Simulacrum question/idea

[schreier]

If you had a high level wizard who maintained residences in multiple cities and/or planes, would it make sense for him to leave a simulacrum at each residence to maintain the house? It could notify the wizard when something of note happened, deal with a lot of minor issues, etc ... it could even generate income in a situation where the wizard sold his services I would think?

Other than it being a half strength version, do you see major issues with the plan? For a level 18-20 wizard, a level 9-10 "clone" at the home would be a solid steward.

[redking]

If you had a high level wizard who maintained residences in multiple cities and/or planes, would it make sense for him to leave a simulacrum at each residence to maintain the house? It could notify the wizard when something of note happened, deal with a lot of minor issues, etc ... it could even generate income in a situation where the wizard sold his services I would think?

Other than it being a half strength version, do you see major issues with the plan? For a level 18-20 wizard, a level 9-10 "clone" at the home would be a solid steward.

No - its a solid plan. One of the best uses for simulacrum. Issues with simulacrum arise when they are used as pseudo cohorts that end up annoying the DM. Your fluff simulacrums are fine, not abusive, and a great use of simulacrums. I made a 5-level prestige class for casters specializing in the simulacrum spell. Also includes a slight edit to the simulacrum spell itself, to clear up confusion about what the spell can and cannot do.

[One Step Two]

You can even have them invest in a Permanent Telepathic Bond to relay information to the wizard and eachother for those living on the same plane. To be extra fancy, you could have the wizard invest in an arcane version of the Status spell to monitor the simulacra.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you had a high level wizard who maintained residences in multiple cities and/or planes, would it make sense for him to leave a simulacrum at each residence to maintain the house? It could notify the wizard when something of note happened, deal with a lot of minor issues, etc ... it could even generate income in a situation where the wizard sold his services I would think?

Other than it being a half strength version, do you see major issues with the plan? For a level 18-20 wizard, a level 9-10 "clone" at the home would be a solid steward.

You are talking about the Magic Market guy I guess.
You know, the guy who is running a magic market shop in every town. The shop which looks the same in every town and has set up deadly magical defenses against anyone who tries to steal anything or tries to harm the owner.
And the owner looks the same in every town!
*shhhhhs* he might hear us..^^
Who knows what his evil plans are. Accumulating so much gold with his shops, what is he gonna craft with so much gold? Some say he will take over the world/multiverse/tippyverse one day. Let us all hope that never happens..^^

[KillianHawkeye]

I had an idea for a recurring villain that basically used this same idea. I unfortunately only got the chance to use him (or rather, one of his simulacra) once before the campaign died out.

[icefractal]

Yeah, it's a handy way to keep track of things in several places at once. I'd second the permanent Telepathic Bonds.

The main downside is that there are weaker copies of you out there, easier to spy on or capture. While they don't have all your knowledge, studying one could give an opponent info on your talents, weaknesses, personality, etc. Of course if this wizard is staying in the midst of cities and conducting business there he's presumably not that secretive.

[schreier]

You are talking about the Magic Market guy I guess.
You know, the guy who is running a magic market shop in every town. The shop which looks the same in every town and has set up deadly magical defenses against anyone who tries to steal anything or tries to harm the owner.
And the owner looks the same in every town!
*shhhhhs* he might hear us..^^
Who knows what his evil plans are. Accumulating so much gold with his shops, what is he gonna craft with so much gold? Some say he will take over the world/multiverse/tippyverse one day. Let us all hope that never happens..^^

Love this idea!

As far as the telepathic bond - I was looking at it, and the level 5 version is within the same plane, but there is a level 6 version that is interplanar. (Rary's Interplanar Telepathic Bond in Planar Handbook).

I wonder if the link could cause problems (incoming messages at the wrong time - like mid-spell preparation/item creation ...) I'm guessing it wouldn't matter with a level 20 wizard (they should be able to compartmentalize enough with a 25-30 intelligence).

I was planning on tracking the levels (so actually use the character as he was at level 10) -- Could the simulacrum help with item creation if it had the right feats?

[Gruftzwerg]

Love this idea!

As far as the telepathic bond - I was looking at it, and the level 5 version is within the same plane, but there is a level 6 version that is interplanar. (Rary's Interplanar Telepathic Bond in Planar Handbook).

I wonder if the link could cause problems (incoming messages at the wrong time - like mid-spell preparation/item creation ...) I'm guessing it wouldn't matter with a level 20 wizard (they should be able to compartmentalize enough with a 25-30 intelligence).

