Why Don't more people play light armor/weapon paladin

[J-H]

Resistance to nonmagical attacks also makes that Long Bow look less appetizing when I can’t(or don’t want) to get in melee or so I tend to go into support mode like a Str Paladin would. To be fair, in a different campaign getting a magic bow might not be as big a deal but my DM’s from the “Quality Not Quantity” school of magic item distribution(considering the aforementioned home brew item, they’d rightfully slap me for complaining about not having a magic bow).

Instead of a longbow, you may want to do one of the Tasha's fighting styles that gives you 2 cleric cantrips. Sacred Flame is on-theme with a range of 60'; Toll the Dead is the same range for more damage, but necrotic.

Really, one is enough and there are only two damaging cantrips worth anything (Word of Radiance is almost always a terrible choice).
One of the "X cantrip and a spell" feats may be better.

[x3n0n]

Instead of a longbow, you may want to do one of the Tasha's fighting styles that gives you 2 cleric cantrips. Sacred Flame is on-theme with a range of 60'; Toll the Dead is the same range for more damage, but necrotic.

Really, one is enough and there are only two damaging cantrips worth anything (Word of Radiance is almost always a terrible choice).
One of the "X cantrip and a spell" feats may be better.

Although Guidance + your preferred damage cantrip is a nice pairing if you don't already have Guidance in the party.

[Tanarii]

It is always a moment of dissonance when i see D&D troll art; they are not trolls.

I dunno what D&D trolls draw from, but yeah, D&D trolls are D&D trolls. They're not the same as pretty much anything else.

[ezekielraiden]

The Paladin favors being adjacent to multiple allies, due to their auras. While it is certainly possible to go Dex-heavy (and even still use a shield), in general, this implies a lower AC than wearing heavy armor, and equal-or-less damage output, which makes being a front-line combatant less attractive. This also means archery is pretty wasteful, since it means choosing between "doing good ranged damage" and "actually making use of your class features." Further, as others have noted, the mechanical advantages to being a high-Dex Paladin are notably lower than they are for other classes: you end up needing to get Dex skills from background, you lack both TWF style and Archery style, you can't multiclass without becoming super MAD. So, while it is perfectly doable and not strictly "weak" by 5e standards, it's less attractive than it could otherwise be.

Thematically, as many have said, Paladin is the stereotypical "knight in shining armor." 5e is a very "tropey" game, intentionally. The designers made that goal exceptionally clear, albeit in not so many words. Thus, you should generally expect 5e play to hew to type more strongly than other games, because it was made to be that way. Thus, while it's absolutely possible and I'm 100% sure people will gladly dogpile me with examples of how they or co-players have defied class stereotypes up the wazoo, as a general trend you should expect most things to be more like their "standard fluff" than you would in other systems. Add in that Paladins, both in general and specifically in 5e, are about as strongly-flavored as classes get, and you've got a recipe for most people sticking to what's expected even in the absence of mechanical incentives.

When both mechanical incentives and thematic ones push you toward playing Strength-based, it's going to be notably uncommon, especially compared to classes like Fighter and Barbarian. Some will see it a lot, because that's how human variability works. This is a statistical thing, not a universal truth.

(As an aside, 3e and 4e were both more play-against-type games, but for very different reasons. 3e strongly encouraged optimization, which often flies in the face of standard thematics because the designers didn't really see how their rules worked against the theme they wanted to support. 4e was radically pro-reskinning, and its "everything is core and pretty balanced" approach made more people curious about fitting disparate parts together. Both end up at the same place, encouraging less "tropey"/stereotypical/"expected" approaches, but by nearly diametrically opposite paths.)

[AvatarVecna]

It took a long time for me to realise this, but there actually isn't any reason a paladin has to be the archetypal knight in heavy armor with a big sword. Smite, there spells, and every one of there features doesn't have to be used on the frontline to be optimal. Obviously it's the classic build, and you generally want your explosive nova fighter to have a big weapon and tanky armor, but a different approach to paladin would be very doable and I'm disappointed that we don't do see it more often.

Practicality and optimization.

