DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

[McNum]

The thread was restarted because the old one fell off the board. Which makes sense since there's been reruns since the S7 finale.

Next week, Death Battle starts up once more. And with a fight that we thought basically impossible. A fight requested, but never expected. Featuring not one, but two characters thought #bannedfromdeathbattle.

In the Green Corner, hailing from a galaxy far far away...

Grandmaster Yoda!

In the Red Corner, hailing from Disney Castle in Kingdom Hearts...

King Mickey!

Twitter link

Now there's a character I would have never, ever, expected to see in Death Battle: Mickey Mouse. I wonder how they're getting away with that one.

Also, I think Mickey's going to win unless Yoda has some extremely hax way to counter him. Sure, The Force, but still... Kingdom Hearts is ridiculous, and Mickey is among the strongest characters there.

Anyway, Yoda vs. Mickey (Kingdom Hearts). Who wins? Does Yoda have a shot?

[Forum Explorer]

The thread was restarted because the old one fell off the board. Which makes sense since there's been reruns since the S7 finale.

Next week, Death Battle starts up once more. And with a fight that we thought basically impossible. A fight requested, but never expected. Featuring not one, but two characters thought #bannedfromdeathbattle.

In the Green Corner, hailing from a galaxy far far away...

Grandmaster Yoda!

In the Red Corner, hailing from Disney Castle in Kingdom Hearts...

King Mickey!

Twitter link

Now there's a character I would have never, ever, expected to see in Death Battle: Mickey Mouse. I wonder how they're getting away with that one.

Also, I think Mickey's going to win unless Yoda has some extremely hax way to counter him. Sure, The Force, but still... Kingdom Hearts is ridiculous, and Mickey is among the strongest characters there.

Anyway, Yoda vs. Mickey (Kingdom Hearts). Who wins? Does Yoda have a shot?

DB is willing to go to some pretty crazy lengths to power up Jedi. So that's a substantial boost in power for Yoda. But Mickey is explicitly more powerful than Yora (IIRC), and he's got some pretty crazy feats to call upon too. I could see it going either way really. But I think Mickey should win.

[Dragonus45]

Just when I start to feel like I don't really care about DB anymore they find some way to drag me back in through shock value alone. What the actual ever loving Altana's **** is this matchup! Mickey almost certainly wins though since most of the EU stuff is noncanon now, and even if it was canon I think it would be a fairly even matchup though.

[Rater202]

It depends on if they give Yoda the feats of other Force users.

They might also take Way to Dawn and The Kingdom Key of the Realm of Darkness being damaged and needing to be replaced/repaired and upgraded as evidence that KEyblades can be damaged and say that Yoda can just slice right through it becuase that's the kind of thing they do.

Remember Kirby vs Buu? "Buu can be killed by atomization, Nuclear fusion would do that, and multiple dragons all villains have been defeated by throwing them into the sun, ergo Kirby can kill Buu by throwing him into the sun... Never mind that Buu required many more times the energy of the sun to be atomized and in both cases where a dragon all villain was thrown into the sun one survived that and the other died of preexisting injuries, with the one who survived being much weaker than Buu."

"A massive cloud of HEartless in the Realm of Darkness where they're stronger was able to damage Keyblades, therefore Keyblades can be damaged... Never mind the complicated details" is the same kind of logic.

[McNum]

It is worth noting that lightsabers DO exist in Kingdom Hearts, the antagonist Xemnas famously dualwields a red set, but Keyblades CAN block them.

And as for King Mickey's biggest moment in the series, and the one that lets him directly scale to Sora, is well... I should spoiler tag this.

Spoiler: Kingdom Hearts III Re:Mind

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This:


In which Mickey, having taken a beating, now faces thirteen Replica Xehanorts solo. Replica Xehanort being a phase of the final boss in the base game of Kingdom Hearts III. After catching his breath, he makes short work of them.

His other big moment is from Dream Drop Distance in which he does this: "STOPZA!"

To put that into perspective. In Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts, spells are tiered by the suffix. So you have Fire, Fira, Firaga, Firaja, and Firaza. Stopza is therefore a tier 5 Stop spell. Yup, Mickey has a timestop that is only really countered by the villain because he can control time, too. Yoda can do many things, but he cannot control time.

[Forum Explorer]

It depends on if they give Yoda the feats of other Force users.

