Arcane Trickster/Warlock Build

[virtualslayer22]

Looking for some guidance with my AT/Warlock build. We got to 5th level, so I am missing out on an extra attack due to my multi classing. This is fine with me to an extent, but I do feel limited in battle often since spellcasting doesn't allow you to do any sort of bonus action the majority of the time.

However, this has also allowed me to get more into battlefield control (grease, create bonfire, etc) which is actually pretty fun in and of itself. I have also become the face of the party due to my high CHA (+5), and the party utility monkey as well with my high SoH and Stealth. The invisible mage hand has also been dope.. Every session, our DM is always shaking his head because I pull some out of the box crap with all my trickster abilities in social situations. It's quite humorous to watch it unfold really.

Anyways, I have outlined a few options that I was considering taking with this level up, but would love some input and ideas from fresh minds and veterans who are not tunnel visioned like I seem to be at times with my characters.

Option 1: AT4/Lock1 - Choose a Feat
- Crossbow Expert Feat --> I already have two hand crossbows, so this could be loads of fun, minus the loading
- Defensive Duelist --> honestly this isn't a top choice, but getting a +3 bonus to AC as a reaction would be nice since I am rather squishy with an AC of only 16 and HP of 43 at Level 5
- Skill Expert --> this would be beneficial as I could gain proficiency and an expertise (probably Deception, Persuasion, or Investigation), and bump an ability score up 1

Option 2: AT3/Lock2
- 2 Eldritch Invocations (top 3 listed below)
- Devil’s Sight --> this would pair quite nicely with the Darkness spell I will now gain at level 5 as a Half Drow
- Beguiled Influence -->Prof in Deception and Persuasion which would bump each to +8
- Mask of Many Faces --> this would be incredible for me to use outside of combat when trying to get into or out of tricky situations

Option 3: AT4/Lock1: ASI Boost
-ASI: Bump Dex up to 20 --> AC17; +8 to all finesse weapon attacks; SoH & Stealth +11
-ASI: Bump Int up to 20 --> Spell Modifier +5, Spell Save 16; Spell Attack +8

Extra Info: My character is a half drow, patron is the Celestial, and I did not choose Eldritch Blast as a cantrip (long story short, the DM didn't want me to go "too evil" as I am a half drow and we already have a full Warlock in the group who spams Eldritch Blast a lot). Also, I do plan on going to Warlock 3 to get Pact of the Chain for a better familiar at some point.

Stats: 10, 18, 16, 18, 15, 20

I know there are other options that I am most likely missing or overlooking. I would love some input and guidance from any and all! Looking forward to your suggestions!

[runespoon]

As is currently at level 5, having only 1 level in warlock seems kinda odd to me. On one hand, it does give some skills/proficiencies, and it gives you 1 spell slot to regain on a short rest, however if you were to go full rouge instead would much truly be lost? What may help in giving better advice on current/future level splits between warlock and rouge is a brief synapsis of what the end game idea of the character is. perhaps some specific abilities in each class you would really like to have. Personally I find it easier to decide how to multiclass by deciding the split I want by the end of my characters career then working backwards. If you must have warlock levels, as it is right now I would recommend grabbing that 4th level of rouge, so that you get the ASI. Another good option if you are planning on going deep into warlock would be to grad that warlock 2 right now, since the additional pact slot and invocations are a pretty good boost.

[Verble]

I'd suggest getting the level in warlock and snagging mask of many faces. I made good use of this on my AT/Warlock.

I only did those two levels and went the rest in rogue as rogue just gives you something good at every level and more SA dice and Uncanny Dodge will help your survivability.

[JellyPooga]

1) 43hp at level 5 is not "squishy". You have Con:16 and I assume have taken the "average result" option, giving you slightly over-the-odds hp. A Fighter with the same Con and choice not to roll hp would only have 49hp. You may want to revisit your mental image of how resilient your character is!

2) Warlock. Level 1 is decidedly lacklustre. Level 2 is full of gooodies! You double your short rest spell slots and pick up Invocations. Easily worth delaying a Feat or ASI for.

3) Invocations.

- [b]Devils Sight. Don't get me wrong, this is very good paired with your Racial Darkness...BUT it's a gimmick that a) you have to be careful with around your friends and b) you're only using once per long rest. Worth sepnding an entire Invocation slot on? Bear in mind that as a multiclass Warlock, you may only be getting a small handful of these and with racial Darkvision, you don't require it to fight in regular darkness. Further, you also have Dancing Lights and Faerie Fire which also improve your ability to function in the dark.

With that said, the extended benefit of Devils Sight for you is that it lets you see normally in darkness; no disadvantage on Perception checks in the effective dim light that Darkvision offers. If you have or obtain Superior Darkvision (120ft), you may be better served picking up the Skulker Feat if you want this benefit instead. Probably worth looking at Skulker anyway; it's a solid Feat. It's also worth picking up on the fact that the dim light offered by your racial Dancing Lights counts as bright light with your Darkvision. Think about it.

- Mask of Many Faces. If your game has a high social and/or intrigue element to it, this is golden combined with Expertise in Deception and/or the Actor Feat. If not...it's a bit of a hard pass due to niche use. Consider carefully just how often you'll actually get to use it and whether you might be better served taking Disguise Self as a spell known or seeking out a Hat of Disguise or a couple of scrolls(/potions?) instead. Or, y'know, a Disguise Kit. This one feels amazing in theory, but in actual play...eh, there are better options.

