Trying to Balance Tier 3-4 Martials vs Casters

[The_Jette]

Well, actually arcane recovery rounds up so level 3 Wizard has 6 first level slots (and ritual casting and cantrips, both of which are relevant combat contributions on this level: Unseen Servant can be a great bonus action with ball bearings and oil + create bonfire, while e.g. Minor Illusion and Mold Earth can punch pretty high up the weight class with smart use). Also, a level 3 Wizard doesn't need spells for comparable contribution: Light Crossbow + Familiar Help is actually comparable to what most martials can do at will, often even better (Fighting Style is only +2 for example). Of course, they probably will have those two level 2 slots for combat contribution (Dragon's Breath & Web are both very solid spells on this level as is Sleep) so when casting a spell is likely enough to prevent significant amounts of damage, there's little reason to not do it.

Again, Wizard's at-will is surprisingly good so it's not like you're burning resources left, right and center. You generally don't need that many Shield-spells per encounter for instance: most enemies will miss naturally and some will hit hard enough that it doesn't matter so it's for when you're facing lots of enemies. Which is probably not every encounter.

Again, a "per encounter" argument is only good against low encounter days. If you only have to worry about one encounter, then you can burn through resources and not care. If you have multiple encounters stretched out through the day, you probably can't afford to use more than 1 spell per encounter. So, the guy who doesn't have to worry about spells, has more hit points, and a higher normal AC is just able to keep going longer. That's not even something that I would think would be up for debate at this point. Side note, though, how exactly is your unseen servant helping by creating a single 5' square that the enemy wants to avoid, especially since it takes 2 rounds (first to spread the bearings, 2nd to spread the oil) and then followed up by you using your action to cast create bonfire? If the enemy was in the square when the ball bearings were put there, they can move out. If they weren't, why would they move into it? That just seems like a strange combo to me. Also, since your Wizard is supposed to be front line, why is he using a crossbow? I would think he'd be using a quarterstaff.

[Eldariel]

Again, a "per encounter" argument is only good against low encounter days. If you only have to worry about one encounter, then you can burn through resources and not care. If you have multiple encounters stretched out through the day, you probably can't afford to use more than 1 spell per encounter. So, the guy who doesn't have to worry about spells, has more hit points, and a higher normal AC is just able to keep going longer. That's not even something that I would think would be up for debate at this point. Side note, though, how exactly is your unseen servant helping by creating a single 5' square that the enemy wants to avoid, especially since it takes 2 rounds (first to spread the bearings, 2nd to spread the oil) and then followed up by you using your action to cast create bonfire? If the enemy was in the square when the ball bearings were put there, they can move out. If they weren't, why would they move into it? That just seems like a strange combo to me. Also, since your Wizard is supposed to be front line, why is he using a crossbow? I would think he'd be using a quarterstaff.

Well, Crossbow is the easy answer for Wizard in general. If we have a melee Wizard specifically, Rapier if they have a physical stat or Toll the Dead if they only have casting stat (e.g. Hobgoblin Iron Wizard doesn't really melee since it doesn't invest in Dex or Str which loses out on 1 point of damage per attack and means you'll use Help to Help someone else in the party, such as your Light Crossbow-using ranged Wizard, but that's largely the same total contribution so it's not that important). Either way, for Unseen Servant:
- Depends on the terrain. If there's a choke point for example, you can split enemies.
- If you have a grappler (or are a grappler), Create Bonfire + Oil is actually pretty brutal.

Those are alternatives, not things you combine. They're ways to convert your at-will extra actions into extra effects. But of course, this is something you can't really show in white room - it's great in e.g. dungeon terrain with lots of chokepoints and narrow corridors but obviously less so on featureless plains.

And generally your 8 spell slots will mean you can cast 1 spell per encounter on most days. It's rare enough to have LRs with more than 8 encounters on this level (they will occur, sure, but they'll be an exception not the norm). And when you do, some encounters are likely easy enough that you won't need to burn anything (hopefully your teammates have resources so you can rotate the one who uses a resource on the hard fights).

[Asisreo1]

You drop to 0 HP, someone casts (Mass) Healing Word. It's a bonus action and you're now up. Compare that to e.g. frightened: Calm Emotions takes concentration and action. That's far more involved.