They might also take Way to Dawn and The Kingdom Key of the Realm of Darkness being damaged and needing to be replaced/repaired and upgraded as evidence that KEyblades can be damaged and say that Yoda can just slice right through it becuase that's the kind of thing they do.

Remember Kirby vs Buu? "Buu can be killed by atomization, Nuclear fusion would do that, and multiple dragons all villains have been defeated by throwing them into the sun, ergo Kirby can kill Buu by throwing him into the sun... Never mind that Buu required many more times the energy of the sun to be atomized and in both cases where a dragon all villain was thrown into the sun one survived that and the other died of preexisting injuries, with the one who survived being much weaker than Buu."

"A massive cloud of HEartless in the Realm of Darkness where they're stronger was able to damage Keyblades, therefore Keyblades can be damaged... Never mind the complicated details" is the same kind of logic.

DBZ is absolutely awful for being consistent or having power levels make any sort of sense. Like apparently Mystic Gohan was at a power level of 32 billion. And the average human power level is what? 5 or so? So even if everyone on Earth gave all of their power you'd get an attack that's roughly equal to the power Gohan was at all the time. And the Spirit Ball killed Kid Buu.

Also we've been over how nothing about Cell's claim to being able to blow up the Sun makes sense. But that's not really the point.

The point is DBZ is really badly written when it comes to feats of power, so it's easy to justify either victory or defeat just based on how you interpret the data. It's a lot harder to do that with a more tightly written work.

[Rater202]

DBZ is absolutely awful for being consistent or having power levels make any sort of sense. Like apparently Mystic Gohan was at a power level of 32 billion. And the average human power level is what? 5 or so? So even if everyone on Earth gave all of their power you'd get an attack that's roughly equal to the power Gohan was at all the time. And the Spirit Ball killed Kid Buu.

Also we've been over how nothing about Cell's claim to being able to blow up the Sun makes sense. But that's not really the point.

The point is DBZ is really badly written when it comes to feats of power, so it's easy to justify either victory or defeat just based on how you interpret the data. It's a lot harder to do that with a more tightly written work.

Spoiler: Dragon Ball tangeant

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1: Dragon Ball's inconsistencies are drastically over-exaggerated by both detractors and by casual fans(here used to distinguish between regular people and freaks like me who obsessively poor over all details, not as an attempt t gatekeep)

2: citation of Ultimate Gohan's power level.

3: Super Perfect Cell was, at that point, several times beyond the level of power needed to story planets. The idea that he could pour enough energy into a sun to make it go critical and destroy the system around it isn't exactly far-fetched.

4: Combine all of the spare power of half a dozen system or galaxy busters, two of whom have literally infinite power to give,

A sun isn't going to do crap.

Anyway, you're kind of missing the point. That's an example of Death Battle ignoring vital context in order to claim that someone or something is vulnerable to something they're not.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: Dragon Ball tangeant

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1: Dragon Ball's inconsistencies are drastically over-exaggerated by both detractors and by casual fans(here used to distinguish between regular people and freaks like me who obsessively poor over all details, not as an attempt t gatekeep)

2: citation of Ultimate Gohan's power level.

3: Super Perfect Cell was, at that point, several times beyond the level of power needed to story planets. The idea that he could pour enough energy into a sun to make it go critical and destroy the system around it isn't exactly far-fetched.

4: Combine all of the spare power of half a dozen system or galaxy busters, two of whom have literally infinite power to give,

A sun isn't going to do crap.

Anyway, you're kind of missing the point. That's an example of Death Battle ignoring vital context in order to claim that someone or something is vulnerable to something they're not.

Spoiler: Dragon Ball tangent

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1. I'm admittedly a casual fan, but the inconsistencies I've personally seen are pretty evident. Maybe there are explanations for some of them but I'm hard pressed to believe that you could explain them all.

2. I literally googled Buu Saga Power Levels. I'm not sure if that link will work. Never linked directly to a google search before.

3. Ehhhh, it kinda is? Like for starters, the Sun is 1.3 Million times the size of the Earth. If you threw the entire planet into the Sun, it wouldn't do anything to it. In fact, you could throw Jupiter into the Sun and nothing would happen to change the rest of the solar system. Being several times more powerful than a planet buster still puts you a far far way away from being able to damage a star. The scale is just entirely off.

