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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    I guess you summed it good up. A pretty long argumentation chain, after seeing the several points..^^ but still RAW imho.

    The point is, once a "defined keyword" in 3.5 gets mentioned, you are automatically forced under their rules (Primary Source Rule). You can alter these rules by making exceptions for specific niches but that's all the freedom you'll get.
    And crafting does that: It uses spells and "alters" their general rules. Warlock fakes the entire ("altered") spell cast.
    Ok, im going to use a part of your argument to try to explain it better. Crafting does alter the general rules of how you work with the spell. It does so by having you trigger them as a part of crafting instead of casting them. Notice how the crafting rules dont say that you get to ignore component costs as a part of crafting, you would just also be paying for the fact that the xp component exists as a part of crafting.
    If trigger means cast, and there is nothing that says you dont pay components when crafting, that would mean youd be paying them once a day per day you have to craft an item as someone mentioned earlier.

    Instead though, the rules for using the spell are altered, since you're using it in a new way. The rules gett altered to where instead of having to castt the spell everyday and deal with components, you magically infuse the triggered spell into the item.

    You cannot appeal to the "general spell rules" because when you're crafring a magic item you're using the altered "crafting an item" rules instead.

    At this point you have to prove that any book anywhere says that you are casting the spell, which is a clearly defined process that you can use as a reference, and without just saying that you simply "think it means casting but an altered cast"

    If you were referring to how magic items themselves trigger spells thatd be a different story because they usually pretty much follow the spellcasting rules for the most part so I'd give ya that one

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    Ok, im going to use a part of your argument to try to explain it better. Crafting does alter the general rules of how you work with the spell. It does so by having you trigger them as a part of crafting instead of casting them. Notice how the crafting rules dont say that you get to ignore component costs as a part of crafting, you would just also be paying for the fact that the xp component exists as a part of crafting.
    If trigger means cast, and there is nothing that says you dont pay components when crafting, that would mean youd be paying them once a day per day you have to craft an item as someone mentioned earlier.

    Instead though, the rules for using the spell are altered, since you're using it in a new way. The rules gett altered to where instead of having to castt the spell everyday and deal with components, you magically infuse the triggered spell into the item.

    You cannot appeal to the "general spell rules" because when you're crafring a magic item you're using the altered "crafting an item" rules instead.

    At this point you have to prove that any book anywhere says that you are casting the spell, which is a clearly defined process that you can use as a reference, and without just saying that you simply "think it means casting but an altered cast"

    If you were referring to how magic items themselves trigger spells thatd be a different story because they usually pretty much follow the spellcasting rules for the most part so I'd give ya that one
    First, in chase you missed my edit of my last post on the last page: Imho "trigger" is a specific form of casting. (see Spell Trigger Items).

    1. The rules alter the cast to being triggered.
    2. Component rules get altered into when you begin crafting (only the first day) and the spell gets triggered
    3. It's still altered "spell cast rules" and thus Imbue Item bypasses em with an UMD roll. The first day it fakes the spell cast including the demanded components and every day thereafter he just fakes the spell being triggered without any material components needed anymore (as per specific crafting rules).

    Just because they are altered doesn't stop em from counting as spells/casts/components.
    e.g. Just because Power Attack alters normal attack rules doesn't stop em from counting as attacks.
    As such, just because crafting rules alter spell/cast/component rules they don't stop being them. The warlock fakes the entire altered cast (including components when needed).

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    First, in chase you missed my edit of my last post on the last page: Imho "trigger" is a specific form of casting. (see Spell Trigger Items).

    1. The rules alter the cast to being triggered.
    2. Component rules get altered into when you begin crafting (only the first day) and the spell gets triggered
    3. It's still altered "spell cast rules" and thus Imbue Item bypasses em with an UMD roll. The first day it fakes the spell cast including the demanded components and every day thereafter he just fakes the spell being triggered without any material components needed anymore (as per specific crafting rules).

    Just because they are altered doesn't stop em from counting as spells/casts/components.
    e.g. Just because Power Attack alters normal attack rules doesn't stop em from counting as attacks.
    As such, just because crafting rules alter spell/cast/component rules they don't stop being them. The warlock fakes the entire altered cast (including components when needed).
    i didn't miss anything, i just asked you to prove that trigger = casting instead of just stating your opinion that it's the case.

    stating it as your opinion does not = "this is the phrase in the book that tells us that trigger means cast and not something different"

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    i didn't miss anything, i just asked you to prove that trigger = casting instead of just stating your opinion that it's the case.

    stating it as your opinion does not = "this is the phrase in the book that tells us that trigger means cast and not something different"
    I have based my argument on actual rule text.

