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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    I've always liked Cheliax and their flirtation with outright cosmic evil - seems like fertile ground for conflict and adventure fodder - but I'm not surprised that the edition change's metaplot advancement had them completely overtaken by devils and devil-worshippers. Seems like the natural result of making deals with the devil on a national scale. Inspired by an old character I developed, I'm interested in examining how a smarter and more pragmatic society might operate under similar circumstances.

    Imagine a powerful nation whose military might owes in large part to pseudo-Goetic binding of fiends. They summon fiends to fight their enemies, and when their enemies are defeated, they promptly banish or, if possible, destroy the fiends. Summoning is strictly regulated and sanctioned only for state summoners, who undergo a long, meticulous training to ensure that every time they summon a fiend, they're in complete control. Deal-brokering is strictly prohibited: if the summoning ritual doesn't grant you 100% authority over the fiend (including the ability to banish it), you are not allowed to perform it. This means that rather than portaling in an archfiend, you're mostly going to be seeing low-level, easily controllable fiends used as expendable troops on par with a normal soldier.

    The first implication I can see is that in a culture where this practice is common is that you're going to get a lot of amateur and/or malicious individuals inspired to summon fiends when they're not capable of controlling them; the second is that this nation is going to develop a reputation for brutality even if they're not seen as being corrupted by contact with evil; the third is that this nation is probably going to be interested in branching out and subsidizing not just their military but their labor force with bound fiends. What might be some further implications?
    Last edited by jinjitsu; 2021-02-19 at 07:26 PM. Reason: forgot prefix

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    I've always liked Cheliax and their flirtation with outright cosmic evil - seems like fertile ground for conflict and adventure fodder - but I'm not surprised that the edition change's metaplot advancement had them completely overtaken by devils and devil-worshippers. Seems like the natural result of making deals with the devil on a national scale. Inspired by an old character I developed, I'm interested in examining how a smarter and more pragmatic society might operate under similar circumstances.

    Imagine a powerful nation whose military might owes in large part to pseudo-Goetic binding of fiends. They summon fiends to fight their enemies, and when their enemies are defeated, they promptly banish or, if possible, destroy the fiends. Summoning is strictly regulated and sanctioned only for state summoners, who undergo a long, meticulous training to ensure that every time they summon a fiend, they're in complete control. Deal-brokering is strictly prohibited: if the summoning ritual doesn't grant you 100% authority over the fiend (including the ability to banish it), you are not allowed to perform it. This means that rather than portaling in an archfiend, you're mostly going to be seeing low-level, easily controllable fiends used as expendable troops on par with a normal soldier.

    The first implication I can see is that in a culture where this practice is common is that you're going to get a lot of amateur and/or malicious individuals inspired to summon fiends when they're not capable of controlling them; the second is that this nation is going to develop a reputation for brutality even if they're not seen as being corrupted by contact with evil; the third is that this nation is probably going to be interested in branching out and subsidizing not just their military but their labor force with bound fiends. What might be some further implications?
    While it can be fine to have demons fighting the opponent outside of your own lands having them work in your own lands ought to scare most people so I could see demons in the land being extremely regulated up to the point nobody would want to use them.

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    It sounds to me that the military strategists would want to use demons, devils, and the like as an espionage asset. We don't want these things running around OUR country, after all! So, maybe there is a team of summoners directing these entities to spy on and sabotage adversary nations and maybe there is a team of exorcists whose job is keeping these beings from being a problem in the homeland.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by SandyAndy View Post
    It sounds to me that the military strategists would want to use demons, devils, and the like as an espionage asset. We don't want these things running around OUR country, after all! So, maybe there is a team of summoners directing these entities to spy on and sabotage adversary nations and maybe there is a team of exorcists whose job is keeping these beings from being a problem in the homeland.
    Hm. Sabotage seems pretty likely, and having spies you can basically consider disavowed once they're sent on their mission would be handy. But do you think they'd be willing to trust reconnaissance being reported by fiends? I think even if the fiends were being totally honest, I'd assume they're either deliberately lying or bending the truth to lay a trap for me.