The second part is that the Sun isn't solid. We see the ki beams in DBZ go through liquids and gases all the time. I'm not 100% how they would interact with plasma, but it seems likely that it would just push its way through the Sun, momentarily creating a hole, which would then close in on itself. After all, the energy from the ki blasts seems to be mostly kinetic, and that just won't do anything something composed of plasma.

4. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Spirit Ball required the power from all the regular humans to kill Buu. Goku's friends were already giving their power, and that wasn't enough. Also again, I don't buy that any of them are system busters.

I'm just disputing the example in question. I think a better one would be the Green Lantern fight.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: Tangent

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2: Those are not offoical. those come fom Reddit and in turn Reddit got them from a fan forum.

3: Kii does what you want it to do: This is why the Dragon Team's daily training exercises don't destroy the planet. While Super Perfect Cell's power level is unknown, we know that he is far, far stronger than Trunks, who was in turn far more powerful than Frieza.

We know that Frieza in his first form, which has a power level of 530,000 stated explicitly in the manga, is able to casually destroy an Earthlike planet with ten times the Earth's gravity. We don't know Planet Vegeta's exact Mass, volume, and density, so we can't compare it directly to the energy needed to destroy the earth, but

Frieza's final form at full power has a power level of 120,000,000, or 226.415 times the level of power needed to casually destroy a plant(though note that, naturally, this would be more concentrated since it's in the same vessel)

We can infer that Trunks, via his curbstomping of an even stronger Frieza and his similarly powerful father, is an order of magnitude more powerful... Not literally, but i can't think of a better term to explain the gulf.

By Perfect Cell's curb-stomp of a Trunks who was at least twice as strong as he was when he killed Frieza, we can assume a similar gulf between Perfect Cell and Trunks.

According to side novels, Cell's golden aura is becuase he has access to Super Saiyan Forms, and Super Perfect Cell's electrified aura would imply that he is in Super Saiyan 2 or an analogous form, so he's at least twice as powerful.

Even if you don't think he's speaking literally about destroying the sun and the planets around it, he's several hundred, maybe even several thousand, times a planet buster.

I could easily see him, when going all out, making a boom big enough to take out a star. Or just taking out the whole system.

4: You don't have to buy it, just becuase we don't see it that doesn't mean it's not true.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: Tangent

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2: Those are not offoical. those come fom Reddit and in turn Reddit got them from a fan forum.

3: Kii does what you want it to do: This is why the Dragon Team's daily training exercises don't destroy the planet. While Super Perfect Cell's power level is unknown, we know that he is far, far stronger than Trunks, who was in turn far more powerful than Frieza.

We know that Frieza in his first form, which has a power level of 530,000 stated explicitly in the manga, is able to casually destroy an Earthlike planet with ten times the Earth's gravity. We don't know Planet Vegeta's exact Mass, volume, and density, so we can't compare it directly to the energy needed to destroy the earth, but

Frieza's final form at full power has a power level of 120,000,000, or 226.415 times the level of power needed to casually destroy a plant(though note that, naturally, this would be more concentrated since it's in the same vessel)

We can infer that Trunks, via his curbstomping of an even stronger Frieza and his similarly powerful father, is an order of magnitude more powerful... Not literally, but i can't think of a better term to explain the gulf.

By Perfect Cell's curb-stomp of a Trunks who was at least twice as strong as he was when he killed Frieza, we can assume a similar gulf between Perfect Cell and Trunks.

According to side novels, Cell's golden aura is becuase he has access to Super Saiyan Forms, and Super Perfect Cell's electrified aura would imply that he is in Super Saiyan 2 or an analogous form, so he's at least twice as powerful.

Even if you don't think he's speaking literally about destroying the sun and the planets around it, he's several hundred, maybe even several thousand, times a planet buster.

I could easily see him, when going all out, making a boom big enough to take out a star. Or just taking out the whole system.

4: You don't have to buy it, just becuase we don't see it that doesn't mean it's not true.

Spoiler: DBZ tangent

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1. Well here's another source that puts Super Perfect Cell at 30 times the power of Final Form Freeza. Mind you, it only gets worse the more you look at it, as the stronger Buu is, the less it makes sense that the Spirit Bomb would be able to hurt him.

3. Except they don't just do anything they want with ki. Like, they don't poison people with ki, strangle them, or wrap them up in ki to prevent them from moving. Maybe they could potentially do those things, but that doesn't mean they know how to do those things.