    1. crafting rules make use of "spells"
    2. spells require "casts"
    3. trigger is a specific way to cast spells (see spell trigger items)
    4. components are a part of spell casts
    5. crafting rules alter spell cast and component rules
    6. Imbue Item bypasses the altered spell cast rules for crafting purposes.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    I have based my argument on actual rule text.

    1. crafting rules make use of "spells"
    2. spells require "casts"
    3. trigger is a specific way to cast spells (see spell trigger items)
    4. components are a part of spell casts
    5. crafting rules alter spell cast and component rules
    6. Imbue Item bypasses the altered spell cast rules for crafting purposes.
    What do you mean "spells require casts"? Spells are cast by spellcasters, but it isn't the only way a spell is used. ie: being crafted or used as a spell-like ability.

    Sure, "spell trigger" is a type of magic item, but it is not a way you cast spells. Can you counter spell those? No. Why? Because it's producing a spell-like effect, but not actually "casting" the spell. Nowhere have you shown that something has said "triggering a spell through crafting is the same as casting a spell; except as follows" or anything similar, just that "spell trigger" is the name of an activation method

    as such

    Spells still don't require casts when they're being put in an item, because you haven't proved that trigger = cast

    Doesn't the fact that the terms are explicitly called out as completely separate uses of a spell by the rules kind of mean that they aren't the same thing?



    edit: as a bonus, the crafting section under each item type literally all literally specify what exactly it means to "trigger" the spell when crafting an item:

    The act of working on the ..(item).. triggers the
    prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each
    day of the weapon’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended
    from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
    the section literally clarifies that triggering a spell means that working on the item expends a spell slot just like casting a spell expends a spell slot and nothing more than that. If you say that it does mean more you will have to show something that says something different than the magic item creation section, and even that wouldn't really do much because the magic item creation rules are primary. The whole "spells have primary rules" thing you're trying to do falls flat because spells have different rules based on how they're being used. They are either cast, or used in crafting a magic item, and those two things are not the same thing
    Last edited by Raishoiken; 2021-02-27 at 12:04 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36

    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by d20srd
    The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
    as if =/= actual casting.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    What do you mean "spells require casts"? Spells are cast by spellcasters, but it isn't the only way a spell is used. ie: being crafted or used as a spell-like ability.
    "Casting" a spell is the most general way to use spells. PHB p169 the Magic chapter (the Primary Source for Spells) starts with "Casting Spells". As already said in my previous posts, SLA's, spell trigger items and crafting make all use of "spells" and thus alter the general spell rules. SLA's also change the way a spell is cast (changing Components and the way AoO behave). Crafting does the same by altering the "casting" to "trigger" and altering the "component" rules to whatever the crafting feat requires (e.g. wands demanding multiple material component costs)..

    Sure, "spell trigger" is a type of magic item, but it is not a way you cast spells. Can you counter spell those? No. Why? Because it's producing a spell-like effect, but not actually "casting" the spell. Nowhere have you shown that something has said "triggering a spell through crafting is the same as casting a spell; except as follows" or anything similar, just that "spell trigger" is the name of an activation method
    I've shown you that spells need to be cast and that spell trigger is another form of it.
    Remember that anything that uses spells needs to either behave under or alter the "spell" rules.
    Spell trigger is as such just another form to cast a spell. Wands use "spell trigger" and they cast spells (in a specific way). And yeah, spells from wands are "counter spell"-able. Imho you are starting to throw arguments without even proven em here. Lets take our time here pls. No need to hurry, I don't run away. Nor have I any ill intentions here. I don't think that you really believe/play with your spell trigger is not counterable argument and that you are just rushing argument here. Take you time as I try to take mine. We don't need to feel rushed and get overheated here. (and sorry if I implied things that may not be true. I just try to calm the discussion down here a bit ;)

    edit: as a bonus, the crafting section under each item type literally all literally specify what exactly it means to "trigger" the spell when crafting an item:
    yeah, it alters the general rules for spell casting and shows how spell casts behave when triggered as part of crafting.


    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    as if =/= actual casting.
    Have I said something else? I know that it only "fakes" the spell cast and that the warlock does't actually cast the spell (and thus doesn't need to provide components). That's what I'm telling here. I don't see how this should affect my viewpoint?

