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Thread: Iaido Class?

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    PirateWench

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    Default Iaido Class?



    I've been trying to come up with a Fighter archetype for playing a non-magical quickdraw swordsman, but I can't come up with a good Iaido mechanic. One of my ideas was to add the margin of success on Initiative to their damage for the rest of the fight if they beat all their opponents, but with bad rolls or high dex enemies the fighter could go sessions without that triggering, and it doesn't FEEL like iaido.

    Anyone have any ideas that don't involve magic?
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    I have no experience with real Iaido. However, I'm a big fan of Iaijutsu in fiction. And the best Iaidoko are not those that are speedy, but rather those that KNOW when to draw.

    A mechanic in the Ghost of Tsushima games involves Iaido. You call out your opponents then you face off with your sword sheathed. You have to noticed exactly when to draw and if you do, you instantly kill your foe. If you mistime it, you take huge damage.

    A similar mechanic might apply.

    As long as you win initiative against your foe you can attempt to perform an Iaijutsu Strike.
    You make your Insight check against their Deception check. If you win you can do extra damage, say 1d6/2 levels, or automatically crit, or something like that.
    If you fail then your armour class drops by 5 until the start of your next turn.
    Last edited by Lvl45DM!; 2021-02-21 at 05:12 AM.
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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    I think you just hit the nail on the head right there I love that line about WHEN to draw, that's an excellent point. I've actually played GOT! It's what inspired this idea. How about, winning the check causes the attack to auto-crit, failing the check gives the enemy an attack if they spend their reaction? I'm concerned about that latter part being overpowered in some way though.
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    Most martial classes in 5e rely on multiple weak attacks to deal damage. Only the Rogue can heap massive damage on a single attack.

    If a homebrew Fighter archetype had the ability to grant himself advantage on attack rolls, he could multiclass into Rogue and take advantage of this. "Good timing" of the draw would be represented by circumstantial advantages and rewarded with Sneak Attack damage.

    The Assassin Rogue is especially fitting because it guarantees a critical hit on surprised enemies.
    Last edited by GalacticAxekick; 2021-02-21 at 06:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    Oooooh that's a good idea! I didn't think of multiclassing for this. Maybe a feature that allows the fighter to basically roll stealth when her sword is sheathed, not actually hiding herself but allowing her to spend her bonus action on drawing and then make surprise attacks if she rolled well enough?
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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    So, Iaido focuses on awareness. All the sword skills are just the frosting on the cake. It's about being able to respond to a sudden attack. With that in mind, I think you might want to focus on making it a reaction-based subclass. Something catered towards the reluctant warrior archetype. Maybe rework the Battlemaster or even the Bard to fit. Whatever you do, I think it's a really cool idea. Please post it once you work it up!


    (Edit: maybe find a way to work perception into it and have wisdom stack onto the to-hit modifier)
    Last edited by SandyAndy; 2021-02-22 at 12:58 AM. Reason: Another idea and didn't want to double post

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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    Because Stealth is used to hide yourself, while Sleight of Hand is used to hide your actions and the objects that you are carrying, I think Sleight of Hand is more appropriate skill for an Iado practitioner. Besides, encouraging the Iado practitioner to gain proficiency in Stealth leads to oddly dishonorable samurai leaping out from behind bushes instead of dueling their enemies face to face.

    Otherwise yeah, that's a start!

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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    No experience with 5e here, but the way iaido it was done back in Ye Olde 3rd Edition Dayes was a combination of a skill called Iaijutsu Focus and a prestige class called Iaijutsu Master. Both of them derived from the 3.0 book Oriental Adventures.

    The skill basically entitled you - on the first weapon draw of a combat, which really hobbled/balanced the use of the ability - to make an Iaijutsu Focus skill check. The check result then determined how many bonus d6 dice were added to your damage for that strike, assuming that you hit. The Prestige Class basically then added stuff that should have enhanced the use of that skill, doing things like adding your CHA bonus to initiative, and at the end of the level progression, basically giving the Iaijutsu Master a free surprise round.