Though even than, that's still no where close to the power to blow up a star. You need to be millions of times stronger than base form Freeza. Using that 3 Trillion number from the website above, Perfect Cell is only 5 660 times stronger than a planet buster. Impressive, and by a massive margin. Easily to the point of getting the story results we see throughout the Cell Saga. And still not even a percentage of the power needed to damage a star.

Stars are almost incomprehensively massive. We can put the numbers beside it, and we can watch helpful videos to try and put it into perspective, but to actually comprehend what that means is almost beyond us.

4. Most of this point was talking about how that power wasn't sufficient to kill Buu and that the billions of people (or a lot less, the DBZ world seems to be a lot smaller in population than our own) were needed to have the Spirit Bomb work. Honestly, the more powerful everyone else is, the less the scene makes sense.

5. The claim that they can blow up stars is basically irrelevant to the story. They never blow up a star, they never try to blow up a star, blowing up a star would never help anything and the only villains that are killed via stars aren't 100% canon. But it still makes a lot more sense that they can't destroy stars from what we see on screen.

[Rater202]

Spoiler

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1: Those sources give power levels that arent stated anywhere and are contradicted by official sources.

4: I forgot to reply to this part: Goku didn't even throw the spirit bomb untill everyone on Earth had donated all the energy they had to spare—They were literally at the point of total exhaustion and giving any more energy would have consumed their life-force instead of their ki.

What happened was that Goku didn't have the energy to use the bomb. A common fanon is that the SpritBomb can't hurt you if you're pure of heart, but it's more than people who are pure of heart can push it back or deflect it.

And "pure of heart" doesn't mean "pure good."

Kid Buu's Japanese name i "pure buu" and this is becuase he's a pure embodiment of evil and destruction without any outside elements. This meant he was "pure of heart" and he was able to catch the Spirit Bomb and push it back towards Goku.

Then they used a wish on Porounga to bring Goku back to full power and stamina and he was able to push the bomb hard enough that Buu got pushed inside and atomized.

...Which, technically, means they weren't using the Spirit Bomb as intended. It's called a bomb for a reason, it normally explodes.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler

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1: Those sources give power levels that arent stated anywhere and are contradicted by official sources.

4: I forgot to reply to this part: Goku didn't even throw the spirit bomb untill everyone on Earth had donated all the energy they had to spare—They were literally at the point of total exhaustion and giving any more energy would have consumed their life-force instead of their ki.

What happened was that Goku didn't have the energy to use the bomb. A common fanon is that the SpritBomb can't hurt you if you're pure of heart, but it's more than people who are pure of heart can push it back or deflect it.

And "pure of heart" doesn't mean "pure good."

Kid Buu's Japanese name i "pure buu" and this is becuase he's a pure embodiment of evil and destruction without any outside elements. This meant he was "pure of heart" and he was able to catch the Spirit Bomb and push it back towards Goku.

Then they used a wish on Porounga to bring Goku back to full power and stamina and he was able to push the bomb hard enough that Buu got pushed inside and atomized.

...Which, technically, means they weren't using the Spirit Bomb as intended. It's called a bomb for a reason, it normally explodes.

Spoiler: Tangent

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1. Well do you have some hard numbers for me to look at than? Because from what we see, it doesn't take a massive difference in power levels for fights to become a curbstomp. Even if someone is only half as times stronger than you (so 1.5 vs 1) they are almost invincible to anything you can do.

4. Not sure what your point is here. Is it that the Spirit Bomb was even less effective than it should be? Because it sounds like that's what you're saying, but I don't think you want to be saying that.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: Tangent

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1. Well do you have some hard numbers for me to look at than? Because from what we see, it doesn't take a massive difference in power levels for fights to become a curbstomp. Even if someone is only half as times stronger than you (so 1.5 vs 1) they are almost invincible to anything you can do.

4. Not sure what your point is here. Is it that the Spirit Bomb was even less effective than it should be? Because it sounds like that's what you're saying, but I don't think you want to be saying that.

Spoiler

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1: The Wiki has a list of power-levels with citations, including statements direct from the anime and manga as well as data looks and authorial statements cited to where the statement was recorded.

(It also has separate tables for power level readings from Videogames, which are not canon.

4: You said early that you were under the impression that the combined power of the Dragon Team wasn't enough to hurt Buu and they needed to get the power of everyone else on Earth.