I was planning on tracking the levels (so actually use the character as he was at level 10) -- Could the simulacrum help with item creation if it had the right feats?

Imho craftlock is what you are looking for here. Warlock 12 / Chameleon 2 + xxx
The craftlock fakes the spells needed for crafting. This bypasses any material components (even xp) needed for the spell. You only pay the normal costs (xp, gold) for the magic item itself.
Now you can make Ice Assassins (with Scribe Scroll) for 1912.5g and 153xp (much cheaper than a Simulacrum for a regular caster).
And here comes the real deal: Your Ice Assassins can now aid you while crafting. They can Aid Another for your UMD roll (stacking untyped +2 bonus) and change their Floating Feats to provide any metamagic feats you might need. My Orochimaru build abuses this heavily to cast any spell you might think of. It also mentions some crafting XP cheese to avoid most of the XP costs for your Ice Assassin army. (e.g. Thought Bottle or Sacrifices with Knowledge Religion checks aided by your Ice Assassin army).

[schreier]

Thank you all for the advice - definitely going this route ... had a question about the "1/2" level ... so my plan is to just track the build by level, and cut it in half (20 / 10) to figure out the simulacrum's stats. If there is a feat or class ability (item familiar, or even a regular familiar) - how do you handle that? Can a simulacrum have a familiar? Do you/Can you make a new item familiar for them?

[Raishoiken]

Imho craftlock is what you are looking for here. Warlock 12 / Chameleon 2 + xxx
The craftlock fakes the spells needed for crafting. This bypasses any material components (even xp) needed for the spell. You only pay the normal costs (xp, gold) for the magic item itself.
Now you can make Ice Assassins (with Scribe Scroll) for 1912.5g and 153xp (much cheaper than a Simulacrum for a regular caster).
And here comes the real deal: Your Ice Assassins can now aid you while crafting. They can Aid Another for your UMD roll (stacking untyped +2 bonus) and change their Floating Feats to provide any metamagic feats you might need. My Orochimaru build abuses this heavily to cast any spell you might think of. It also mentions some crafting XP cheese to avoid most of the XP costs for your Ice Assassin army. (e.g. Thought Bottle or Sacrifices with Knowledge Religion checks aided by your Ice Assassin army).

what is it in particular that lets you bypass the xp? warlock calls out the fact that you create the item just "as if he had cast the required spell"

[Gruftzwerg]

what is it in particular that lets you bypass the xp? warlock calls out the fact that you create the item just "as if he had cast the required spell"

Note that I said the material components and special xp costs for the spell, not those things listed for the magic item (e.g. a masterwork items for weapons/armor..the regular amount of xp / gold to craft the item stays).

The warlock gets the imbue item ability which lets them for the purpose of crafting, do UMD rolls to fake the spell. When you have faked to cast the spell, you have also faked any components needed for the spell to cast: V,S,M,F. This includes any material components and xp costs for the spell (which you would normally provide to cast the spell for the crafting process).

e.g. you make a Scroll of "Wish". You only pay the regular crafting costs for crafting a 9th lvl spell. You ignore the extra gold and XP costs, since you fake the spell (and its costs) via an UMD roll.
spell lvl x caster lvl x 25 = 17 x 9 x 25 = 3,825g base price = 1,912.5 g crafting cost & 153 xp

Flood the marked with your cheap wish spells. Wish for items to sell or sell cheap wish scrolls to get rich. Or wish directly for magic items and ignore all the extra costs.

Imbue Item is super cheesy and should imho only be used under gentlemen agreement where everybody is knowing what is/will happening and agrees with that kind of optimization/power lvl. It is RAW and even seems to be RAI since the ERRATA (and IIRC even the FAQ) didn't addressed this. God knows why..
If you thought Wall of Salt was a good way to break WBL, this is just nuts imho...

In the meanwhile have fun with cheap Wishes and Ice Assassins ;)

[smasher0404]

Love this idea!

As far as the telepathic bond - I was looking at it, and the level 5 version is within the same plane, but there is a level 6 version that is interplanar. (Rary's Interplanar Telepathic Bond in Planar Handbook).

I wonder if the link could cause problems (incoming messages at the wrong time - like mid-spell preparation/item creation ...) I'm guessing it wouldn't matter with a level 20 wizard (they should be able to compartmentalize enough with a 25-30 intelligence).