    Unfortunately, at least in 3rd ed, it didn't turn out to be terribly powerful, mainly because 3.5 options overshadowed it - like Pounce, which allows you to close with an enemy and still deliver a full attack, things like that. Additionally, the bonus damage wasn't bad, but it still suffered from the old Rogue Sneak Attack problem of being very conditional on when it could activate and the damage being nowhere near what a mage or cleric of comparable level could put out. And Iaijutsu Master sweated you for 10 levels for all of its toys, which was generally seen as too high an opportunity cost to really be workable. Indeed the most optimised builds using Iaijutsu Master completely subvert the prestige class since they tend to be focused around thrower characters ... because the prestige class allows most of its abilities to function on 'the first attack' and giving the Iaijutsu Master Weapon Finesse with a katana ... resulting in builds where you're hurling dozens of katanas at people.

    Either way, the main issue with Iaijutsu is the fact it's highly conditional to activate in 3rd ed and that you can do superior damage with other melee or magic builds. Maybe something to think about when creating something for 5e, I don't know. Just a suggestion to go and see how 3rd ed did it understanding that it's not a worldbeater in game terms.

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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    You could make it go the other way too, rather than being the first shot, Iaido grants the fighter a reaction attack the first time they are attacked in combat. If they hit its an auto-crit.
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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl45DM! View Post
    You could make it go the other way too, rather than being the first shot, Iaido grants the fighter a reaction attack the first time they are attacked in combat. If they hit its an auto-crit.
    Yeah, this is what I was thinking. Iaido is less about being a really powerful warrior and more about being a really alert warrior. I think maybe adding wisdom or perception to the "to-hit" modifier and auto-crit would be a perfect way to represent it.

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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by SandyAndy View Post
    So, Iaido focuses on awareness. All the sword skills are just the frosting on the cake. It's about being able to respond to a sudden attack. With that in mind, I think you might want to focus on making it a reaction-based subclass. Something catered towards the reluctant warrior archetype. Maybe rework the Battlemaster or even the Bard to fit. Whatever you do, I think it's a really cool idea. Please post it once you work it up!


    (Edit: maybe find a way to work perception into it and have wisdom stack onto the to-hit modifier)
    I didn't think of it like that! I think I'll make the first archetype feature expertise on Perception rolls, or maybe on initiative rolls?

    Thanks! I'll make sure to post it!

    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    Because Stealth is used to hide yourself, while Sleight of Hand is used to hide your actions and the objects that you are carrying, I think Sleight of Hand is more appropriate skill for an Iado practitioner. Besides, encouraging the Iado practitioner to gain proficiency in Stealth leads to oddly dishonorable samurai leaping out from behind bushes instead of dueling their enemies face to face.

    Otherwise yeah, that's a start!
    Maybe I'll add the ability to roll stealth with Sleight of Hand? That's a good idea, thanks! Yeah I agree on stealth being inappropriate for an honorable samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    /Snip!/
    Maybe those mechanics might work in some form if they work every time you draw your sword? It's a bonus action to sheathe or draw right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl45DM! View Post
    You could make it go the other way too, rather than being the first shot, Iaido grants the fighter a reaction attack the first time they are attacked in combat. If they hit its an auto-crit.
    That's a good idea, and maybe as the fighter levels up the number of times they can do that increases? That really reminds me of Ghost of Tsushima!

    Quote Originally Posted by SandyAndy View Post
    Yeah, this is what I was thinking. Iaido is less about being a really powerful warrior and more about being a really alert warrior. I think maybe adding wisdom or perception to the "to-hit" modifier and auto-crit would be a perfect way to represent it.
    I have a feeling this archetype will make the enemy of sneak attackers
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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    Sorry to bump a dead thread but I THINK I have an idea. How about this.

    Level 3: Expertise on Perception, add Wisdom modifier to katana damage.

    Level 7: May draw sword as a bonus action, first attack after drawing sword crits on 19-20. Add Wisdom modifier damage to this attack if it crits. If it kills the target, the next attack benefits from the same bonuses.

    Level 10: May reflexively sheath sword at the end of a round. May roll initiative with Wisdom instead of Dexterity.

    Level 15: May attack again after killing an enemy with a critical hit, up to Wisdom modifier times per long rest.
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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    If the class is about awareness, it sounds like it should be using the insight skill.

