What am I missing with Aberrant Mind & Clockwork Soul?

[SharkForce]

I'm not sure why allowing all damage spells would shift the balance of power.

damage spells are a great option to have, but they are often not the strongest thing a spellcaster can do. in fact, for the most part it's really only the *best* damage spells that are even worth taking at all; if you already have fireball, the value of picking up an additional AoE damage spell is largely "this is plan B, to be used when fireball literally cannot work at all". picking up a third damage-dealing spell loses even more value. sure, you could pick up fireball, *and* lightning bolt, *and* erupting earth, but I can't help but suspect that you'd get a lot more value out of picking up slow, haste, fear, hypnotic pattern, fly, or counterspell to round out the list of things you can do rather than having three ways of dealing damage, two of which will only be used when you can't use the better option(s).

if a sorcerer wants to go all-in on damage, there is no need to artificially discourage them. taking exclusively nukes is not a good idea, but if that's what the player wants, let them do it; it isn't overpowered.

[Hael]

A lot of the home brew going on now with pre tashas classes are pretty OP. Consider that aberrant mind and clockwork both paid opportunity cost for their spell selections, and got fewer features as a result. If you want to remove some of the lvl3 features for your homebrews as an exchange then that seems fairer.

Also consider that the restrictions on the spell types for those classes were severe. Abberant mind had divination and enchantment which is about as harsh as it can get. Clockwork got abjuration and transmutation and already it was starting to get out of hand, and that’s far from the best combo.

[SharkForce]

A lot of the home brew going on now with pre tashas classes are pretty OP. Consider that aberrant mind and clockwork both paid opportunity cost for their spell selections, and got fewer features as a result. If you want to remove some of the lvl3 features for your homebrews as an exchange then that seems fairer.

Also consider that the restrictions on the spell types for those classes were severe. Abberant mind had divination and enchantment which is about as harsh as it can get. Clockwork got abjuration and transmutation and already it was starting to get out of hand, and that’s far from the best combo.

they really didn't pay any major price for their extra spells. aberrant and clockwork, if their features are indeed worse at all, are not behind by much. I would maybe keep in mind that certain features from the older subclasses already get spells (shadow or divine, for example, should probably get 1 less, and draconic arguably gets at-will mage armour and should probably take that into account), but for the most part, aberrant mind without the 10 extra spells would be pretty comparable to what came before.

(also, I'm not sure what you think is vastly superior to transmutation/abjuration, because that's a pretty danged strong combination if you ask me).

[Kane0]

A lot of the home brew going on now with pre tashas classes are pretty OP. Consider that aberrant mind and clockwork both paid opportunity cost for their spell selections, and got fewer features as a result. If you want to remove some of the lvl3 features for your homebrews as an exchange then that seems fairer.

Also consider that the restrictions on the spell types for those classes were severe. Abberant mind had divination and enchantment which is about as harsh as it can get. Clockwork got abjuration and transmutation and already it was starting to get out of hand, and that’s far from the best combo.

I disagree on both fronts. Neither the features nor spell selection are so poor as to be considered ribbons which would be needed to call them on par with subclasses from previous books.

[Kylar0990]

A lot of the home brew going on now with pre tashas classes are pretty OP. Consider that aberrant mind and clockwork both paid opportunity cost for their spell selections, and got fewer features as a result. If you want to remove some of the lvl3 features for your homebrews as an exchange then that seems fairer.

Also consider that the restrictions on the spell types for those classes were severe. Abberant mind had divination and enchantment which is about as harsh as it can get. Clockwork got abjuration and transmutation and already it was starting to get out of hand, and that’s far from the best combo.

What 3rd level features? The only feature any Sorcerer gets at 3rd level is Metamagic.

All Sorcerer subclass features are at levels 1, 6, 14, and 18. Abberant Mind and Clockwork Soul's subclass features are stronger than people are giving them credit for. Their 1st level subclass features aren't quite as strong as some other subclasses, but they make up for that quickly. Their features at 6, 14, and 18 are all strong.

[Hael]

What 3rd level features? The only feature any Sorcerer gets at 3rd level is Metamagic.

All Sorcerer subclass features are at levels 1, 6, 14, and 18. Abberant Mind and Clockwork Soul's subclass features are stronger than people are giving them credit for. Their 1st level subclass features aren't quite as strong as some other subclasses, but they make up for that quickly. Their features at 6, 14, and 18 are all strong.

Sorry for the typo, lvl 1 features obviously. And yea telepathy and a limited reaction doesn’t really compete. The spell list is the feature for all intents and purposes.

As for the other lvls features, I mean they’re ok.. average at best in comparison to the other classes. I’d definitely prefer a shadow sorcerers for instance. The major reason the subclasses are top tier is that spell list.

[SharkForce]

Sorry for the typo, lvl 1 features obviously. And yea telepathy and a limited reaction doesnÂ’t really compete. The spell list is the feature for all intents and purposes.

