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    Default [Legendary Games] [PF] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Welcome to the Kheshig open play test! Rajah author here with another Akashic class! This new akashic frontliner is now available for playtesting and your games. The Kheshig excels at drawing enemy fire to themselves, protecting weaker allies from dangerous foes.

    For those of whom who are wondering about the Kheshig, it is a tanky class created to introduce people to Akasha by creating a high power floor via its generous class features, allowing the player to choose veils at their leisure and learn how veilweaving works, without worrying about hamstringing themselves too much.

    For those who have experience with Akasha, the Kheshig introduces 48 new veils (and a few feats) to help round out your veilweavers, or give them new tricks.

    All in all, I hope that you enjoy this class, and if you have any issues, please let me know!

    This playtest will be running from 2/18 to 3/11, with a ranged archetype coming on 3/4.

    You can find the playtest here
    Last edited by AGrinningCat; 2021-02-20 at 08:47 PM.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    It's a pretty busy class, so I don't even know where there would be room to add more stuff, but....

    It just bugs me that they can get two combat styles, allowing them to adapt to which is more beneficial to the fight, but are stuck with one chosen armor specialization.

    That just might be me, I admit.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by StSword View Post
    It's a pretty busy class, so I don't even know where there would be room to add more stuff, but....

    It just bugs me that they can get two combat styles, allowing them to adapt to which is more beneficial to the fight, but are stuck with one chosen armor specialization.

    That just might be me, I admit.
    That's a valid point! My counter point would be -- How often do you switch armors? Especially in combat! You can get two weapon styles since a lot of weapon veils can use one or the other (dancing glaive can use two handed, unarmed, or twf, for example), but you typically can't benefit from unarmored and heavy armor at the same time.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    I am liking the class a great deal! I have read it through once, and will need to do so again, to provide a more detailed response, however, the following are just two things that popped out to me (nothing wrong per se):

    1 - Titan Weapon Style: This does not grant a bonus feat like the the other styles, not sure it really matters, but thought that I would point it out as I like a certain pattern when it comes to class ability progression.
    2 - Juggernaut Blade: Why not simply allow the blade to function as a heavy steel shield (albeit one that offers the shield bonus to AC per the ability write-up)?

    More to follow once I give this another once over. :)

    Cheers
    Volf

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volfogg View Post
    I am liking the class a great deal! I have read it through once, and will need to do so again, to provide a more detailed response, however, the following are just two things that popped out to me (nothing wrong per se):

    1 - Titan Weapon Style: This does not grant a bonus feat like the the other styles, not sure it really matters, but thought that I would point it out as I like a certain pattern when it comes to class ability progression.
    2 - Juggernaut Blade: Why not simply allow the blade to function as a heavy steel shield (albeit one that offers the shield bonus to AC per the ability write-up)?

    More to follow once I give this another once over. :)

    Cheers
    Volf
    Thank you for reading the class and posting! For your concerns:

    1 - Titan weapon style is the dedicated 2h style. Unlike other 'styles' in pathfinder, 2h really has no need for feat support since 2h works right out the gate, so it got something else in its stead
    2 - There isn't any direct reason -- So I've changed Juggernaut blade to be more accommodating for shield usage.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    Thank you for reading the class and posting! For your concerns:
    It's a great class! Thanks for sharing.
    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    1 - Titan weapon style is the dedicated 2h style. Unlike other 'styles' in pathfinder, 2h really has no need for feat support since 2h works right out the gate, so it got something else in its stead
    Makes sense to me!
    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    2 - There isn't any direct reason -- So I've changed Juggernaut blade to be more accommodating for shield usage.
    This change is perfect!

    Another thing that's been nagging me is the lack of being able to apply either a) enhancement bonuses to their veils [Enhanced] or b) a progression, similar to the monk ki pool ability, whereby progression in the class allows their veils [Enhanced] to overcome certain damage reduction types. Maybe something like the following:

    Akashic Anvil (Su)
    : Within the confines of the Kheshig's body there exists an akashic anvil with which he is able to temper and reforge his veils [Enhanced] into ever more powerful forms. As the Kheshig progresses his mastery over his internal magical energies grant the following benefits when wielding his veils [Enhanced]:

    At xth level, akashic anvil allows his veils [Enhanced] to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
    At xth level, his veils [Enhanced] are also treated as cold iron and silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
    At xth level, his veils [Enhanced] are also treated as an alignment type possessed by the Kheshig.
    At xth level, his veils [Enhanced] are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
    Another option would be a feat, similar to Craft Magic Arms and Armor, which allows a Kheshig to enhance his veils [Enhanced].

    Cheers
    Volf

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    That's a valid point! My counter point would be -- How often do you switch armors? Especially in combat! You can get two weapon styles since a lot of weapon veils can use one or the other (dancing glaive can use two handed, unarmed, or twf, for example), but you typically can't benefit from unarmored and heavy armor at the same time.
    Actually, that's part of why the rules as written bug me- since generally you can only benefit from one armor at a time, giving them more armor specializations wouldn't increase their power level in a fight one iota.

    So why force them to specialize in one type of armor forever and ever and ever?

    What exactly would it break if it were "armor adaptation: they gain the listed benefit whenever they wear the appropriate armor?" Would that have anyone say "OP, please nerf?"

