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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Quote Originally Posted by Democratus View Post
    Highly dependent on the kind of character you are playing.

    Last time I played Fantasy GURPS I played a wizard. And by the end of the first campaign I had twice as many spells as when I started. GURPS Magic allows relatively cheap purchasing of new spells and powers.

    If, instead, you are trying to make your axe-wielding barbarian significantly stronger or better at axe wielding it can be a long road. Gaining new skills is much cheaper than improving skills that are already good.
    Spells are skills in GURPS, so it makes sense. I already said you can improve skills, but that's it. What is difficult it's not worth the bother to improve is getting new Advantages, and it is Advantages where your character differs from what it was before. Wealth is an Advantage in GURPS. If you do not purchase it at character creation you may not use the 5,000 gp treasure hoard you got. You have to purchase Wealth Advantage first, and you do not get enough points at the end of the session to do so. You have to wait several game sessions meanwhile your 5,000 gp does nothing. If I recall correctly there is even comment that if you don't buy Wealthy the DM should come up with a reason why your sudden wealth goes away.

    Edit: The wealth comment might be related to if you took the Poor Disadvantage for more build points. Acquiring 5,000 gp means you're no longer Poor, giving you free build points. Therefore, if you do not buy off Poor you lose your treasure find by DM fiat.
    Last edited by Pex; 2021-02-24 at 04:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
    Rules existing are a dire threat to the divine power of the DM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
    With a play history only in dnd5e and a shaky desire to run a more homebrew campaign its been suggested on other posts that some of my thoughts might be better suited to other systems.
    Now there are plenty out there so what im after is really three things. 1. What does each bring that 5e doesn't? What does it lose? And how easy is it to learn as the dm, and for potential players. Ive had suggestions for pathfinder, numenera, savage worlds, call of cathulu, and even 3.5. So where do I go for what experience?
    If you generally don't care for homebrew and want a system that (a) Just Works, (b) makes an effort to be easy to DM, and (c) has an enthusiastic and above all helpful fanbase, I can highly recommend 4th edition D&D or 13th Age, both of which meet those qualifications in slightly different ways.

    4e D&D
    Pros:
    • If you already know D&D 5e, there's not much to unlearn. Saving throws work a bit differently, and there are static Fortitude/Reflex/Will defenses rather than rolling Con/Dex/Wis saving throws, but a lot of stuff will be close to familiar
    • Balance. You can generally trust that 4e works as advertised. A monster listed as level 4 is an appropriate threat for level 4 parties (though you usually need more than one if it's an ordinary monster, not an elite or solo)
    • Character balance. The worst excesses you get in "unbalanced" 4e content are weak (or strong) damage output or getting to apply a single skill in lots of situations.
    • Fully supported by Roll20...but see below for wrinkles.
    • Rules (as of Rules Compendium) pretty much always work as intended and have clarity and specificity as a driving design goal.
    • Superb tactical action. The game is designed to make every fight interesting and challenging, assuming both players and DMs will exploit their options intelligently. You're empowered to not pull punches, because you have a good idea how strong the things you throw at the party will be.
    • Non-combat support. Despite claims to the contrary, 4e is also quite good for the RP and non-combat stuff. Skill Challenges enable interesting, dynamic scenes without using the combat rules but still invoking real choices and ranges of success. Quests give a formalized means of defining how a character's personal journey has furthered their advancement. Rituals and utility powers cover most non-combat effects the party might find interesting.
    • Enthusiastic fanbase. It's hard to oversell how important it is to play with people who WANT to play. 4e fans genuinely love the game and will work hard to make a good experience.
    • Teamwork actually MATTERS! Unlike 3e (and to an extent 5e), you REALLY DO need to work as a team to win. Knowing how to support and play off of your allies is important, and a group will really feel like comrades in arms, rather than 4-6 solo adventurers who happen to adventure in the same place at the same time.
    • [Debatable] Survivability. Making a serious blunder can still get your character killed, but surviving early mistakes so you can learn from them is almost always possible. This makes for a much easier early-game experience, especially for newbies; you don't need to fear going splat before you reach level 3 because an orc got a lucky crit.
    • Everything is core! Never worry about official content (whether magazines or books) being broken. It may be strong or weak, but never so bad as to harm the game experience overall.