- Beguiling Influence. Just take a Feat if you want skill proficiencies. Don't waste an Invocation.

- Misty Visions. This is solid gold for a tricksy, clever, roguish type and if you're getting baller uses out of Mage Hand Legerdemain, I'm sure you find all sort of uses for Silent Image at-will. Worth discussing with your GM as to what limitations they might put on creative use here before taking it, but definitely get it in the "This could be a top pick" bucket because you'll be able to use it in virtually every pillar of play.

- Eldritch Sight. While it doesn't seem that exciting, having Detect Magic at your fingertips is remarkably useful. Yes, it's a ritual, meaning any Wizard can use it without expending slots, but that takes time. Being able to ping up DM at a moments notice can literally save your life and saves a whole heap of time otherwise. This is an oft underrated Invocation IMO.

[da newt]

A few random thoughts:

2 hand crossbows do not offer you anything more than one hand crossbow. They require a free hand to load (and unless you home brew something, you can't walk around with a loaded hand crossbow on your hip like a revolver).

Are you primarily a ranged attacker or melee?

"I do feel limited in battle often since spellcasting doesn't allow you to do any sort of bonus action the majority of the time." - You are a rogue. You BA every turn using cunning action. If you aren't, you are doing something wrong.

Hex is nice and the DISADV on one ability check can be really handy for a clever rogue.

+2 INT is a waste of an ASI. Take DEX.

Elvin Accuracy and Revenent Blade are other good feat options.

Armor of Shadows goes well with 20 DEX for AC. Mask of Many faces allows SOOO many shenanigans.

[Keravath]

Your stats are amazing which opens up room for feats.

You are an AT rogue - is your plan to be primarily a rogue? AT Rogues are a lot of fun.

With 20 charisma already - you would probably be a better warlock than the other one in the party unless they also have 20 charisma so to avoid stepping on those toes you would probably want to focus on weapon attacks using dex - either finesse or ranged.

If you want to succeed using sneak attack as many turns as possible then you need to get advantage on your attack rolls. Some possibilities include
- help action by a familiar
- hide as a bonus action + ranged attack
- darkness+devils sight

Devils sight has the added benefit of avoiding disadvantage on perception checks in darkness so you can find and disable traps in complete darkness as if it was brightly lit - even with your mage hand.

Given the stats, you may be playing in a high magic campaign so magical weapons may not be an issue. However, if magic weapons could be a problem - especially a hand crossbow or other ranged weapon - then blade pact warlock is worth considering for the improved pact weapon invocation which gives you a +1 magical weapon that can be pretty much anything you need. This is especially true since the AT rogue can take the find familiar spell at 3rd level. The chain pact familiars are a bit of an upgrade but an owl with flyby or a bat if you need blindsight provide 80% of the benefits of the chain pact familiars. This also leaves the option of taking warlock to level 5 and picking up thirsting blade for 2 attacks which increase the likelihood of landing sneak attack. (Also what pact is the other warlock in the party since that may affect your decision? I'm guessing tome if they are using eldritch blast a lot).

Given your charisma, you will likely want to pick up proficiency in persuasion at some point either via the invocation or the feat.

Another good feat would be inspiring leader given your high charisma.

If your game has a lot of social elements then the mask of many faces invocation can be awesome. However, you don't seem to have proficiency in either persuasion or deception which would both be useful if you want to build this type of character.

Overall, I think you need to decide whether you want to focus on your out of combat vs in combat abiltiies. If you want out of combat then I would go warlock 2 and pick up devils sight and mask of many faces and then get proficiency or even expertise in persuasion using the feat (prodigy or skill expert or skilled) at level 4 AT. 18 dex is fine for weapon attacks at that level.

P.S. An AT doesn't need 20 int so that isn't a good use of an ASI (they don't have access to enough spells that can use the extra +1 DC very efficiently - almost any other choice of feat or stat boost is better).

[virtualslayer22]

Extra Info: My character is a half drow, patron is the Celestial, and I did not choose Eldritch Blast as a cantrip (long story short, the DM didn't want me to go "too evil" as I am a half drow and we already have a full Warlock in the group who spams Eldritch Blast a lot). Also, I do plan on going to Warlock 3 to get Pact of the Chain for a better familiar at some point.

Stats: 10, 18, 16, 18, 15, 20

These responses are exactly what I came here for! Lots to tinker with, map out, and consider already.

I will add a few things to my extra info:
-I do have a familiar already that I utilize often. Between the barbarian and my familiar, I almost always have Adv for SA

-I would say that I primarily attack from range, but given that I do not have a bonus action *attack* option, I will begin to utilize disengage more often in battle to hit and move without AoO. I do carry a rapier and short sword, but I am often not in the fray as I skulk along the shadows or background a lot to avoid high damage given my low AC. But it is nice to know I'm not as squishy as I thought!

-My proficiencies are: Deception, Investigation, Perception, Persuasion, SoH, and Stealth (I did not realize Beguiling Influence would not stack and I mistyped my totals.. either way, this option is now moot.. hooray for me being a noob!)

-The other warlock is a Hexblade with 20 CHA as well, but he does not have the proficiencies that help in social situations

-I originally intended to be primarily rogue with finesse weapons and a ranged hand crossbow in combat, but my high stats/proficiencies led me to become a trickster in social settings

-Our campaign has a high rate of social/political interactions throughout it, which is why being AT has made things more fun

Hope this helps! All input so far is great! Thanks!