    The Aegis class has a similar class feature, and they actually do have the ability to switch what kind of armor they wear in combat.

    Or if the class feature allowed them to retrain the class feature if a light armor specialist runs into a really sweet suit of heavy armor, or if they had a religious epiphany and decided to multiclass into monk?

    "Like with an hour of combat practice in which they wear (or not wear in the case of unarmored) the appropriate armor, the character can switch what type of armor they specialize in?"

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    I did a brief skim but initial questions.

    Are any of their veils shapable by other classes? A few seem great for Rajah and those seem like an excellent pair. Other seem perfect for a Path of the Crafter Vizier, but that could be stepping on DSP toes so I get it. Ask them maybe, they are around here. Is this planned to be updated?

    In the same vein, are any veils usable by other veilweavers shapeable by them? If so which? Or if not a comprehensive list any idea of the type of veils that could be?

    I will build one soon to check some numbers, I am running a heavily akashic game and there is a big tournament coming up that I can easily drop a new exotic fighter into to see how they fare.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    This class needs its theme to be focused and pulled to the forefront. For an incarnum bodyguard class, the obvious thing is shaping soulmelds on your chosen "charge" rather than on yourself -- or perhaps having "sympathetic" soulmelds that manifest on both yourself and your target, granting synergistic effects (ie, lets you each take 1 extra 5 foot step per round per invested essentia, but only if it brings you closer to the other).

    The bulwark "improved" benefit is good, it's clean and thematic. The other fighting styles have nothing to do with the class theme and should be deleted -- the class is too crammed and they don't contribute anything.

    The class could use more fluff. I'm not getting what the fluff is around akashic mark. It seems all over the place. What's the connection between a Mongolian bodyguard and teleporting behind someone? More importantly, how is this an "akashic" mark? If this is an incarnum tank class, its mark mechanism needs to interact with incarnum. Just slapping the name on doesn't do anything. It seems like its soulmelds don't even have any interaction with the mark.

    The mark's effects seems a little scattered -- it's like all the marks from 4e classes rolled into one. How about incorporating the combat style choice into the Akashic Mark ability? Ie, it provides the basic effect and then an additional effect based on your combat style choice. One could be teleporting, one could be blocking, one could be AoOs. Then the 5th and 17th level upgrades would stay for all. Or each soulmeld could add an effect to your mark when chakra bound.

    Armored by Akasha has the same problem as weapon styles. No connection to either the class theme or to the incarnum/akasha subsystem.

    The idea of a mystic eastern oriental bodyguard in a brass mask, utterly devoted to their emperor or khan or rajah, has potential and an incarnum tank would be cool but the class doesn't deliver on its theme. Theme, theme, theme.


    (Even if you don't want to go all in on the bodyguard theme and just want it to be a frontliner, the lack of soulmeld/essentia interaction in its class features is a problem.)
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volfogg View Post
    [Enhanced] problems
    Give me some time to consult some people on this. I understand this problem now that you've brought it to light, and I'm going to mull over the options to try to find an elegant solution.
    Quote Originally Posted by StSword View Post
    A lot of good words
    Quote Originally Posted by StSword View Post
    Would that have anyone say "OP, please nerf?"
    Unfortunately, yes. I agree with your words, but it's the perception of power that makes the class seem better than it would be in practice. I'll try to talk to some people about this, but I don't have high hopes that this will change. Still, I'll give it my best shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    I did a brief skim but initial questions.
    Veils will get proliferated to other classes once I've made sure they're all functioning and not broke in half. As far as Kheshig receiving any veils, they already have a large list, but I'm open to suggestions if people think its a good idea.

    Rajah won't get any new veils (As all of its veils are tied to Path of War disciplines, so unless there are new disciplines, there won't be new veils). The [Enhanced] veils probably won't be proliferated, but I'm looking at all of the others and deciding where they should go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    (Even if you don't want to go all in on the bodyguard theme and just want it to be a frontliner, the lack of soulmeld/essentia interaction in its class features is a problem.)
    The truth is:

    Spoiler
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    The class is supposed to be only lightly flavored, like Fighter or Rogue. Rather than presenting a theme, the class is what you make it. This is needed cause Kheshig is supposed to be an entry point to the system; you're as bland as a fighter conceptually, so you can dress yourself up however you want. Simple and Accessible are the two words for this class. This leads to the second point:

    The class's class features are supposed to be cut, dry, and straight forward. You're not supposed to do a lot of interaction with them. Rather, they are the floor for you to stand on, keeping you up while you juggle with your veils. This way, you're not too limited on what you can do, regardless of your veil loadout, allowing players to experiment and explore with the system at their leisure.

    The reasoning is that I've received a lot of complaints about the system being arcane or hard to get into; people look at Daevic or Zodiac and are overwhelmed by options, or play Vizier and feel ineffective because their veil loadout. This class is aimed to solve that problem; with nearly each class feature raising your power floor so you're not struggling due to bad decisions, or tying into the akashic system somehow to have people go and look at those rules. An easy example is Weapon veils, which are presented first, with huge sidebars for their descriptors -- This teaches you to look at descriptors. Further down you can find the Undetectable descriptor, which should lead you into seeing how your other veils can be identified and noticed. Steady does both -- Calling out that save DCs don't normally work like this: Teaching you how save DCs work in the system, but also giving you a good floor so your abilities at least connect with low essence. Some veils feature essence burn, which will lead you to those rules. Some veils sunder themselves, leading you to those rules, and so on and so forth.

