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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    Boys don't cry.
    I am going back to this comment because I noticed something weird when I started hormones. Before, I could cry easily. After a while (can't remember how much time) on T, I couldn't. There would be times when I would WANT to cry, but could not force the tears to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dame_Mechanus View Post
    For example, saying "it's a girl" creates the cultural assumption of pronouns and eventual romantic entanglement with boys. It was difficult for me to understand my own gender with the experience of "but... I don't really want to be romantically involved with boys, I want to be romantically involved with women" because at the time I was discovering that side of myself, it was the mid-90s and that was still culturally far outside of the expected gender role for a woman.
    I also came out in the mid-90s - and was engaged to a man when I did!

    I had an interesting conversation with a lesbian in her mid-20s recently. She never had a coming out because she always knew she's gay. In contrast, at some point when growing up in the 80s, I realized gay people exist. But there were none in my very tiny hometown* and I didn't meet a gay person until I went to college. (I played on my college women's rugby team, which I was told is a anomaly because the team was "mostly straight.") It never crossed my mind that I could be a lesbian**, even though in hindsight, I could see the signs.


    * In the decades since I graduated and moved away, I know of 2 other people near my age who have come out. But none of us were out in high school!

    ** I came out as a lesbian at age 20 and a transman at 30.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Question. What does gender therapy actually entail? Google is giving me a bunch of "how to find a gender therapist" and posts about the generalized benefits that gender therapy can provide, while I'm curious what the therapy does to help prepare you for life after you come our and/or medically transition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    The reason I was curious, though, was because I saw some virulently transphobic claptrap and started pushing back against it, only to realize that it'd be handy if I actually knew what I was talking about. I figured that there's talk therapy before anything medical happens, and was curious where I could find out more about that. Well before the medical interventions that transphobes keep fixating on.

    Edit:


    This, largely. Again, my curiosity comes from a place of wanting to be informed when I tell transphobes just how wrong they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Largely. Also what sorts of things a competent therapist would want a person to know before medically transitioning, and possibly before social transition/large scale coming out.

    Basically if someone came in whose primary sources of information were transphobic fearmongering about how transgenderism expected small children and confused young adults to jump right to medical transition (generally using much coarser language), I was curious what the actual process entailed for the purpose of calling out said fearmongering.
    I don't know what therapists do today since I started my transition 16 years ago. I had been seeing my therapist for other issues for a while, so adding on gender dysphoria was just another topic. She didn't have specific experience with gender issues so couldn't give me any help in that specific area. But she was able to work my gender issues in with the rest of the reasons I was seeing her.

    At the time, I was living in a location that had a clinic that specialized in medical issues for the queer community. The clinic did require a therapist letter before they would let people start HRT. (Obviously, I had a letter from my long-time therapist.) They were also gatekeeping a little harder than normal at the time because a character on The L Word had recently started transition and a lot more AFAB were coming in saying they wanted to be like Max. (I never watched The L Word, and when asked if my transition had anything to do with Max, I gave the nurse practitioner a weird look.)

    About 3 years after I started T, I moved to another state in order to go to law school. The school had a psychologist on-site to work with students (because law school is mentally tough). I went to her and asked if she knew any endocrinologists who take trans patients because I needed to find a doctor to prescribe my hormones. She wasn't able to point me towards one, even though I found out several years later that the local university had an active queer group and there were doctors in the area who did work with trans patients.
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  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Largely. Also what sorts of things a competent therapist would want a person to know before medically transitioning, and possibly before social transition/large scale coming out.
    Most otherwise competent therapists are rather incompetent when it comes to trans stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Basically if someone came in whose primary sources of information were transphobic fearmongering about how transgenderism expected small children and confused young adults to jump right to medical transition (generally using much coarser language), I was curious what the actual process entailed for the purpose of calling out said fearmongering.
    It depends on the country or state or province. My opinion (as well as the opinions of some other trans people) is that we can do with a little less gatekeeping re: these lifesaving medicines and surgeries. If someone's seriously committed to transphobia, talking about the gatekeeping that already exists will be ineffective. If someone isn't, but has transphobic beliefs, I think it'd be better to explain why it's important that trans people get bodily autonomy and choice.