[Sorinth]

Warlock 2 for Mask of Many faces seems like the best fit for your character. It opens up even more opportunities for shenanigans which you and the table seem to enjoy.

For the other invocation, Devil's Sight is of course great, but if you are feeling squishy then Armor of Shadows or Fiendish Vigor might be worth looking at, remember you can swap out invocations when gaining a Warlock level so when they start being less impactful swap them out for something else.

[Segev]

I will second or third or whatever number that you can get the same benefit from a Hat of Disguise as from Mask of Many Faces. It is an uncommon magic item, making it relatively cheap and easy to find if you ever have a week or two of downtime.

[Sorinth]

The problem with a Hat of Disguise is that getting the item you "want" is very much DM/campaign dependent. It also takes up an attunement slot, how important that is will again be DM/campaign dependent.

Given the fact that you can swap invocations around it might make the most sense to grab Mask of Many Faces now and just swap it out if a Hat of Disguise actually shows up.

[Segev]

The problem with a Hat of Disguise is that getting the item you "want" is very much DM/campaign dependent. It also takes up an attunement slot, how important that is will again be DM/campaign dependent.

Given the fact that you can swap invocations around it might make the most sense to grab Mask of Many Faces now and just swap it out if a Hat of Disguise actually shows up.

It is DM dependent, but you can talk to your DM to determine if it's reasonable to expect to be able to find one and how much effort you should expect to have to put in to do so.

[JellyPooga]

Warlock 2 for Mask of Many faces seems like the best fit for your character. It opens up even more opportunities for shenanigans which you and the table seem to enjoy.

The problem with MoMF is that it's applicability is so limited. Granted, in niche/particular cases where you're playing an obviously monstrous or "always evil" Race (Lizardfolk, Orc, Drow, etc.) in a "classic" xenophobic game (as opposed to the all-inclusive metropolitan standard that 5e has) or you're a wanted criminal or basically anything that will be recognised and ostracised/penalised/attacked on sight and need a disguise to function in civilised society, yeah MoMF is great for that all-day magical disguise.

Otherwise...what exactly are the shenanigans you can pull that require or are even merely assisted by frequent, multiple times a day castings of Disguise Self, that you couldn't pull with, say, a scroll of the same spell? Or a decent Deception or Disguise Kit check?

The spell lasts an hour, so you've got a decent chunk of time to pull whatever stunt you want to pull and I can't imagine you're using it against people you want to build lasting relationships with (especially negative ones which are more likely to be scrutinised), because the longer a lie persists, the greater the chance it'll be uncovered. Particularly when illusions and limited duration spells are part of that lie (regardless of whether they can be used at-will).

On top of that, if a caper requires that you, personally, have more than two identities (your normal one and a fictional one) to pull it off or if you need to switch back and forth between disguises frequently enough that you'd need at-will casting...your plan is definitely in the "so convoluted it's probably a really bad, let's keep that on the backburner to be polite" bin.

Don't get me wrong, MoMF is invaluable when it's essential. Most of the time, though, it really feels like finding uses for something that's not really that useful. It's kind of like having a gold-plated crowbar; because you spent a lot of money, you want to use it for everything...but it's really just a crowbar:
"Hey a door! Let me get my crowbar." "Dude. It's not even locked and we have the key."
"Oh look, monsters! I'm-a hit one with my crowbar!" "What? You have a sword. Like, right there."
"Ok, we need to seduce the princess. Anyone got ideas?" "Hmm. Maybe I can leverage my crowbar in this situation?"
"How are we going to..." [interrupts] "Well I've got a crowb-" [cries of frustration] "ENOUGH with the crowbar already!"

[Sorinth]

The problem with MoMF is that it's applicability is so limited. Granted, in niche/particular cases where you're playing an obviously monstrous or "always evil" Race (Lizardfolk, Orc, Drow, etc.) in a "classic" xenophobic game (as opposed to the all-inclusive metropolitan standard that 5e has) or you're a wanted criminal or basically anything that will be recognised and ostracised/penalised/attacked on sight and need a disguise to function in civilised society, yeah MoMF is great for that all-day magical disguise.

How multicultural a game is has nothing to do with 5e. It's always DM/Campaign depdendent and has nothing to do with rules. And since the OP is Half-Drow it might be important.

Otherwise...what exactly are the shenanigans you can pull that require or are even merely assisted by frequent, multiple times a day castings of Disguise Self, that you couldn't pull with, say, a scroll of the same spell? Or a decent Deception or Disguise Kit check?

Using scrolls cost money so they aren't an option for frequent use, they domake sense if you plan on infrequent castings only. The disguise kit may also cost money if the DM rules there are a limited number of applications per kit, but the biggest downside of the disguise kit is the time it takes to make/remove a disguise. So things like being on the run and ducking down an alley, and casting Disguise Self to look like a beggar aren't possible nor would infiltrating a castle by first looking like a guard, then looking like a servant. Finding a quiet spot to re-cast is easy, finding a spot to use a disguise kit not so much.

Generally speaking Disguise Self is either going to avoid the need to make a check or make the check much easier to pass. Considering the OP mentioned the campaign has a high rate of social/political stuff going on the opportunities for using Disguise Self are probably endless, if the OP wants to make frequent use of those opportunities then Spell Slots/Disguise kit won't cut it.