At least by default, Paladins don't get archery or CQS fighting styles, and smite doesn't function with ranged attacks. That makes Paladin a frontliner regardless of what specific fighting style they're using, with a bow being a backup weapon at best (for when they can't get in stabbing range quickly). Frontliner means they need Con on top of the Cha they definitely will need for multiple reasons. And if you read the "Great Weapon Fighting" Fighting Style carefully, you'll see that it applies to any damage you roll as part of the attack, which includes smites. It also applies only to weapons wielded in two hands, so that means two-handed or versatile weapons - neither of which is ever Dex-based. So you're going to want big Str for your primary fighting style.

From there you have a choice to make about Dex and armor: even if you maxed out Dex despite it being a secondary stat at best for you, your AC would never be as high as if you went full plate (all other things being equal), and other reasons to invest in Dex (saves, init, and Stealth) aren't super-applicable to paladins anyway. You don't have stealth as a class skill. You'll get Cha to Dex Saves before too long, you'll have Cha-based self-healing, and you might even have advantage against spell saves depending on subclass. Init is unfortunate, but investing in Dex just to have good init makes it a weak secondary stat. You could be investing that in Wisdom for a good Wis save (disastrous when failed) and good Insight/Perception (which will allow you to avoid getting surprised, which is useful in the same way init is).

None of this is to say that a Dex paladin can't work: a lightly-armored, rapier-wielding paladin will still do fantastically. But it's not accurate to say that the class doesn't reward you for going with big weapons and heavy armor.

[stoutstien]

I dunno what D&D trolls draw from, but yeah, D&D trolls are D&D trolls. They're not the same as pretty much anything else.

Best guess would be the novel: three hearts and three lions. It has trolls with all the features the DnD trolls has including fire weakness, long limbs and nose, and regeneration.

[x3n0n]

And if you read the "Great Weapon Fighting" Fighting Style carefully, you'll see that it applies to any damage you roll as part of the attack, which includes smites.

Run this by your DM first. According to the Sage Advice Compendium:

If you use Great Weapon Fighting with a feature like Divine Smite or a spell like hex, do you get to reroll any 1 or 2 you roll for the extra damage?

The Great Weapon Fighting feature—which is shared by fighters and paladins—is meant to benefit only the damage roll of the weapon used with the feature. For example, if you use a greatsword with the feature, you can reroll any 1 or 2 you roll on the weapon’s 2d6. If you’re a paladin and use Divine Smite with the greatsword, Great Weapon Fighting doesn’t let you reroll a 1 or 2 that you roll for the damage of Divine Smite.

(I'm not telling you you're wrong--I just know that DMs don't always agree with each other, and some of them may look to the SAC for, well, advice.)

[LudicSavant]

It also applies only to weapons wielded in two hands, so that means two-handed or versatile weapons - neither of which is ever Dex-based.

You're mistaken. Revenant Blade is a two-handed Dex-based weapon. It's been mentioned multiple times in this thread.

And if you read the "Great Weapon Fighting" Fighting Style carefully, you'll see that it applies to any damage you roll as part of the attack, which includes smites.

This is quite DM-dependent, because the official SAC says it's meant to apply to weapon damage dice, not smites. But even if your DM rules that GWF applies to smites, again, Revenant Blade exists and allows you to bump up your primary stat and get a PAM-like bonus action with the same ASI, in addition to reaping the benefits of being Dex-based.

in general, this implies (...) and equal-or-less damage output

Since when?

1) In a basic core featless game, Dex often outdamages equivalent Str builds. For example, Rapier & Board tends to beat Longsword & Board damage output because of factors like winning initiative (which effectively gives you more rounds to apply your DPR in).

2) In a feat game, GWM kind of falls off a cliff as soon as you get added damage on your attacks like IDS or Divine Smite. It's frequently worth less DPR than a raw stat bump for a Paladin. This is a well-known mathematical principle by optimizers: GWM is worth less the higher your damage-per-attack is, because the accuracy penalty becomes more and more impactful on DPR.

3) In a feat game, PAM spends a feat to give you the same bonus action attack that Dex builds already have multiple ways of getting, like, say, Revenant Blade (which not only gives you the bonus action+stat attack, but also bumps your primary stat). It gets a reaction attack, but this has to compete with the benefits of a primary stat bump, improved initiative, etc.