    Cons:
    • Material can be hard to find if you're only able to use books.
    • The official Character Builder is no longer supported, and the digital tools are now gone. Workarounds using the old offline CB are of dubious legality. Character building with pen and paper is totally doable, but obviously a lot slower.
    • Roll20's character sheet is theoretically able to automate nearly all combat powers...but in practice it requires you to learn the "language" it's coded in. Not all that hard, but a hurdle. Likewise, the battlemap works, but is clunky in some ways.
    • Slow play. As said, battles are meant to be exciting tactical affairs, but can take a lot of time. There are tricks to speed it up, but newbies on both sides of the screen may just need time before they're comfortable.
    • Large-scale homebrew is hard. Inventing a whole new class or Paragon Path is a Big Deal, requiring many new powers. Smaller things like builds/subclasses, feats, skills, and races are all easy, but even with 25 classes and several dozen builds/subclasses, some wish for more options.
    • There's a LOT of feats and powers, and many are mediocre. I, personally, just look up a charop guide and pick the good options, but some find the "bloat" of powers and feats offensive.
    • Presentation. 4e expects you to bring the flavor and style; it's got the rules to back you up, but some find it overly dry and technical. Again, not always a problem, but for some it ruins the experience.
    • Emphasis on refluffing/reskinning rather than homebrew, and representing monsters differently at different levels. Some find it problematic that the game encourages reinterpretation of the same rules to new concepts, and some find it offensive that an ogre can be a "solo" at first level and a "minion" at 11th level. (Different statblocks representing that an ogre is a huge threat to a 1st level character and a mere speedbump to an 11th level character.)

    Elevator pitch: Have you wanted a role-playing game where choices matter, teamwork is essential, and dynamic action is never far away? 4th edition D&D offers that experience, and provides excellent support to the DM to make it happen. Whether you stick with classic fantasy, fly in spaceships, or go for low-magic sword-and-sandal, 4e has you covered. Critically acclaimed takes on Dark Sun and Eberron, along with a fascinating implied setting in the world of Nentir Vale and the award-winning Zeitgeist adventure path from ENWorld, give you plenty of diverse starting points if you're looking for a prewritten setting.

    13th Age
    Pros:
    • Most of the balance of 4e, with the presentation and feel of 3.x, which should surprise no one because it's literally designed by Heinsoo and Tweet, the lead designers of 4e and 3e respectively.
    • Very fiction-focused. With One Unique Things, Backgrounds as skills (more below), Icon relationships, item quirks, and more, it's got roleplay hooks friggin errywhere.
    • [Debatable] Fistfuls of dice. If you like rolling, this will have your back--you usually roll damage dice scaled by your level.
    • Midway between "tatical" and "TotM" combat: by using range bands, positioning matters, but isn't an exacting affair. You can lean things in either direction if you so choose.
    • Anti-bloat. While there's still quite a few choices, 13A avoids bloat by keeping feats focused, and making it so you only choose a small number of talents.
    • Spread of class complexity. Especially with the very excellent 13 True Ways supplement, there's options for every taste as far as intricate vs straightforward classes go.
    • Easy to homebrew. Unlike 4e, making new classes isn't much work, and there's a pretty sizable homebrew community for such a relatively small game.
    • Workable for almost any setting. I really like the default setting, but you can make this engine work in nearly any setting with just minor tweaks (and, IMO, designing custom Icons is fun.)
    • As with 4e, survivability is pretty good. You aren't likely to die due to bad luck, but bad choices can still really hurt.
    • Escalation Die. One of the best mechanics in this system, and one that many many many people liked so much they've stolen it for use in other systems.
    • Monster design is sort of midway between 4e and 5e. Baseline monster features are as balanced as 4e, but the Nastier Specials stuff (e.g. a banshee's death wail) are specifically NOT balanced around, with the expectation that you, as DM, need to think about how they'll affect your party.
    • Excellent, excellent rules discussion. Unlike any other game I've seen, the designers talk directly to the reader about their thought processes on various rules--and even explicitly say when the two of them disagree about how something should work. The 13t Age books are GREAT for green DMs still learning the ropes, because they talk about the WHY behind the rules in ways I've never seen elsewhere.



