender"
"Well what is X gender?"
"Its the thing that I identify as."

I think the simple answer here would be that a concise summary of what gender is, and what might define specific genders is an entire degree's worth of information, and very hard to get across in a simple conversation. Let alone a tweet or forum post.

While this is true of any gender (including one which someone was assigned at birth, and remains happy with), naturally someone who's expressed their gender differently to society's norms might find themselves questioned on it frequently. This leaves them with two options: give an imperfect, but short, answer, or do an entire degree's worth of study and bring it up potentially multiple times a day.

I can understand that's frustrating if you're looking for more information. I'd recommend "Whipping Girl" by Julia Serano for a bit of further reading (it's mostly about trans women, and how we're subject to the same social forces as cis women, but it does a good job of summarising exactly what gender is in that context in doing so, which might give you the explanation you're after).

Other than that, I can't really add much more than what TaiLiu's already said. I'm sorry you experienced rudeness on twitter (I'd talk about my own experiences, but I wouldn't want to import any drama), the limited characters really do bring about a death of nuance. I'm also very sorry about your family (I'm extremely lucky to have an accepting family, myself); I hope when you are able to come out, they come around.

[Purple Eagle]

Spoiler

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Its once again time for me to ask, can anyone explain the modern concept of gender to me or point me to a website that actually explains things?

I just had another nasty exchange on twitter where I got simultaneously accused of not really being trans and of being transphobic because I referred to people as being one gender and then transitioning to the other; which is apparently a form of misgendering now?

I was also told that I can't even be a trans-ally until I accept that people are born with a gender identity, which really doesn't make sense to me.

Its a psychological fact that all human behavior is a combination of genetics, experiences, and conscious choices. Why is gender identity any different? What is this immutable gender identity that people are born with? Are they adopting mystical dogma and claiming that people have gendered souls or essences? Are they biological essentialists claiming all trans people are really intersex? Are they engaging in magical thinking and pretending like trans people were always their preferred sex? I just don't get it.

And every time I look for answers, I either get a lecture about how its only important to respect and not to understand (which just isn't how my brain works) or a circular argument that boils down to:
"I identify as X gender"
"Well what is X gender?"
"Its the thing that I identify as."

And, like, I want to understand, but it really hurts me when people make objective statements about gender identity that don't apply to me, as does when I am that I need to ascribe to a belief system without logic or evidence or else I am a hateful bigot. And I really don't feel transphobic, I fully believe that everyone should be able to express their gender and modify their body in any they like with full access to human rights and legal protections, but I can at least understand bigoted arguments even if I don't agree with their conclusions.

Really looking forward to guidance, but thanks for listening to me vent either way.


Edit: Oh, and for extra fun, I tried calling up my parents and talking to them about it, but I am not out to them yet and so couldn't explain why it hurt me so much, and was told that they "Don't like talking to me when I am in a whiny mood" and hung up on. Just to give me a small taste of what being disowned feels like on the day I actually come out to them.

I always recommend the Gender Dysphoria Bible. Also, check out the RationalWiki articles.

I was going to answer in depth, but that would require an essay I'm not ready to write right now(future edit: agh, guess I'm writing that essay after all >.<).

Suffice it to say that my research leads me to see gender identity as neurological and endocrine in nature. The theory goes that the interplay of systems that govern the development of a growing fetus (e.g. hormonal exposure) can affect their resulting gender identity and sexual orientation.

In short, I'm trans because my AGAB does not match what I know myself to be, which causes gender dysphoria that manifests in different ways, the only known effective cure for which is to literally transition. No spiritual woo needed, it's just science. As reductive as the 'born this way' statement could be (reductive cos it's more complicated than that), the statement is no less true. Experience and conscious choice for me factor in to my identity in the sense that without even trying (I also can't transition at the moment due to family) I get pinged as fem (experience), and I choose to stop denying my true self because the contrary is too painful to consider (choice).

If we had that hypothetical conversation, it would go something like this:
"I'm a femby."
"What's that mean?"
"My word for 'nonbinary transfeminine', which basically means 'genderfluid between 'woman' and 'nonbinary'."
"Why couldn't you just be a binary trans woman, then?"
"I also ask myself the same question a lot. The best I can come up with is that I don't feel like a binary trans woman. "

Fun fact: I wasn't sure what to think about nonbinary and genderfluid identities once... until I realized those terms explain how I experience gender. Nothing like

I'm new to all this however, so if there's any flaws in my explanation then know that I'm always eager to learn.

[enderlord99]

I clicked that link, and it literally said that gender was "unobservable" which, to me, definitionally precludes meaningful existence.

Does not understanding how people can care about things neither I nor they nor third entity will ever be able to observe mean I'm a transphobic bigot? I hope not, but I suspect so.

[Anonymouswizard]

Fun fact: I wasn't sure what to think about nonbinary and genderfluid identities once... until I realized those terms explain how I experience gender.

I can empathise. I feel like the gender binary is pushed hard enough by mainstream media that it can be hard to realise that these Strange New Terms can fit. I'm not transfem (yet at least), but I've had the same Experiences with terminology.


There's also the issue with how people view their pre-transition self varying, including how people treat their deadnames (which I'd really like to stop learning, even when it's in the context of 'I published this as a young girl' or 'I need two people to sign this document I've written and then it's legally not my name'). Most people I personally know either view themselves as having always been gender X or have no issue with you treating it like that, but I think one person prefers you to treat them as separate people.

[Lycunadari]

I clicked that link, and it literally said that gender was "unobservable" which, to me, definitionally precludes meaningful existence.

Does not understanding how people can care about things neither I nor they nor third entity will ever be able to observe mean I'm a transphobic bigot? I hope not, but I suspect so.

What does "unobservable" even mean? Happiness can't be "observed", so does happiness not exist? History can't be "observed", so does it not exist? Sure, we can look at pictures, read old books, excavate ruins; those are all parts of history, but history itself is a construct.

Gender is a construct, it is what we make of it. For me personally, it's very similar to a feeling, I know when I'm a man just like I know when I'm exited, and I know when I'm nonbinary just like I know when I'm happy. That makes it hard to explain in a way that's not just "I'm nonbinary because my gender is not binary", just like it's hard to explain what "happiness" feels like without just using synonyms.

That said, not understanding gender doesn't make you a bigot, and not understanding why people care about it doesn't either, not automatically. I'm not "soccer-phobic" just because I don't get how people can care so much about sports. What matters is how you treat people- do you use the name and pronouns they tell you to use, including those a lot of people see as weird (like neopronouns)? Do you support trans people's right to self-determination and their right to transition? Do you treat trans people with the same respect you treat cis people? If you can answer yes to all of these questions, you're probably not transphobic. In essence- you don't need to understand us to support us.