4) Strength builds have no equivalent to things like Elven Accuracy.

Speaking as an optimizer who has done quite a lot of mathematical analysis and testing of Paladin builds, from whence comes the assumption that Strength builds necessarily do more damage?

[x3n0n]

Since when?

1) In a featless game, Dex outdamages equivalent Str builds. Rapier beats Longsword damage output because of factors like winning initiative (which effectively gives you more rounds to apply your DPR in). Dual-wielding beats two-handed weapons because of the way that Paladins scale with multiple attacks.

2) In a feat game, GWM kind of falls off a cliff as soon as you get added damage on your attacks like IDS or Divine Smite. It's frequently worth less DPR than a raw stat bump for a Paladin. This is a well-known principle by optimizers.

3) In a feat game, PAM spend a feat to give you the same bonus action attack that Dex builds already have multiple ways of getting, like, say, Revenant Blade (which not only gives you the bonus action+stat attack, but also bumps your primary stat). It gets a reaction attack, but this has to compete with the benefits of a primary stat bump, improved initiative, etc.

4) Strength builds have no equivalent to things like Elven Accuracy.

I'm struggling to find a non-Eberron Dex TWF build that feels like like it's "online" by level 4 (and not miserable for 1-3) and feels like it's "worth it" vs a Str paladin.

TWF sketch:
V.Human Dual Wielder (Rapier/Whip, Studded or Scale)
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (Can do Cha 14 to buy two more +2s; shuffle 8/10/12s as desired--note Str for Scale or half-plate encumbrance issues)
Fighting Style to taste based on party composition, I guess? (party-generated Heavy Obscurement -> Blind Fighting. lack of party Guidance -> Blessed Warrior? Defense for that last AC?)

Without Dual Wielder, a TWF build feels like it sacrifices more AC than I'd like, and can't even use the Whip, which seems like one of the most fun reasons to do this.

Non-TWF sketch:
Some Elf (Shield, Whip or Rapier)
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (notes as above)
FS: as above, plus consider Interception (especially levels 1-3) or Dueling
Take Elven Accuracy (Dex) at 4

Without Heavy Obscurement and Blind Fighting, the best in-class advantage engine I see is Vengeance.

Others?

[LudicSavant]

I'm struggling to find a non-Eberron Dex TWF build that feels like like it's "online" by level 4 (and not miserable for 1-3) and feels like it's "worth it" vs a Str paladin.

TWF sketch:
V.Human Dual Wielder (Rapier/Whip, Studded or Scale)
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (Can do Cha 14 to buy two more +2s; shuffle 8/10/12s as desired--note Str for Scale or half-plate encumbrance issues)
Fighting Style to taste based on party composition, I guess? (party-generated Heavy Obscurement -> Blind Fighting. lack of party Guidance -> Blessed Warrior? Defense for that last AC?)

Without Dual Wielder, a TWF build feels like it sacrifices more AC than I'd like, and can't even use the Whip, which seems like one of the most fun reasons to do this.

Non-TWF sketch:
Some Elf (Shield, Whip or Rapier)
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (notes as above)
FS: as above, plus consider Interception (especially levels 1-3) or Dueling
Take Elven Accuracy (Dex) at 4

Without Heavy Obscurement and Blind Fighting, the best in-class advantage engine I see is Vengeance.

Others?

I can try to give build advice.

Can you give me a "sketch" of the Str build you want to feel worth it compared to, as well?

[Garimeth]

I'm struggling to find a non-Eberron Dex TWF build that feels like like it's "online" by level 4 (and not miserable for 1-3) and feels like it's "worth it" vs a Str paladin.

TWF sketch:
V.Human Dual Wielder (Rapier/Whip, Studded or Scale)
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (Can do Cha 14 to buy two more +2s; shuffle 8/10/12s as desired--note Str for Scale or half-plate encumbrance issues)
Fighting Style to taste based on party composition, I guess? (party-generated Heavy Obscurement -> Blind Fighting. lack of party Guidance -> Blessed Warrior? Defense for that last AC?)