    Cons:
    • Only 10 levels. The "incremental advance" rules let you spool things out longer, but if you want a real long-runner, you may be disappointed by reaching "the end" of levels a long time before the campaign wraps.
    • Saves work like 4e, but have variable target number (easy, normal, hard). This may be confusing for people very used to 3e or 5e.
    • Small list of classes (compared to 4e and especially 3.x/PF). As noted, homebrew covers a lot of the gaps, but you aren't keen on that so this could be a sticking point. It's more than 5e though, if you include the 13TW classes, so...
    • Feats are mostly talent-specific. The bloat may be down, but feats can feel fiddly and the whole tier progression thing can be confusing.
    • Backgrounds can really take time to learn how to handle well. They're great for eliminating the "my character SHOULD be skilled at this" problem, but you have to learn how to say "no" at the right times without discouraging creative approaches to challenges.
    • A lot of people really don't like the Icon mechanics. I think they're rad, but many threads pop up asking how to remove them. This may or may not apply to you too.
    • Strong links between specific classes and specific complexity levels. This one bothers me a lot. You really can't play a "complex" Paladin. You really can't play a "simple" Wizard. Fighters are somewhat in the eye of the beholder, as some may find them restrictively simple while others may feel like the "flexible attacks" are too complicated. There are (as usual) homebrew solutions to these issues, but if you want to play 100% by the book, they'll be present.
    • Minimal non-book support. There IS a very helpful discord and a small but devoted fanbase. But outside of that, there's really no integration with anything as far as I know. No digital tools, no VTT stuff, minimal character sheet things...the game is MOSTLY simple enough that you may not need them, but it is a notable lack compared to most versions of D&D/PF.

    Elevator Pitch: Do you want a game that balances out balance and story, that has high-flying action without all the technical minutia? Do you love games where every PC is a hero standing out from the crowd, where big forces and organizations play a role in shaping the story? Then check out 13th Age. Brilliant rules design, diverse but not excessive options, and clear yet flavorful text make for a great experience whether as DM or player. Develop your character's story with their One Unique Thing and Backgrounds that turn your history into the skills you use to save the day, while your connections to the great Icons provide drama and resources to push the game forward. Enjoy the rich history of the Dragon Empire setting, or develop your own with custom Icons and lore!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I have tried, as much as possible, to give a fair and unbiased reporting. I love both of these systems, but I recognize that neither is perfect. I truly hope you give at least one of them a look, as they are both excellent games that rarely get the love they deserve.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Spells are skills in GURPS, so it makes sense. I already said you can improve skills, but that's it. What is difficult it's not worth the bother to improve is getting new Advantages, and it is Advantages where your character differs from what it was before. Wealth is an Advantage in GURPS. If you do not purchase it at character creation you may not use the 5,000 gp treasure hoard you got. You have to purchase Wealth Advantage first, and you do not get enough points at the end of the session to do so. You have to wait several game sessions meanwhile your 5,000 gp does nothing. If I recall correctly there is even comment that if you don't buy Wealthy the DM should come up with a reason why your sudden wealth goes away.

    Edit: The wealth comment might be related to if you took the Poor Disadvantage for more build points. Acquiring 5,000 gp means you're no longer Poor, giving you free build points. Therefore, if you do not buy off Poor you lose your treasure find by DM fiat.
    It's not as strict. The books tell the Gm that a character who earns enough wealth to move up a wealth category should have to pay the points for this, which is as much about NPC reactions as raw money. That's actually quite difficult at the higher Wealth levels, considering that most characters are assumed to have at least 80% of their wealth in their lifestyle, which is not simple to set up especially if you didn't begin as poor.

    I think the same applies to HERO, other games have either less tracking of wealth level or completely disassociate it from 'experience'. Probably ideal in the longer time is wealth level systems where something like a dragon's hoard rewards you with '4500gp (+1 Wealth per PC)'.

    Now I do know games which work exactly like you describe, but they tend to be lighter narrative games.

    And that 80% in lifestyle (and holdings) is important, because it means that moving up a wealth level is not about getting a one time dump, but rather getting a source of income that'll allow you to maintain your lifestyle.