Or they can cast protection from evil and good.

Or Bless

Or they can use their Bardic Inspiration

Or they can be nearby with an Aura

Or they can cast Heroism before the fight.

Plenty of ways to help against a Frightened ally.

You should focus on the defenses you need the most. +1 Con is going to save you and your party less often than +3-+4 Wis if you face any high level monsters. So take Res: Wis first. Then Lucky is going to help you out more often than +1 Con (rerolling enemy crits is also a massive HP booster) so you take that first. And you really should take some weapon style feat: otherwise you're just wasting potential. At that point you're already 5 ASIs deep or level 12. Level 16 is when I could see you having a free ASI for +Con where you aren't losing out on something more likely to keep you alive and able to contribute for your party.

How do you measure that?

Do you look at how much HP and Wis saves you've succeeded and failed or are you assuming that one comes up more often as a necessity than another. Me, as a frontliner, is far scarier when I have extra beef than when I can resist weird effects because most creatures hit you with attacks.

That's why it isn't +1 Con, its +1 to con checks, saves, and +20 HP each time. Its better to get that beefiness early because alot of enemies at lower levels can do enough damage to take you out within 2 rounds if you have low HP but at upper levels, you have more leeway.

It's okay to have weaknesses but if you literally are forcing party to cast spells and use Concentration constantly to keep you active, they'd be better off without you. That's a fact. There's a line to be trodden between being someone allies can pour resources into and being a resource sink allies must pour resources into, hurting their ability to disable the enemy and protect the party.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I didn't force the DM to target me with a poor save just like the Wizard didn't force the DM to hit them with Constitution Paralysis and knock them out of the fight either. But somebody should help them out if that happens, because of teamwork.

I don't know...I don't feel grumpy at all healing debuffed team members because I know that they do well when they're capable of taking actions. So I don't feel like anybody I heal is a burden, its just an inconvenience.

If you could come up with a way to convince me that every encounter ends up with the fighter debilitated by a Wisdom save, then maybe I'd change my mind. But as far as I can see, fighter's Wis weakness doesn't get any more countered than a Wizard's Charisma weakness or a Bard's Constitution weakness.
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[Kylar0990]

As do 99.999% of all caster vs martial "debates" on these forums. They always assume that the caster is built exactly for that one situation and can effortlessly rebuild for any threat on the fly, while the martial is hobbled under silly assumptions.

In real play, I've not run into these issues at all.

That and it's a PvE game not a PvP game so comparing them against each other instead of looking at how each contribute to the group is silly.

Martials do more consistent damage round by round over the course of multiple combats per day which is what they are suppose to do. They are often the front line so casters can cast buff, debuff, healing or damage spells.

[Eldariel]

Or they can cast protection from evil and good.

Single target and doesn't work on i.a. Dragons. Seems much worse: single target, Concentration, etc.

Or Bless

Also Concentration so doesn't seem that useful. Instead of removing the effect you're praying a reroll with a bonus works? There's a chance of course but that's extremely unreliable (imagine you're fighting an Ancient Dragon with DC 21 Fear; even with +1 Wis and +1d4 Bless you're not much better than 17% to end it - after 4 rolls with bless you finally have a 50% chance of making the save so there's a good chance the fight is over one way or another by that time).

Or they can use their Bardic Inspiration

I wouldn't count on it to work, only applies to a single roll and is a random bonus.

Or they can be nearby with an Aura

Pally does help but even with the aura, getting another +4 is huge for your chances especially with built-in rerolls in class.

Or they can cast Heroism before the fight.

Which is, again, worse for these purposes than Calm Emotions. And still takes Concentration.

Plenty of ways to help against a Frightened ally.

Sure, but most of those take a huge investment from allies (action + concentration) and the ones that don't are even more specific. Bardic Inspiration is about the only exception but it's sadly very unreliable if you already have a hard time making the save.

How do you measure that?

Do you look at how much HP and Wis saves you've succeeded and failed or are you assuming that one comes up more often as a necessity than another. Me, as a frontliner, is far scarier when I have extra beef than when I can resist weird effects because most creatures hit you with attacks.