I was planning on tracking the levels (so actually use the character as he was at level 10) -- Could the simulacrum help with item creation if it had the right feats?

The answer is most likely yes (the simulacrum is treated as a creature, and has the necessary feats and spells), but the extent boils down to whether the Simulacrum has experience points to expend for the item creation. In the absolute worst case, you can take the time to make use of the Transferrance spell (from the PHBII Web Enhancement) to ensure that your simulacrums have access to the necessary exp. Then you can have your simulacrum craft the item while you are away. This would fulfil a similar process to the Dedicated Wright (Eberron Campaign Setting), but would cost more exp (160 xp for the Wright vs 1000 xp for the Simulacrum at level 20), less gold (1000 gold for the Simulacrum vs 2100 for the Wright). The Wright also takes more time to make, so a Simulacrum with the right feats may be the better choice from that perspective.

[Anthrowhale]

The high-op version of this is to create an ice assassin of yourself and then an ice assassin of the ice assassin. After the first ice assassin is killed, the remaining one no longer has a valid slay urge making them functional as full-strength clone.

[Gruftzwerg]

The high-op version of this is to create an ice assassin of yourself and then an ice assassin of the ice assassin. After the first ice assassin is killed, the remaining one no longer has a valid slay urge making them functional as full-strength clone.

No need. While the Ice Assassin has the urge to kill you it is under your full control.

The ice assassin is under your absolute command.

You just need to command him to never kill you. He still has the urge, but won't kill you. You could even command him to not have the urge to kill you. It's that simple ;)

[Raishoiken]

Note that I said the material components and special xp costs for the spell, not those things listed for the magic item (e.g. a masterwork items for weapons/armor..the regular amount of xp / gold to craft the item stays).

The warlock gets the imbue item ability which lets them for the purpose of crafting, do UMD rolls to fake the spell. When you have faked to cast the spell, you have also faked any components needed for the spell to cast: V,S,M,F. This includes any material components and xp costs for the spell (which you would normally provide to cast the spell for the crafting process).

e.g. you make a Scroll of "Wish". You only pay the regular crafting costs for crafting a 9th lvl spell. You ignore the extra gold and XP costs, since you fake the spell (and its costs) via an UMD roll.
spell lvl x caster lvl x 25 = 17 x 9 x 25 = 3,825g base price = 1,912.5 g crafting cost & 153 xp

Flood the marked with your cheap wish spells. Wish for items to sell or sell cheap wish scrolls to get rich. Or wish directly for magic items and ignore all the extra costs.

Imbue Item is super cheesy and should imho only be used under gentlemen agreement where everybody is knowing what is/will happening and agrees with that kind of optimization/power lvl. It is RAW and even seems to be RAI since the ERRATA (and IIRC even the FAQ) didn't addressed this. God knows why..
If you thought Wall of Salt was a good way to break WBL, this is just nuts imho...

In the meanwhile have fun with cheap Wishes and Ice Assassins ;)

The problem with this is that as far as in aware you dont actually cast the spells when you're making a magic item, the slot/spell is simply expended "as if they had been cast". Warlock doesn't let you avoid those costs, it just lets you emulate spell knowledge using UMD just like you otherwise would when trying to activate a magic item

If im actually missing something someone help me out here

[Gruftzwerg]

The problem with this is that as far as in aware you dont actually cast the spells when you're making a magic item, the slot/spell is simply expended "as if they had been cast". Warlock doesn't let you avoid those costs, it just lets you emulate spell knowledge using UMD just like you otherwise would when trying to activate a magic item

If im actually missing something someone help me out here

He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of a required spell he doesn't know or can't cast.

If the check succeeds, the warlock can create the item as if he had cast the required spell.

The ability says "as if he had cast the spell" not "know the spell". Casting involves all material components and additional xp costs.

If the ability can fake the slot/spell being expended "as if they had been cast", then it should also be able to fake the material components being expended "as if they had been cast".
Unless you argue that the ability is totally dysfunctional by RAW (where I could see arguments for and against it), it should work as I described it.

[Anthrowhale]

You just need to command him to never kill you.

Absolute command is a benefit with caveat:

These benefits persist as long as you and the ice assassin remain within a mile of each other.

I'm assuming a DM will happily work on ways that Ice Assassins of you scheme to kill you if you ever separate by more than a mile from them.

[Raishoiken]

The ability says "as if he had cast the spell" not "know the spell". Casting involves all material components and additional xp costs.