The spell lasts an hour, so you've got a decent chunk of time to pull whatever stunt you want to pull and I can't imagine you're using it against people you want to build lasting relationships with (especially negative ones which are more likely to be scrutinised), because the longer a lie persists, the greater the chance it'll be uncovered. Particularly when illusions and limited duration spells are part of that lie (regardless of whether they can be used at-will).

On top of that, if a caper requires that you, personally, have more than two identities (your normal one and a fictional one) to pull it off or if you need to switch back and forth between disguises frequently enough that you'd need at-will casting...your plan is definitely in the "so convoluted it's probably a really bad, let's keep that on the backburner to be polite" bin.

Don't get me wrong, MoMF is invaluable when it's essential. Most of the time, though, it really feels like finding uses for something that's not really that useful. It's kind of like having a gold-plated crowbar; because you spent a lot of money, you want to use it for everything...but it's really just a crowbar:
"Hey a door! Let me get my crowbar." "Dude. It's not even locked and we have the key."
"Oh look, monsters! I'm-a hit one with my crowbar!" "What? You have a sword. Like, right there."
"Ok, we need to seduce the princess. Anyone got ideas?" "Hmm. Maybe I can leverage my crowbar in this situation?"
"How are we going to..." [interrupts] "Well I've got a crowb-" [cries of frustration] "ENOUGH with the crowbar already!"

Don't forget you don't need to have frequent uses per day in order for MoMF to be better then simply knowing the Disguise Self spell and casting as needed because even a single use of hard casting Disguise Self is one less spell slot that could be used for something else. And resorting to scrolls is not the best use of money, especially at lower levels.

I find it's the opposite of the crowbar, there are so many opportunities for doing something useful with MoMF that it creates out of game problems from over use since it's often a solo thing. So the MoMF player can take over the game and leave the rest of party watching.

[Keravath]

The advantage of Mask of Many Faces vs the Disguise Self spell or scrolls is the unlimited usage with no resource cost.

Literally, you can look like someone else every 6 seconds. Steal something, duck around a corner, be someone else. Interact with a creature socially looking like one person, step away for a second, be someone else.

Deception plays a huge roll in this.

Approach a guard post as a guard, enter the castle, switch to looking like a serving girl and enter the kitchen, switch to a busboy and head upstairs, switch to a minor noble richly dressed and a bit drunk and go up to a rooms. Change to looking like a specific noble and impersonate them (Actor feat really helps here). Honestly, being able to look like anyone and change it every 6 seconds can work wonders in any sort of infiltration scenario.

You can also change yourself to look like the boss you just killed and order his followers to look in the wrong direction for your party.

If you only have a few castings and each uses a spell slot, it means you can't use any of your other spells when you need them since you need the slots for disguise self - or you give up disguise self and cast something else.

The spell works fine for one off, planned infiltrations that will take an hour or less where you can get away with a single disguise (or looking like yourself) but it has limits where casting at will does not. (e.g. if you want to use disguise self for a 6 hour dinner party and evening gathering - you have a problem if you need spell slots or scrolls).

[Sorinth]

It is DM dependent, but you can talk to your DM to determine if it's reasonable to expect to be able to find one and how much effort you should expect to have to put in to do so.

Sure, but if the DM is open to making the items you want available then wouldn't it make more sense to push for a different uncommon magic item like Cloak of Elvenkind?

[JellyPooga]

How multicultural a game is has nothing to do with 5e.

Basically every supplement after SCAG disagrees with you by including a slew of additional playable Races. Yes, I accept that the specific game, GM and other players have a much greater influence than the rules offered, but the options presented (i.e. the bajillion weird and wonderful races to choose from) do suggest a certain standard. The OP may be a Half-Drow, but they've got to lvl.5 without Disguise Self. Whatever problems they've faced because of their heritage, if any, they've learned to deal with them already.

So things like being on the run and ducking down an alley, and casting Disguise Self to look like a beggar aren't possible nor would infiltrating a castle by first looking like a guard, then looking like a servant. Finding a quiet spot to re-cast is easy, finding a spot to use a disguise kit not so much.

The thing is; how often are you actually doing this kind of thing in actual play? You mention it yourself that if you force the issue and make as much use as possible, it often results in out-of-character game issues due to solo vs. party play being out of whack. That's not MoMF having infinite applicability. It's a problem. It's exactly like my gold-plated crowbar; as I hint at, using it too much just irritates everyone else because in part, your choice to continually use your ability leaves them out of the picture. The other part is that more often than not, a crowbar (or MoMF) is simply not the best tool for the job. The opportunities to use MoMF are just as frequent as my crowbar, but are equally frequently just as tenuous; as much an excuse to make the ability appear more valuable than it is, as it is an actually useful tool.

Approach a guard post as a guard, enter the castle, switch to looking like a serving girl and enter the kitchen, switch to a busboy and head upstairs, switch to a minor noble richly dressed and a bit drunk and go up to a rooms. Change to looking like a specific noble and impersonate them (Actor feat really helps here). Honestly, being able to look like anyone and change it every 6 seconds can work wonders in any sort of infiltration scenario.

You can also change yourself to look like the boss you just killed and order his followers to look in the wrong direction for your party.

Again, how often are you pulling this kind of thing off? Once an in-game day? Once a session? Once in an adventure or campaign? A feature that you use once is better off being a disposable resource than a re-usable asset.