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    I'm just thinking of how one could use a bound lemure as for example a perpetual winch driver or other no-skill things. Especially in dangerous areas like underwater, or mines, or high fire regions (like inside forges-fire immunity and all...or set up permanent kilns for bricks or ceramics with a wall of fire inside and use them to bring in materials ready to be fired and take them out again when done.) Basically where a no air, no light, so sleep, tireless, fire and poison immune human would be handy.


    and there are specialists...look at the Su and Spell like ability lists for ideas here.

    lots of them have things like detect lies and true seeing. Which could come into play in such things like trials...actually I could the justice system having several uses for devils.
    and Bone Devils are noted for having "perfect memories" and hyper lawful. Which could lead to powerful binding circles (set up by the highest binder-mages) that hold them permanently to becoming like notaries.
    outside of government fucntions there are a few for example.
    Addiction Devils for help in high security alchemical processing areas.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by sktarq View Post
    I'm just thinking of how one could use a bound lemure as for example a perpetual winch driver or other no-skill things. Especially in dangerous areas like underwater, or mines, or high fire regions (like inside forges-fire immunity and all...or set up permanent kilns for bricks or ceramics with a wall of fire inside and use them to bring in materials ready to be fired and take them out again when done.) Basically where a no air, no light, so sleep, tireless, fire and poison immune human would be handy.
    This is so basic and practical that I can't believe I didn't think of it. Having a creature that's inexhaustible, cosmically compelled to follow orders, and too mindless to exploit loopholes is incredibly useful. I'm now imagining a second nation that does the same thing, but with modrons: the two nations come into conflict as they expand and both are trying to smear the other as evil to potential allies - the modron-binders say the devil-binders are evil for invoking the powers of Hell, while the devil-binders say enslaving evil creatures is just two wrongs making a neutral; the modron-binders are evil because they're enslaving neutral beings!

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Good aligned nations may, either intentionally or not, generate characters who see the demon-binding as weakening the barrier that separates the planes. These characters may take it upon themselves to solve the problem by slaying or banishing the demons.

    Not all of the would-be exorcists would be good or good at it, causing the occasional demon to be released from its binding.

    Temples which oppose demon summoning may encourage crusades.

    Whatever form it takes, the rest of the world won't stand by looking as their rival gains an advantage.

    Crusades lead by celestials, riots to burn any texts,(or practicioners,) of summoning, whole cities protected by gargantuan magic circles, or commonly available means to detect demons all come to mind. I'm sure many other possibilities exist, but it's certain the opposition wouldn't sit back and watch.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Good aligned nations may, either intentionally or not, generate characters who see the demon-binding as weakening the barrier that separates the planes. These characters may take it upon themselves to solve the problem by slaying or banishing the demons.

    Not all of the would-be exorcists would be good or good at it, causing the occasional demon to be released from its binding.

    Temples which oppose demon summoning may encourage crusades.

    Whatever form it takes, the rest of the world won't stand by looking as their rival gains an advantage.

    Crusades lead by celestials, riots to burn any texts,(or practicioners,) of summoning, whole cities protected by gargantuan magic circles, or commonly available means to detect demons all come to mind. I'm sure many other possibilities exist, but it's certain the opposition wouldn't sit back and watch.
    I've definitely imagined these practices would rub a lot of people the wrong way; these are all good specifics of how.

    On the topic of temples/crusades, this could make for some really interesting internecine conflict in neutral or more aggressive good faiths: a sect inside the nation oversees the summoning to ensure it's performed safely and may be responsible for training summoners, and they're in conflict with the main body of their faith outside the nation, who view this practice as directly in opposition to their tenets.

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    oh if you want the nation to rationalize.