I was correcting your mistaken impression, they never even tried a spirit bomb with just their combined power. They went straight to "throw the entire population of the Earth's combined power at him and hope to hell that it works."

Logically speaking, the Dragon Team's contributions and those of Android 17 would have been the bulk of that power, but as I stated already concentrating ki makes the same amount more potent and the spirt bomb's power comes from concentrating ki from multible sources into something much greater than the individuals could create on their own.

This is also, for example, why Raditz's scouter gave Piccolo's power level as over three times what it ad been previously when he was charging the Special Beam canon.

The spirit bomb was as effective as it needed to be: Buu's ability to push it back wasn't a factor of power but a factor of his status as a "pure" being.

Kid Buu may have been the weakest form of Buu, excepting his expelled good side. He may have in fact been weaker than Goku. The problem was that he had unlimited stamina and the ability to reconstitute his entire being as long as even one molecule was intact. It's not enough to destroy his body, you have to destroy every last trace of him.

In fact, the Spirit bomb was pretty much the only thing to do any meaningful damage to any form of Kid Buu. In the video, Death Battle cited Buu being blasted to goo by his own planet-busting attack as proof that he was susceptible to planet busters, but the fact of the matter is that Kid Buu just doesn't bothered to defend himself from attacks that can't kill him.

In fact, the Spirit bomb is the only time he defended himself too IIRC.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler

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1: The Wiki has a list of power-levels with citations, including statements direct from the anime and manga as well as data looks and authorial statements cited to where the statement was recorded.

(It also has separate tables for power level readings from Videogames, which are not canon.

4: You said early that you were under the impression that the combined power of the Dragon Team wasn't enough to hurt Buu and they needed to get the power of everyone else on Earth.

I was correcting your mistaken impression, they never even tried a spirit bomb with just their combined power. They went straight to "throw the entire population of the Earth's combined power at him and hope to hell that it works."

Logically speaking, the Dragon Team's contributions and those of Android 17 would have been the bulk of that power, but as I stated already concentrating ki makes the same amount more potent and the spirt bomb's power comes from concentrating ki from multible sources into something much greater than the individuals could create on their own.

This is also, for example, why Raditz's scouter gave Piccolo's power level as over three times what it ad been previously when he was charging the Special Beam canon.

The spirit bomb was as effective as it needed to be: Buu's ability to push it back wasn't a factor of power but a factor of his status as a "pure" being.

Kid Buu may have been the weakest form of Buu, excepting his expelled good side. He may have in fact been weaker than Goku. The problem was that he had unlimited stamina and the ability to reconstitute his entire being as long as even one molecule was intact. It's not enough to destroy his body, you have to destroy every last trace of him.

In fact, the Spirit bomb was pretty much the only thing to do any meaningful damage to any form of Kid Buu. In the video, Death Battle cited Buu being blasted to goo by his own planet-busting attack as proof that he was susceptible to planet busters, but the fact of the matter is that Kid Buu just doesn't bothered to defend himself from attacks that can't kill him.

In fact, the Spirit bomb is the only time he defended himself too IIRC.

Spoiler: Tangent

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1. Those power levels match up pretty well with what I was saying. And funny enough so do the video game ones. There is a massive difference between Perfect Cell and Freeza. So much that Perfect Cell would curb stomp Freeza as we can see from canon. But not so much that they'd be able to do anything to the sun.

4. This is one of the inconsistant points of Dragonball Z. Well kinda. More nonsensical than inconsistent. Kid Buu is weaker that Super Buu. And Gogeta beat the ever living snot out of Super Buu. Sure, the damage wasn't meaningful as Super Buu could just regenerate it, but still, Gogeta could power a spirit ball just using his own energy to destroy Kid Buu. And it's not like they couldn't get Gogeta. They wished Goku back to full strength, they could very well do the same for Vegeta at the same time ('I wish everyone fighting Buu was at full strength!' or something). Logically there was no reason to involve the people of Earth at all.

And that's where things break down, and you start to get weird results that can be justified to mess up Death Battles. Sure, most of the energy from the Spirit Ball would logically come from the Z Warriors. And yes, they didn't even try to throw it without every last bit of energy from Earth. But the ball itself grows by a lot once everyone gets involved, so just by visual design it looks like the majority of the power is coming from normal people.