[Sorinth]

Basically every supplement after SCAG disagrees with you by including a slew of additional playable Races. Yes, I accept that the specific game, GM and other players have a much greater influence than the rules offered, but the options presented (i.e. the bajillion weird and wonderful races to choose from) do suggest a certain standard. The OP may be a Half-Drow, but they've got to lvl.5 without Disguise Self. Whatever problems they've faced because of their heritage, if any, they've learned to deal with them already.

Well even back in 2nd edition there was Complete Book of Humanoids that had something like 20+ monstrous race options. 3rd had Savage Species, etc...

Having classical monsters as PCs has been a part of D&D for a long time and has nothing to do with 5e.

The thing is; how often are you actually doing this kind of thing in actual play? You mention it yourself that if you force the issue and make as much use as possible, it often results in out-of-character game issues due to solo vs. party play being out of whack. That's not MoMF having infinite applicability. It's a problem. It's exactly like my gold-plated crowbar; as I hint at, using it too much just irritates everyone else because in part, your choice to continually use your ability leaves them out of the picture. The other part is that more often than not, a crowbar (or MoMF) is simply not the best tool for the job. The opportunities to use MoMF are just as frequent as my crowbar, but are equally frequently just as tenuous; as much an excuse to make the ability appear more valuable than it is, as it is an actually useful tool.

The crowbar example is bad because you listed a bunch of examples where a crowbar wasn't useful. Disguise Self has the opposite problem, it's always useful.

Again, how often are you pulling this kind of thing off? Once an in-game day? Once a session? Once in an adventure or campaign? A feature that you use once is better off being a disposable resource than a re-usable asset.

Well the OP mentioned the campaign is heavily into social/political aspects. So the answer to how often it would be useful is probably a lot.

[JellyPooga]

The crowbar example is bad because you listed a bunch of examples where a crowbar wasn't useful. Disguise Self has the opposite problem, it's always useful.

Always? Really?

I'd be impressed if you could name three connected, but discrete scenarios in which an independent cast of Disguise Self was useful, let alone critical to success. Let alone a day or more worth of encounters to justify that claim. Particularly in a campaign with heavy social focus where diverse social encounters are going to be the norm, rather than ones easily solved by rinse/repeating a well-used feature.

[virtualslayer22]

I see both sides of this conversation on MoMF. Poogba brought up a good point with the isolation of my group and splitting off, as well as how often I will be in situations like this. I guess the way I view MoMF is that it will allow my character to make more decisions that may result in shenanigans with an out.

As for issues arising due to being a half-drow, I actually do already own a disguise kit that has helped keep us from encountering a ton of issues. But we just made it to the capitol city in our campaign, and it's already stirring up some distrust and issues with initial encounters/earning trust from new NPC's. Luckily, our DM is relatively forgiving as he himself doesn't always remember to make it an issue, but the more that I create in game shenanigans, the more he will brings it up.

Tbh, I love to find ways to challenge the constructs of the game and think outside of the box with new approaches to things (think Jackie Chan in a fist fight..everything around him is fair game to utilize to his advantage...I try to be this way with my character both in and out of battle - It truly makes the game more expansive, rather than limited by what my player sheet says I can do. It's made the game much more fun for the entire group too, as it has helped show them how they can think outside of the box with their characters. BUT our DM loves to find ways to create hurdles to my shenanigans as they often can put him on the spot or break the encounter. During a gambling situation, I used my invisible mage hand to "load the dice" to always turn up in my favor. He ended the gambling in two rounds because he knew there wasn't much of a way to un-break this scenario.

With all this being said, I would not mind trying to obtain Hat of Disguise while we are in the capitol city to free up an invocation slot. My background is Charlatan, largely due to my heritage, so I have a false identity with documents. MoMF/HoD would pair very well with this and cut down on the time it takes to disguise myself. But I truly don't know if he would be open to telling me how readily available an item like HoD would be. But I will be trying to seek out a magic shop in the next session

Hope this helps shed some more light on things as well. This thread is good and is really making me think. Appreciate all the different input and angles from everyone so far

[Sorinth]

Always? Really?

I'd be impressed if you could name three connected, but discrete scenarios in which an independent cast of Disguise Self was useful, let alone critical to success. Let alone a day or more worth of encounters to justify that claim. Particularly in a campaign with heavy social focus where diverse social encounters are going to be the norm, rather than ones easily solved by rinse/repeating a well-used feature.

If any spell is critical it would be bad game design. There should never be a situation where there's only one path to success. I'd also point out the OP has been having a ton of fun using Mage Hand in social situations, so unlimited Disguise Self is certainly something they would be interested in because it opens up even more opportunities.

@Keravath already gave you a situation where they would use 3 independent cast of Disguise Self. What would giving more examples prove?

[solidork]

I want to give another recommendation for Eldritch Sight. It's been unimaginably useful on my Eldritch Knight/Warlock, for spotting important treasure obviously but also illusions and traps.

In my game, a lot of the time our GM will describe something and it'll have a weird vibe and we have to wonder "Is this actually dangerous/magical?" and my Warlock can just immediately answer that question. Rituals exist (I even have it myself) but the ability to do it immediately and not have to take a 10 minute break every time it comes up is huge as far as game flow goes.

I just wanna say in general that mixing Short Rest and Long Rest casting like you are is a lot of fun! My character is all the way up to level 17 and even though I'm not slinging 9th level spells like some of my party, the sheer versatility of low level effects I can do because of all the cantrips (like 11) rituals (pact of the tome) and invocations means I can pull my weight.

[virtualslayer22]

I want to give another recommendation for Eldritch Sight. It's been unimaginably useful on my Eldritch Knight/Warlock, for spotting important treasure obviously but also illusions and traps.

