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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Is Create Homomculus overpriced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    DM caveat is the short answer. As a primarily non-combat spell, it allows the injection of a powerful character for story purposes without the side effects of a full strength dose of DMPC wizard.

    I can imagine a host of answers to "why," but I don't think you'll be satisfied by my take. I simply accept that not everything created by the developers is useful or a good idea. I must've played through Earthbound a dozen times, and while I'm sure I always completed the side quest to return the contact lense to the dude in the bakery, I can't remember ever using the reward. It was similar with the Biggoron Sword, and countless other items/techniques/unlockables - many things exist in games for no other purpose than to be an interesting option, and the only real enticement is that they're locked behind a higher level or specific achievement. I find that to be the case with at least a quarter of the spells in D&D, and, based on my video-game-derived prior experience, those are the ones that perhaps ought to be dangled in front of the players like a carrot to chase and acquire, then decide the worthiness for themselves. The difference is that with tabletop, the freedom exists to "alter the code" each playthrough, so that if you and the DM can imagine it, you may choose to either improve and strengthen the spell or press up, up, down, down, etc. to access it at an earlier stage.
    A valid position. In my group, when I'm DMing, the players have the potential to do whatever weird and wild thing the NPCs can pull off. The players know this. The players also know that the greater the ability the greater the cost, and the kind of things they are working to stop from happening when the enemy does it have a cost associated with them that only a completely crazy psychopath would be willing to do.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

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    Jan 2006
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    Default Re: Is Create Homomculus overpriced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    DM caveat is the short answer. As a primarily non-combat spell, it allows the injection of a powerful character for story purposes without the side effects of a full strength dose of DMPC wizard.

    I can imagine a host of answers to "why," but I don't think you'll be satisfied by my take. I simply accept that not everything created by the developers is useful or a good idea. I must've played through Earthbound a dozen times, and while I'm sure I always completed the side quest to return the contact lense to the dude in the bakery, I can't remember ever using the reward. It was similar with the Biggoron Sword, and countless other items/techniques/unlockables - many things exist in games for no other purpose than to be an interesting option, and the only real enticement is that they're locked behind a higher level or specific achievement. I find that to be the case with at least a quarter of the spells in D&D, and, based on my video-game-derived prior experience, those are the ones that perhaps ought to be dangled in front of the players like a carrot to chase and acquire, then decide the worthiness for themselves. The difference is that with tabletop, the freedom exists to "alter the code" each playthrough, so that if you and the DM can imagine it, you may choose to either improve and strengthen the spell or press up, up, down, down, etc. to access it at an earlier stage.
    I've never played Earthbound, but I not only used the Biggoron Sword when I got it, but I went out of my way to get it before I finished the Fire Temple. (This means I partially-completed the Fire Temple and the Water Temple, did the Biggoron Sword quest, and then finished the Water Temple and the Fire Temple. I think even in that order; I mostly remember I only did the Fire Temple even part-way before doing the Water Temple because I needed the Megaton Hammer.) And then I used the Biggoron Sword unless I had to use the shield or master sword for specific purposes.

    I think one of the key elements I'm seeing people bring up over and over is "it's a second permanent summon for the wizard!" While true as written, I don't like it being restricted to the wizard any more than I like it being locked behind a level six spell. It's just not good enough to be worth a level six spell (even on a wizard who barely has to pay anything for access to such a spell when he hits level 11), and it certainly isn't iconically "a wizard feature" enough to be locked to just being a wizard-only thing. Heck, the Monster Manual entry doesn't even hint that only wizards can make them. It refers to "a rare ritual" and to "its creator." ...which is another thing: create homunculus isn't even a ritual spell, which means that it's not what the Monster Manual is talking about!

    ...Maybe that's how it should be set up: the ritual is, essentially, a rare magic item that permits the creation of the homunculus. Which may have its own costs (perhaps akin to crafting an uncommon magic item). The wizard spell would then be the slightly cheaper way of getting one, and give a boost in the form of being able to donate hp to it.


    As a side note, I still find it ironic that Necromancers can donate maximal hp to the homunculus every day because the rule doesn't say it gains however many hp you lose, but that it gains what you roll AND your maximum hp are reduced by that amount. Which means it gains the hp, and the Necromancer's maximum hp cannot be reduced.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Is Create Homomculus overpriced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I've never played Earthbound, but I not only used the Biggoron Sword when I got it, but I went out of my way to get it before I finished the Fire Temple. (This means I partially-completed the Fire Temple and the Water Temple, did the Biggoron Sword quest, and then finished the Water Temple and the Fire Temple. I think even in that order; I mostly remember I only did the Fire Temple even part-way before doing the Water Temple because I needed the Megaton Hammer.) And then I used the Biggoron Sword unless I had to use the shield or master sword for specific purposes.

    I think one of the key elements I'm seeing people bring up over and over is "it's a second permanent summon for the wizard!" While true as written, I don't like it being restricted to the wizard any more than I like it being locked behind a level six spell. It's just not good enough to be worth a level six spell (even on a wizard who barely has to pay anything for access to such a spell when he hits level 11), and it certainly isn't iconically "a wizard feature" enough to be locked to just being a wizard-only thing. Heck, the Monster Manual entry doesn't even hint that only wizards can make them. It refers to "a rare ritual" and to "its creator." ...which is another thing: create homunculus isn't even a ritual spell, which means that it's not what the Monster Manual is talking about!

    ...Maybe that's how it should be set up: the ritual is, essentially, a rare magic item that permits the creation of the homunculus. Which may have its own costs (perhaps akin to crafting an uncommon magic item). The wizard spell would then be the slightly cheaper way of getting one, and give a boost in the form of being able to donate hp to it.


    As a side note, I still find it ironic that Necromancers can donate maximal hp to the homunculus every day because the rule doesn't say it gains however many hp you lose, but that it gains what you roll AND your maximum hp are reduced by that amount. Which means it gains the hp, and the Necromancer's maximum hp cannot be reduced.
    Eh, I think the use of the spell/spell slot (which I would think would be done during a down time day most times) is just a short cut to let players be able to play with it. Could just as easily have been a magic item that the players find the formula to create.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

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