The #1 reason you are out of commission (which can be worse than dying) is not gonna be lacking beef. You have a fairly large amount of HP already. It's much more likely that an effect that bypasses HP, such as a save vs. domination, ends you since you have no answers to it. If party members begin failing saves vs. disabling effects, the downwards spiral in the encounter quickly gets amplified as the creatures have action superiority over the remaining characters who either can try to use their actions to wake up their allies (thus losing their action and letting enemy take free offensive action).

It doesn't matter how much HP you have if you can't do anything.

That's why it isn't +1 Con, its +1 to con checks, saves, and +20 HP each time. Its better to get that beefiness early because alot of enemies at lower levels can do enough damage to take you out within 2 rounds if you have low HP but at upper levels, you have more leeway.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I didn't force the DM to target me with a poor save just like the Wizard didn't force the DM to hit them with Constitution Paralysis and knock them out of the fight either. But somebody should help them out if that happens, because of teamwork.

You don't force DM but you force your teammates to spend their sparse resources on keeping you active against a very common save type, or accept that you are going to be dead weight. This isn't about DM vs. players, this is about intra-party cohesion and maximising the chance of coming out alive/minimising the chance of TPK.

Somewhat imprecise search reveals 133/370 creatures of CR 10+ with Wis-save targeting ability (not counting spellcasting or spell-likes) and 63/551 spells as Wis-save ones. That's over 30% of creatures on this level able to target your Wisdom save: or 1/3rd of things you fight attacking your mind. Are you really okay with simply failing all those saves when all it would cost you is +1 Con-save and 10-20 HP to have a very reasonable chance of making them especially combined with Indomitable?

I don't know...I don't feel grumpy at all healing debuffed team members because I know that they do well when they're capable of taking actions. So I don't feel like anybody I heal is a burden, its just an inconvenience.

If you could come up with a way to convince me that every encounter ends up with the fighter debilitated by a Wisdom save, then maybe I'd change my mind. But as far as I can see, fighter's Wis weakness doesn't get any more countered than a Wizard's Charisma weakness or a Bard's Constitution weakness.

Obviously Bards (and all casters) take Con proficiency for Concentration so they have it for all other purposes (and most Constitution saves involve poison, which you can immunitize your party towards with Heroes' Feast, or max HP reduction which takes a lot to really get going). As for Cha, only 15/370 CR 10+ creatures show traces of Charisma-based save or X so you're facing those 4% of the time as opposed to ~36% of the time for Wis saves. The difference is obvious. Wis-saves are just way, way more expensive.

[Sneak Dog]

As do 99.999% of all caster vs martial "debates" on these forums. They always assume that the caster is built exactly for that one situation and can effortlessly rebuild for any threat on the fly, while the martial is hobbled under silly assumptions.

In real play, I've not run into these issues at all.

Long time ago, we got to a jumping 'puzzle' room with spikes. Not much of a puzzle in a TTRPG, but hey.

The fighter could make a skill check to jump the puzzle.
The wizard was considering between making a skill check to jump the puzzle, and spending a teleportation spell they had prepared.
The cleric was all for just jumping the puzzle and healing the party back up on the other side.
The druid loved being a bird, but someone mentioned jumping the puzzle meant potentially less resources spent.
The warlock was trying to get creative with illusions to cover the spikes and luring foes into it. Then jumping the puzzle afterwards.

Molding earth as cantrip was already out of the question.

The fighter has barely any tools at all from their class to deal with situations. Every spellcaster can have something prepared, though sometimes you're like the cleric who is out of luck in this situation. Other times you can combine magic and mundane tools to do really cool things like the warlock was trying to. In the end we decided to just jump the puzzle and save our resources.

[MoiMagnus]

Again, a "per encounter" argument is only good against low encounter days. If you only have to worry about one encounter, then you can burn through resources and not care. If you have multiple encounters stretched out through the day, you probably can't afford to use more than 1 spell per encounter. So, the guy who doesn't have to worry about spells, has more hit points, and a higher normal AC is just able to keep going longer. That's not even something that I would think would be up for debate at this point.

I think that in a thread where peoples ask for how to nerf Caster, it is fair to assume that there is a low number of encounters per long rest, and that it is a non-negotiable part of the gameplay (and that's why they're asking for other solutions).