Without Dual Wielder, a TWF build feels like it sacrifices more AC than I'd like, and can't even use the Whip, which seems like one of the most fun reasons to do this.

Non-TWF sketch:
Some Elf (Shield, Whip or Rapier)
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (notes as above)
FS: as above, plus consider Interception (especially levels 1-3) or Dueling
Take Elven Accuracy (Dex) at 4

Without Heavy Obscurement and Blind Fighting, the best in-class advantage engine I see is Vengeance.

Others?

V-human
RES: Dex or Sentinel or Alert or Mobile
16 Dex 16 Cha 14 Con, rest however you want.
Defense fighting style or dueling
Studded leather + shield against bruisers twf w/o FS or feat against all others.
If ancients use FF for advantage starting as soon as you get your oath
If Vengeance use you CD or Bless.
If Devotion use your CD or Bless.
Cast those buffs from stealth or surprise if possible.

Any elven race for Elven accuracy at level 4
18 Dex 16/14 Cha 14 Con
Defense fighting style or dueling
Studded leather + shield against bruisers twf w/o FS or feat against all others.
If ancients use FF for advantage starting as soon as you get your oath
If Vengeance use you CD and Bless.
If Devotion use your CD or Bless.
Cast those buffs from stealth or surprise if possible.

Those are all good from 1-20.

EDIT: Vengeance gives advantage, but its often overlooked that so does Ancients - from Faerie Fire, you just have to have a decent CHA, which you want anyway.

EDIT 2: It was pointed out that Faerie Fire is not on the Ancients list, which it is not. That is a house rule that I forgot is a house rule.

[x3n0n]

I can try to give build advice.

Can you give me a "sketch" of the Str build you want to feel worth it compared to, as well?

Hm...

Something like your PAM/Mounted Combatant build from the Fun and Effective Builds thread, but with an ASI at 4th level instead of MC?

V.Human PAM (Shield, Spear)
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (MAD as ever. Shave Cha again? Shave Str? Shuffle Dex/Int/Wis as desired.)
FS as with the shield/whip build: something other than GWF. :)

That preserves a BA attack like the TWF build.

See also V.Human HAM/GWF 2d6: the half feat helps with the Str/Cha MADness and the damage output makes you a target to reap benefits from HAM.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm struggling to find a non-Eberron Dex TWF build that feels like like it's "online" by level 4 (and not miserable for 1-3) and feels like it's "worth it" vs a Str paladin.

TWF sketch:
V.Human Dual Wielder (Rapier/Whip, Studded or Scale)
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (Can do Cha 14 to buy two more +2s; shuffle 8/10/12s as desired--note Str for Scale or half-plate encumbrance issues)
Fighting Style to taste based on party composition, I guess? (party-generated Heavy Obscurement -> Blind Fighting. lack of party Guidance -> Blessed Warrior? Defense for that last AC?)

Without Dual Wielder, a TWF build feels like it sacrifices more AC than I'd like, and can't even use the Whip, which seems like one of the most fun reasons to do this.

Non-TWF sketch:
Some Elf (Shield, Whip or Rapier)
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (notes as above)
FS: as above, plus consider Interception (especially levels 1-3) or Dueling
Take Elven Accuracy (Dex) at 4

Without Heavy Obscurement and Blind Fighting, the best in-class advantage engine I see is Vengeance.

Others?

V.Human (Fighting Initiate: TWF), take Defense as your Paladin style, use two shortswords.

Assuming point buy your standard is two attacks for 1d6+3 at 1-3.That's a pretty strong start and opening tier 2.

[1Pirate]

Instead of a longbow, you may want to do one of the Tasha's fighting styles that gives you 2 cleric cantrips. Sacred Flame is on-theme with a range of 60'; Toll the Dead is the same range for more damage, but necrotic.

Really, one is enough and there are only two damaging cantrips worth anything (Word of Radiance is almost always a terrible choice).
One of the "X cantrip and a spell" feats may be better.

This character started pre-Tasha’s. Also with the aforementioned frequently encountered magic resistance, save cantrips are really underwhelming. I can at least Branding Smite with the bow.

[LudicSavant]

Hm...

Something like your PAM/Mounted Combatant build from the Fun and Effective Builds thread, but with an ASI at 4th level instead of MC?