If the ability can fake the slot/spell being expended "as if they had been cast", then it should also be able to fake the material components being expended "as if they had been cast".
Unless you argue that the ability is totally dysfunctional by RAW (where I could see arguments for and against it), it should work as I described it.

It's the fact that crafting magic items says the same thing

The act of working on the ring triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the ring’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

You dont cast spells when creating magic items warlock or not; warlock merely lets you make a skill check if you dont have the spell known

A warlock of 12th level or higher can use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he does not know the spells required to make an item (although he must know the appropriate item creation feat). He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of a required spell he doesn't know or can't cast.
cast.
If the check succeeds, the warlock can create the item as if he had cast the required spell. If it fails, he cannot complete the item. He does not expend the XP or gp costs for making the item; his progress is simply arrested. He cannot retry this Use Magic Device check for that spell until he gains a new level.

Warlocks create items in the normal way, both warlock and magic item section say "as if cast" in the same way. The only thing imbue item lets you ignore is knowing the spell when creating the item. You still spend the xp while crafting the same way unless you can point to where it explicitly says you ignore it

[Gruftzwerg]

Absolute command is a benefit with caveat:

I'm assuming a DM will happily work on ways that Ice Assassins of you scheme to kill you if you ever separate by more than a mile from them.

I know. But unless your Ice Assassins can Scry and Fry you from over a mile distance, you should be save. As soon as he enters the mile radius, you have full control again.

Finally, there are still other methods of control if you really want to send an Ice Assassin onto far away quests/jobs.

Coincidence is that Orochimaru's ability (in the manga/anime) has the same problem. As soon as his henchmen with Curse Marks leave a certain distance, almost all try to plot his death (or at least would like to be able to). So it is/was very fitting in my build chase^^

[Raishoiken]

I know. But unless your Ice Assassins can Scry and Fry you from over a mile distance, you should be save. As soon as he enters the mile radius, you have full control again.

Finally, there are still other methods of control if you really want to send an Ice Assassin onto far away quests/jobs.

Coincidence is that Orochimaru's ability (in the manga/anime) has the same problem. As soon as his henchmen with Curse Marks leave a certain distance, almost all try to plot his death (or at least would like to be able to). So it is/was very fitting in my build chase^^

You may not even need extra steps. You may not be able to issue new commands to them im not sure if they automatically start ignoring commands that were already issued before? This im not completely sure on yet


As a sidenote, in addition to my post above i made a seperate thread for the imbue item discussion so as to not derail this thread

[Gruftzwerg]

You may not even need extra steps. You may not be able to issue new commands to them im not sure if they automatically start ignoring commands that were already issued before? This im not completely sure on yet

That's what I meant with "or at least would like to be able to". As long as they have commands to follow they should be bound to those:

If the ice assassin travels beyond this range, it continues to function and seek out its nemesis, but you have no direct control over it.

Since it continues to function, its last instructions should also function.
The "no direct control" imho refers to the options lost due the broken "telepathic link/scrying effect"". It doesn't say "you loose control" nor "that it stops following your orders". Imho it just means that you only have direct control within the range, not more not less.

[icefractal]

I don't think control means you can remove their desire to kill you, any more than you could give someone skill ranks by commanding them to become great at climbing, or make them immune to mind-affecting by telling them to fully resist any other mental influence. So you'd be in a Starscream / evil genie situation where you need to word your orders carefully. Which yeah, is pretty fitting for Orochimaru.

The other option is to use something loyal, like Simulacra, as the command staff of your org, and put unreliable staff like Ice Assassins under the direct control of a "minder" who stays with them at all times.

[Jack_Simth]

No need. While the Ice Assassin has the urge to kill you it is under your full control.

You just need to command him to never kill you. He still has the urge, but won't kill you. You could even command him to not have the urge to kill you. It's that simple ;)

Kind of. It doesn't just have a "desire" to kill you. The phrasing is: "its personality is warped and twisted by an all-consuming need to slay the original". Yes, "The ice assassin is under your absolute command" ... but in making one of yourself, you're pitting that against an "all-consuming need". It's not actually much of a stretch for the DM to say something like "the 'all-consuming need' to slay you ate that command, negating it. It's just been biding it's time until you were in a position where it could strike at you effectively."

Much better not to risk it, and spend the resources to direct the slaying urge at your copy, rather than at you. That's still something of a risk, though, if your DM wants to be a little adversarial (which is, quite frankly, part of the DM's job).