    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    13th Age
    I love 13th Age, but I think the way levelling works means it isn't suitable. Even with the gradual levelling mechanics the curve is still actually at least as fast as 5e.


    New recommendation, Modern AGE.

    Modern Age
    Pros:

    • Level based, so you still get that feeling of getting a bunch of things at once, but the benefits of levels are relatively minimal. Especially on Gritty mode (where levels don't even give Health!).
    • Classless, characters advance entirely as the player wishes.
    • Mostly follows the 5e stance on rulings over rules, but features basic systems for things like investigation and social interaction.
    • The Companion features several fantasy races as an alternative to using social backgrounds in character creation.
    • In addition to a magic/psionics system it includes a basic superpowers system that can be used for anything from cybernetics to godly abilities.
    • 3d6 based, so the bell curve produces more reliable results.
    • Stunts: if you roll doubles you get 1-6 points (decided by one of the dice you roll, which is a different colour to differentiate it) to make our action do cool new things. In early versions of AGE this was a mainly combat thing, but Modern AGE features more robust exploration, investigation, and conversation Stunts.



    Cons:
    • It's level based, with everything that comes with that.
    • The three 'nodes of play' make enemy statblocks more confusing.
    • Abstract Wealth is a love it or hate it mechanic.
    • Weapon damage doesn't noticeably scale, which can lead to problems on Pulpy and especially Cinematic mode.


    It's pretty much my new go to for Lovecraftian Horror to Cyberpunk,but it isn't perfect. Earlier AGE games have problems, including being shackled to a Warrior/Rogue/Mage system because they began with the Dragon Age RPG. Modern AGE is also where I first saw noncombat playstyles getting support beyond Talents, although the Contacts Talent is still not something I like (the first level lets you turn NPCs into contacts, which is not something I've been denied outside systems where contacts cost XP).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Spells are skills in GURPS, so it makes sense. I already said you can improve skills, but that's it. What is difficult it's not worth the bother to improve is getting new Advantages, and it is Advantages where your character differs from what it was before. Wealth is an Advantage in GURPS. If you do not purchase it at character creation you may not use the 5,000 gp treasure hoard you got. You have to purchase Wealth Advantage first, and you do not get enough points at the end of the session to do so. You have to wait several game sessions meanwhile your 5,000 gp does nothing. If I recall correctly there is even comment that if you don't buy Wealthy the DM should come up with a reason why your sudden wealth goes away.

    Edit: The wealth comment might be related to if you took the Poor Disadvantage for more build points. Acquiring 5,000 gp means you're no longer Poor, giving you free build points. Therefore, if you do not buy off Poor you lose your treasure find by DM fiat.
    This. Is. Not. True.

    If you gain 5000 GP, you can spend 5000 GP. You do not have to buy any wealth category to do so. No such rule exists in GURPS. There is an explicit advice to require characters that start off with the Poor Disadvantage that gain wealth to buy it off, but that is not the same thing.


    If you start a Dead Broke (essentially has nothing) GURPS character who immediately finds a trillion dollars 5 minutes into the adventure, that character can spend a trillion dollars.

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    Since I didn't see it brought up. My group and I recently went from 3.PF to Godbound. (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...s-Free-Edition ) You can peak at the book for free as well, it's only missing a couple of chapters (That largely deal with mortal/transition characters.)

    I personally found it very, very easy to setup and get into. It has a perfect blend of structure and freeform. Our group personally was trying to find a middle ground between 3.5 (And it's mechanical strictness) and BESM (Big Eyes Small Mouth, and it's entirely freeform approach.) it's easy enough to learn the rules, the combat is pretty fast paced once everyone gets the hang of it.

    I ran for a group of 6 players, with 3 enemy godbounds, and some 20-30 mooks, the battle itself only took maybe 30-40 minutes. Trying to run an equivalent combat in 3.5 was like an hour+. I don't really know an easy way to sell you on the system itself, as in my opinion, it sells itself far better, with a brief read of the book, mechanics and how characters are built. I'd recommend poking the link and checking it out.
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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    This. Is. Not. True.

    If you gain 5000 GP, you can spend 5000 GP. You do not have to buy any wealth category to do so. No such rule exists in GURPS. There is an explicit advice to require characters that start off with the Poor Disadvantage that gain wealth to buy it off, but that is not the same thing.


