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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Malconvoker Warlock PEACH

    Inspired by a line in my short vs long rest swap variant (link in my sig), I decided to try my hand at this.

    The Malconvoker
    One day, you stumbled across a thin folio bound in black scales and written in Celestial, the Vital Pact. After an introduction involving a treatise on the limited resources among the forces of Good and entreating unknown parties for aid, it posited that Evil must be made to fight itself. This set you on the path of summoning Evil creatures and bending or tricking them into fighting against their own kin, all in the name of a greater good and at what you presume to be the behest of some unknown, powerful force for Good.

    Expanded Spell List:
    Spell Level Spells
    1st Bane, Sanctuary
    2nd Find Steed (Fiend only), Spiritual Weapon (always looks Fiendish)
    3rd Sending, Spirit Guardians (Fiendish only)
    4th Find Greater Stead (Fiend only), Confusion
    5th Planar Binding, Dispel Evil and Good
    6th Planar Ally, Summon Fiend
    9th Gate
    (Note: Both Summon Fiend and Gate are part of TCE's variant spell lists regardless of their appearance here, which should minimize the impact of adding them to this list)

    Level 1: Deceitful Bargaining: You know Celestial and Infernal, and have proficiency in the Deception skill. You also know the true name of a single Fiend (DM's discretion). Finally, as all Malconvokers must be cautious, you know Protection from Evil and Good as a bonus spell known that does not count against your Warlock known spells, and at 5th level will also learn Magic Circle as a bonus spell known that does not count against your Warlock known spells.

    Level 6: Deceptive Summons: When summoning a Fiend with a spell that has a limited duration, you may make a Charisma (Deception) check contested against a Wisdom (Insight) check by the Fiend (if there is more than one, only one makes the roll, DM's discretion if they have different bonuses). If you succeed, you can double the duration of the summon. If you fail, the Fiend is uncontrolled and independent of your concentration, but it will vanish when the original spell duration expires or it is banished or dispelled. Either way, add a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum +1) to all attack rolls from your summoned Fiends, and all Fiends summoned appear with temporary hit points equal to your Warlock level. You may use this a number of times equal to your Proficiency bonus, and regain all expended uses after a long rest.

    Level 10: Fiendish Legion: If using Deceptive Summons, you may choose to take disadvantage on the Charisma (Deception) roll in order to summon one additional Fiend appropriate to the spell and your selection of summoned creature(s) (note that if the summon explicitly does not allow multiple creatures, such as Find Steed / Find Greater Steed, this cannot be used with that spell). If you attempt to use this more than once before finishing a long rest, you grant advantage to the opposed Wisdom (Insight) check (or if there are multiple Fiends with different bonuses the DM may choose to make one roll each from two of them), and this cannot be used if you are exhausted.

    Level 14: Safe Summoning: As a reaction (typically in response to an undesired action from the Fiend or otherwise discovering they have broken out of your control), you can expend a Pact Magic spell slot or take a level of exhaustion to dismiss any Fiend you personally summoned, regardless of whether it is under your control or not and without requiring any checks or saving throws, so long as you can see it. In addition, when using a spell that involves bargaining with a Fiend or where you benefit from attempting to convince them that your goals are similar, you can impose on the Fiend(s) summoned disadvantage on opposed checks and saving throws related to the spell and any interactions with you, so long as they are under your control; this effect ends early if you lose control for any reason, once you choose to use this you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest, and Safe Summoning cannot affect the Wisdom (Insight) checks from Deceptive Summons or Fiendish Legion (which may still be used while applying this, they just don't take disadvantage on the Deceptive Summons or Fiendish Legion Wisdom (Insight) check due to Safe Summoning, and if you lose control due to those checks this ability will be wasted). Finally, you gain Expertise in the Deception skill against Fiends only (if you gain Expertise elsewhere or already have it, this bonus will not stack)

    Note on mentioning multiple Fiends with different bonuses: I imagine that sometimes, a group of Fiends may have a leader with a lower Wisdom (Insight) bonus than an underling, albeit in rare circumstances even Fiendish leaders may listen to an underling they know is more insightful than themselves; for such roleplay circumstances DM discretion is allowed regarding whose bonus to use for Deceptive Summons and Fiendish Legion (including the option to have two different Fiends make simultaneous checks for their group if Fiendish Legion is being overused).

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Avigor; 2021-02-28 at 12:54 AM. Reason: applied feedback and added some extra clarification; also decided to move Expertise to Safe Summoning

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Malconvoker Warlock PEACH

    Off the bat, why not include the summoning spells Summon Fiend, Summon Lesser Demons and Summon Greater Demons as part of the spell list?

    As to the other:

    Level 1: Deceptive Training
    The spell and language bonuses seem find. Only thing is what mechanical effect does knowing a demon's true name bring? I get it for flavor reasons but this from a mechanics stand point is a big question mark.

    Level 6: Deceptive Summons

    The whole failure by levels seems a bit cumbersome. I would take to a simplistic approach of either succeed and get reward or fail and lose control of the demon. On the bonuses I would decided which of the two as gaining a spell time extension with bonus to attack and HP is a bit much. Make it one of the two. Also the bonuses are a bit weak. A comparable example is the Hexblade's Accursed Specter feature. It gets HP equal to half Warlock level and attack bonus based on Charisma Modifier.