    I could see something like:

    At third level, if you have proficiency in insight your proficiency bonus is doubled when you use this skill.

    You whenever you roll initiative or attack with advantage you may instead make an insight check and use that result instead.

    At seventh level, the on your first turn after rolling initiative, if you take the attack action you may take the dodge action as a bonus action.

    At tenth level you may use your wisdom modifier instead of any other stat modifier when making a save, as long as you are conscious.

    At 15th level your first hit against each enemy in your first round of combat is a critical hit.

    That said, I am picking up the flavour from what others have said, so I could be wildly out.
    Last edited by MrStabby; 2021-03-17 at 04:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    Here’s a combo based fighter, pls have a oook at the 1 handed weapon combos. The Heavy Finisher is based on iajutsu multislash type attacks.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g_M...w?usp=drivesdk

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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    I like the idea of charging up an attack in this case. First, you obviously need a feature that lets you draw your weapon as a free action. Then, what if every time an enemy misses you when you are using the Dodge action, the next attack you make receives some kind of stacking bonus? The idea of dancing around your opponent as they swing wildly, until at last you've fully comprehended their style of fighting, and then drawing and ending with a single highly charged attack is a really cool image. I think building the class around different ways of enhancing that one single attack as well as an equal amount of ways for you to avoid enemy attacks would make for a pretty compelling Iaijutsu fighter.
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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    Lots of ideas for initiative bonuses here. You could consider, "When you can see your opponent at the start of combat, add Wisdom to your initiative rolls," but it might need something more. Maybe that'd be part of a level 3 feature that could be built upon? (This does raise the question of fights where you can see some opponents but not others, but I just wouldn't worry about that.)

    As for the Iajutsu strike, it seems most natural to me to just give a huge bonus if you're hitting someone before their first turn in combat. And maybe a chance to parry if they're hitting you before your first turn? That way, you'd benefit from your quickdraw even if you lost initiative.

    In the past, I've thought about doing Iado as a feat, fighting style, or Battlemaster maneuver. When it was a maneuver, I said, "If you hit a foe with a melee weapon attack before their first turn, roll (but don't expend) all of your remaining superiority dice and add that much damage." Honestly, that kind of undercuts the I-can-go-all-day aspect of the fighter, though.

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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    Iaido is kind of a really awful martial art as a whole - it's almost sole focus is on drawing the sword, which is something that will only matter in a vanishingly small number of fights you are likely (historically or in game) to get into. There's a reason why it is the only martial art of its kind, while others usually have a small element of drawing quickly in them (Fiore, possibly I.33, some rapier treatises), if that.

    That means you will have to bend over backwards to create a class centered around it, and it will probably be very clunky, or not very... iaido-like. Something like this, a specific skill inside a martial art, is more suited to a feat.

    As for what that feat should be, quick draws are useful in only a handful of areas.

    First area is weapon transitions on the battlefield, from yari or arquebus to a sword.

    Second area is defending against ambushes that have for whatever reason (stupidity, legal restrictions, terrain) decided not to use guns or bows to ambush you. So, not a lot of military ambushes, but possibly some self defense urban ones.

    Third area people bring up, one that is really, really dumb, is assassination - in this case, the problem isn't attacking soeone, it's getting away with it, and for that, melee assassinations are kinda useless, so you will likely not use this and/or not need to defend against it. Japan had few notably fanaticised groups willing to do it, and that is all I can say under forum rules.

    Focusing on first and second areas of use, then. Iaido doesn't really gain you initiative in the fencing sense, because it is almost invariably a reaction to something. It is both offensive and defensive in nature, and it only has an effect shortly after you draw your sword, after that, it's just a normal sword fight. It has absolutely nothing to do with any mysticism or wisdom, it's just a way to kill people more good.

    With that in mind:

    Iaijutsu training

    Prerequisites: initiative bonus of at least +1

    If you start a round with your sword drawn and in a scabbard and draw it, you can add your initiative bonus to your AC, attack and damage for one round.