    This is also why there are very little choices in the class chassis itself -- You choose what weapon you want to use and armor, and all your 'real' choices come from what veils you wish to shape. Adding in more choices pulls focus towards the class chassis rather than the veils themselves, which are the core and meat of the akashic system.

    Essentially, the light flavor and simplistic class features are by design -- Class features are strong enough so you don't feel bad if your veil selection is terrible (So people don't associate the feeling of playing an Akashic class as something terrible), while being broad enough that any individual who wants to play a 'tank' or otherwise frontline person can fit within the theme of the class.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    The class is supposed to be only lightly flavored, like Fighter or Rogue. Rather than presenting a theme, the class is what you make it. This is needed cause Kheshig is supposed to be an entry point to the system; you're as bland as a fighter conceptually, so you can dress yourself up however you want.
    Rename to a basic word then IMO. "Kheshig" is too obscure to draw entry point players and too particular to be generic.

    The reasoning is that I've received a lot of complaints about the system being arcane or hard to get into
    MoI from the start was criticized as being hard to understand, and those were classes that had almost no class features beyond the melds. The complexity criticism is about the subsystem itself, not class features.

    Part of it is the arcane terminology. Someone posted a whole thing where they refluffed soulmelds as cybertech enhancements, which I thought was far more intuitive. Gadgets or attachments instead of melds/veils, energy instead of essence. That's the supplement I would write to make incarnum more accessible and popular. A class with a weird Mongolian name isn't going to do that.

    Trying to give them a non-incarnum chassis and then incarnum on top of that is counterproductive because it makes the class even more intimidating due to feature cram. Looking at the table it's too much. If you integrate the abilities it actually becomes simpler. I agree with you that a good way to do class design is one style or subclass type choice that creates differentiation within the class, with the other abilities largely flexible day to day. My suggestion for paring this one down is cut the armor and weapon style abilities and replace them with a single ability that determines what rider effect your mark gains (teleport, AoOs or concealment) rather than all 3 being baseline.

    The mark is something that, if you want this class to be simple and approachable, should be cut. But if you do include it it's awkward to have it be disjointed from the class's other features. Having separate parts is more complicated than a unified whole. And this class has so much to read that it's absolutely not a beginner class. Making it be one requires serious paring down. But since a beginner isn't going to choose a class with a weird name like "kheshig", nor are you going to solve incarnum's approachability problem without addressing the system itself, it makes more sense IMO to go all out on making a cool incarnum/akasha bodyguard.
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    Give me some time to consult some people on this. I understand this problem now that you've brought it to light, and I'm going to mull over the options to try to find an elegant solution.
    An intereting take on this would be to have an essence resceptacle, similar to Akashic Anvil, whereby the Kheshig would invest essence in order to gain the listed benefits. However, this would mean that essence would be in short supply. :(

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    Veils will get proliferated to other classes once I've made sure they're all functioning and not broke in half. As far as Kheshig receiving any veils, they already have a large list, but I'm open to suggestions if people think its a good idea.
    Only thing missing from the veil list, as far as I can tell, would be some "armor-like" veils, similar to Breastplate of the Righteous.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    The truth is:
    ... snip
    If this is the case, possibly change the name and tweak the fluff into a more generalist theme? Maybe call the class Akashic Knight or some such thing. A warrior who also masters the principles and usage of veil weaving. Nice and simple. With what you have already a player could concentrate on one of the usuall tropes (sword and board, unarmed, two-handed sword etcetera). Although I still feel that Akashic Mark could use a tweak or two (possibly even removed all together), I just can't put my finger on it.

    Cheers
    Volf
    Last edited by Volfogg; 2021-02-20 at 05:27 PM.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Rename to a basic word then IMO. "Kheshig" is too obscure to draw entry point players and too particular to be generic.
    Akashic Mysteries core and Rajah (The class I wrote) all use 'silk road'-esq naming; I'm continuing this trend. We're we in an earlier stage of development, I might have considered the name (and indeed, Kheshig was not always Kheshig), but I believe it's a bit too late at this point. Kheshig (the name) was indeed picked to be a counterpart to the Rajah; even if most games won't allow for both classes at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    MoI from the start was criticized as being hard to understand, and those were classes that had almost no class features beyond the melds. The complexity criticism is about the subsystem itself, not class features.
    This is why class features are simple -- I don't want people focusing on them. Anyone who has a basic system mastery of Pathfinder can gloss over these features and understand what they do in an instant -- Fighting styles make you fight better. Armor styles makes your armor better. Akashic mark takes some reading (And if I could simplify this, I would), but its understandable once you've read it. These things aren't "new" to any pathfinder player; and that's by design. Everything new essentially is pushed into the veilweaving side. Giving them akashic class features puts focus on those class features, which is the opposite of what I want.

    The purpose of the class features is to A) Be simple enough to understand and B) Be powerful enough that a player isn't scrambling to make Kheshig function. This is why a lot of the early class features hand out bonus feats or abilities to make your avenue of attack functional. Want to unarmed? You get Improved unarmed strike and 1d6 fists. Want to dual wield? You get TWF and the ability to use STR instead of Dex. These qualify for both A and B of the class features.