    Of course, I try not to talk with transphobes. So I'm shooting in the dark here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    I am going back to this comment because I noticed something weird when I started hormones. Before, I could cry easily. After a while (can't remember how much time) on T, I couldn't. There would be times when I would WANT to cry, but could not force the tears to come.
    Oh, interesting. I've definitely heard this before, as well as the other way around (estrogen eases crying). Personally, HRT hasn't really changed me emotionally, and I've been on it for several years. So either there's some body weirdness going on with me, or it's some kind of placebo effect related to our cultural beliefs around hormones.

    Of course, "boys don't cry" is applied to literal babies, so I reckon it can't just be hormones.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    Most otherwise competent therapists are rather incompetent when it comes to trans stuff.
    Yeah, when it comes to any kind of medical care you're better off with a specialist. The mark of a good general practitioner is, in some ways, how well-networked they are and if they can properly refer you to a competent specialist.

    (And of course have the insight to realize when a problem is beyond their expertise.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Yeah, when it comes to any kind of medical care you're better off with a specialist. The mark of a good general practitioner is, in some ways, how well-networked they are and if they can properly refer you to a competent specialist.

    (And of course have the insight to realize when a problem is beyond their expertise.)
    Yeah, 100% agreed. This seems all right to me. Sucks that therapists who specialize with trans people are so rare. But mental health care is pretty hard to get in general. So people take what they can get.

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    furious Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    I had a rather awkward conversation with my boss at lunch yesterday.

    It started with him saying when (not if, when) I trade my wife in on a "younger model," having kids would be expected. I glossed over the point that I CANNOT HAVE CHILDREN and pointed out that she and I have been married for 10 years and I have no intention of "trading her in." He commented back that his parents were married for 20 years before they divorced.

    Then he asked me if transmen who are trying to get pregnant have to go off hormones. I have no idea. It's never been something I thought about because I am never having children!

    Then he asked if it would have been possible for my wife and I to get pregnant at the same time when we first started dating. At this point, I did tell him I'd had surgery before I ever met her.

    But yeah, how did I get myself roped into that conversation????
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    I had a rather awkward conversation with my boss at lunch yesterday.

    It started with him saying when (not if, when) I trade my wife in on a "younger model," having kids would be expected. I glossed over the point that I CANNOT HAVE CHILDREN and pointed out that she and I have been married for 10 years and I have no intention of "trading her in." He commented back that his parents were married for 20 years before they divorced.

    Then he asked me if transmen who are trying to get pregnant have to go off hormones. I have no idea. It's never been something I thought about because I am never having children!

    Then he asked if it would have been possible for my wife and I to get pregnant at the same time when we first started dating. At this point, I did tell him I'd had surgery before I ever met her.

    But yeah, how did I get myself roped into that conversation????
    Report him to whoever can strip the flesh from his bones for being a absolute ****ing creep *******. This man is the scum of human society.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2022-07-27 at 07:53 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    I had a rather awkward conversation with my boss at lunch yesterday.

    It started with him saying when (not if, when) I trade my wife in on a "younger model," having kids would be expected. I glossed over the point that I CANNOT HAVE CHILDREN and pointed out that she and I have been married for 10 years and I have no intention of "trading her in." He commented back that his parents were married for 20 years before they divorced.

    Then he asked me if transmen who are trying to get pregnant have to go off hormones. I have no idea. It's never been something I thought about because I am never having children!

    Then he asked if it would have been possible for my wife and I to get pregnant at the same time when we first started dating. At this point, I did tell him I'd had surgery before I ever met her.

    But yeah, how did I get myself roped into that conversation????
    That seems like a good question for HR.
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That seems like a good question for HR.
    Yeah. LPT, you can get HR involved for just about anything that is none of your nosy coworker's business, but if even the vaguest hint of sexuality is involved, even tangentially, it's a sure-fire way to get them reprimanded and in retraining pronto.