    Every lemure, war devil etc, bound to our nation is one devil not threatening the nations of good under the leadership of the Archdevils. Each binding slightly weakens the army of evil, and frees up resources here in our nation to advance the cause of good. It allows us to use additional magic (such as walls of fire etc) in combination to use far less impact on the natural world (less firewood) and ease the toil on the good citizens of our nation (preventing the need for exploitation of fellow citizens in the worst jobs) so that they can spend more time praying, bonding with their families, and taking care of the poor. And these creatures existence is better under us than the perpetual punishment under their superiors in the Seven Hells. And of course these are beings that we absolutely KNOW are evil and have been judged so by the great divine system we all live under. And divine Wheel expressly demands these souls be punished (see the torture of LE bound souls) and thus endless toil is fitting thing.
    Last edited by sktarq; 2021-02-20 at 07:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    Hm. Sabotage seems pretty likely, and having spies you can basically consider disavowed once they're sent on their mission would be handy. But do you think they'd be willing to trust reconnaissance being reported by fiends? I think even if the fiends were being totally honest, I'd assume they're either deliberately lying or bending the truth to lay a trap for me.
    In the real world, you always assume your sources have an angle. A lot of resources are dedicated to pinning down what, exactly, that angle is. If you know that then you can determine how much you can trust your source's information. You also don't go off of one source, you try get at least 2 but ideally 3 sources to confirm the intel. I think having demons and psychic intelligence in your world would add a very "realistic" feel to the situation. And the CIA would agree, see Project Stargate; it was the CIA's psychic intelligence program.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by SandyAndy View Post
    In the real world, you always assume your sources have an angle. A lot of resources are dedicated to pinning down what, exactly, that angle is. If you know that then you can determine how much you can trust your source's information. You also don't go off of one source, you try get at least 2 but ideally 3 sources to confirm the intel. I think having demons and psychic intelligence in your world would add a very "realistic" feel to the situation. And the CIA would agree, see Project Stargate; it was the CIA's psychic intelligence program.
    That's a good point - I was assuming an all-fiend recon team, but sending out summoner/fiend teams would be really effective.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    I think the only legitimate demon or devil disposal is converting them to good.
    If that is not possible then it is cruel to kill them, dangerous to just let them leave and dangerous too to try to trap them forever.
    So the issue of disposing of them is probably unmanageable.
    Last edited by noob; 2021-02-21 at 11:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    I think the only legitimate demon or devil disposal is converting them to good.
    If that is not possible then it is cruel to kill them, dangerous to just let them leave and dangerous too to try to trap them forever.
    So the issue of disposing of them is probably unmanageable.
    I mean, we're talking about a military that uses demons to prosecute objectives. I don't think cruelty is beyond them. An order of paladins probably wouldn't play around with it, but a kingdom desperately in need of some advantage probably would. Kind of like North Korea working so hard to develop nuclear weapons. They need them to survive, even though the practical and ethical ramifications of it are so steep.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    I think the only legitimate demon or devil disposal is converting them to good.
    If that is not possible then it is cruel to kill them, dangerous to just let them leave and dangerous too to try to trap them forever.
    So the issue of disposing of them is probably unmanageable.
    (Emphasis mine)

    I assume the popularity and assumption of the "redeemed fiend" is part of the influence of Planescape (especially Torment with Fall-From-Grace being a party member). In all the settings I've enjoyed most (and all the ones I've made), fiends are just physical manifestations of primordial evil; they're literally incapable of doing good without being forced into it, and destroying them amounts to removing a chunk of purely malicious energy from the cosmos.

    Mind you, in that case, I think enslaving or compelling them instead of destroying them is mildly evil. My calculus is that it's an evil act (enslavement of a sentient being), performed for a neutral cause (advancing the cause on one's nation), with a minor incidental good effect (very slightly weakening the forces of evil). A nation would have to be pretty darn Good outside of this practice to balance out even on the Good side of Neutral.

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    A nation would have to be pretty darn Good outside of this practice to balance out even on the Good side of Neutral.
    Isn't that a classic story, though? Doing evil to defend the good. Weighing the consequences of your own actions to determine if it was truly justified. Is it worth defending the innocent if you become a monster in the process? Its a great premise for a story IMO.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by SandyAndy View Post
    Isn't that a classic story, though? Doing evil to defend the good. Weighing the consequences of your own actions to determine if it was truly justified. Is it worth defending the innocent if you become a monster in the process? Its a great premise for a story IMO.
    Oh for sure! This is exactly the kind of stuff that makes for juicy full-campaign hooks.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    (Emphasis mine)

    I assume the popularity and assumption of the "redeemed fiend" is part of the influence of Planescape (especially Torment with Fall-From-Grace being a party member). In all the settings I've enjoyed most (and all the ones I've made), fiends are just physical manifestations of primordial evil; they're literally incapable of doing good without being forced into it, and destroying them amounts to removing a chunk of purely malicious energy from the cosmos.

    Mind you, in that case, I think enslaving or compelling them instead of destroying them is mildly evil. My calculus is that it's an evil act (enslavement of a sentient being), performed for a neutral cause (advancing the cause on one's nation), with a minor incidental good effect (very slightly weakening the forces of evil). A nation would have to be pretty darn Good outside of this practice to balance out even on the Good side of Neutral.
    I explicitly said that it was unlikely you could redeem the fiends(there is settings where you can not) and that it was why disposing of them was hard.
    There is also settings where you need to kill the fiend while it is in its origin plane for really destroying its evil energy or else it just rebuilds itself and it makes disposing of them even harder (unless you have a stable foothold in those evil planes or something).
    A quite hilarious idea would be to invade an evil plane by using fiends bound from that plane to fight the other fiends of that plane.
    Would it be a good thing to bind fiends from a plane to make them fight other fiends of that plane within the plane in order to invade that plane or would it be terribly evil?(I think it would be terribly evil but other people could see it differently)
    Last edited by noob; 2021-02-22 at 08:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Would it be a good thing to bind fiends from a plane to make them fight other fiends of that plane within the plane in order to invade that plane or would it be terribly evil?(I think it would be terribly evil but other people could see it differently)
    Maybe that's just a part of their eternal torment. A bunch meatbags from the material plane forcing them to fight each other. Which came first? The fiends attacking the mortals or the mortals holding fiendish-gladiatoral-bloodsport?