    Nominally, the best way to go about this would be similar to the conscript or the incanter from Spheres of Might/Power, where players are just thrown to the proverbial wolves, but we have a class like this (Vizier), and due to the dependence on its veils, this causes its own problems. If you mess up your veil selection; you may be underperforming for the day; or maybe for the entire campaign, if you're repeatedly making this mistake. The B) portion of these class features keeps the power floor up high enough, that with nearly any random selection of veils (So long as you're matching a weapon veil to your fighting style), that you'll be on par with other non-Path of War 3pp classes; give or take depending on your actual choices.

    Now, if I were to remove Fighting style/armor style, I'd be dropping both the power floor, making players scramble to make up via feat choices (Which I don't want, I want them to be looking at akashic feats, understanding how they work, as well as understanding how non-veil containers work, hence Reinforced class feature). I could remove Akashic Mark all together, but then the class actually becomes bland (rather than just slightly bland), and you'd have to figure out other ways to contribute to a team besides 'apply damage to face' which nearly anyone else can do; which again moves player's focus elsewhere as they try to make u

    Quote Originally Posted by Volfogg View Post
    An intereting take on this would be to have an essence resceptacle, similar to Akashic Anvil, whereby the Kheshig would invest essence in order to gain the listed benefits. However, this would mean that essence would be in short supply. :(
    This could be interesting as a feat, but I feel it may be a bit weak to take vs other feats, especially if you do have a crafter around to actually give you the +x stuff. Again, I'm looking into this for a more elegant solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volfogg View Post
    Only thing missing from the veil list, as far as I can tell, would be some "armor-like" veils, similar to Breastplate of the Righteous.
    This class was written largely before armor-like veils even existed. This isn't a terrible idea, and may serve to replace Armored by Akasha armor benefits all together. The only thing I'm worried about here is word count, but Armaments of faith is only 300 words. I could squeeze in maybe 2ish armor veils per 'style' (light/medium/heavy/unarmed) at 1200 words per set (2 veils per would be 2400), but I have to keep an eye on the word count to account for the ranged archetype as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Volfogg View Post
    If this is the case, possibly change the name and tweak the fluff into a more generalist theme? Maybe call the class Akashic Knight or some such thing. A warrior who also masters the principles and usage of veil weaving. Nice and simple. With what you have already a player could concentrate on one of the usual tropes (sword and board, unarmed, two-handed sword etcetera). Although I still feel that Akashic Mark could use a tweak or two (possibly even removed all together), I just can't put my finger on it.
    Since you're the second person to note on this, I'll do some talking about it, but I don't know if it'd be good to change the name this late in development.

    As far as Akashic mark goes; it has played smoothly in the few combats I've ran against it, so I'm surprised to see so many complaints about it. If you do manage to place a finger on it, let me know, as you're not the only one with a hang-up on this ability.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    Akashic Mysteries core and Rajah (The class I wrote) all use 'silk road'-esq naming; I'm continuing this trend.
    Kheshig done in a fully thematic way would be a great akashic class. You could also do a good beginner/basic class to introduce players to the subsystem. Right now, this class is splinched between those two goals and doesn't fulfill either. Choose one and go all the way with it.

    Akashic mark takes some reading (And if I could simplify this, I would)
    Here:

    Akashic Mark (Su): At 1st level, whenever you make a melee attack against a creature, hit or miss, that creature is marked for 1 round. Creatures other than you have concealment against them, and they have a 20% spell failure chance when they cast a targeted spell or spell-like ability that doesn't include you as a target. These penalties only apply when they could choose to target you instead.

    The first time each round a given creature triggers one of the above penalties, they take 1d6 untyped damage after their attack or spell is resolved. This damage increases by 1d6 at each odd-numbered class level thereafter.
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Due to Volfogg's feedback, I've added in the Akashic Arms and Armor feat. This should allow veilweavers (or other individuals who may poach an Enhance veil via other means) to enhance their enhancables without needing a wizard nearby. You'll still need Spellcraft; however. Do let me know if you all feel that this is an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Kheshig done in a fully thematic way would be a great akashic class. You could also do a good beginner/basic class to introduce players to the subsystem. Right now, this class is splinched between those two goals and doesn't fulfill either. Choose one and go all the way with it.
    I believe I have gone in on making a good beginner class; I have refuted your opinions in the earlier post with stances I believe to be solid. I recognize this as a matter of opinion; however, and you're entitled to your own. While the name may change, I believe the class features are largely in a good place, save the conversation I had with Volfogg earlier.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Here:

    Akashic Mark (Su): At 1st level, whenever you make a melee attack against a creature, hit or miss, that creature is marked for 1 round. Creatures other than you have concealment against them, and they have a 20% spell failure chance when they cast a targeted spell or spell-like ability that doesn't include you as a target. These penalties only apply when they could choose to target you instead.