Plus than we get into the character word problem. The characters themselves claim that the power of the Spirit Ball is insufficient until they get everyone's power. They also claim they can blow up solar systems. If they have the power for the latter, than the power given by ordinary people should be basically nothing in comparison. Which means they should be able to destroy Buu without using their power. Which makes the first claim false.

Of course the exact same evidence (the character's literal words) is given for both. So if we can't believe them for the former, than we shouldn't for the latter. And so on and so forth. So you get a damned if you do damned if you don't sort of thing.

A) The character's are correct: Than they needed the power of everyone on Earth to kill Buu. That power is insignificant compared to the energy of a star. Therefore throwing Buu into the sun would kill him.

or

B) The character's aren't correct: Than they aren't capable of blowing up solar systems. The sun has more energy and power than they can deal with. Therefore throwing Buu into the sun would kill him.

Of course there is the middle ground of they aren't always correct. After all most people aren't 100% accurate all the time. And in order to tell if they are accurate you can just look at what they do, what damages them, and so on. Which is all well and good, but that likely still leads to the conclusion that yes, throwing Buu into the sun would kill him.

Mind you there are lots of things to pick apart in the argument that Kirby would win. The usual 'just because he can travel at FTL doesn't mean he can fight at FTL' to 'an explosion eclipsing a planet is not equal to an explosion destroying a planet'.

As an aside, you are wrong about the defending himself part. Buu deflects and dodges attacks all the time during his fight with SS3 Goku. He didn't need to, the attacks that land don't do anything, but he does anyways.

[Anteros]

You're making arbitrary assumptions to support your personal bias. Maybe a spirit bomb composed from more sources is better than one with few, even if the few sources are individually more powerful. We have no information about how the technique works other than that it gathers energy from willing sources and weaponizes it. Anything else is supposition, and if we're going to make unproven assumptions about how things work it makes much more sense to err on the side that the characters, who are experts in their field, actually are correct.

It makes no sense to randomly assume things work in such a way as to support your opinion when we have no technical evidence either way, and your opinion is directly contradicted by what we are told by the manga.

[Traab]

Seriously? We couldnt even get past page ONE without it turning right back to dragonball? What the actual heck is WRONG with this community? Is it that hard to pick the literal legion of examples of how death battle does it wrong without going directly for dragonball? You all already know how this goes, its a circular argument where you basically copy and paste the arguments from the last 6 dozen times the subject came up. Nobody changes their mind, and in the end everyone involved gets too invested in it and upset while everyone else has to scroll through three pages of spoilered dbz posts.

[Anteros]

Seriously? We couldnt even get past page ONE without it turning right back to dragonball? What the actual heck is WRONG with this community? Is it that hard to pick the literal legion of examples of how death battle does it wrong without going directly for dragonball? You all already know how this goes, its a circular argument where you basically copy and paste the arguments from the last 6 dozen times the subject came up. Nobody changes their mind, and in the end everyone involved gets too invested in it and upset while everyone else has to scroll through three pages of spoilered dbz posts.

I mean, you're perfectly welcome to not participate in the discussions you don't like.

[McNum]

Seriously? We couldnt even get past page ONE without it turning right back to dragonball? What the actual heck is WRONG with this community? Is it that hard to pick the literal legion of examples of how death battle does it wrong without going directly for dragonball? You all already know how this goes, its a circular argument where you basically copy and paste the arguments from the last 6 dozen times the subject came up. Nobody changes their mind, and in the end everyone involved gets too invested in it and upset while everyone else has to scroll through three pages of spoilered dbz posts.

And that's why I put a question mark on the thread title. Because it's always coming back to restarting a discussion from several seasons ago. ...also Gaara got robbed.

[Dragonus45]

And that's why I put a question mark on the thread title. Because it's always coming back to restarting a discussion from several seasons ago. ...also Gaara got robbed.

Yea I agree, and Dragonball itself being a poor source of information of even what is going on on screen let alone the rest of it it is ripe for argument. Like, we all agree Gaara got robbed and it was objectively a bad take with no logical way for anyone alive to disagree on that point. With Dragonball there is plenty of space to be wrong and still argue about it because Toriyama never keeps track of what he has done before and he isn't even the person doing the day to day writing anymore and he really doesn't keep track of how the two primary people adapting his ideas are doing it.