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by SandyAndy View Post
    Maybe that's just a part of their eternal torment. A bunch meatbags from the material plane forcing them to fight each other. Which came first? The fiends attacking the mortals or the mortals holding fiendish-gladiatoral-bloodsport?
    The idea was to secure a foothold in the fiendish realm to be able to truly kill fiends that were summoned at the end of their service.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Fiendish bloodsports?

    Which way to the arena?

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    I explicitly said that it was unlikely you could redeem the fiends(there is settings where you can not) and that it was why disposing of them was hard.
    There is also settings where you need to kill the fiend while it is in its origin plane for really destroying its evil energy or else it just rebuilds itself and it makes disposing of them even harder (unless you have a stable foothold in those evil planes or something).
    A quite hilarious idea would be to invade an evil plane by using fiends bound from that plane to fight the other fiends of that plane.
    Would it be a good thing to bind fiends from a plane to make them fight other fiends of that plane within the plane in order to invade that plane or would it be terribly evil?(I think it would be terribly evil but other people could see it differently)
    This is kind of what I was getting at with my previous response - if a fiend is a creature of pure evil and destroying all fiends would be a good thing for the universe, then I don't see how killing a fiend would be "cruel," and I don't think it would be "terribly evil" to compel fiends into bloodsport to destroy each other, especially if the loser is destroyed - at best, it's kind of a distasteful version of Neutral or the kind of Evil that doesn't get anyone but crusading paladins mad at you. No mistake, it's a bad look, but I would argue it's less Evil than standard gladiator-on-gladiator bloodsport (and much less Evil than Christians-and-lions bloodsport).

    It's also a huge planar security risk, because you're having to open a portal into the Lower Planes to let spectators through; you risk evil creatures getting through the portal, mortals getting trapped on the other side, and probably some kind of tainting of the Material Plane if you keep it open too long. This practice alone could get you in trouble with most planes-savvy folks.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    This is kind of what I was getting at with my previous response - if a fiend is a creature of pure evil and destroying all fiends would be a good thing for the universe, then I don't see how killing a fiend would be "cruel," and I don't think it would be "terribly evil" to compel fiends into bloodsport to destroy each other, especially if the loser is destroyed - at best, it's kind of a distasteful version of Neutral or the kind of Evil that doesn't get anyone but crusading paladins mad at you. No mistake, it's a bad look, but I would argue it's less Evil than standard gladiator-on-gladiator bloodsport (and much less Evil than Christians-and-lions bloodsport).

    It's also a huge planar security risk, because you're having to open a portal into the Lower Planes to let spectators through; you risk evil creatures getting through the portal, mortals getting trapped on the other side, and probably some kind of tainting of the Material Plane if you keep it open too long. This practice alone could get you in trouble with most planes-savvy folks.
    At no point did I say people would watch.
    You send the fiends to kill other fiends to try to get a 1 fiend summoned at least 1 fiend destroyed ratio (unlike what happens if you let the fiends die in the material plane in which case they just live again) and not for the spectacle.
    So a one way portal could work since you do not need humans to go back and forth from the fiendish realm.
    The invasion could be done with humans in a one way fashion too.(probably by throwing adventurers and other extremely dangerous criminals in the plane and if they get back they are even stronger)
    Last edited by noob; 2021-02-23 at 06:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    At no point did I say people would watch.
    You send the fiends to kill other fiends to try to get a 1 fiend summoned at least 1 fiend destroyed ratio (unlike what happens if you let the fiends die in the material plane in which case they just live again) and not for the spectacle.
    So a one way portal could work since you do not need humans to go back and forth from the fiendish realm.
    The invasion could be done with humans in a one way fashion too.(probably by throwing adventurers and other extremely dangerous criminals in the plane and if they get back they are even stronger)
    Except the slight problem that the criminals that do get back will probably be pissed at the people who threw them into hell. And be even more dangerous when they come back.