    The first time each round a given creature triggers one of the above penalties, they take 1d6 untyped damage after their attack or spell is resolved. This damage increases by 1d6 at each odd-numbered class level thereafter.
    This is missing out on a lot of things:
    Concealment and miss chance are two different things (Concealment is an effect that grants Miss Chance)-- Miss chance is also used to place the % in the text so that individuals don't need to go searching for it.
    Wording in Akashic mark includes text referencing area of effect attacks, such as Fireball. This only references targeted spells. Note that Fireball doesn't target anything; as its an area of effect spell, and creatures caught within the area are subjected to its effects.
    This lacks wording for when the marked target cannot hit the Kheshig (Kheshig under the effects of Earthglide, for example)
    "Akashic Pulse of Power" is used instead of untyped damage because of the lack of clarification around rules regarding untyped damage. It's simpler for the player to have all the text regarding the ability within the ability, so that players aren't opening the book for odd cases.
    This also lacks text in regards to how many times a creature can be marked (A party with two Kheshigs, for example).

    The size of the text may be intimidating and seemingly complicated, but the majority of it is for odd cases or clarification purposes. You mark a person, and if that person makes a hostile action that isn't against you, they take damage. I don't feel this violates any of the goals going into this class.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    ... snip

    As far as Akashic mark goes; it has played smoothly in the few combats I've ran against it, so I'm surprised to see so many complaints about it. If you do manage to place a finger on it, let me know, as you're not the only one with a hang-up on this ability.
    I finally managed to figure out what was bothering me, I find the ability out of place to be honest. For me theme is extremely important when reviewing new classes and is the driving force if I allow them in my games. In this instance, I believe Akashic Mark is just sort of ... disjointed, and doesn't feel quit right as part of the class. I would have liked to see something a bit more thematic or in line with what the class does .... use Akasha. Although the ability itself is well done!

    As an example, instead of Akashic Mark why not an ability to open a special chakra center that allows them to attain the same zen state (along with a few different perks and bonuses) of Mushin or something similar. Another take on this would be allowing them to inflict upon opponents a baneful veil-like effect. Something like the following:
    Akashic Adjunct (Su): Kheshig's study a rare form of veilweaving which allow them to apply a veil to their opponent rather than oneself. In order to use this ability the Kheshig must successfully strike an opponent using a weapon from his Akashic Arsenal. As a swift action, the Kheshig can then splinter off a small portion of his own essence in order to apply a veil to his opponent (see below). Unlike normal veils these impose a baneful affect. This ability acts as an essence receptacle, each point invested into this ability enhances whichever veil the Kheshig uses against his opponents. Only one such veil can be active at a given time. If this ability is used again, to inflict a different adjunct veil, the previous one ends immediately. The baneful affect of the veil lasts until the Kheshig uses another swift action to change it, to apply an adjunct veil to another opponent, or the opponent moves more that 30' away from the Kheshig. Whichever comes first.

    • Blind as a Bat[headband]: This veil causes opaque spectacles to appear upon the opponents nose hampering vision. The opponent suffers a 5% miss chance for each point of invested essence.
    • Butter Fingers[hands]: Plush oil slick gloves adorn the opponents hands. These nefarious gloves cause the opponent to drop hand held items on any attack roll which results in a "1". The chance of the opponent dropping items increases by 1 for each point of invested essence.
    • Scared of the Dark[head]: A gauzy hood of shadows and spider webs causes the opponent to see beastly shadows and other monstrosities out of the corner of their eye. This results in the opponent taking a penalty, equal to the number of invested essence, to all saves versus fear affects.
    I hope that my ramblings are in some way helpful!
    Cheers
    Volf
    Last edited by Volfogg; 2021-02-20 at 07:30 PM.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volfogg View Post
    I hope that my ramblings are in some way helpful!
    Cheers
    Volf
    They are! Having people talk about their opinions or the way they see things is always helpful. More to your post; saying it feels disjuncted with the rest of the class is a valid point. However, I don't think making it more complex is the way to go. I'm still open to options, though.

    Let me ask you this in return -- To you, what makes a class feature or feat feel Akashic?

    Edit for follow up question: Are there any akashic class features that don't feel akashic to you, from other classes?
    Last edited by AGrinningCat; 2021-02-20 at 07:56 PM.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    They are! Having people talk about their opinions or the way they see things is always helpful. More to your post; saying it feels disjuncted with the rest of the class is a valid point. However, I don't think making it more complex is the way to go. I'm still open to options, though.

    Let me ask you this in return -- To you, what makes a class feature or feat feel Akashic?
    I am glade that my ramblings are somehow useful. :P Now, on to your point, for me at least an ability must be evocative of the overlying idea of the class. In this case; akasha. Taking that into account, especially in regards to what makes something "feel" Akashic, is in how the ability, power, feat etcetera, reflects that. Looking at Akashic Mark, I have to question how does this reflect the theme of the Kheshig which is an Akashic based class? Akasha can be incorporated in a few different ways, what if Akashic Mark was a receptacle? What if you could use essence burn to further improve the ability? What if you could temporarily consume the opponents life-force for temporary essence? These are a few examples of what I mean.

    Keep up the great work! I love Akashic classes.

    Cheers
    Volf

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    A note about large unarmed attacks doing 1d8 would be nice. There are large races.

    Heavy Armor training seems a bit overtuned. It means you auto escape all grapples and movement effects, as well as get the DR. If you are going to go that far then make it apply to difficult terrain as well. Because entangle as a quick example does not reduce your speed, nor your ability to run or charge if you are inside, but it does because its difficult terrain. It also does if you enter from outside, because its difficult terrain, but it doesn't cause its caused by someone. This needs cleaning up at the very least.