    Companies really like not being sued. It's like their second favorite thing after making money.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2022-07-27 at 08:09 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    But yeah, how did I get myself roped into that conversation????
    Yikes. That sucks a lot. It especially sucks that he's your boss.

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    @TaiLiu:

    Sorry I didn’t respond to you in more depth, been busy with moving, and I was obviously getting your position mixed up with Juniper’s (not to mention twitter randos).

    Still trying to figure out this whole gender thing, but just when I think I have it figured out I read something that further confuses me.


    Out of curiosity, I am starting to feel like gender is to sex as culture is to race. Does that make sense to anyone else?
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Out of curiosity, I am starting to feel like gender is to sex as culture is to race. Does that make sense to anyone else?
    Nope. I don't understand any of the four. Race is a non-thing really, people can and do breed with any other people. I hate fashion and I fear culture is just another word for fashion.
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    I think there are some nice similarities between the two sets, in that the meaning of "race" and "culture" also differ depending on the language used (and ironically, the culture of the person speaking/hearing the word).
    Without going into too much detail, "race" in American English seems to mean something very different from the English I've been taught.

    But of course it's true for almost all words that their meaning will differ from person to person.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Out of curiosity, I am starting to feel like gender is to sex as culture is to race. Does that make sense to anyone else?
    Not really: discrete race is proven to be a bogus concept, culture is explicitly taught and can be switched at will (not easily, mind, but it's possible), and isn't really discrete as well, sex is physically defined and usually falls into discrete binary scale, hermaphrodites and other exceptions being relatively rare, and gender is mostly in-born too, even though more of a continuum, otherwise there wouldn't be any need for SRS in the first place, as any sort of gender dysphoria would only need psychotherapy and counseling in this case.


    Also, I vaguely recall the gender identity being unfalsifiable as a feature and an explicit point of some definitions, though I cannot remember why it was done so (if I ever knew).

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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    @TaiLiu:

    Sorry I didn’t respond to you in more depth, been busy with moving, and I was obviously getting your position mixed up with Juniper’s (not to mention twitter randos).
    No worries. I was in fact defending Juniper's position, so I get the confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Still trying to figure out this whole gender thing, but just when I think I have it figured out I read something that further confuses me.

    Out of curiosity, I am starting to feel like gender is to sex as culture is to race. Does that make sense to anyone else?
    No. Adding more vague and hotly debated constructs arguably confuses the issue more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigako View Post
    gender is mostly in-born too, even though more of a continuum, otherwise there wouldn't be any need for SRS in the first place, as any sort of gender dysphoria would only need psychotherapy and counseling in this case.
    I don't think that follows, but I get the intuition. It's one of the reasons I used to subscribe to the neurological gender argument.

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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    So, another confusing thing I got off twitter the other day. A transwoman who had just undergone feminization surgery was complaining about the term "feminization" because in their mind they were always a woman, and therefore everything about them was, by definition, completely feminine.

    Which again, to me is the epitome of a meaningless circular argument, but at the same time is about the only definition of gender identity I ever see. The equivalent of "I am Gandalf, and Gandalf means me!"


    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    No worries. I was in fact defending Juniper's position
    That's what I thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    No. Adding more vague and hotly debated constructs arguably confuses the issue more.
    You don't understand or you don't agree?

    If the former, the idea is that sex and race are both collections of anatomical traits that are generally shared by a certain population of humans, and that gender and culture are a certain set of behaviors that are generally shared by a certain set of humans, and people often conflate sex with gender and race with culture.

    Of course, that really doesn't have anything to do with "gender identity" which is what I am really trying to wrap my head around.
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    You don't understand or you don't agree?

    If the former, the idea is that sex and race are both collections of anatomical traits that are generally shared by a certain population of humans, and that gender and culture are a certain set of behaviors that are generally shared by a certain set of humans, and people often conflate sex with gender and race with culture.