    Actually, that could be a great campaign hook- a nation throws all of its criminals into the fiendish realm, but the fiends gave them enough power to cast gate, and now they're invading the mortal plane with an army of fiends.
    How Kraagor's Tomb in #1223 works:

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    CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL! ALL HAIL THE DARK LORD SNUGGLES! MAY HIS EYES NEVER COME TO REST UPON ME!

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerching View Post
    Except the slight problem that the criminals that do get back will probably be pissed at the people who threw them into hell. And be even more dangerous when they come back.

    Actually, that could be a great campaign hook- a nation throws all of its criminals into the fiendish realm, but the fiends gave them enough power to cast gate, and now they're invading the mortal plane with an army of fiends.
    It might have already happened.
    Guess who is ruling this kingdom?
    Powerful people with an army of fiends.
    Last edited by noob; 2021-02-23 at 10:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Now some things also depend on how summoning works in your world.

    if the fiends who are destroyed in the material world reform back in the lower planes is one thing...in some setups a fiend only is permanently destroyed if on it's home plane.

    particularly for smaller fiends ask about the morality of using a call nature's ally where an animal that lives locally is substituted. If a devil who will reform back on their home plane is immoral to call and use this way then calling an animal out of its normal life to suffer and die is FAR FAR worse.

    also if the fiends are actually destroyed in combat then possibly the most morally useful thing one could do is to keep summoning them and destroying them repeatedly. . . easiest way to destroy them is to get them to a place where they die easier...like surrounded by people who are stabbing it with pointy spears....like your neighbors guard unit.

    also there is a question of the looking at other moral issues...like the pain and disruption caused by an army moving through a territory. Most "live off the land" as they go...which can be devastating for the local farmers as their crops are confiscated, their livestock co-opted etc. Fewer families have to have to deal with often horrible issues of billeting troops (major issue leading up to the revolutionary war, some horrible stuff under the French dragoon system, and this stuff goes back at least to the Romans). So smaller armies just plain hurt civilians less. . . that is a pretty unalloyed good. Being able to use an army that has so many fewer people because they pull up masses of flesh to rip apart their foes instead of poking them with sticks is pretty useful to your own and occupied populations..and if you can bind fiends well enough to point them at particular enemies and not others you can probably avoid a LOT of the rape/loot/pillage issues that come with human troops. . . . This as much to point out that other moral choices have negative consequences too. People get hurt by those choices...and if you can avoid that and don't...intentionally choose to hurt people that way...you'd arguably be much more evil.

    does binding/summoning fiends do anything to the fabric of reality? or in other ways make it possible to summon other less controlled fiends easier? (knowledge, ritual components, etc just being easier to find social would be the one you can't really get around but there could be bad effects in general if you want)

    in most DnD summoning spells the fiends only last a couple minutes max. They are best used tactically...for first strikes, the disruption of enemy shield-walls/formations, or to provide fighting cover so that your own troops can fall back and regroup. So they last maybe a couple minutes...and how is the death of their enemies any worse if it is cause by a scorching ray from a bearded devil than a fireball can by any other magic user? And here we get to a serious moral crux. so Devils are evil. so when they have self control and choose what to do they do evil stuff....that's clear enough. But if they are under someone else's control then basically they would act little different than if the magic user was having golems or tables with animate object cast on them...the moral weight goes back to the summoner.

    There also would be serious questions about what to do with Veterans of these summoning units though. they don't loose the skills and in order to get really good control they have probably been holding back a lot of of their potential power....certainly possible while in the military system but the temptation would certainly be there after they left...especially as it would provide solutions for so many of the messy issues that they would run into in life afterward. There may have to be special colonia for them.

    Similarly what about those who are kicked out for ill-discipline or just don't pass the tests of moral fiber that they would NEED in order to keep that unit good/neutral as you were saying.

    Could be interesting if the unit itself was actually following through on the good/neutral but was also constantly sloughing off evil summoners that get exiled and drum up trouble and hate for the home nation all over the region.
    Last edited by sktarq; 2021-02-23 at 06:09 PM.

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    Beholder

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by sktarq View Post
    There also would be serious questions about what to do with Veterans of these summoning units though. they don't loose the skills and in order to get really good control they have probably been holding back a lot of of their potential power....certainly possible while in the military system but the temptation would certainly be there after they left...especially as it would provide solutions for so many of the messy issues that they would run into in life afterward. There may have to be special colonia for them.