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    "Casting" a spell is the most general way to use spells. PHB p169 the Magic chapter (the Primary Source for Spells) starts with "Casting Spells". As already said in my previous posts, SLA's, spell trigger items and crafting make all use of "spells" and thus alter the general spell rules. SLA's also change the way a spell is cast (changing Components and the way AoO behave). Crafting does the same by altering the "casting" to "trigger" and altering the "component" rules to whatever the crafting feat requires (e.g. wands demanding multiple material component costs)..


    I've shown you that spells need to be cast and that spell trigger is another form of it.
    Remember that anything that uses spells needs to either behave under or alter the "spell" rules.
    Spell trigger is as such just another form to cast a spell. Wands use "spell trigger" and they cast spells (in a specific way). And yeah, spells from wands are "counter spell"-able. Imho you are starting to throw arguments without even proven em here. Lets take our time here pls. No need to hurry, I don't run away. Nor have I any ill intentions here. I don't think that you really believe/play with your spell trigger is not counterable argument and that you are just rushing argument here. Take you time as I try to take mine. We don't need to feel rushed and get overheated here. (and sorry if I implied things that may not be true. I just try to calm the discussion down here a bit ;)


    yeah, it alters the general rules for spell casting and shows how spell casts behave when triggered as part of crafting.



    Have I said something else? I know that it only "fakes" the spell cast and that the warlock does't actually cast the spell (and thus doesn't need to provide components). That's what I'm telling here. I don't see how this should affect my viewpoint?

    Casting a spell is indeed the most common way a spell is used. This does not mean that every other way to use spells is another form of casting a spell. You havent proven that it is, you just keep stating your opinion that trigger and cast mean the same thing, even though multiple people now have shown that it isnt the case

    Same thing with sla's, for which your arguement would actually make more sense for: activating an sla is not casting a spell either, even though they work essentially the same way.


    The important part you're missing is that the crafting section isnt changing how you are castong a spell. The crafting section is showing how you use a spell in a way that isnt casting it. Thats why ot doesnt use the word cast when describing how you use the spell during crafting.

    All you have done is say "crafting items section just changes how certain terms function in when casting spells because casting a spell is the primary way you use a spell", without actually giving any rules text that say that trigger and cast is the same.

    The fact that all of the crafting section says the spell slots are expended "as if the spell was cast", as homie said above me, should be literally all the proof you need that the spell isnt being cast. Because if the spell being triggered was the spell being cast, it would say somehing along the lines of "the spell slot is still consumed normally". Instead, it shows the literally only way that trigger and cast are similar, which is that a slot gets burned


    Long story short: just because casting a spell is the most common way you use a spell, doesnt mean every other way you use a spell is just a different way to "cast" a spell. Crafting rule doesnt "alter" casting rule, its just a different set of rules for using spells in general




    Does anyone else have a more concise way to explain this concept?
    Last edited by Raishoiken; 2021-03-01 at 11:55 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    Casting a spell is indeed the most common way a spell is used. This does not mean that every other way to use spells is another form of casting a spell.
    The Primary Source Rule demands that anything has either to obey the general rules or make specific exceptions for their niche. If you agree that casting a spell is the most common way to use/activate a spell, you agreed that this is the general rule that the Primary Source dictates. As such anything that makes use of spells have to either follow the general cast rules or can makes specific exceptions/changes to them for their niche.


    You havent proven that it is, you just keep stating your opinion that trigger and cast mean the same thing, even though multiple people now have shown that it isnt the case

    Same thing with sla's, for which your arguement would actually make more sense for: activating an sla is not casting a spell either, even though they work essentially the same way.


    The important part you're missing is that the crafting section isnt changing how you are castong a spell. The crafting section is showing how you use a spell in a way that isnt casting it. Thats why ot doesnt use the word cast when describing how you use the spell during crafting.

    All you have done is say "crafting items section just changes how certain terms function in when casting spells because casting a spell is the primary way you use a spell", without actually giving any rules text that say that trigger and cast is the same.

