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2021-02-21, 04:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Energy Substitution rules question
So I was talking with a guy I know in D&D and he complained about the DM of the game he's in not letting his Electricity Substituted Fireball disperse the cloud from an Obscuring Mist spell like a normal Fireball should.
I mean, I suppose it's not entirely without merit because Energy Substitution only changes the energy type of the spell, and high-voltage electricity seems it'd do as good a job of burning the mist away as fire to be honest, but at the same time the examples given in the Obscuring Mist entry are Fireball, Flame Strike, and Wall of Fire - which sounds like the RAI is very much intended it to be about burning it away with fire.
I think the guy's a bit of a rules-lawyer and I don't have the details of their game, but the argument itself seems ambiguous enough to ask here in the forum.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-02-21, 05:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
The DM's ruling is consistent with the expanded text of the feat's 3.0 incarnation in Magic of Faerun.
If a spell has a secondary effect, the altered spell still has that effect. For example, a shout spell can deafen creatures and deals extra damage to crystalline creatures; if fire is substituted for sonic energy in a shout spell, creatures can still be deafened and crystalline creatures still suffer extra damage. Sometimes a spell's minor effects are directly related to the spell's energy, for example, a flaming sphere can set items afire, but a purely sonic or acidic flaming sphere does not.Rhymes with "Protracted."
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2021-02-21, 05:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Yeah I saw that, but knowing my friend he'd probably argue that since it's not worded like that in Complete Arcane his ruling should be right.
I mean it's a fairly clear-cut RAI instance if you ask me, but I'm guessing that the current rules aren't quite as concrete?Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-02-21, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Obscuring mist should still be dispersed. Energy substitution does not remove the explosive quality of fireball and obscuring mist explicitly allows explosive effects to disperse it.
Electrical explosions are a thing. Sonic booms, implosion caused by rapid contriction due to loss of heat, and balls of acid rapidly expanding can all cause a shockwave.
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2021-02-21, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Fireball has no explosive component - RAW there is no shockwave and (almost) no blast pressure.
As for the substitued spell what obscuring mist says is this:
Originally Posted by SRD
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2021-02-21, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
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2021-02-21, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.A fireball, flame strike, or similar spell burns away the fog in the explosive or fiery spell’s area.
We say sunlight burns away fog, but it isn't actually burning it. The only qualities needed to "burn away" the mist is either fiery or explosive.Last edited by Darg; 2021-02-21 at 05:13 PM.
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2021-02-22, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Yes, but Fireball isn't an explosion - maybe some sonic spells would count, but not that.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-02-22, 04:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-22, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
It's right there in the spell text. By definition, an explosion doesn't have to create a forceful pressure wave. Explosion of color, explosion of taste, etc. Obscuring Mist doesn't say anything about explosive force. Only that the effect has to be explosive. Fireball is described as an explosion and therefor energy substitution changes the spell into an explosion of a different energy type. This satisfies the condition of obscuring mist.
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2021-02-23, 05:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Honestly, I find this quote more confusing than helpful. In terms of in-game logic, it seems obvious to me than Shout's propensity to deafen people and hurt crystalline creatures IS "directly related to the spell's energy". It deafens people because it is sonic (duh).
In general, while I can easily imagine an-energy substituted Cone of Cold, it's much harder to visualize a non-sonic Shout. What's a cold Shout and why would it deafen people if a cold Fireball doesn't set them on fire?
Of course, deafening and damaging crystalline creatures is not a minor effect of Shout. It's barely even secondary: it's a main draw of the spell. In terms of game balance, it's unfair to take that away when a player energy-substitutes it.
So, taking the rules quote you provided, I find it clearer to just ignore everything they said about being "directly related to the spell's energy", and just emphasize the distinction they make between "primary/secondary effects" and "minor effects". The former always stays, the latter doesn't apply if it was directly related to the spell's energy.
So, back to OP: is clearing away Fog Cloud a minor effect of Fireball? Pretty clearly, yes. Is it directly linked to it being fire? This could go either way. The argument for "yes" is the fact that every spell described as blowing it away is a fire spell. The argument for "no" is the explosive quality of Fireball.Avatar by Mr_Saturn
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2021-02-23, 05:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Except that virtually no blast pressure means it's not really much of an explosion per se, I guess. It sounds like it's more the actual heat that does the damage.
Which incidentally means it must be pretty damn hot; IRL most of the injuries people get from explosions are from shrapnel I think?Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-02-23, 06:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-23 at 06:14 AM.
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2021-02-23, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Last edited by Khedrac; 2021-02-23 at 08:36 AM.
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2021-02-23, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Not really. The Energy seed doesn't automatically gain "SR - No" simply because you picked Acid for it:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/energy.htm
Nor does the Mastery of Elements Archmage High Arcana specifically grant "SR - No" to spells that were originally "SR - Yes".