As for the other lvls features, I mean theyÂ’re ok.. average at best in comparison to the other classes. IÂ’d definitely prefer a shadow sorcerers for instance. The major reason the subclasses are top tier is that spell list.

aberrant mind level 6 ability is free subtle on a large list of spells (many of which can be extremely useful in social situations) and extremely efficient conversion of sorcery points for that same list. also some useful resistances.

clockwork soul has an incredible ability for protecting concentration. those aren't temporary hit points or actual hit points, they represent damage prevented. a 50 damage hit is a DC 25 concentration save. a 50 damage hit minus 5d8 is an average of a DC 13-14 concentration save.

I'm not going to try to argue that they are vastly superior to shadow sorcerer or anything like that, but these are not ribbons, and if they are worse than shadow sorcerer, it isn't by a large margin.

even the level 1 abilities (apart from increased spells known, which is huge) aren't exactly chopped liver.

the aberrant mind ability can be used to speak to people silently, which is useful in a variety of stealth and social situations, as well as situations where a spell requires you to speak to someone to create an effect. your suggestion spells can be subtle for free, for example, and nobody else can hear that you've just made a suggestion to your target. your familiar can scout from several miles away while giving active reports instead of 100 feet. it isn't the absolutely biggest splashy ability out there, but it can be used as often as you want.

the clockwork soul ability can be used to cancel out magic resistance. it can also be used to cancel out armour stealth penalties, disadvantage from attacking an enemy on the ground from a distance, to prevent a restrained ally from making a save at disadvantage, and so on. it isn't exciting or flashy, but it isn't weak either.

these two subclasses would not be as exciting without the extra spells known, for sure. I don't think they'd make the automatic jump to top two subclasses. but they wouldn't be at the bottom of the heap either.

[Kylar0990]

aberrant mind level 6 ability is free subtle on a large list of spells (many of which can be extremely useful in social situations) and extremely efficient conversion of sorcery points for that same list. also some useful resistances.

clockwork soul has an incredible ability for protecting concentration. those aren't temporary hit points or actual hit points, they represent damage prevented. a 50 damage hit is a DC 25 concentration save. a 50 damage hit minus 5d8 is an average of a DC 13-14 concentration save.

I'm not going to try to argue that they are vastly superior to shadow sorcerer or anything like that, but these are not ribbons, and if they are worse than shadow sorcerer, it isn't by a large margin.

even the level 1 abilities (apart from increased spells known, which is huge) aren't exactly chopped liver.

the aberrant mind ability can be used to speak to people silently, which is useful in a variety of stealth and social situations, as well as situations where a spell requires you to speak to someone to create an effect. your suggestion spells can be subtle for free, for example, and nobody else can hear that you've just made a suggestion to your target. your familiar can scout from several miles away while giving active reports instead of 100 feet. it isn't the absolutely biggest splashy ability out there, but it can be used as often as you want.

the clockwork soul ability can be used to cancel out magic resistance. it can also be used to cancel out armour stealth penalties, disadvantage from attacking an enemy on the ground from a distance, to prevent a restrained ally from making a save at disadvantage, and so on. it isn't exciting or flashy, but it isn't weak either.

these two subclasses would not be as exciting without the extra spells known, for sure. I don't think they'd make the automatic jump to top two subclasses. but they wouldn't be at the bottom of the heap either.

Both subclasses 14th level features are strong.

Abberant Mind for 1 or more sorcery points you can give yourself 1-4 abilities that include seeing the invisible, flying, water breathing with a swim speed, and the ability to get out of grapple with just 5 feet of movement.

Clockwork Soul grants you a trance ability that assuming you have a Cha of 20 by this point lets you auto hit anything with an AC 20, and automatically make any concentration check from taking 40 or less damage. While in this trance if you cast Counterspell or Dispel Magic even using a 3rd level slot you auto succeed against anything of 4th or 5th level too.

[MrStabby]

they really didn't pay any major price for their extra spells. aberrant and clockwork, if their features are indeed worse at all, are not behind by much. I would maybe keep in mind that certain features from the older subclasses already get spells (shadow or divine, for example, should probably get 1 less, and draconic arguably gets at-will mage armour and should probably take that into account), but for the most part, aberrant mind without the 10 extra spells would be pretty comparable to what came before.

(also, I'm not sure what you think is vastly superior to transmutation/abjuration, because that's a pretty danged strong combination if you ask me).

Whilst its true that neither of these classes other abilities are as weak as they should be given their spell selection abilities, this is due to unfortunate power creep more than some kind of weakness in their spell selections.

Following a bad example of balance doesnt make balance better but worse. Using the excuse that something else is nearly as bad doesnt mean that bad homebrew isnt bad.

This is not an uncommon problem and seems to be a regular trope on the homebrew forum here:

1) homebrew something really powerful.
2) cherry pick the most powerful option you can find from all the classes, subclasses and combinations.
3) compare your creation to ONLY your selected very powerful options
4) conclude your creation isnt out of line at all and congratulate yourself on how well balanced your creation is.

It's like comparing a caster option to a wizard to argue its weak or comparing a warrior to a paladin to argue its underpowered. Of course if you pick the single most powerful option in each category even something powerful looks mediocre.