In my game, a lot of the time our GM will describe something and it'll have a weird vibe and we have to wonder "Is this actually dangerous/magical?" and my Warlock can just immediately answer that question. Rituals exist (I even have it myself) but the ability to do it immediately and not have to take a 10 minute break every time it comes up is huge as far as game flow goes.

I just wanna say in general that mixing Short Rest and Long Rest casting like you are is a lot of fun! My character is all the way up to level 17 and even though I'm not slinging 9th level spells like some of my party, the sheer versatility of low level effects I can do because of all the cantrips (like 11) rituals (pact of the tome) and invocations means I can pull my weight.

I can't lie.. this is much more intriguing considering the fact that I could cast this every 10 min. If I'm milling about in a bar, my spider senses may alert me to some magical trinkets in pockets.. and with an invisible mage hand... well who better to pickpocket that a drunk? And being able to do this while disguised as someone completely random, or even someone we want to frame (so long as no one grabs me and realizes my outfit isn't quite right). I could for see quite a bit of skullduggery taking place.

But yes! Obviously, this would be beneficial to the group so we don't run into any traps or nefarious objects, esp if we are moving brashly. Plus, I just don't know how often I would use Darkness knowing I can only do it once a day.. Then Devil's Sight would just be useless the majority of the time

But with this being said, why not just take the feat Drow High Magic?

[JellyPooga]

But with this being said, why not just take the feat Drow High Magic?

If it's available to you, then yeah, Drow High Magic is a solid alternative to Eldritch Sight and probably the better option, pending other Feats/ASI you might want. The addition of both Dispel Magic and Levitate is super useful too, adding further resources to your repertoire. If you do spring for DHM, it might be worth going Rogue 4 before Warlock 2, because the primary argument for Warlock 2 is Invocations (one of which you're replicating with DHM) and additional spellcasting (which you are getting a 2nd and a 3rd level spell from DHM, compared to a single additional lvl.1 spell from Warlock).

@Keravath already gave you a situation where they would use 3 independent cast of Disguise Self. What would giving more examples prove?

Keravath gave us some independent scenarios, yes. I asked for connected ones that would justify having multiple uses in a day/succession. Granted, their "infiltration" case of guard->girl->busboy->noble is an example of multiple uses, but let's be real; four disguises is a bit of an exaggeration for the end goal of "impersonate a noble". Why bother with the girl and boy at all? Dress like a guard and bluff your way in (Deception check likely required to pass as a guard regardless of Disguise Self or not), then cast Disguise Self once to "quick change" into the Noble. Heck, just cast once to impersonate the Noble and stroll through the guard post; why impersonate lower ranks if you're end-goal is a higher one anyway? Further to this, even if you really do think four disguises is necessary for this infiltration, are you doing it or something similar again tomorrow? The next day?

As to your claim of "always useful", when is Disguise Self useful...
...fighting ogres? ("I hit it with my crowbar")
...searching for and disabling traps in a dungeon? ("I poke it with my crowbar." "I jam my crowbar in the mechanism and wreck it")
...crossing a ravine? ("I tie my rope to my crowbar and use it as a grappling hook" "I hook my crowbar over the rope and use it as a zipline")
...interacting honestly with someone? ("Check out my gold-plated crowbar. Feel the weight.")

I can't personally think of a case-use for Disguise Self in any of these or many other scenarios, which categorically proves your claim of "always" to be untrue. In the grand scheme of "common adventuring scenarios"...I think I'd rather have a crowbar and I'm pretty certain I can contrive much more frequent use out of it than I ever could Disguise Self.

[da newt]

MoMF is the sort of feat that you get out of it, what you put into it. If you lean into it and look for every opportunity to leverage it, it can be a hoot, but it doesn't break the game (like a shepherd druid can for example).

I played a MoMF Rogue dipped Chain-Fiend-lock that was disguised whenever he was awake - always a different race, sex, size (as much as you can), age, clothes, and almost always looked unarmed / non-threatening. He often posed as an innocent bystander, an escaping hostage, one of the enemy, the BBEG, a local authority, a statue, a child, etc and said ANYTHING that he thought would 'help' in the moment (expertise in deception). Combining this with an IMP accomplice and actively seeking opportunities to create confusion / chaos made the feat a defining character trait and very impactful. It was even very effective in combat as he would give orders to the foes, cry for help, pretend to be one of them, etc.

Is the feat more combat effective than repelling blast or eldritch smite? Nah, but it sure is fun.

And yes Jelly you are right - disguise self does no good at all when your party is alone with no one to interact with.

[Sorinth]

Keravath gave us some independent scenarios, yes. I asked for connected ones that would justify having multiple uses in a day/succession. Granted, their "infiltration" case of guard->girl->busboy->noble is an example of multiple uses, but let's be real; four disguises is a bit of an exaggeration for the end goal of "impersonate a noble". Why bother with the girl and boy at all? Dress like a guard and bluff your way in (Deception check likely required to pass as a guard regardless of Disguise Self or not), then cast Disguise Self once to "quick change" into the Noble. Heck, just cast once to impersonate the Noble and stroll through the guard post; why impersonate lower ranks if you're end-goal is a higher one anyway? Further to this, even if you really do think four disguises is necessary for this infiltration, are you doing it or something similar again tomorrow? The next day?