[Traab]

Yea I agree, and Dragonball itself being a poor source of information of even what is going on on screen let alone the rest of it it is ripe for argument. Like, we all agree Gaara got robbed and it was objectively a bad take with no logical way for anyone alive to disagree on that point. With Dragonball there is plenty of space to be wrong and still argue about it because Toriyama never keeps track of what he has done before and he isn't even the person doing the day to day writing anymore and he really doesn't keep track of how the two primary people adapting his ideas are doing it.

The problem with using dragonball as an argument point for how stupid death battle logic is, is that there are people on all sides of the dragonball debate ready willing and eager to fight to the death for their stance, with absolutely no give in any of them. Thats why i wish instead we could point out the stuff like cloud being given trash gear while link got just about anything he could want from all his games combined because apparently EVERYTHING is "iconic" gear for link while cloud gets his starting sword and most pathetic materia. Or any of the other matchups where death battle clearly ignored all context to justify some absurd stance in order to force a winner or try to even the scales to the point where a battle could happen such as ichigo versus naruto where they just started pulling all sorts of "facts" out of thin air to justify everything.

Back to the original topic though, i honestly dont think yoda has this as king mickey has cartoon and absurd video game logic to fall back on while yoda has very little other than the standard jedi package to work with in general, only add a +2 to all jedi stats because he is the grandmaster of the order. Meanwhile micky is a reality altering max level wizard in command of the elements as well as time and space on top of being an absurdly good swordsman. Im sure death battle will gladly give yoda every feat any jedi has ever performed because as grand master of course he has all of the abilities of 10,000 living and millions of long since dead jedis of legend. Probably sith too because why not, its all the force.

[McNum]

Yea I agree, and Dragonball itself being a poor source of information of even what is going on on screen let alone the rest of it it is ripe for argument. Like, we all agree Gaara got robbed and it was objectively a bad take with no logical way for anyone alive to disagree on that point. With Dragonball there is plenty of space to be wrong and still argue about it because Toriyama never keeps track of what he has done before and he isn't even the person doing the day to day writing anymore and he really doesn't keep track of how the two primary people adapting his ideas are doing it.

For Kirby, it's plainly obvious that they took a seemingly funny character and looked as his feats, realizing that the little pink blob is Comic Horror level, and should face an opponent of that tier.

It's a mismatch and shouldn't have been fought. It's a Flash vs. Quicksilver level match of thematic appropriateness outweighing weight classes. Buu got robbed, not of a victory, but of a good fight.

[Dragonus45]

Back to the original topic though, i honestly dont think yoda has this as king mickey has cartoon and absurd video game logic to fall back on while yoda has very little other than the standard jedi package to work with in general, only add a +2 to all jedi stats because he is the grandmaster of the order. Meanwhile micky is a reality altering max level wizard in command of the elements as well as time and space on top of being an absurdly good swordsman. Im sure death battle will gladly give yoda every feat any jedi has ever performed because as grand master of course he has all of the abilities of 10,000 living and millions of long since dead jedis of legend. Probably sith too because why not, its all the force.

Sure, but Mickey knows STOPZA GG friends time to go home.

[McNum]

Sure, but Mickey knows STOPZA GG friends time to go home.

He also knows Ultima, but since that was only used on the main villain who had an equally impressive defense, the exact power of it is unknown.

Being able to cast Ultima and Stopza puts Mickey as the second-most powerful mage on Team Light. The strongest, of course, is Donald Duck.

[Dragonus45]

He also knows Ultima, but since that was only used on the main villain who had an equally impressive defense, the exact power of it is unknown.

Being able to cast Ultima and Stopza puts Mickey as the second-most powerful mage on Team Light. The strongest, of course, is Donald Duck.

Yep, Donald Duck is somehow an even better wizard then Mickey and as a result claims the title of Strongest Mage in Final Fantasy Canon.

[McNum]

Yep, Donald Duck is somehow an even better wizard then Mickey and as a result claims the title of Strongest Mage in Final Fantasy Canon.

It's still hilarious that Donald Duck can cast Zettaflare.

Zettaflare!

To put that into perspective. Bahamut, the King of Dragons' signature attack is Megaflare, often one of the most powerful attacks in the game he's in. Upgraded Bahamuts, such as FF7's Neo Bahamut and Bahamut ZERO get Gigaflare and Teraflare respectively. Teraflare essentially being an orbital space laser.