V.Human PAM (Shield, Spear)
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (MAD as ever. Shave Cha again? Shave Str? Shuffle Dex/Int/Wis as desired.)
FS as with the shield/whip build: something other than GWF. :)

That preserves a BA attack like the TWF build.

See also V.Human HAM/GWF 2d6: the half feat helps with the Str/Cha MADness and the damage output makes you a target to reap benefits from HAM.

I'm struggling to find a non-Eberron Dex TWF build that feels like like it's "online" by level 4 (and not miserable for 1-3) and feels like it's "worth it" vs a Str paladin.

TWF sketch:
V.Human Dual Wielder (Rapier/Whip, Studded or Scale)
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (Can do Cha 14 to buy two more +2s; shuffle 8/10/12s as desired--note Str for Scale or half-plate encumbrance issues)
Fighting Style to taste based on party composition, I guess? (party-generated Heavy Obscurement -> Blind Fighting. lack of party Guidance -> Blessed Warrior? Defense for that last AC?)

Without Dual Wielder, a TWF build feels like it sacrifices more AC than I'd like, and can't even use the Whip, which seems like one of the most fun reasons to do this.

Non-TWF sketch:
Some Elf (Shield, Whip or Rapier)
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16 (notes as above)
FS: as above, plus consider Interception (especially levels 1-3) or Dueling
Take Elven Accuracy (Dex) at 4

Without Heavy Obscurement and Blind Fighting, the best in-class advantage engine I see is Vengeance.

Others?

So, let's call these Sketch A (VHuman Dual-Wielder), Sketch B (R&S Elf), and Sketch C (VHuman PAM)

Sketch A
IMHO, the problem with Sketch A is that Dual-Wielder is not a particularly efficient use of a feat.

If you want to be a TWF Paladin build, you usually do not want the Dual Wielder feat, or even the Two Weapon Fighting style. You shouldn't assume that you need these things in order to TWF, any more than you need Mage Slayer to slay mages or Find Traps to find traps.

The reason to consider a TWF Paladin is because of low overhead -- e.g. not spending a feat to get a bonus action attack. If you're not taking advantage of that (such as by eating feats on Fighting Style or Dual-Wielder) your TWF build will likely be a worse version of something else (like Revenant Blade or Polearm Master);

Instead, a TWF Paladin should be taking the opportunity to invest in other things, like Blind-Fighting, Fey-Touched, or Inspiring Leader. This also gives them the freedom to swap between shield and TWF whenever they like.

Sketch B
Sketch B should be able to keep up just fine though, with the right choice of elf. Yeah, a Sketch C VHuman is going to be scarier at 1-3, but that's more a "VHumans are scary at 1-3" thing than a "Str vs Dex" thing. If you're, say, a Vengeance Paladin, you've got uses for your bonus action without PAM, like Hunter's Mark (both casting it and swapping it) and your Channel Divinity, and possibly something from your elf-ness (I recommend the MTOF Eladrin).

Edit:
Elaborating: The MTOF Eladrin's features aren't hard to justify as being worth a feat compared to the VHuman, I think.

First, their bonus action teleport is really good, and recharges on a short rest, meaning you can expect around 3 a day. Imagine getting 3 Misty Steps a day... then consider that the MTOF bonus action teleport is far, far superior to Misty Step. It's also giving you the ability to Frighten foes, crushing their offense and mobility. Or to do an automatic-damage AoE (no save, nothing). Or to pull an ally with you. It also doesn't count as a spell, so you can port then cast a spell.

You let me Frighten someone and teleport as a bonus action, and I'm a happy tank.

Seriously, these riders are good, especially at low level. That automatic damage AoE is better than an Action spent on Word of Radiance. That Frighten effect is worth almost as much as a 1st level slot, Action, and Concentration spent on Cause Fear (just without the potential for a longer duration from repeated failed saves).

Second, Charm Resistance is a lifesaver. It covers a broad range of nasty effects, from Hypnotic Pattern to Harpy songs and pretty much everything that takes control of your character. Combined with wis prof and aura, it makes you nearly immune to these effects, which is a good thing, because the consequences of losing control of your character for even 1 turn are severe ("I turn around and dump 3 max level smites on my ally" costs you those slots, your turn, your ally, and whatever actions your team has to do to de-charm you).