    Of course, that really doesn't have anything to do with "gender identity" which is what I am really trying to wrap my head around.
    In my case, I don't agree. A race is something mystical that is shared by some population, that excludes all people not of that population. There is no such thing in human genetics. There are genetic aberations that occur at random in all populations, and there are genes that are more common in some populations than others, but I am unaware of any genes that are exclusive to any particular populations.
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    In my case, I don't agree. A race is something mystical that is shared by some population, that excludes all people not of that population. There is no such thing in human genetics. There are genetic aberations that occur at random in all populations, and there are genes that are more common in some populations than others, but I am unaware of any genes that are exclusive to any particular populations.
    I agree. Nothing in biology is so precise.

    Still, there are enough shared anatomical characteristics, that I imagine most people can guess what region of the world most people’s ancestors can from by looking at them.

    Race and sex aren’t a 1 to 1 comparison for sure, I am not trying to make that claim, what I am pondering is how closely the link between sex and gender is akin to the link between race and culture.
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Gender was (apologies if I've already said it) coined to mean the aspects of sex which weren't tangible, but were observable.

    Consider emotions. You know "happy" means. If someone feels happy, they recognise the feeling. Some people are better than others at hiding how they feel, but overall, if someone's happy you can tell from their behaviour. People instinctively understand that interacting with someone when they're happy is different to when they're sad. People understand that some people feel happy more often that others.

    It's hard to pin down what it is, but it's clearly there.

    And yet, if you were to try and explain what it means to be happy, your choices are; a) "I dunno, I just feel happy" or b) absurdly complicated philosophy.

    A trans person (and to a lesser extent a cis person)'s gender can be observed through euphoria or dysphoria in a similar way. We know it exists, even if we can't quite explain where it comes from.
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    My current understanding of gender is a concept that humans made up. the definition is entirely arbitrary and subject to both change over time and extreme variance in interpretation by distinct individuals.

    It's really only important for social reasons, and honestly, those social reasons can go screw themselves for all I care, and for the psychological reason of "identifying as this gender makes me feel good/bad on the inside."

    At the end of the day the only definition of gender that matters is the one that makes you happy.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2022-08-02 at 04:04 PM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    My current understanding of gender is a concept that humans made up. the definition is entirely arbitrary and subject to both change over time and extreme variance in interpretation by distinct individuals.

    It's really only important for social reasons, and honestly, those social reasons can go screw themselves for all I care, and for the psychological reason of "identifying as this gender makes me feel good/bad on the inside."

    At the end of the day the only definition of gender that matters is the one that makes you happy.
    I would 100% agree with you… but the problem is that we can no longer discus “sex” without having to detangle it from gender.


    I also get a lot of gatekeeping from friends who say that because I currently think of myself as a man, I will always be a man, no matter what I do to transition, which is a weird ideological horseshoe that starts to sound a lot like transphobic people telling me that Because I was born with a Y chromosome I will always be a man no matter what I do to transition.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2022-08-02 at 04:39 PM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I also get a lot of gatekeeping from friends who say that because I currently think of myself as a man, I will always be a man, no matter what I do to transition, which is a weird ideological horseshoe that starts to sound a lot like transphobic people telling me that Because I was born with a Y chromosome I will always be a man no matter what I do to transition.
    Bah! I flit between man, woman, agender, and pissoff with regularity, and my body shape, tone of voice, chromosomes, genitals, or anything else have nothing to do with it.

    Although if I lose a lot of weight I'm going to look into HRT. But one thing at a time, and the weight is more important.

    So screw them, our thought process is yours, and not theirs. Human gender (and sexuality) is not as solid and unchanging as people think. If you ever stop thinking of yourself as a man and start thinking of yourself as a woman then congratulations, you are now a woman, whether or not anything has changed
    Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2022-08-02 at 08:26 PM.