    If you start a Dead Broke (essentially has nothing) GURPS character who immediately finds a trillion dollars 5 minutes into the adventure, that character can spend a trillion dollars.
    Then it's a rule change since last I've read on GURPS, because it was that way and among the reasons I stopped playing it.
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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Nope. Wasn't in 1st Edition. Wasn't in 2nd Edition. Wasn't in 3rd Edition. Isn't in 4th Edition. No such rule has ever existed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Nope. Wasn't in 1st Edition. Wasn't in 2nd Edition. Wasn't in 3rd Edition. Isn't in 4th Edition. No such rule has ever existed.

    Right. Transitioning to a "wealthy lifestyle" would be a different question.

    Which is admittedly a touch wonky.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Then it's a rule change since last I've read on GURPS, because it was that way and among the reasons I stopped playing it.
    I think you or the GM were seeing a piece of GMing advice in a sidebar and assuming it was a rule. The wording is a little bit vague as well, basically just saying 'if the player would get the benefit of a higher Wealth Level make them buy it off. It's just an extrapolation of the general 'if a player has taken a Disad and it doesn't come up make it come up or force them to buy it off'.

    Wealth does give additional gear as a benefit, but it's not the primary component of the (dis)advantage and as such a character only needs to buy levels if they get the 80% in holdings, property, andc wardrobe, not just the 20% in gear.

    But again, this is one reason why counting coins in a game with CP-based Wealth is problematic.
    Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2021-02-25 at 05:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    My only experience with the system was playing in someone else's game, and after he had done all the number-crunching to build the system it was very easy to play. But I could not recreate that experience without some time-consuming deep-diving.

    (It's been a while and I don't remember much beyond the surprise at how easy it was to play given my expectations of complexity, and then seeing the absolute confirmation of those complexity expectations when I got a peek under the hood.)

    Seen from the outside, GURPS appears to be quite a large time investment -- with an equally large payout, but you need to dive deep before you can get to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    As an entertaining read, it's a great book; as a source of inspiration and examples, it's fine; but as a reference tool for finding monsters to throw at my group, it was insufficient.
    Hey, it's more monster manual than 90% of non-D&D systems offer.
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    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Hey, it's more monster manual than 90% of non-D&D systems offer.
    Sure, but OP is coming from 5e D&D, which has a significantly different (and better) meaning for monster manual.

    If we tell him that DFRPG has a good monster manual, then it would be reasonable for him to expect something like a D&D monster manual, rather than page after page of character bios. He would be set up for disappointment.

    Personally I enjoy the 2nd book ("Our World"), and I would recommend it, but if you can only buy one book then buy the first book ("Your Story"). It's enough to play the game without the 2nd book, and the first book has some absurdly good meta-game advice and mechanics -- e.g. their procedure for session zero / city creation is something I carry into other game systems. The first book forever changed how I game (for the better); the second book was a fun read.

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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Oh! Sometimes I forget I have this one, but Burning Wheel could work!

    Burning Wheel
    Pros
    • Dice pool based system, meaning that results are relatively predictable.
    • Skills increase via use, but only if the roll would meaningfully advance the plot. Advancement is relatively slow, but encourages engagement.
    • The book contains some of the best advice for running I've seen, including saying 'yes, but..', failing forward, and the idea of 'let it ride' (you roll once, and let that roll stand).
    • Different stocks feel different, and most have unique magic systems (although dwarves don't use their, the humans and roden share one(/2), and trolls aren't smart enough).
    • Character creation is it's own minigame, which is relatively run, involving working out your characters rough backstory by going through a number of lifepaths..
    • The system designer rejected the idea of character balance in exchange for emulating what people would have realistically and narratively.
    • The entire system is in two really nice books.
    • Lifepaths are based on actual data for medieval france. Well, for humans at least.
    • Duel of Wits is the best social combat system I've ever seen (mainly because it focuses on convincing third parties).