Third, you don't need to be the guy who makes the party have to start lighting torches in the underdark. Or paying for Goggles of Night. One of those things.

Fourth, you get +1 on a primary stat, which means you can take a half-feat at 4. (So really, the VHuman is only half a feat ahead, not a full feat).

Fifth, if you're a Vengeance Paladin, between the MTOF teleport, casting+swapping Hunter's Mark, and Channel Divinity, you've got plenty to spend your bonus action on.

Sixth, being Dex-based means you will go before Team Monster more often (which is a substantial difference in damage output in fights where it happens). Having access to a teleport means you're also less likely to spend rounds out of melee range due to CC, kiting, or just a fight starting far away.

So yeah, that all seems worth it to me.

[diplomancer]

The one Paladin I played up to 20 was a Strengthadin; but the next time I play one, I think I will go Dexadin, though I'd prefer to go Halfling; I might ask my DM to let me get the Revenant Blade feat, though, only reason to limit it to elves is racial bias (double scimitar is two-handed, but not heavy). If he doesn't; it's still a decent choice to go Conquest and get Spiritual Weapon as the main Bonus Action; plus, a Halfling Conquest Paladin is hilarious "all these fearful big people; I'll TEACH them to be brave or die"

[JellyPooga]

If you want to be a TWF Paladin build, you usually do not want the Dual Wielder feat, or even the Two Weapon Fighting style. You shouldn't assume that you need these things in order to TWF, any more than you need Mage Slayer to slay mages or Find Traps to find traps.

The reason to consider a TWF Paladin is because of low overhead

This is a solid overview. The advantage of Dexadin isn't in damage or AC; as has been pointed out, Dexadin falls slightly behind in both regards. The advantage of Dexadin is essentially in versatility. Where a Strengthadin will usually either choose sword-and-board or two-handed weapon and in order to capitalise, lock themselves in to that style with Fighting Style and Feats, the Dexadin can choose not to invest and happily switch between TWF, S&B and ranged combat and still largely compete while allocating their resources into other fields (Charisma for class features/spellcasting, non-combat or non-attack based Feats, etc.). The converse typically won't happen, because if you want the versatility of not turning yourself into a one-trick "grog smash" pony, you'll want, perhaps even need the Dex anyway and Dexadin doesn't have the required support to double-down on one trick in the same way that Strengthadin can.

Also, damn! I'd never looked at MtoF Eladrin before and now I want to play one! They've definitely borrowed some ideas from 3e Killoren material (Races of the Wild) and I'm not complaining.

[ezekielraiden]

Since when?

1) In a basic core featless game, Dex often outdamages equivalent Str builds. For example, Rapier & Board tends to beat Longsword & Board damage output because of factors like winning initiative (which effectively gives you more rounds to apply your DPR in).

"Winning initiative" isn't higher damage. Yes, it's useful for doing damage before your opponent is allowed to, but that's not actually the same as having higher base damage, which is what I was talking about: Strength has the option to go sword-and-board, which is equivalent base damage (since rapier is 1d8 and the typical non-finesse weapon choices are also 1d8), or it can go for two-handed weapons, forgoing the bonus AC for higher base damage.

2) In a feat game, GWM kind of falls off a cliff as soon as you get added damage on your attacks like IDS or Divine Smite. It's frequently worth less DPR than a raw stat bump for a Paladin. This is a well-known mathematical principle by optimizers: GWM is worth less the higher your damage-per-attack is, because the accuracy penalty becomes more and more impactful on DPR.

Literally wasn't thinking about feats.

Literally was just saying, the best you can do for weapon damage is 1d8 as a finesse weapon user. It's easy to do better than 1d8 as a non-finesse weapon user.

3) In a feat game, PAM spends a feat to give you the same bonus action attack that Dex builds already have multiple ways of getting, like, say, Revenant Blade (which not only gives you the bonus action+stat attack, but also bumps your primary stat). It gets a reaction attack, but this has to compete with the benefits of a primary stat bump, improved initiative, etc.