[Gruftzwerg]

I don't think control means you can remove their desire to kill you, and more than you could give someone skill ranks by commanding them to become great at climbing, or make them immune to mind-affecting by telling them to fully resist any other mental influence. So you'd be in a Starscream / evil genie situation where you need to word your orders carefully. Which yeah, is pretty fitting for Orochimaru.

The other option is to use something loyal, like Simulacra, as the command staff of your org, and put unreliable staff like Ice Assassins under the direct control of a "minder" who stays with them at all times.

&

Kind of. It doesn't just have a "desire" to kill you. The phrasing is: "its personality is warped and twisted by an all-consuming need to slay the original". Yes, "The ice assassin is under your absolute command" ... but in making one of yourself, you're pitting that against an "all-consuming need". It's not actually much of a stretch for the DM to say something like "the 'all-consuming need' to slay you ate that command, negating it. It's just been biding it's time until you were in a position where it could strike at you effectively."

Much better not to risk it, and spend the resources to direct the slaying urge at your copy, rather than at you. That's still something of a risk, though, if your DM wants to be a little adversarial (which is, quite frankly, part of the DM's job).

I agree, it boils down to to careful wording mind games. Like with carefully wording Contingent spells. Your DM may ignore to bypass em for a while. But that doesn't mean he is unable to plot something. Same here. If you ignore the risk for to long it may become fatal. So, better plan your fake death and resurrection afterwards. Maybe just give them what they want instead of running away all the time? Orochimaru did it too xD

[schreier]

I can definitely see the value of the ice assassin, and from a munchkin/min-max perspective it makes a lot of sense.

I think I prefer the simulacrum with the "puppy-dog" (my thoughts) like desire to please its master.

Does it have a memory / desires? Can you later update it if you gain levels, and let it keep its "old" memories? Let's say a level 18 casts the spell, then when he gets to 20 - can he update the simulacrum to level 10 (from 9)?

I also wonder if the simulacrum could heal itself if it had the property laboratory? Does it need to have the spell to have the proper ritual? I wonder if there is a way to "sync" up different simulacrum / give all of them (maybe even including the original caster) so they can share the memories? The closest I found in 3.5 was the kiira n'vaelahr in the players guide to faerun.

[Anthrowhale]

Does it have a memory / desires?

It's a creature with Int>0 and Cha>0, so yes.

Can you later update it if you gain levels, and let it keep its "old" memories?

Explicitly forbidden by the spell.

A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities.

I also wonder if the simulacrum could heal itself if it had the property laboratory?

I don't see anything specifically forbidding the simulacrum from healing itself, so it seems possible.

I wonder if there is a way to "sync" up different simulacrum / give all of them (maybe even including the original caster) so they can share the memories?

Programmed Amnesia or Mind Rape should allow this.

[InvisibleBison]

Explicitly forbidden by the spell.

The spell only forbids the simulacrum from becoming more powerful as the result of its own actions. It doesn't forbid someone else from doing something that causes the simulacrum to become more powerful. If someone were to develop a spell that updated a simulacrum the way schreier described, I don't see anything stopping it from working.

[schreier]

The spell only forbids the simulacrum from becoming more powerful as the result of its own actions. It doesn't forbid someone else from doing something that causes the simulacrum to become more powerful. If someone were to develop a spell that updated a simulacrum the way schreier described, I don't see anything stopping it from working.

That's what I was thinking - if you just cast simulacrum on the original sculpture, I might rule that the stats are brought up to the current level (9 to 10 in the example), while allowing the memories of the simulacrum to stay. I wonder to what degree they have personalities ... do they appreciate the caster as their "creator," especially if the caster helps them and keeps them in a good position. Do they "enjoy" life? Basically, how AI are they? Robots, or sentient beings with goals, etc...

I also was looking at the status spell. Rary's planar telepathic bond is perfect, but it would be great to have a planar version of status too so you will get notification if they are damaged/killed.

[Anthrowhale]

Do they "enjoy" life? Basically, how AI are they? Robots, or sentient beings with goals, etc...

My understanding is that they are fully real creatures in all ways except for the limitations called out in the spell.

[Gusmo]

Let's take this up a notch. You have your simulacrums, or ice assassins, or whatever. Now bring the mother cyst feat into play. Your steward clones can now also spread necrotic tumors around town while you're away, turning anyone infected into a potential set of eyes, or even a dominated servant if need be.