I am not saying that you should set out to produce something weak, but the sorcerer is a powerful class to begin with and doesnt need any boosts to surpass half the classes in the game.

[SharkForce]

Whilst its true that neither of these classes other abilities are as weak as they should be given their spell selection abilities, this is due to unfortunate power creep more than some kind of weakness in their spell selections.

Following a bad example of balance doesnt make balance better but worse. Using the excuse that something else is nearly as bad doesnt mean that bad homebrew isnt bad.

This is not an uncommon problem and seems to be a regular trope on the homebrew forum here:

1) homebrew something really powerful.
2) cherry pick the most powerful option you can find from all the classes, subclasses and combinations.
3) compare your creation to ONLY your selected very powerful options
4) conclude your creation isnt out of line at all and congratulate yourself on how well balanced your creation is.

It's like comparing a caster option to a wizard to argue its weak or comparing a warrior to a paladin to argue its underpowered. Of course if you pick the single most powerful option in each category even something powerful looks mediocre.

I am not saying that you should set out to produce something weak, but the sorcerer is a powerful class to begin with and doesnt need any boosts to surpass half the classes in the game.

I would never suggest that these two subclasses are not head and shoulders above the other published ones.

I do think sorcerer needed a bit of an upward nudge (there have consistently been complaints, for years, about the class, and whether you think the power level of it is fine or not the level of dissatisfaction says there is *some* problem there). whether this is too far or not, I'm unsure, but I will say that I am completely unsatisfied with the state of affairs now, with 2 subclasses that you really obviously should take, and the rest of the already-published subclasses being significantly weaker than the new ones.

but, this thread isn't about whether they *should* be more powerful. it's about whether they *are* more powerful.

[MrStabby]

I would never suggest that these two subclasses are not head and shoulders above the other published ones.

I do think sorcerer needed a bit of an upward nudge (there have consistently been complaints, for years, about the class, and whether you think the power level of it is fine or not the level of dissatisfaction says there is *some* problem there). whether this is too far or not, I'm unsure, but I will say that I am completely unsatisfied with the state of affairs now, with 2 subclasses that you really obviously should take, and the rest of the already-published subclasses being significantly weaker than the new ones.

but, this thread isn't about whether they *should* be more powerful. it's about whether they *are* more powerful.

Which are all fair points.

I think that some if this is a missed opportunity of the Alternative Class Features UA/Tasha's. For those that would be happy to trade some other class feature for more spells known or for there to be metamagic that lets one spell fulfil the role of another rather than just powering it up and so on.

But to your point, I think the new subclasses are very powerful and raise an optimised sorcerer from being a bit above average in terms of game impact to right near the top.

[HPisBS]

...
Clockwork Soul grants you a trance ability that assuming you have a Cha of 20 by this point lets you auto hit anything with an AC 20, and automatically make any concentration check from taking 40 or less damage. While in this trance if you cast Counterspell or Dispel Magic even using a 3rd level slot you auto succeed against anything of 4th or 5th level too.

?
I think you mean "you always auto succeed."

(DC is 10 + opposed spell's level, so max of 19.)



As for why all Sorcerers should or shouldn't get extra subclass spells, I'll just reiterate that without them, Sorcerers really do have it kinda rough with the fewest spells known of any full or even half caster, now that Tasha's added 5 more spells known for all Rangers.

Spoiler: For comparison

Show

A Shadow or Divine Soul Sorcerer now has the same number of spells known as a Beast Master or Hunter Ranger. Wild and Storm, one less. Compare to any other Ranger and the Sorcerer really starts looking like the redheaded stepchild of casters.

And with so few spells, you're liable to wind up building Sorcerers that barely have any spells tied to their Origin at all. Bonus spells would also provide an opportunity to give them spells that perfectly fit their theme, but that aren't on the Sorcerer's list. (Looking at you, Call Lightning and Storm Sorcerers!)

[Kylar0990]

?
I think you mean "you always auto succeed."

(DC is 10 + opposed spell's level, so max of 19.)

DC = (10 + spell level)

Using Trance of Order you

If you roll a 1-9 it counts as a 10. Then you add your +5 from Cha so the min you can get is a 15. Using a 3rd level slot you automatically succeed countering any spell of 5th level or lower.

[HPisBS]

DC = (10 + spell level)

Using Trance of Order you

If you roll a 1-9 it counts as a 10. Then you add your +5 from Cha so the min you can get is a 15. Using a 3rd level slot you automatically succeed countering any spell of 5th level or lower.

Oh, you're right. I guess I'm way too accustomed to my Lore Bard that gets to add 1/2 proficiency and a BI die lol

[Kylar0990]

Oh, you're right. I guess I'm way too accustomed to my Lore Bard that gets to add 1/2 proficiency and a BI die lol

Using that same Clockwork Soul feature you auto-hit with any spell attack where you target is AC 20 or lower. At level 14 your proficiency bonus is 5 and your Cha should also be +5 by then so when you can't roll below a 10 you auto-hit an AC 20.