The answer is that different disguises will be out of place in the different situations. For example a noble using the servants entrance/staircase is going to be remarked upon. The proper disguise will lower if not eliminate the need for a deception check. And in a world where magic like Disguise Self or Charm Person is common enough then it's far more likely that the actual guards will be notified of people in areas where they don't really belong compared to the real world.

As to your claim of "always useful", when is Disguise Self useful...
...fighting ogres? ("I hit it with my crowbar")
...searching for and disabling traps in a dungeon? ("I poke it with my crowbar." "I jam my crowbar in the mechanism and wreck it")
...crossing a ravine? ("I tie my rope to my crowbar and use it as a grappling hook" "I hook my crowbar over the rope and use it as a zipline")
...interacting honestly with someone? ("Check out my gold-plated crowbar. Feel the weight.")

I can't personally think of a case-use for Disguise Self in any of these or many other scenarios, which categorically proves your claim of "always" to be untrue. In the grand scheme of "common adventuring scenarios"...I think I'd rather have a crowbar and I'm pretty certain I can contrive much more frequent use out of it than I ever could Disguise Self.

Do the Ogres have goblins working for them, if yes then a Disguise Self is a great way to scout the lair out and you could even get the Ogres to leave the lair by reporting about a caravan wreck carrying a chest of gold is outside and the ogres big strength is needed to bring it back. And now the party can ambush the ogres instead of fighting them in their lair.


Disguise Self is great at both information gathering and creating surprise. That's why it's always useful.

[solidork]

But yes! Obviously, this would be beneficial to the group so we don't run into any traps or nefarious objects, esp if we are moving brashly. Plus, I just don't know how often I would use Darkness knowing I can only do it once a day.. Then Devil's Sight would just be useless the majority of the time

But with this being said, why not just take the feat Drow High Magic?

I didn't actually know that Drow High Magic gave you at will Detect Magic! That is equally good for the same reasons.

As people have said before Devil's Sight isn't -only- useful in combination with magical Darkness. It also removes the disadvantage to perception while you're in natural darkness, meaning a +5 to passive perception.

I considered taking it on my Warlock for that reason, even though I personally don't like trying to abuse Darkness that way due to a bad experience trying to do something similar in a different system before 5e came out. It was really effective for me, but made it so that no one else could really do anything.

Edit: Also, my Fighter Warlock picked Disguise Self as his 'Any School' Fighter Spell and I am still SORELY tempted to take Mask of Many Faces. We're pretty high magic so I don't have attunement slots to spend on a Hat of Disguise.

[JellyPooga]

The answer is that different disguises will be out of place in the different situations. For example a noble using the servants entrance/staircase is going to be remarked upon. The proper disguise will lower if not eliminate the need for a deception check. And in a world where magic like Disguise Self or Charm Person is common enough then it's far more likely that the actual guards will be notified of people in areas where they don't really belong compared to the real world.

Why would you use the servants entrance/stairs if you're disguised as a noble? Why would anyone, except another noble, question a noble doing so anyway? If the guards are scrutinising everyone for magical interference, the whole plan falls down at step one when they inevitably check your credentials as a guard.

The more you look at the scenario, the more it looks contrived to showcase multi-use Disguise Self than a plan that you might actually settle on.

Yes, there could be all sorts of reasons to go through four different disguises instead of one, but the more specific you get with the scenario the less likely it is to actually happen. Either because the circumstances that make it the best plan are so unlikely or because there's a simpler, less risky or less resource intensive alternative.

Do the Ogres have goblins working for them, if yes then a Disguise Self is a great way to scout the lair out and you could even get the Ogres to leave the lair by reporting about a caravan wreck carrying a chest of gold is outside and the ogres big strength is needed to bring it back. And now the party can ambush the ogres instead of fighting them in their lair.

And if "no" then Disguise Self is entirely useless. Hell, my gold-plated crowbar works better in that eventuality; simply run in waving the shiny gold thing, bashing it against a wall to get as much attention as possible and then run away laughing shouting "Run, run as fast as you can! You can't catch me, I'm the gold-i-bar man!"

Do you know what else is a great way to scout out or lure out an Ogre lair if they have Goblin servants? Casting Disguise Self once. But only if you're natural height is within 1ft of a goblins, of course. It lasts a hour. If you're stuck in a ogre lair scouting for more than an hour, you've either stuffed it up anyway and/or are doing something stupid, reckless and/or greedy.

Disguise Self is great at both information gathering and creating surprise.

I don't deny that. What I'm highlighting is the infrequent applicability in actual play. Yeah, you can come up with as many independent scenarios as you like in which Disguise Self is useful. Even ones that might take multiple uses in succession, but like I said much earlier on and why I asked for connected examples of such scenarios, the frequency of them is unlikely to be high enough that such plans couldn't be achieved with disposable resources (whether that be scrolls or spell slots or something else).

That's why it's always useful.

You said that before and it's still not true. I'll accept "circumstantially useful" or even "more useful than you might expect", but "always" is a gross exaggeration.

NB - For context, I've played two Warlocks with MoMF and had an absolute blast. Don't get me wrong; when it comes into play it really comes into its own and it's sort of entertaining being a chameleon...to a point. When you do something as a matter of course, it stops being interesting and starts becoming an annoyance. For me, at least, it always felt like I'd overspent on it. The times I wanted it, I didn't usually need it multiple times and I was left wondering why I didn't just grab it as a spell known and/or source scrolls for the times I needed the multi-use.