Again not relevant because I wasn't talking about feats.

4) Strength builds have no equivalent to things like Elven Accuracy.

Non-Elves have no equivalent to things like Elven Accuracy, and again, not relevant to the base damage, which is what I was pretty obviously talking about.

Speaking as an optimizer who has done quite a lot of mathematical analysis and testing of Paladin builds, from whence comes the assumption that Strength builds necessarily do more damage?

The fact, as stated, that your effective weapon-specific damage floor with a Strength-based melee character is 1d8, while the actual weapon-specific damage ceiling for a Dexterity-based character is 1d8.

Literally that was the long and short of it: Str lets you use greatswords, which do more damage than rapiers. That's it. It's not fancy. It's not complex. It's literally a simple weapon damage die comparison.

Edit: And the specific reason I included that "generally" in the front, which you cut out, is because I recognize that there are probably cases where it's possible to do better. But, in general, without serious optimization-fu (as much as 5e has "serious optimization-fu"), Strength-based Paladins are going to either do equivalent damage (because a Paladin with a shield and a rapier and 20 Dex does the same damage as a Paladin with a shield and a longsword and 20 Str), or they're going to do more damage (because a Paladin with a greatsword and 20 Str has no directly comparable Dex counterpart--only indirectly comparable ones like TWF, which, as stated, is sub-par for Paladins).

[LudicSavant]

Literally wasn't thinking about feats.

Literally was just saying, the best you can do for weapon damage is 1d8 as a finesse weapon user. It's easy to do better than 1d8 as a non-finesse weapon user.

Again not relevant because I wasn't talking about feats.

Non-Elves have no equivalent to things like Elven Accuracy, and again, not relevant to the base damage, which is what I was pretty obviously talking about.

The fact, as stated, that your effective weapon-specific damage floor with a Strength-based melee character is 1d8, while the actual weapon-specific damage ceiling for a Dexterity-based character is 1d8.

Literally that was the long and short of it: Str lets you use greatswords, which do more damage than rapiers. That's it. It's not fancy. It's not complex. It's literally a simple weapon damage die comparison.

which is what I was pretty obviously talking about.

It was not obvious to me that...

Spoiler: Quote

Show

While it is certainly possible to go Dex-heavy (and even still use a shield), in general, this implies a lower AC than wearing heavy armor, and equal-or-less damage output, which makes being a front-line combatant less attractive.

...was intended to be comparing base damage dice on the weapon table rather than the overall damage output of Str and Dex builds and their effectiveness as frontliners.

If you meant something else, I'll take your word for it.

And the specific reason I included that "generally" in the front, which you cut out

What are you talking about? I actually did not cut out the "in general" at the front...

[x3n0n]

So, let's call these Sketch A (VHuman Dual-Wielder), Sketch B (R&S Elf), and Sketch C (VHuman PAM)

Sketch A
IMHO, the problem with Sketch A is that Dual-Wielder is not a particularly efficient use of a feat.

If you want to be a TWF Paladin build, you usually do not want the Dual Wielder feat, or even the Two Weapon Fighting style. You shouldn't assume that you need these things in order to TWF, any more than you need Mage Slayer to slay mages or Find Traps to find traps.

The reason to consider a TWF Paladin is because of low overhead -- e.g. not spending a feat to get a bonus action attack. If you're not taking advantage of that (such as by eating feats on Fighting Style or Dual-Wielder) your TWF build will likely be a worse version of something else (like Revenant Blade or Polearm Master);

Instead, a TWF Paladin should be taking the opportunity to invest in other things, like Blind-Fighting, Fey-Touched, or Inspiring Leader. This also gives them the freedom to swap between shield and TWF whenever they like.

Sketch B
Sketch B should be able to keep up just fine though, with the right choice of elf. Yeah, a Sketch C VHuman is going to be scarier at 1-3, but that's more a "VHumans are scary at 1-3" thing than a "Str vs Dex" thing. If you're, say, a Vengeance Paladin, you've got uses for your bonus action without PAM, like Hunter's Mark (both casting it and swapping it) and your Channel Divinity, and possibly something from your elf-ness (I recommend the MTOF Eladrin).