+ Either because the PCs have a high level of control on the pacing to slow down the number of encounter per day,
+ or because the PCs are coward enough so that they'd rather lose a quest by retreating and running away from problems than stretching their number of encounter per day,
+ or that the table generally think that playing battles that are easy enough for casters to not need to spend more than one spell slot is boring and not worth their IRL time,
+ or probably many other reasons (but those are the ones I've actually seen in play)

[KorvinStarmast]

Low-magic balance: Casters do not automatically get spells of 6th level and above. Like any of them, ever. When they level up they can pick new spells of 1-5, or new cantrips, and they can use their high level slots to upcast their known spells, but any 6th+ spells need to be specifically targeted and quested for, one at a time.

Nice old school hack to the game, I like it.

Tier 4 isn't really supposed to be balanced.

9th level spells warp more than reality.

For the OP:

1. I have one word: feeblemind. 8th level spell. I am not going to suggest spamming it, but toss it in there now and again.

2. For the OP, I have Two Words: Legendary Saves

2a. For the OP, I have Two Other Words: Ticking Clock.
"If you don't get to the {place with the thing} before {this much time has elapsed} the nefarious evil one will complete their ritual and all of your base will belong to us" or variations on that theme.

3. For the OP I have Three Words: Monk(NPC) Stun Lock

In one of the books (might be the adventure book for Waterdeep?) there's an NPC that's like a level 17 monk.
What do high level monks do? Lock down spell casters with stun.

You seem to have a problem dealing with casters: there are some points to ponder for you.

[Xervous]

Long time ago, we got to a jumping 'puzzle' room with spikes. Not much of a puzzle in a TTRPG, but hey.

The fighter could make a skill check to jump the puzzle.
The wizard was considering between making a skill check to jump the puzzle, and spending a teleportation spell they had prepared.
The cleric was all for just jumping the puzzle and healing the party back up on the other side.
The druid loved being a bird, but someone mentioned jumping the puzzle meant potentially less resources spent.
The warlock was trying to get creative with illusions to cover the spikes and luring foes into it. Then jumping the puzzle afterwards.

Molding earth as cantrip was already out of the question.

The fighter has barely any tools at all from their class to deal with situations. Every spellcaster can have something prepared, though sometimes you're like the cleric who is out of luck in this situation. Other times you can combine magic and mundane tools to do really cool things like the warlock was trying to. In the end we decided to just jump the puzzle and save our resources.

What tier was the party in this example and what tier would you classify this sort of challenge as?

[OldTrees1]

What tier was the party in this example and what tier would you classify this sort of challenge as?

I would rate the challenge as Tier 1-2 depending on context.
If the teleportation spell was Misty Step, then it sounds like a Tier 1 party.
White Plume Mountain is level 8 and has something similar with enough complicating hazards to make it a low Tier 2 challenge.

[Eldariel]

1. I have one word: feeblemind. 8th level spell. I am not going to suggest spamming it, but toss it in there now and again.

This is decent for Sorcerers, Warlocks, Clerics and Druids but for Wizards specifically, this is an Int-save to which they're like to have ~+10-+11 at least by this point so this is one of the last spells I'd use against them. Ironically Feeblemind got completely shifted from being an anti-Wizard spell into being an anti-everything-but-Wizard-and-Artificer.

3. For the OP I have Three Words: Monk(NPC) Stun Lock

In one of the books (might be the adventure book for Waterdeep?) there's an NPC that's like a level 17 monk.
What do high level monks do? Lock down spell casters with stun.

Though it's worth noting that all casters are inclined to get Con-save proficiency for Concentration anyways so Constitution is probably the second worst save to target after their casting stat, worst against casters in general since the one thing they all do in common is need Concentration saves. If anything, the one save you should be targeting is Strength: that's generally a categorically weak for casters except Clerics (and even they lack proficiency so it's only +3). Something like Earthen Grasp or Watery Sphere has potential to lock down casters pretty hard.

As for Monks, if you wanna use them, make sure it's like Shadow Monk so they can teleport since otherwise they're really vulnerable at least as primary enemies due to lacking means to escape Wall of Force. They can be really annoying targets if you can't lock them down though.