    The fact that all of the crafting section says the spell slots are expended "as if the spell was cast", as homie said above me, should be literally all the proof you need that the spell isnt being cast. Because if the spell being triggered was the spell being cast, it would say somehing along the lines of "the spell slot is still consumed normally". Instead, it shows the literally only way that trigger and cast are similar, which is that a slot gets burned


    Long story short: just because casting a spell is the most common way you use a spell, doesnt mean every other way you use a spell is just a different way to "cast" a spell. Crafting rule doesnt "alter" casting rule, its just a different set of rules for using spells in general




    Does anyone else have a more concise way to explain this concept?
    1. Spell Trigger
    Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
    The rule describes how can use/activate spells from spell trigger items. It alters the rules how a spell is normally cast (activated). Changing the general rules for its niche.

    2. SLA
    A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
    SLA change the way a spell is cast for its niche.

    3. Grafting
    The crafting feats all make us of the word "trigger". And ,as in the chase of "spell trigger" items, it shows how they alter the way a spell would be normally cast.



    All of them are worded in a way that they alter the rules how a spell is regular "cast" (confirming "cast" as general rule).

    None of em makes a specific call out "to not count as cast anymore". As such, the may be using just altered cast rules, but they are still "altered cast rules".

    Warlocks also accept that casting a spell is the general rule and alters the general rule directly for their niche (specific). Since they can roll UMD to appear "..as if he had cast the required spell.", they also appear to have fulfilled the required (altered) component rules for casting a spell (since those are part of the spell casting rules).

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    The Primary Source Rule demands that anything has either to obey the general rules or make specific exceptions for their niche. If you agree that casting a spell is the most common way to use/activate a spell, you agreed that this is the general rule that the Primary Source dictates. As such anything that makes use of spells have to either follow the general cast rules or can makes specific exceptions/changes to them for their niche.
    No, the primary source rule just tells you what to refer to if one thing contradicts another. What im saying isnt a contradiction to a rule. Me agreeing that casting a spell is the more common use for spells doesn't mean that the first thing you look at whenever a spell is used in any way is the casting rules. Youre acting like this is the alter self chain, where casting rules are alter self, and crafting rules are polymorph where it " crafting a magic item works like casting except as follows" which is clearly not the case.

    Instead, spells are their own thing. There are many ways to use spells. You either cast them, and use the casting rules because youre casting them, use a spell-like ability or supernatural ability that mimics the spell but still doesnt cast the spell which is admittedly the only that comes close to actually fallong in line with your arguement, or you craft a magic item that contains the spell in some way, where you have to have the spell either known or prepared during which no casting is said to occur anywhere. You dont have to infer when a spell os being cast, the rules literally will always tell you when it is, or if something else entirely is happening




    1. Spell Trigger

    The rule describes how can use/activate spells from spell trigger items. It alters the rules how a spell is normally cast (activated). Changing the general rules for its niche.
    [/quote]

    Yes, the rules describe how you activate magic items that then produce a spell.
    Activating magic item does not mean spell being cast. Only spellcasters cast spells

    2. SLA

    SLA change the way a spell is cast for its niche.
    This is the only thing your very close to right about.
    The spell like abilities mimic spells and alter the requirements for producing the effects, but they still dont cast a spell because casting a spell is defined as a specific thing

    3. Grafting
    The crafting feats all make us of the word "trigger". And ,as in the chase of "spell trigger" items, it shows how they alter the way a spell would be normally cast.

    All of them are worded in a way that they alter the rules how a spell is regular "cast" (confirming "cast" as general rule).
    They do say trigger. If they meant cast, it would say cast instead. It would actually probably say you cast it, except with these changes. The way they are worded, they say absolutely nothing about how the spell is cast because they dont cast spells. Different items are activated through different methods to produce different effects, some of those effecrs being spells

    None of em makes a specific call out "to not count as cast anymore". As such, the may be using just altered cast rules, but they are still "altered cast rules".
    They dont have to because its obvious and explicitly spelled out in plain words that you are not casting a spell, you are instead triggering it during the crafting process. The rules dont have to say you arent doing something, the rules have to tell you what you are doing. And can you point to me what the rules say? Trigger. Trigger does not mean cast, nor is it just "altered cast" because nothing says it is


    Warlocks also accept that casting a spell is the general rule and alters the general rule directly for their niche (specific). Since they can roll UMD to appear "..as if he had cast the required spell.", they also appear to have fulfilled the required (altered) component rules for casting a spell (since those are part of the spell casting rules).
    Warlock is literally the only thing ever to say that casting would occur. And guess what? Due to the primary source for crafting saying that you trigger spells and dont cast them, it shows a contradiction and therefor does not matter, which soneone else alreadu pointed out to you but you seemed to have ignored