    Veil stuff, mostly clarity, and I am likely VERY nitpicky
    Spoiler
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    Clarity on enchanced veils. If someone crafts magic arms and armor a weaponlike enhanced veil that then gets unshaped either by resting and reshaping or any means, should be stated that when reshaped it keeps all its enhancements.

    Staff of Ten-Thousand Truths: This appears to be the only veil that sets the unarmed damage to 1d6 even if small. Oversight or intentional? Also can other things increase unarmed damage? Say using a veil that gives you an effective or actual size increase?

    Juggernaut blade: Swift to enter, swift to leave. So you use a swift round 1 to enter first form, swift round 2 to leave, then a swift round 3 to enter second form. So you get no form benefits round 2, or between round 2 and 3 if you swift after your normal actions?

    Hardlight Axe: How many axes by default does this create? What happens to the copy axe after you fling it? Does in place or an attack mean its an alternate or an additional effect for the attack? If the flung axe is permanent while you have veils, if you pick it up post battles can you still use it as a ranged melee attack? Or a normal ranged attack?

    Mark of the Gate Guardian: Does the ally shield bonus to AC stack like the normal veil or is it locked at 1? Seems underpowered for a bind if it always is 1.

    Twin Thunders: Should be paired, or explicitly laid out that you create 2 hammer. Also are you immune to the sonic burst? The burst shape affect everything in the range which includes you.

    Mark of the wounded Beast: The normal attack mentions ignores immunities, which makes the bind worthless, unless the enemy is immune to poison and bleed, then it would only take the poison damage on the failed save but not the bleed.

    Still waters Clear Skies: Assuming I have essense to burn, is there a limit to how many times I can attack for each miss? You mention as an immediate or burning essense, so what action if any does the essense burn take? Assuming I am missed 4 times in a round, could I burn 3 essense and my immediate to take 4 attacks? Also is the essense investment count on just this special AoO or ALL AoOs giving you Super Combat Relflexes.

    Blade of Stone and Air: Does the bind effect supersede the limitation of number of motes?

    Craftsmen's Belt: The SLAs, is it one "slot" that you can cast any of the spells out of a numbers of times equal to your veilweaving modifier, or can you cast each spells veilweaver modifier number of times? I am assuming the former based on wording, but since no where else does a sincle SLA equal multiple spells just clarifying.

    Mask of the Hunter: 5 points is a LOT of essense for +1 to hit and damage on the bind which does not really scale well. You get a normal max of 7 essense after level 16 which gives +3 hit and damage which is pretty bad rate. Maybe scale by 2/3 per point past 5? Especially since like most akashic stuff it is an insight bonus so multile sources are not stacking.

    JUggernaut Plating: For the bind, who rolls the attack? The veilweaver makes any required attack roll to hit the original attacker, but all other effects (such as the bonus to attack) use the bonuses and abilities of the original attacker. Which is it? Also a line about being able to use the redirect on ranged touch attacks or rays would be consistent with other such abilities.

    Charred Angelic Winds: Description bind is shoulders. In the text the bind is Body. Which is it? Also, is the damage with the bind added to the feather attack, or something like an aura effect?


    Feats Much shorter.
    Spoiler
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    Unified Theory: The feat as written only says "You may add enhancement bonuses, weapon, armor, and shield special qualities" but it mentions applying materials in the second part. Can you add materials, and if so what is the cost, is it per 'track' or a one time investment into it?

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] [PF] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Possibly unrelated question:who designed this?
    Do we have Rajah designer back in the saddle?
    For the record,Rajah is my favorite Akashic class,bar none.
    That being said,i'm starting to reading it,and i have problem with either a name or function of Akashic Mark.
    Mongols are archers,but the mark only works on melee attacks?What?
    Can't we have it work on everything,preferably area effects,too?There is still a need to re-apply it every round.
    Last edited by Draacul; 2021-02-20 at 09:23 PM.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] [PF] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    I believe I have gone in on making a good beginner class.
    It's forty pages long.

    I just sense a little disjunction here. You say you designed this class to be the answer to people's complaints about the complexity of the akashic classes. But then you're set on doubling the length of the text to cover edge cases, adding an extraneous mark feature that doesn't connect to their other abilities, + adding weapon veils in addition to standard body slots.

    This is not a criticism of you. Just that when designing anything, it's important to decide what your priorities are and hold to them.

    So is this going to be a complex class? If so, the lack of feature interaction is a problem. Or is it going to be a beginner class? If so, it's too long and too busy.
    Last edited by Elves; 2021-02-20 at 09:20 PM.
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volfogg View Post
    I am glade that my ramblings are somehow useful. :P Now, on to your point, for me at least an ability must be evocative of the overlying idea of the class. In this case; akasha. Taking that into account, especially in regards to what makes something "feel" Akashic, is in how the ability, power, feat etcetera, reflects that. Looking at Akashic Mark, I have to question how does this reflect the theme of the Kheshig which is an Akashic based class? Akasha can be incorporated in a few different ways, what if Akashic Mark was a receptacle? What if you could use essence burn to further improve the ability? What if you could temporarily consume the opponents life-force for temporary essence? These are a few examples of what I mean.