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm
It just so happens that PHB Acid spells tend to be "SR - No" - there's nothing about the Acid energy type that guarantees "SR - No".
A better example of a "minor property of the energy type" - whether the spell does full damage to objects or not.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-23 at 08:56 AM.
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2021-02-23, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Right, I meant Obscuring mist. And I'm aware the text about that minor effect is found in Obscuring Mist, not Fireball, but the argument is the same regardless: is that due to Fireball being fire, or due to being Fireball, a 3rd-level-spell exploding in a 20ft area burst for 1d6/CL damage, Reflex half? I'd honestly be comfortable with either ruling. It's really a corner case anyway. Due to the fact that every spell that clears Obscuring Mist is a fire spell, I'd probably lean towards the direction that Electricity Fireball doesn't do that, but I don't feel very strongly about that ruling.
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2021-02-23, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Given "Fiery or explosive" can we agree that all spells modified with the Explosive Spell metamagic feat will scatter it?
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2021-02-23, 09:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
I would actually argue the opposite. If I was analyzing a statute in real life, and the 2020 language of a statute omitted a sentence that had appeared in a mostly-the-same 2005 statute that had expired, I'd say the absence indicates legislative intent to make the old sentence null and void.
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2021-02-23, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-23, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Simple science and seen effects. I agree with the DM.
We see electric discharge in the form of 🌩 lightning inside clouds. They are not destroyed or diminished by internal lightning strikes. So since clouds are fog lightning does get rid of mist.
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2021-02-23, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
I agree with the player. Obscuring Mist says a 'fiery or explosive' spell disperses it. Fireball is 'an explosion of flame'. With energy substitution, the spell is now an 'explosion' of whatever. The DM just made a snap judgement, didn't read through the spells, and doesn't want to change their mind.
Also, yes, the newer feat replaces the old feat.
I'd also say real clouds are both much bigger and much less magical than an Obscuring Mist spell, so they don't make a great comparison.
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2021-02-23, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
The Energy Ball psionic power also has that "explosion of energy" phrasing:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/p...energyBall.htm
but the ability to substitute, is built in rather than requiring a feat.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2021-02-23, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
It sounds like the rules aren't iron-clad enough to make a 100% consistent judgement excluding intentional bad faith interpretations I guess, then?
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2021-02-23, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
An explosion is simply the violent expansion of something. That violent expansion does not actually have to be harmful to be an explosion, nor does it have to create a pressure wave. This means that that the displacement caused by the effect is a valid reason for the fog not to be in the area.
As for lightning in the clouds...that is no where near an explosion. It's the accumulation of enough energy to forceful discharge along a path of least resistance. A example that might be easier to understand would be like a dam breaking. Water spreads out within the confines of the valley and into tributaries until the energy/mass has equalized with the surrounding environment.
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2021-02-23, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
The thunder created by a real-life lightning bolt, is caused by the rapid expansion of air. It could be characterised as the air imploding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunder
But D&D separates lightning from thunder. By RAW, D&D magic lightning doesn't even make noise unless the DM chooses to rule that it does.
So I'd rule that a D&D magic lightning bolt does not scatter an obscuring mist.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-23 at 11:10 AM.
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2021-02-23, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Hence why the explosion of fireball isn't removed by simply changing the damage type. Magic can do what it wants. As the explosion of fireball isn't an inherent quality of fire damage, unlike catching things on fire, changing the energy type would not remove that quality.
Is it that hard to picture an orb of electricity spell expanding to the area size of fireball in a fashion fast and disorderly enough to be considered violent?Last edited by Darg; 2021-02-23 at 12:54 PM.
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2021-02-23, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
I agree. The psionic example IMO shows that you can have energy balls that are not fire but are still "explosive" - without the "shove things aside ability that the Explosive Spell feat does.
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2021-02-23, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Acid doesn't ignore SR inherently. Acid spells tend to be conjurations while other energy spells are generally evocations, and that is the factor that matters where spell resistance is concerned. The means by which an acid arrow is created may be magical, but the acid itself is no more magical than, say, a flask of acid from the equipment section in the PHB. Acid damage dealt by evocation spells is still subject to spell resistance, and there are even a few acid conjurations that allow for spell resistance against them.
A major benefit to substituting a spell's energy damage for acid would be to deal more damage to objects. Fire and electric damage are halved before applying hardness and cold damage deals only 1/4 damage before hardness, while acid effects deal full damage minus hardness. If anyone were to try creating a spellcaster who specializes in ranged magical sundering or something, energy substitution (acid) would be practically essential to their build."Technically correct" is the best kind of correct.
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2021-02-23, 11:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-24, 01:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Energy Substitution rules question
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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