    Feel free to tweak it to work better with particular DnD version action economy (reaction, free or swift action to draw etc), and to double or triple the bonus to tweak its power. It only lasts for one round, after all.
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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    If you're really wanting to boil it down:

    Iaido Fighting Style
    You gain a +2 to Initiative.
    When you draw your weapon as part of an attack, you can add your proficiency bonus to the damage of that attack.

    Here we have a bump to initiative (every combat) and a static bonus that scales up to 3x dueling, however the draw restriction means you can get that bonus on one attack only every other turn due to action economy, 2 attacks if you have dual wielder feat, but if you're doing that, the 2weapon fighting fighting style would be prioritized...

    If I made it a feat

    Iaido
    Prerequisite: Dexterity 13
    You gain a +2 bonus to initiative rolls.
    When you draw a one handed weapon as part of a reaction, you may add your proficiency bonus to your damage with it. On a hit, you can sacrifice subsequent attacks you can make this turn to deal an additional 1d12 damage of the weapon's type per attack.

    This, I think, is a solid draw for fighters, but also for multiclass rogues with extra attacks...

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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    Iaido feat
    Only works while wielding Katanas, LongSwords, Scimitars, and ShortSwords (great swords are to heavy, rapiers to thin of a blade, and daggers have to short of a blade to use this)
    • Requirs 14 Dexterity
    • You draw and sheath your weapon with each attack
    • Iaijutsu — During your Attack Action you may Concentrate and “store” your Attacks, then unleash them as a Bonus Action attack on the same turn, adding the extra damage to a single weapon attack. Also when you “store” each attack you reduce your Bonus Action attack’s Crit range by 2 and add 1d4 slashing damage per attack stored.

    You may store a number of attacks equal to your Dexterity modifier per short or long rest.

    ie A lvl6 fighter with 17Dex and a long sword attacks once and stores his extra attack, his bonus action attack will have a crit range of 18-20 and deal 2d10+3+1d4 slashing damage

    A shadow monk with this could do wonders as well
    Last edited by Ogrillian; 2021-03-21 at 07:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    Thank you all SO MUCH these ideas are great wow. I definitely think I'll make the first class feature the ability to sacrifice attacks to add d12s to the attack. I THINK I'll go with it being something you'll be able to decide to do after the attack hits or misses, that way you don't invest all your attacks for a turn on a wasted hit. And I think I'll let Action Surge attacks be valid for spending, after all without that a level 3 fighter wouldn't be able to use this feature at all.

    The question however is, should I make the other level 3 feature an initiative bonus or a crit range bonus? Also maybe the fighter should be able to reduce their movement for the turn to ten feet to add another dice?
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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    Okay I think I have a working model for it:

    Level 3

    Iaijutsu — During your Attack Action you may Concentrate and “store” your Attacks, then unleash them as a single Bonus Action attack on the same turn or in response to being attacked before your next turn (this also costs your Reaction) adding 1d12 extra damage to this single attack per attack stored.

    Your first attack after drawing your weapon also has a crit range of 19-20.

    Level 7

    You have Expertise in Insight

    You gain advantage on Initiative once per short rest

    Level 10

    You may sheathe your katana after an attack without costing a bonus action

    If you kill a character with an Iaijutsu strike you can apply the same attack roll to another within five feet, up to Dex bonus times.

    Level 15

    Action Surge grants you an additional bonus action as well.

    Level 18

    Sheathing your sword by spending your Reaction lets you reroll damage after a hit.
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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    It is not a bonus action to draw or sheathe a weapon. Basically you get four actions according to the books (action, bonus action, reaction, move) and then they backtrack and give you a single free "interaction with an object" on your turn, as part of an action or move. If you need to draw two weapons, you get one free and need to spend your action doing the second unless you have the dual wielder feat. Basically everyone has quick draw now. The real thing I think Iaido should do is let you draw and attack as a reaction, plus some initiative shenanigans or extra damage.
    Last edited by sengmeng; 2021-04-25 at 10:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Iaido Class?

    One thing that might be good to include is some kind of feature that helps the Fighter make better attacks through the Ready action, perhaps by giving the single readied attack an equivalent power to the fighter's normal multiple attacks on their own turn, so that an Iaido fighter doesn't suffer reduced damage for using their action to Ready an attack rather than taking the Attack action.

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