    Keep up the great work! I love Akashic classes.

    Cheers
    Volf
    I'll keep this in mind when I get to Akashic mark -- I'm in the process of seeing how Armored by Akasha would look as a class feature similar to Akashic Arsenal, but with armor-like veils. Thank you for your input! I ended up asking another question in the edit; I'd appreciate it if you could take a look at that as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    A note about large unarmed attacks doing 1d8 would be nice. There are large races.

    Heavy Armor training seems a bit overtuned. It means you auto escape all grapples and movement effects, as well as get the DR. If you are going to go that far then make it apply to difficult terrain as well. Because entangle as a quick example does not reduce your speed, nor your ability to run or charge if you are inside, but it does because its difficult terrain. It also does if you enter from outside, because its difficult terrain, but it doesn't cause its caused by someone. This needs cleaning up at the very least.

    Veil stuff, mostly clarity, and I am likely VERY nitpicky
    I'll get this cleaned up -- Notably large races should get their unarmed size increases as normal, so I'll try to hammer some wording down for it

    HAT was not intended to allow you to escape grapples, but it's worded poorly, so I'll see about getting that cleaned up; although it may not be for a bit since I'm planning on working the entirety of Armored by Akasha

    Veil concerns:
    Spoiler
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    Staff of 10k truths doesn't allow your dice damage to go below 1d6 to prevent people from shrinking their dice size to cause infinite attacks. This is working as intended
    Jug blade: Added wording, dropped exiting a form to a free action
    Hardlight Axe creates 1 by default, but you can create . You can't 'dupe' copies now, so thats fixed.
    Mark of the Gate Guardian increases the shield AC by 1; so it stacks with itself, yes
    Twin Thunders (And similar veils) have been updated to reflect that they create multiple weapons. Rules for multiple weapons and enhanced items can be found under the enhanced descriptor.
    Mark of the Wounded Beast's normal attacks do not ignore immunity to poison or damage; the damage from the poison ignores damage, and if they're bleeding, deals an additional point of bleed damage. The bind causes your unarmed attacks to ignore bleed damage and your poisoned dagger to ignore poison damage.
    Still Water, Clear Skies: Burning essence is not an action; you can just burn 1 essence per attack that misses you, as long as you have attacks of opportunities to make. You'll burn out of essence super quickly though if that's what you're planning! The essence benefit for Still Waters, Clear Skies is all AoOs, so you can burn more essence the more you have invested, or just use your AoOs normally.
    BoSaA: The bind doesn't let you hold more essence, but does explicity call out you get an additional mote in addition to the one you get when you hit someone.
    Craftsman belt: Clarified; each spell is its own pool
    Charred Angelic Wings was a copy/paste error, the veil is shoulders. Thanks for catching this!
    Juggernaut plating: You make the roll, but you use the enemy's bonus to attack. So if they had a +10 from whatever bonuses, and you have a +12, you'd use a +10 to hit them. Added wording for touch-attack stuff.

    So, for mask of the hunter, it's not like you're not receiving no benefit from essence 1-5. I'm leery about giving more bonuses to hit/damage , but if more people complain about it, I'll bump up the number. I'm posting this outside of spoilers so I can get feedback on Mask of the Hunter.

    As far as the feat goes; I've updated the text to reflect that you can add special materials to the feat.

    Thank you for all your feedback!

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] [PF] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    It's forty pages long.
    What are you talking about? The class is 5 pages long. I've seen core classes with more pages than that. The rest of it is veils and feats. I've never seen anyone complain that a magic book had too many spells in it, or that a book for martials had too many combat feats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    I just sense a little disjunction here. You say you designed this class to be the answer to people's complaints about the complexity of the akashic classes. But then you're set on doubling the length of the text to cover edge cases, adding an extraneous mark feature that doesn't connect to their other abilities
    You call the Akashic Mark "extraneous" when it is very clearly the main class feature, like a Paladin's Smite Evil. How many class features does Paladin have? And how many actively interact with Smite? Yet Smite is clearly the Paladin's main class feature, their primary way of interacting with combat. Everything else, the combat styles, the armor training, the extra HP, are all vehicles to carry the Kheshig through combat. They are not, in and of themselves, the Kheshig's "main thing".
    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    + adding weapon veils in addition to standard body slots.
    I don't know if you've misread it, but the [enhanced] veils still use the normal Akashic veil slots. That is to say, generally the Hands and Wrists slots for offensive veils.
    The Library of Metzofitz: An up-to-date reference document for all of your Akashic, Path of War, and Psionic needs. In the works: Gonzo and Legendary material.

    Pathfinder Caster Spreadsheet: For when you need to check if there's a spontaneous caster Witch or a Charisma-based Alchemist (the answer is yes). Includes manifesters, initiators, and veilweavers. Now with a colorblind version!

    Akashic Character Sheet: Tracks invested Essence, plenty of space for veils and other Akashic hullabaloo.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] [PF] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Possibly unrelated question:who designed this?
    Do we have Rajah designer back in the saddle?
    For the record,Rajah is my favorite Akashic class,bar none.
    That being said,i'm starting to reading it,and i have problem with either a name or function of Akashic Mark.
    Mongols are archers,but the mark only works on melee attacks?What?
    Can't we have it work on everything,preferably area effects,too?There is still a need to re-apply it every round.
    I am the Rajah designer! I'm glad you like my class, and I hope you like this one too!