    However you do this ability I would use Accursed Specter at least as a guide. Also decision is needed to be how this ability is re-usable. Short or Long rest? Certain uses based on CHA or Proficiency Modifier? These are the current design aspects that all Warlock patron features are designed as.

    Level 10: Fiendish Legion
    So for spells that allow multiple summonings like Summon Lesser Demon how does this ability apply to them? Meaning if I cast the spell and get 8 demons of challenge rating 1/4 or lower do I get 16 instead?

    I would personally make this feature the Attack and HP bonus of your level 6 class feature with some other advantages considering it is at level 10. If however you are adamant about getting double demons then a more simplistic option might be to just allow the casting of Summon Greater Demon without use of spell slots or components and you get two demon choices instead of one as per the spell. Limit the use to just once per long rest.

    Level 14 Ability:
    Again for simplicity I would combine the two though as well make the abilities simpler. For spells that require negotiation and if only with a demon/devil, make it to where the player gains advantage on any needed checks that require a Persuasion or Deception. Intimidation is debatable to add as it doesn't seem to be in line with what a Malenconvoker does. You can also make it to where if there is a cost associated with summoning the creature a skill check could be made to negate the cost associated.

    Final Thoughts:
    In all converting the 3.5 prestige class to a Warlock I think was the right way to go for this. There are some design aspects to consider but you seem to be going in a good direction.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: Malconvoker Warlock PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by GentlemanVoodoo View Post
    Off the bat, why not include the summoning spells Summon Fiend, Summon Lesser Demons and Summon Greater Demons as part of the spell list?
    The Demon spells + Infernal Calling are already on the native spell list, albeit Summon Fiend (and Gate) is technically on the TCE variant list so yeah I'll add them as a redundancy. Also my table was missing a /tr bracket so the intended 6th level addition of Planar Ally was missing, now it's fixed so all are visible.

    As to the other:

    Level 1: Deceptive Training
    The spell and language bonuses seem find. Only thing is what mechanical effect does knowing a demon's true name bring? I get it for flavor reasons but this from a mechanics stand point is a big question mark.
    A couple of the summoning spells (Summon Greater Demon, Infernal Calling) allows you to impose disadvantage on the Demon's save or gain advantage on your Charisma check vs the Devil respectively if you utter their true name. For some reason, Planar Binding doesn't seem to mention true names even though it feels like it should... Also I felt the need to add full Deception proficiency (albeit expertise is still Fiend-only) as it felt weird to not specify that any Malconvoker should be at least minimally proficient in general.

    Level 6: Deceptive Summons
    The whole failure by levels seems a bit cumbersome. I would take to a simplistic approach of either succeed and get reward or fail and lose control of the demon. On the bonuses I would decided which of the two as gaining a spell time extension with bonus to attack and HP is a bit much. Make it one of the two. Also the bonuses are a bit weak. A comparable example is the Hexblade's Accursed Specter feature. It gets HP equal to half Warlock level and attack bonus based on Charisma Modifier.

    However you do this ability I would use Accursed Specter at least as a guide. Also decision is needed to be how this ability is re-usable. Short or Long rest? Certain uses based on CHA or Proficiency Modifier? These are the current design aspects that all Warlock patron features are designed as.
    True, the "failure by 5 or more" was a carryover from 3.5. Done, albeit instead of forcing a choice I decided that since this is a boost to all summons including on multi-summon spells, I'd up the ante on the danger by having the bonuses apply even if you fail the check.

    Level 10: Fiendish Legion
    So for spells that allow multiple summonings like Summon Lesser Demon how does this ability apply to them? Meaning if I cast the spell and get 8 demons of challenge rating 1/4 or lower do I get 16 instead?

    I would personally make this feature the Attack and HP bonus of your level 6 class feature with some other advantages considering it is at level 10. If however you are adamant about getting double demons then a more simplistic option might be to just allow the casting of Summon Greater Demon without use of spell slots or components and you get two demon choices instead of one as per the spell. Limit the use to just once per long rest.
    D'oh! For some reason my brain lost the +1 wording from the 3.5 source in translation or something. Fixed. Also decided to apply a soft-limit focusing on the danger instead of a hard limit on this one.

    Level 14 Ability:
    Again for simplicity I would combine the two though as well make the abilities simpler. For spells that require negotiation and if only with a demon/devil, make it to where the player gains advantage on any needed checks that require a Persuasion or Deception. Intimidation is debatable to add as it doesn't seem to be in line with what a Malenconvoker does. You can also make it to where if there is a cost associated with summoning the creature a skill check could be made to negate the cost associated.
    Smart, done, and tweaked the effect a bit in a way that could make for dangerous interactions (exhaustion before a Deceptive Summons, anyone? I also added a line to FL to prevent abuse of disadv not stacking if you're already exhausted because of this; also removed the overly-convoluted option of using effects like a Dispel Evil and Good touch as that spell is a self-target with concentration and most summons require concentration). Also moved the 2nd ability name to the first ability cause the Deceptive Training name felt dumb IMO (probably mostly because it wasn't from the original source), while Deceitful Bargaining feels better (and is from the original source, albeit as a higher-level ability).

    Final Thoughts:
    In all converting the 3.5 prestige class to a Warlock I think was the right way to go for this. There are some design aspects to consider but you seem to be going in a good direction.
    Hoping this is better!

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