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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    If you ever stop thinking of yourself as a man and start thinking of yourself as a woman then congratulations, you are no a woman, whether or not anything has changed
    I think our anonymously magely friend meant now a woman, from context.

    But this sentiment is also correct. It can be complicated, but if you decide tomorrow that you are a woman, you are a woman just as surely as me. Someone who knew their gender from a young age is just as valid as someone who only recently discovered it, and while there are definitely different experiences living as a cis woman compared to a trans woman, that does not invalidate either of their womanhood. (Ditto trans men, nonbinary folks, genderfluid friends, and so forth.)
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    You don't understand or you don't agree?

    If the former, the idea is that sex and race are both collections of anatomical traits that are generally shared by a certain population of humans, and that gender and culture are a certain set of behaviors that are generally shared by a certain set of humans, and people often conflate sex with gender and race with culture.

    Of course, that really doesn't have anything to do with "gender identity" which is what I am really trying to wrap my head around.
    Both, but now just the latter. That you think race is a biological kind, though, suggests that we really do live in different worlds with different conceptual constructs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I also get a lot of gatekeeping from friends who say that because I currently think of myself as a man, I will always be a man, no matter what I do to transition, which is a weird ideological horseshoe that starts to sound a lot like transphobic people telling me that Because I was born with a Y chromosome I will always be a man no matter what I do to transition.
    Your friends sound unsupportive.

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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    Both, but now just the latter. That you think race is a biological kind, though, suggests that we really do live in different worlds with different conceptual constructs.
    Not sure if I would say that it is a biological kind, just that groups in different parts of the world have different tendencies with a high enough statistical frequency that you can usually tell by looking at someone where their ancestors are from.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    Your friends sound unsupportive.
    For sure. Although I think they are trying to be supportive, just doing it by adamantly supporting a single trans narrative that they have picked up somewhere along the way.
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Not sure if I would say that it is a biological kind, just that groups in different parts of the world have different tendencies with a high enough statistical frequency that you can usually tell by looking at someone where their ancestors are from.
    Oh, I see. I guess I don't have that skill, although that might be cuz I have trouble with faces. Like, I can usually tell when someone's white or Black or something. But no way can I pinpoint Italy or Haiti or other ancestral origins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    For sure. Although I think they are trying to be supportive, just doing it by adamantly supporting a single trans narrative that they have picked up somewhere along the way.
    Maybe the knows-from-childhood narrative?

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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    Oh, I see. I guess I don't have that skill, although that might be cuz I have trouble with faces. Like, I can usually tell when someone's white or Black or something. But no way can I pinpoint Italy or Haiti or other ancestral origins.
    Yeah, most people can't narrow it down that close unless they are very familiar with said populations, but I think pretty much everyone can, as you say, tell when someone's white or black or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    Maybe the knows-from-childhood narrative?
    Yeah, that's definitely one. I personally didn't really suspect I was genderqueer until college (although looking back I can sure see the signs in retrospect) but several of my friends insists that all transpeople are born that way and always know from early childhood.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Yeah, that's definitely one. I personally didn't really suspect I was genderqueer until college (although looking back I can sure see the signs in retrospect) but several of my friends insists that all transpeople are born that way and always know from early childhood.
    Yeah, that one's a really old narrative. I wonder where it came from.

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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Another fun win for us; Bridget is back in Guilty Gear and her story mode is her coming to grips with the fact, and choosing by her own will to be, a trans girl.

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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    Yeah, that one's a really old narrative. I wonder where it came from.
    Yeah. One of my friends’ brother medically transitioned and is now his sister. But my friend still insists that she isn’t “really trans” because she didn’t realize she was trans until almost thirty and their family friend, who is a child psychologist, corroborates this because je never exhibited any of the signs of gender dysphoria growing up.

    And I hear him talk like this, and am just like so what do you think about me who is almost forty and still hasn’t medically transitioned. What do I have to do to be “really” trans in your eyes?
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    Default Re: LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

    It sounds like your friend has a toxic attitude and is trying to gatekeep being trans.
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