    Cons[*]It is quite complex.[*]The system designer rejected the idea of character balance.[*]Character creation takes a lot of time.[*]The system designer rejected the idea of character balance. No really, an elf or noble will just be better than a commoner.[*]It is very tied to medieval fantasy.[*]Duel of Wits, Range and Cover, and Fight! are relatively complex for theatre of the mind combat systems, involving planning your actions in sets of three before resolving the set.[*]Advancement requires a lot of tracking. Failed rolls, easy successful rolls, difficult successful rolls, as well as Fate, Persona, and Destiny points spent on rolls with that skill.

    Easiness to GM
    It varies, it's worth getting the book to just read the GMing advice.It's going to hard coming from 5e just because of the very different system assumptions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Sure, but OP is coming from 5e D&D, which has a significantly different (and better) meaning for monster manual.
    "Monsters" also have a different purpose in 5e D&D than they do in DFRPG.

    If you're just throwing waves of enemies at the PCs in DFRPG, I think you're kinda missing the point.
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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    "Monsters" also have a different purpose in 5e D&D than they do in DFRPG.

    If you're just throwing waves of enemies at the PCs in DFRPG, I think you're kinda missing the point.
    But you would be simulating the DF universe pretty well.

    There are numerous books where he and his companions are fighting off waves of zombies, cultists, monsters, etc.

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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Quote Originally Posted by Democratus View Post
    But you would be simulating the DF universe pretty well.

    There are numerous books where he and his companions are fighting off waves of zombies, cultists, monsters, etc.
    There are fights, and some big ones.

    But there's usually only a couple per book (with a few obvious exceptions), and they're never really "just to have a fight". They're there to answer some story question.

    This is different, I think, than a lot of RPGs where fighting is kinda the point. In those situations, a GM would reasonably look through a monster manual for interesting fights to make sure the players have fun encounters. In DFRPG, that should start with "what's the story? What's the conflict? Is a fight appropriate?" and only then go to what the fight is, where the context should inform what baddies are there.
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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    But there's usually only a couple per book (with a few obvious exceptions), and they're never really "just to have a fight". They're there to answer some story question.
    Yeah so the thing is

    The actual thing which happened is

    I wanted a fight which was there for a legit story reason, and I spent more time on the story than decoding and reverse-engineering NPC stats, so what I wanted was the book to give me some NPC stats which fit into the story I had written.

    Let me repeat that: I wanted ONE type of combat-readyNPC (some sort of baby chlorofiend), for a legit story reason.

    The book failed to help me.



    This strawman about "waves of enemies" is entirely in your head.

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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    So, I just read the third edition of Unknown Armies and I'm a huge fan of what they did with the system.

    Basically, you have five scales in the game, each of which represents a kind of trauma. These are your character stats: Helplessness, Isolation, Self, Unnaturalness and Violence. In each of these categories, you can be hardened, damaged or both. Hardened characters become immune to trauma on that scale, but it also comes with disadvantages. Hardening also changes your skills: more hardened characters automatically are lower in some skills, but higher in others. For example, as you become more hardened to unnatural events, your Notice skill goes down, but your Lying skill goes up.

    They also give you a general guide on how your character might behave, of course. For example, a character who is hardened to Isolation doesn't care about other people. A character who is damaged in any of the categories is probably fearful.
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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Yeah so the thing is

    The actual thing which happened is

    I wanted a fight which was there for a legit story reason, and I spent more time on the story than decoding and reverse-engineering NPC stats, so what I wanted was the book to give me some NPC stats which fit into the story I had written.

    Let me repeat that: I wanted ONE type of combat-readyNPC (some sort of baby chlorofiend), for a legit story reason.

    The book failed to help me.



    This strawman about "waves of enemies" is entirely in your head.
    Nah, I was responding to someone else comparing to 5e. Which is a game where you send waves of enemies at players, effectively.
    EDIT: Nope, it was you. Sorry! I stand by the claim that monsters in D&D have a different role than they do in DFRPG.

    Sorry the book didn't help you in that case :/ It probably could have better advice on how to build up monsters apart from the ones in the books.
    Last edited by kyoryu; 2021-02-28 at 01:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
    With a play history only in dnd5e
    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Nah, I was responding to someone else comparing to 5e. Which is a game where you send waves of enemies at players, effectively.
    EDIT: Nope, it was you. Sorry! I stand by the claim that monsters in D&D have a different role than they do in DFRPG.

    Sorry the book didn't help you in that case :/ It probably could have better advice on how to build up monsters apart from the ones in the books.
    The OP has only run 5e games.