    Is there any better way to put this?
    Last edited by Raishoiken; 2021-03-01 at 08:53 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    No, the primary source rule just tells you what to refer to if one thing contradicts another. What im saying isnt a contradiction to a rule. Me agreeing that casting a spell is the more common use for spells doesn't mean that the first thing you look at whenever a spell is used in any way is the casting rules. Youre acting like this is the alter self chain, where casting rules are alter self, and crafting rules are polymorph where it " crafting a magic item works like casting except as follows" which is clearly not the case.
    No, I'm acting like how the Primary Source Rule (PSR) enforces me to do. I've shown that the PSR states that the PHB is to be considered the primary source for the (basic) rules needed to play the game. Spells are within the domain of the PHB. And this primary source sets casting as the primary (general) way to use/activate spells. Anything else has either to obey these rules or make specific exceptions for its own niche. Specific trumps General is as said a byproduct of the PSR, because this is the conclusion what thrives from the PSR. If everything has to follow the primary source, you can only call out specific exceptions for niches.

    Unless the crafting feats explicitly call out to ignore that a spell has to be cast or that it doesn't "count" as a cast anymore, it still only alters the casting rules.

    Instead, spells are their own thing. There are many ways to use spells. You either cast them, and use the casting rules because youre casting them, use a spell-like ability or supernatural ability that mimics the spell but still doesnt cast the spell which is admittedly the only that comes close to actually fallong in line with your arguement, or you craft a magic item that contains the spell in some way, where you have to have the spell either known or prepared during which no casting is said to occur anywhere. You dont have to infer when a spell os being cast, the rules literally will always tell you when it is, or if something else entirely is happening




    Yes, the rules describe how you activate magic items that then produce a spell.
    Activating magic item does not mean spell being cast. Only spellcasters cast spells



    This is the only thing your very close to right about.
    The spell like abilities mimic spells and alter the requirements for producing the effects, but they still dont cast a spell because casting a spell is defined as a specific thing



    They do say trigger. If they meant cast, it would say cast instead. It would actually probably say you cast it, except with these changes. The way they are worded, they say absolutely nothing about how the spell is cast because they dont cast spells. Different items are activated through different methods to produce different effects, some of those effecrs being spells


    They dont have to because its obvious and explicitly spelled out in plain words that you are not casting a spell, you are instead triggering it during the crafting process. The rules dont have to say you arent doing something, the rules have to tell you what you are doing. And can you point to me what the rules say? Trigger. Trigger does not mean cast, nor is it just "altered cast" because nothing says it is
    I've shown how anything that makes use of spells alters the casting process to their needs. None of em call out that they are not casts anymore. All describe changes in a way that lets you assume that "casting" is the primary/general way to use/activate spells. You still have to failed to provide any proof that crafting may ignore the general casting rules.

    Warlock is literally the only thing ever to say that casting would occur. And guess what? Due to the primary source for crafting saying that you trigger spells and dont cast them, it shows a contradiction and therefor does not matter, which soneone else alreadu pointed out to you but you seemed to have ignored



    Is there any better way to put this?
    Warlocks are simple by design. Compared to other full casters they have lesser things that bothers them (e.g. resource management).
    As such, imho it is only natural that they keep the crafting process for warlocks also simple. By faking a required spell cast for crafting, you can bypass any altered spell cast rules for crafting. It is that simple.

    If I would follow your interpretation, I would first have to ignore that the PSR directs me to the PHB for the general rules to use spells (Casting). Then ignore that anything that makes use of spells alter the casting rules. Finally I would be left with a dysfunctional warlock ability, since crafting does not make use of "spell casts".
    Ignoring the PSR while also causing dysfunction doesn't look so appealing to me, if we have an interpretation that doesn't cause these problems. It leads to a cheesy ability that pumps warlock to T1-2 at best. At the cost of wealth (to craft), with slightly better wealth-o-mancy to compensate for that at the same time.
    While this is a strong abuse able ability, it's on the same sanity lvl as other T1-2 classes (broken at best, but not game breaking unless you overuse it^^).

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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    No, I'm acting like how the Primary Source Rule (PSR) enforces me to do. I've shown that the PSR states that the PHB is to be considered the primary source for the (basic) rules needed to play the game. Spells are within the domain of the PHB. And this primary source sets casting as the primary (general) way to use/activate spells. Anything else has either to obey these rules or make specific exceptions for its own niche. Specific trumps General is as said a byproduct of the PSR, because this is the conclusion what thrives from the PSR. If everything has to follow the primary source, you can only call out specific exceptions for niches.