    Similarly what about those who are kicked out for ill-discipline or just don't pass the tests of moral fiber that they would NEED in order to keep that unit good/neutral as you were saying.

    Could be interesting if the unit itself was actually following through on the good/neutral but was also constantly sloughing off evil summoners that get exiled and drum up trouble and hate for the home nation all over the region.
    This whole post is great, but these paragraphs in particular have gotten my gears turning. I'm envisioning a scenario where preferential consideration for military officership and public office are used as carrots to keep retired summoners from going rogue, and within a generation you've got a military and/or government entirely run by summoners who are training more summoners because they want to maintain the craft.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    This whole post is great, but these paragraphs in particular have gotten my gears turning. I'm envisioning a scenario where preferential consideration for military officership and public office are used as carrots to keep retired summoners from going rogue, and within a generation you've got a military and/or government entirely run by summoners who are training more summoners because they want to maintain the craft.
    That makes me think retired summoners would probably live as a weird mix of priviliged military retiree and someone under house arrest, constantly watched so that they don't practice their craft ilegally.

    The government would probably need some sort of special forces focused entirely on keeping and eye on summoners, as well as hunting and executing the ones who go rogue.

    Also likely, it'd be in the best interest of the nation (or at least the government) to create and constantly reinforce heavy social stigma against non-government-approved summoning/bidding... And if possible... Find a way to (semi-)permanently remove one's ability to summon/bind demons. Like... Prison in a dead magic zone, or something.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2021-02-27 at 09:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    That makes me think retired summoners would probably live as a weird mix of priviliged military retiree and someone under house arrest, constantly watched so that they don't practice their craft ilegally.

    The government would probably need some sort of special forces focused entirely on keeping and eye on summoners, as well as hunting and executing the ones who go rogue.

    Also likely, it'd be in the best interest of the nation (or at least the government) to create and constantly reinforce heavy social stigma against non-government-approved summoning/bidding... And if possible... Find a way to (semi-)permanently remove one's ability to summon/bind demons. Like... Prison in a dead magic zone, or something.
    I'm really getting a view of this society as treating summoners like spies: even when you retire, you don't really retire, and if you try to, they burn you to avoid you becoming a threat. A summoner who can survive long enough after being burned is going to be both the most well-equipped and the most motivated person to take their former nation down.

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    LOl.
    There could a be a fair few fun things to draw from there.

    Roman Colonia or at least the ones that made up of the land grants given veterans
    The Prisoner
    probably draw for various examination types

    but all this makes it sounds like it would kinda suck to be one of these people.
    so why would people (and not just any old people but the smart, driven, low neuroticism (on the OCEAN model), highly moral people you would need for these units) agree to join these units...and how being under that kind of view from others effect one's personality year in and year out...

    you can have weird results in this....one things being that putting them into civil service roles (another place where being highly public with ones morals and having to resist temptation is useful) ..but also I could easily see it turning people who start loyal and moral resentful and thus willing to lash out (and with the means to do so)

    so with the high costs of monitoring these summoners, and the high costs of training and rewarding these summoners one has to ask the why's...which could well need some crunch at some point. The semi-permanent binding stuff has potential here...especially if you can use ritual magic to take the place of D&D style higher level spells...otherwise this whole system would loose from an economic and logical point of view to just having warmages for example.
    Last edited by sktarq; 2021-03-02 at 03:27 PM.

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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Implications of a demon-binding Neutral/Good military

    From the perspective of "how could this create interesting conflict", I think that such a society's downfall would be the weight of its own bureaucracy. Your original post details that this society would have strictly regimented rules and procedures for all aspects of diabolic summoning. You know who are really good at exploiting rules and procedures? Devils.

    If the Powers Below are aware that an earthly system is exploiting fiends, and safely using them to advance causes of civilization and justice, they're going to take issue with that, and start looking for ways to mobilize that system for their own ends.

    If a summoner is offered a deal by a devil who explains how said deal falls perfectly within the provisions of Summoning Statute B, Article II, Clause IV, might not that summoner take the deal? Because the rules say it's ok, and we have the rules to prevent things from getting out of hand...

    Meanwhile, conscientious summoners who are really dedicated to the common good get retired or prosecuted for failure to duly itemize their quarterly reagent reports and the like.

    Rigid adherence to the protocols and procedures could itself be the gateway to fiendish corruption.
    Last edited by Catullus64; 2021-03-04 at 10:54 AM.
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