    That is why you see people discussing other systems in comparison to 5e.

    We are trying to be helpful to the OP.

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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Well, someone looking for less scaling and more sword & sorcery...my personal favorite fantasy RPG is:

    Blade of The Iron Throne

    Essentially Sword & Sorcery, The Game.

    What It Brings

    1) A system where to quote one of my players, “it lets you feel powerful, and be powerful - like it feels good to chop down a mook in one blow - but you can still die from a spear to the face”. Essentially characters start at Hollywood Human and don’t grow much past there...but “leveling up” really isn’t the point. It’s the sort of power where if there is a monster or demon, it plays more like Alien than Aliens. Grendel is not a push over.

    2) Direct player involvement in the story. Players set their own motivations, which are then mechanically rewarded as both XP and power while doing that. Example: I had one player decide he wanted to get revenge on a man who has driven him out of the king’s guard. That became an NPC, part of the plot I could weave in, a couple cool fights, and actually rewarded the player for following what he said his story was.

    3) A beautiful melee combat system. One where you have a boatload of discrete options, and they all have their place - and where player skill can often compensate for character builds. It’s the type of system where a rapier through the throat will kill a man, while the classic arming sword is going to ping ineffectually off of chain mail in most cases (the preferred method is to reverse it for a Murder Stroke, using the pommel to bash someone into a daze before stabbing him in an unarmored or only gambesoned weak point - and fights in plate with anything less than big mass weapons are likely to end with someone grappling the other guy and trying to break an arm or render him immobile to stab him in the eye slit). A beautiful system for both mook chopping and big dramatic duels.

    4) A low magic magic system. Magic is mysterious, ritualistic, and powerful, but is more on the lines of curses, prophecies, ancient secrets, and hypnosis than it is “flying invisible lightning blaster man who heals!”. In other words, properly terrifying but not your default answer for everything.

    What It’s Not

    It’s not high fantasy. This is not a system for a sorcerer, a warlock, and a vampire kin to save the world in daily feats of demigod ness. It’s a system for humans (or humanoids with a hack) to pursue goals that are far more personal in scale.

    It’s not one die and done. The dice run smooth once you know what you’re doing, there is crunch comparable to D&D.

    It’s not a big commercial project. Not going to lie, the rule book could use some editing and layout changes. Certainly not a disaster, but it isn’t as polished as some.

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    Default Re: Choosing a system

    Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
    1. What does each bring that 5e doesn't? What does it lose? And how easy is it to learn as the dm, and for potential players. Ive had suggestions for pathfinder, numenera, savage worlds, call of cathulu, and even 3.5. So where do I go for what experience?
    Savage Worlds
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    1. It brings less complicated rules. It's easier to manage. Character creation and advancement is a uniquely personal experience and there is a high variance of playstyle.
    2. It forfeits a lot of the high fantasy of 5e and basically all of the consistency of everything. It's best run as a high fatality realistic game in my experience.
    3. It's easy to learn and DM for.


    Legend
    Spoiler: Legend (by Rule of Cool)
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    1. It's better for high fantasy than 5e. It offers far more character creation options and freedoms. The combat is, imo, just more fun. Free
    2. It has an extremely small playerbase. It's fairly difficult to learn, in my opinion, its about on par with 5e, but that's just me.
    3. It requires an active DM who likes using the rules to custom design monsters.


    Open Legend
    Spoiler: Open Legend
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    1. It's incredibly easy to learn. Character creation is very free.
    2. It's incredibly swingy, combat is super unfun and it feels like a game. I personally dislike this system.
    3. It's, imo, the least fun system to DM for that I will mention.


    Weaverdice

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    1. Super game. Super simple rules that make for a fun experience. No battle map required.
    2. It's a super game. Players don't have full control over their character creation. It relies on backroom dealing and out of session action, which can be a pro or a con. Requires a lot of creative input from the full party.
    3. Super easy to learn and play.


    Mutants and Masterminds

    Spoiler: Mutants and Masterminds
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    1. Super game. Complicated rules. Very detailed character creation.
    2. Unbalanced AF. Easy to break. Pretty complicated.
    3. It'll take a while for everyone.
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