    Unless the crafting feats explicitly call out to ignore that a spell has to be cast or that it doesn't "count" as a cast anymore, it still only alters the casting rules.
    If you were paying attention you would see that when the dmg says you trigger instead of cast that that is the specific exception you keep talking about, if one even was ever needed.

    More than one person has pointed out how you are wrong about this.
    The fact that you are simply circularly repeating the same thing without truly addressing, or more likely not truly understanding, what im saying tells me that this is the end of our conversation, it is going nowhere. Get anyone else to agree with you and then we'll talk. The fact that you are the literal only person who has participated in this conversation with your viewpoint stance at the moment should be telling for you
    Last edited by Raishoiken; 2021-03-02 at 02:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    If you were paying attention you would see that when the dmg says you trigger instead of cast that that is the specific exception you keep talking about, if one even was ever needed.

    More than one person has pointed out how you are wrong about this.
    The fact that you are simply circularly repeating the same thing without truly addressing, or more likely not truly understanding, what im saying tells me that this is the end of our conversation, it is going nowhere. Get anyone else to agree with you and then we'll talk. The fact that you are the literal only person who has participated in this conversation with your viewpoint stance at the moment should be telling for you
    It describes only changes to the regular cast, by being passively triggered (and in some chases altered material component rules). It never explicitly calls out that it changes the cast into something else. It only tells you how some parts of the cast are altered. But they are still spell casting rules. Same can be said about SLAs, they call out all changes to the cast (e.g. Components: V,S,M,F). Crafting feats do the same. They make changes to the regular casting rules without any indicator that it wouldn't be any cast anymore. There is no explicit permission to do so.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    It describes only changes to the regular cast, by being passively triggered (and in some chases altered material component rules). It never explicitly calls out that it changes the cast into something else. It only tells you how some parts of the cast are altered. But they are still spell casting rules. Same can be said about SLAs, they call out all changes to the cast (e.g. Components: V,S,M,F). Crafting feats do the same. They make changes to the regular casting rules without any indicator that it wouldn't be any cast anymore. There is no explicit permission to do so.

    Somehow i think you're just ignoring certain points by now. Not everything to do with spells is an "altered cast". The "casting a spell" rules are not a base template that is then tweaked a little bit, as you are suggesting There is literally no proof for it. The "primary source rule" shtick you keep trying does not work because it does not apply here. There are no rules contradictions, and also yes, the book LITERALLY says that you are doing something that is not casting. You seem to be confused, thinking that the book has to say the words "you are not casting this spell" in order for you not to be casting when it literally says in several places that the thing you are doing is not casting. The book doesn't say you are casting it, but in a different way, and it has to say that in order for you to be right. The rules have to tell you what you are doing, they don't expect you to do the mental gymnastics you are doing just to be right.

    Another way to look at it is that you literally have to make a bunch of assumptions in order to reach your conclusion
    you not only have to assume that trigger means casting
    you ALSO have to assume that trigger means casting EVEN THOUGH the book literally tells you in plain words that you are, in fact, not casting.

    Where as if you're simply reading the rules as they are presented, you have to make exactly 0 assumptions. You just read that the book says you trigger the spell by working on the item, and you need to pay attention closely and see that it tells you in plain words that you aren't casting the spell you're just expending a slot "as if" you were casting it


    You have to make 0 assumptions to come to the conclusion that you are not casting the spell, and you have to make 2 assumptions at the very least to think that you are casting the spell. One of the assumptions you are making to reach your conclusion is completely ignoring rules text.

    Your arguement is circular. You start with the "assumption" that any thing that uses spells is casting a spell some how and the rules never say this is the case. It's just the more common use for them. It isn't the "primary rule" for spells, the primary rules for how a spell works is in the spell description. The "casting a spell" section is the primary rule for when you cast a spell. The crafting section never ever says you cast the spell, nor does it have to call out that you aren't casting a spell (even though uh. it literally tells you that you dont)

    Are you perhaps trolling for fun or do you still somehow believe this stance? Because using your stance i could counter spell anyone who is crafting a magic item and ruin the creation process, and counter spell scrolls and wands and staves when they produce their spell effects. Y'know, since it doesn't say that you can't