If you were to keep that, and remember that each prefix update multiplies by a thousand, the next flares would be Petaflare and Exaflare. The one following those is Zettaflare. So Donald Duck has an attack that's 1,000,000,000,000,000 times the breath weapon of Bahamut, King of Dragons.

And that is one reason why Death Battle needs Donald Duck.

[Rater202]

Seriously? We couldnt even get past page ONE without it turning right back to dragonball? What the actual heck is WRONG with this community? Is it that hard to pick the literal legion of examples of how death battle does it wrong without going directly for dragonball? You all already know how this goes, its a circular argument where you basically copy and paste the arguments from the last 6 dozen times the subject came up. Nobody changes their mind, and in the end everyone involved gets too invested in it and upset while everyone else has to scroll through three pages of spoilered dbz posts.

We talk about dragon ball in the Death battle thread because most of their dragon ball episodes are particularly outrageous examples of their bias.

The only times I think a dragon ball character has won were cases where even casual fans of both media would say that the dragon ball character was drastically more powerful than the person they were fighting. Anything even remotely resembling a fair fight is fudged in favor of the other character.

It's not the only example—Toph vs Gaara and Ben 10 vs Green Lanter are also absurd, and the Captain Marvel vs Shazam fight blatantly assumes that Billy's strength at 100 times his normal size is the same as his regular strength—but the Dragon Ball match-ups are the most blatant.

[McNum]

We talk about dragon ball in the Death battle thread because most of their dragon ball episodes are particularly outrageous examples of their bias.

The only times I think a dragon ball character has won were cases where even casual fans of both media would say that the dragon ball character was drastically more powerful than the person they were fighting. Anything even remotely resembling a fair fight is fudged in favor of the other character.

It's not the only example—Toph vs Gaara and Ben 10 vs Green Lanter are also absurd, and the Captain Marvel vs Shazam fight blatantly assumes that Billy's strength at 100 times his normal size is the same as his regular strength—but the Dragon Ball match-ups are the most blatant.

Beerus vs. Galaxia, though. And that was an inspired choice for a fight, might I add.

Buu vs. Kirby is... not. You want a Dragon Ball character to match Kirby, you bring in Merged Zamasu. That's the kind of threat Kirby deals with. You bring a Cosmic Horror to fight a Cosmic Horror. Also it would be hilarious to have Zamasu rant about how he's a god at Kirby only to get a confused "Poyo~?" in return.

[Rater202]

To be fair I don't think that Merged Zamasu existed at the time.

And that would just be a curb stomp against Kirby. How do you fight "the only way to kill him turns him into literally the entire multiverse?"

[Rynjin]

It's still hilarious that Donald Duck can cast Zettaflare.

Zettaflare!

To put that into perspective. Bahamut, the King of Dragons' signature attack is Megaflare, often one of the most powerful attacks in the game he's in. Upgraded Bahamuts, such as FF7's Neo Bahamut and Bahamut ZERO get Gigaflare and Teraflare respectively. Teraflare essentially being an orbital space laser.

If you were to keep that, and remember that each prefix update multiplies by a thousand, the next flares would be Petaflare and Exaflare. The one following those is Zettaflare. So Donald Duck has an attack that's 1,000,000,000,000,000 times the breath weapon of Bahamut, King of Dragons.

And that is one reason why Death Battle needs Donald Duck.

Didn't they do one with Donald not too long ago? But they "only" used comics Donald (who also has some insane Feats).

[McNum]

To be fair I don't think that Merged Zamasu existed at the time.

And that would just be a curb stomp against Kirby. How do you fight "the only way to kill him turns him into literally the entire multiverse?"

I'm not sure it would be. Because it's not a joke that I'm calling Kirby a Cosmic Horror. As of Kirby Star Allies, what Kirby really is, has become a very interesting question. Because, well, the final boss of that game, the very core of Void Termina, the destroyer of worlds, and a boss cycling through many very familiar shapes along the way... is a Kirby. A swirly evil Kirby being many kinds of wrong, but with enough similarities that things get... interesting.

It is implied that Void Termina is a Kirby born from negative emotions, the source of the Dark Matter, and generally all-round horrible. Our hero, however, is made from love and happiness. Which raises the question of just what, exactly, Kirby can do. He's fought beings of negative emotions before, see Dark Matter and Zero, and proven particularly effective against those. This could be a possible win against Zamasu's final move. A world made of hate and anger against a Cosmic Horror made of love and joy? That'd be a very interesting matchup.