[Sorinth]

Why would you use the servants entrance/stairs if you're disguised as a noble? Why would anyone, except another noble, question a noble doing so anyway? If the guards are scrutinising everyone for magical interference, the whole plan falls down at step one when they inevitably check your credentials as a guard.

The more you look at the scenario, the more it looks contrived to showcase multi-use Disguise Self than a plan that you might actually settle on.

Yes, there could be all sorts of reasons to go through four different disguises instead of one, but the more specific you get with the scenario the less likely it is to actually happen. Either because the circumstances that make it the best plan are so unlikely or because there's a simpler, less risky or less resource intensive alternative.

I already answered this, walking around where you aren't supposed to be is going to cause problems. You can maybe talk your way out of it, but it's far better to impersonate someone who is supposed to be there.

And if "no" then Disguise Self is entirely useless. Hell, my gold-plated crowbar works better in that eventuality; simply run in waving the shiny gold thing, bashing it against a wall to get as much attention as possible and then run away laughing shouting "Run, run as fast as you can! You can't catch me, I'm the gold-i-bar man!"

Do you know what else is a great way to scout out or lure out an Ogre lair if they have Goblin servants? Casting Disguise Self once. But only if you're natural height is within 1ft of a goblins, of course. It lasts a hour. If you're stuck in a ogre lair scouting for more than an hour, you've either stuffed it up anyway and/or are doing something stupid, reckless and/or greedy.



I don't deny that. What I'm highlighting is the infrequent applicability in actual play. Yeah, you can come up with as many independent scenarios as you like in which Disguise Self is useful. Even ones that might take multiple uses in succession, but like I said much earlier on and why I asked for connected examples of such scenarios, the frequency of them is unlikely to be high enough that such plans couldn't be achieved with disposable resources (whether that be scrolls or spell slots or something else).



You said that before and it's still not true. I'll accept "circumstantially useful" or even "more useful than you might expect", but "always" is a gross exaggeration.

NB - For context, I've played two Warlocks with MoMF and had an absolute blast. Don't get me wrong; when it comes into play it really comes into its own and it's sort of entertaining being a chameleon...to a point. When you do something as a matter of course, it stops being interesting and starts becoming an annoyance. For me, at least, it always felt like I'd overspent on it. The times I wanted it, I didn't usually need it multiple times and I was left wondering why I didn't just grab it as a spell known and/or source scrolls for the times I needed the multi-use.

And this is why this whole conversation is pointless, no matter what scenario someone brings up you'll just say it's too infrequent.

[JellyPooga]

And this is why this whole conversation is pointless, no matter what scenario someone brings up you'll just say it's too infrequent.

Less frequent than "always" is all I'm actually arguing for, yet you persist in pushing for it.

[Keravath]

Less frequent than "always" is all I'm actually arguing for, yet you persist in pushing for it.

Disguise self isn't always useful ... I don't think any one every implied that you could use disguise self in every conceivable situation. It certainly won't help running a marathon, climbing a wall, picking a pocket or any other activity for that matter UNLESS there is some reason the character might want to look different while performing those actions.

If you have disguise self at will you will be far more likely to come up with some way to use it every session than if you have to use resources on it.

1) "Why would you use the servants entrance/stairs if you're disguised as a noble?"
There are so many reasonable answers to this question that I don't understand why you asked.
- so you don't accidentally run into the noble you want to impersonate?
- so you don't get asked questions by other nobles that you don't have the answer for?
- so you don't have to enter through the high security/high profile nobles entrance? Including whatever checks they might have for armed nobles or nobles with magic items?
Of course it is entirely dependent on the situation and the DM ... but there are a huge number of reasons that it would be easier to infiltrate with multiple disguises - including taking on the appearance of people you meet.

2) As to your claim of "always useful", when is Disguise Self useful...
...fighting ogres? ("I hit it with my crowbar")

Make yourself look like an opponent so that they don't attack you. You can't look like an ogre since they are the wrong size but there are likely a good number of choices depending on the scenario. Pretend to attack a party member or make an attack on an ogre and see what sort of confusion that causes. Just tell your party not to attack the mini ogre with the red bandana.

...searching for and disabling traps in a dungeon? ("I poke it with my crowbar." "I jam my crowbar in the mechanism and wreck it")

Change into a goblin/kobold or whatever the dungeon denizen of the day is while trying to search for and disable traps. The defenders are probably less likely to shoot you that way and it opens up some role playing opportunities. On the other hand, if the dungeon has unattended traps then just find and disable them if there are no consequences for failure and no time pressure. Trick also works great when scouting ahead of the party.

...crossing a ravine? ("I tie my rope to my crowbar and use it as a grappling hook" "I hook my crowbar over the rope and use it as a zipline")

There are tons of situations where what you look like is literally irrelevant .. I don't think anyone discussing this has ever said that disguise self would be useful in every single circumstance. That said however, if I am crossing a ravine on a zipline with hostile jungle natives possibly on the other side ... I might prefer to look like one of the hostile jungle natives fleeing from the adventuring party on the zipline rather than one of these invading adventurers who are such tasty targets dangling from a zipline.

...interacting honestly with someone? ("Check out my gold-plated crowbar. Feel the weight.")

Hey! Even in the most honest of interactions in D&D, a little paranoia can go a long way. However, no one said you would ALWAYS use it, or that it would ALWAYS be useful ... just that if you have disguise self at will it could be frequently useful and a character with that resource that costs nothing will find ways to make use of it.