    So once again, unless literally any other person can find a better way to explain your side or even to just agree with any point of your argument, you should probably stop pretending like you're using the "primary source" argument correctly.
    In fact, we can make a whole separate thread asking this exact question just to continue to prove it. Because surely if you're right more people than not will agree with you, right? Since most people here have a pretty decent grasp of the english language they should be able to come just as easily to your conclusion as you do if you're correct. Does that sound like a bad way to determine which one of us is correct seeing as how apparently we are not ever going to agree? This way we can figure out which one of us is playing the game "wrong"
    Last edited by Raishoiken; 2021-03-03 at 03:06 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    Somehow i think you're just ignoring certain points by now. Not everything to do with spells is an "altered cast". The "casting a spell" rules are not a base template that is then tweaked a little bit, as you are suggesting There is literally no proof for it. The "primary source rule" shtick you keep trying does not work because it does not apply here. There are no rules contradictions, and also yes, the book LITERALLY says that you are doing something that is not casting. You seem to be confused, thinking that the book has to say the words "you are not casting this spell" in order for you not to be casting when it literally says in several places that the thing you are doing is not casting. The book doesn't say you are casting it, but in a different way, and it has to say that in order for you to be right. The rules have to tell you what you are doing, they don't expect you to do the mental gymnastics you are doing just to be right.

    ...
    You are still ignoring the territories the Primary Source Rule sets:
    Quote Originally Posted by Primary Source Rule
    ... The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. ...
    "Casting a Spell" sets a general rule when you want to use spells. And there are only 2 options that can alter this:
    a) mentioning an explicit rule change/update that is like Rules Compendium, Draconomicon or Errata as examples.
    b) make explicit call outs for specific rules that only apply in a niche
    If you want to use Spells in any way, the "Casting a Spell" rule is the gatekeeper. SLAs alter the component (V,S,M,F,XP) rules. Spell trigger items do the same. And crafting is in no way special worded that it denies the status that a spell cast is triggered here. It doesn't need to mention that it is still a spell cast. PSR demands that it needs to deny it clearly to make your interpretation plausible.

    I'll try to give a real life "light switch" example here for "trigger":
    Imagine a light switch (cast) for a light bulb (spell) that you can use actively as "normal" (general) and that can also be "triggered" passively (specific) via the daylight (when it becomes dark).
    Unless the "trigger" has some special functions (explicit specific exceptions), you expect the switch to work as intended.
    It is still "triggering" the light switch (cast) that activates the light bulb (spell).

    As said, a trigger only does what you would normally expect as outcome, unless specific exceptions are called out (and build in^^). And so far the crafting rules only show how parts of "casting a spell" gets altered, but it never denies its status as spell cast. And it doesn't define a new status either. There is no explicit mentioning of that (or did I miss any crafting specific definition paragraph about "trigger" anywhere? kindly asking here).

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    You are still ignoring the territories the Primary Source Rule sets:

    "Casting a Spell" sets a general rule when you want to use spells. And there are only 2 options that can alter this:
    a) mentioning an explicit rule change/update that is like Rules Compendium, Draconomicon or Errata as examples.
    b) make explicit call outs for specific rules that only apply in a niche
    If you want to use Spells in any way, the "Casting a Spell" rule is the gatekeeper. SLAs alter the component (V,S,M,F,XP) rules. Spell trigger items do the same. And crafting is in no way special worded that it denies the status that a spell cast is triggered here. It doesn't need to mention that it is still a spell cast. PSR demands that it needs to deny it clearly to make your interpretation plausible.

    I'll try to give a real life "light switch" example here for "trigger":
    Imagine a light switch (cast) for a light bulb (spell) that you can use actively as "normal" (general) and that can also be "triggered" passively (specific) via the daylight (when it becomes dark).
    Unless the "trigger" has some special functions (explicit specific exceptions), you expect the switch to work as intended.
    It is still "triggering" the light switch (cast) that activates the light bulb (spell).

    As said, a trigger only does what you would normally expect as outcome, unless specific exceptions are called out (and build in^^). And so far the crafting rules only show how parts of "casting a spell" gets altered, but it never denies its status as spell cast. And it doesn't define a new status either. There is no explicit mentioning of that (or did I miss any crafting specific definition paragraph about "trigger" anywhere? kindly asking here).

    No im not ignoring the primary rules, you're misunderstanding how to use that phrase. Casting a spell ia not the "gatekeeper" ruleset if you want to use spells in anyway. It only is in your mind for some reason. Check the other thread m8 because you keep saying the same stuff without actually addressing what I've said about it

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