    Mongols were archers yes, but also used axes, daggers, spears, lances, and occasionally swords. Kheshigs were largely there as a way to prevent assassins; which bringing a bow to fight with an assassin would be very

    I'm making two changes to Akashic Mark for the mean time (As I'm probably going to give it a bigger change once I figure out what I want to do with it)
    Akashic Mark now triggers on damage rather than attack -- This allows enemies to have at least some defense against it (although you can still swift-mark them, but that eats up your actions).
    I'm also removing the melee limit. The class doesn't have very many ranged attacks (range archetype will come later), but for those that it does have, you'll be able to mark people with it.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] [PF] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    It's forty pages long.

    I just sense a little disjunction here. You say you designed this class to be the answer to people's complaints about the complexity of the akashic classes. But then you're set on doubling the length of the text to cover edge cases, adding an extraneous mark feature that doesn't connect to their other abilities, + adding weapon veils in addition to standard body slots.

    This is not a criticism of you. Just that when designing anything, it's important to decide what your priorities are and hold to them.

    So is this going to be a complex class? If so, the lack of feature interaction is a problem. Or is it going to be a beginner class? If so, it's too long and too busy.
    Kris discussed some of the stuff already, so I'll touch on what she missed:
    Weapon veils are still normal veils. The Akashic Arsenal class feature is because players would take weapon veils regardless if they got it for free or not -- This ended up become a false choice in veil selection, which is not what I wanted.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] [PF] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kris Moonhand View Post
    I don't know if you've misread it, but the [enhanced] veils still use the normal Akashic veil slots. That is to say, generally the Hands and Wrists slots for offensive veils.
    The opposite actually. Enhanced is the +1 and does not interfere with the normal slot. You can have an enhanced hand and a normal hand both bound at once with no issues.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] [PF] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    I am the Rajah designer! I'm glad you like my class, and I hope you like this one too!
    I literally play Rajah now.This one...well,i can certainly say that i like it more than City of 7 Seraphs veilweavers. There is a potential here.It does sounds relatively simple to use,though being melee gimped it like crazy.That being said...
    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    Akashic Mark now triggers on damage rather than attack -- This allows enemies to have at least some defense against it (although you can still swift-mark them, but that eats up your actions).
    I'm also removing the melee limit. The class doesn't have very many ranged attacks (range archetype will come later), but for those that it does have, you'll be able to mark people with it.
    Now it's FAR simpler and easier to use in it's base capacity.There is a lot auto-damaging abilities,including ranged,so that any perspective offender will be more than likely marked.
    Speaking of mark,i like it's progression,but 17th level ability might as well not be there.I mean,it's rocket tag by that point and we NOW get unlimited duration on marks?

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] [PF] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    The opposite actually. Enhanced is the +1 and does not interfere with the normal slot. You can have an enhanced hand and a normal hand both bound at once with no issues.
    That's a class feature, not an inherent part of the rules for [enhanced] veils.
    The Library of Metzofitz: An up-to-date reference document for all of your Akashic, Path of War, and Psionic needs. In the works: Gonzo and Legendary material.

    Pathfinder Caster Spreadsheet: For when you need to check if there's a spontaneous caster Witch or a Charisma-based Alchemist (the answer is yes). Includes manifesters, initiators, and veilweavers. Now with a colorblind version!

    Akashic Character Sheet: Tracks invested Essence, plenty of space for veils and other Akashic hullabaloo.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] [PF] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    I literally play Rajah now.This one...well,i can certainly say that i like it more than City of 7 Seraphs veilweavers. There is a potential here.It does sounds relatively simple to use,though being melee gimped it like crazy.That being said...

    Now it's FAR simpler and easier to use in it's base capacity.There is a lot auto-damaging abilities,including ranged,so that any perspective offender will be more than likely marked.
    Speaking of mark,i like it's progression,but 17th level ability might as well not be there.I mean,it's rocket tag by that point and we NOW get unlimited duration on marks?
    I'm glad you liked the Rajah!

    As far as the 17th level ability; I'm open for suggestions, but like I said, I'm looking into changing how it functions. If it doesn't, however, what would you like to see an upgrade at 17th level do?

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] [PF] Kheshig Open Playtest. An Akashic Frontliner.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGrinningCat View Post
    I'm glad you liked the Rajah!

    As far as the 17th level ability; I'm open for suggestions, but like I said, I'm looking into changing how it functions. If it doesn't, however, what would you like to see an upgrade at 17th level do?
    I'm not a designer,but i do play a lot.And almost never reach that level.Which,to me,seems that finishing ability on defining class feature should have capstone-level power.Also considering that capstone here presently is kinda lackluster.
    Again,i'll bring Rajah into this!
    What does she get as a capstone?
    Very literal immortality,coupled with inability to actually being killed AND when somebody tries especially hard she pulls one-winged angel!
    Whereas Kheshig gets...a fourth-level-power-equivalent?
    So,to mark.What can be a capstone-level to it?Well,removing limits on number of triggers of akashic pulse per round would be a good start.
    Yes,we'll counter that pesky dragon six times,big shock-wizards did it since level seven.

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