Edit:
Elaborating: The MTOF Eladrin's features aren't hard to justify as being worth a feat compared to the VHuman, I think.

<snip>

So yeah, that all seems worth it to me.

Thanks! I was myopically chasing the "have a reliable BA attack to offer more chances to hit and crit" goal while maintaining the "use a whip" minor goal. I think I overestimate how many rounds there will be in a given combat day and how many BAs I'll be "wasting" by having small numbers of SR-recharge things vs something always on. (Comes from playing Rogues, Monks, Goblins, PAM users, and XBE users, I expect.)

And yes, MToF Eladrin is a great pick! This looks like it will really come alive at 3rd level between Vengeance features and Fey Step riders.

<snip build sketches>
Those are all good from 1-20.

EDIT: Vengeance gives advantage, but its often overlooked that so does Ancients - from Faerie Fire, you just have to have a decent CHA, which you want anyway.

Thanks also for these!

Where do you see Faerie Fire in the Ancients spell list? It's not in my PHB, nor in dndbeyond. (According to those, Ancients' 1st-level domain oath spells are Ensnaring Strike and Speak with Animals.)

[Garimeth]

Where do you see Faerie Fire in the Ancients spell list? It's not in my PHB, nor in dndbeyond. (According to those, Ancients' 1st-level domain oath spells are Ensnaring Strike and Speak with Animals.)

Wow, you are correct! That was a house-rule I forgot was a house rule. Sorry about that. I'll edit the previous post.

I'm glad those builds were helpful. The eladrin build Ludic posted is probably mechanically superior to the elven one I posted, I just know not everyone allows non "core" races.

[moonfly7]

That seems unlikely to be the incentive at work here, since Dexadins are among the best Paladin builds for combat.



Many people just assume the way a character is “supposed to play," often before even playing the game.

Lemme know if you've heard any of these:

“The Clerics with a martial weapon proficiency must be the ones that are good at melee, right? That +1 damage on a single attack must matter more than subclass abilities.” “I’m just gonna assume light->medium->heavy are supposed to be big important upgrades rather than playstyle-based sidegrades.” “Wizards must always be squishy, nevermind that Abjurer over there shrugging off things that would kill a Barbarian.” “Clerics are just Cure Wounds healbots, nevermind the Light Cleric over there blasting everything in a 65-foot diameter.” And more and more and more.

There’s so many of these false stereotypes and assumptions and they really hold people back in terms of both optimization and flavor.

Dexadins are fantastic. People play them (heck, playing with one right now). Some folks just take a long time to realize what’s good... and many never do.

I'm glad somebody gets it. I've always been frustrated by this. It's what stops some people from playing great ideas like "full plate rogue on horseback" which was one of my favorite characters ever. Or the heavy armor wizard, our ranger who was the AC tank, our dodgy dex skill monkey barbarian(VERY fun character), cleric as literally anything(those suckers fill any role. Had a cleric as our scout, cleric as nova tank, cleric as mobile skirmisher, stealth cleric, summoner, the list goes on) and I think people miss out because they're caught up in the myth that the idea on the box for every class is the only way to play it and be useful or have fun. Seriously treat yourself to Heavy rogue one of these days. Perhaps don't indulge in War Pick sorcerer, that didn't go to Well.

[Tanarii]

I'm glad somebody gets it. I've always been frustrated by this. It's what stops some people from playing great ideas like "full plate rogue on horseback" which was one of my favorite characters ever. Or the heavy armor wizard, our ranger who was the AC tank, our dodgy dex skill monkey barbarian(VERY fun character), cleric as literally anything(those suckers fill any role. Had a cleric as our scout, cleric as nova tank, cleric as mobile skirmisher, stealth cleric, summoner, the list goes on) and I think people miss out because they're caught up in the myth that the idea on the box for every class is the only way to play it and be useful or have fun. Seriously treat yourself to Heavy rogue one of these days. Perhaps don't indulge in War Pick sorcerer, that didn't go to Well.

Most of those require Multiclassing dips or heavy feat investment to work.

Dexadins actually stand out in that all they need is level advancement and ASIs in Dex first to (almost) catch up.