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  1. - Top - End - #481
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Not bullet proof... But bullets clearly aren't all that deadly against them...

    Most people also try to avoid or block punches, even though most punches aren't deadly.
    ok let's put it this way. Is there any logical in story reason that the characters would be able to survive a supernova. Forget about the mechanics in gameplay. Is there any one thing revealed in the story that would explain someone like Tifa, or Barret or any of them being able to survive total solar system level destruction?

    Also if you're admitting that they're not bullet proof, How in the damn hell are they Supernova proof?
    Last edited by Devonix; 2021-06-16 at 11:36 PM.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Setting aside the game mechanics when discussing a game character is one of the most bizarre ideas I've heard of in a while.

    Wouldn't that mean Link just loses anyway? He exists ENTIRELY in game mechanics; hell the only things we tend to see him do in cutscenes is get his ass kicked.

  3. - Top - End - #483
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Setting aside the game mechanics when discussing a game character is one of the most bizarre ideas I've heard of in a while.

    Wouldn't that mean Link just loses anyway? He exists ENTIRELY in game mechanics; hell the only things we tend to see him do in cutscenes is get his ass kicked.
    Counting game me me hsmics gives you stiff like lara croft being ably to est bullets
    Ot the soldiers in call of duty having wolverine style regen.things that obviously contradict the story

    Also i don't care about Link losing that's not the point. They also gave Link utterly nonsensical feats like being faster than light just because he could dodge a laser turret. When he's dodging the turret not light.

    There's lots of gameplay stuff you ignore. Cukoos aren't Invincible monsters for one thing. Specific tools and things link does to get through puzzles and the info on bosses are real for example

    Link's also got some amazing armor but one good headshot snd he's going down.
    Last edited by Devonix; 2021-06-17 at 09:12 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #484
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    ok let's put it this way. Is there any logical in story reason that the characters would be able to survive a supernova. Forget about the mechanics in gameplay. Is there any one thing revealed in the story that would explain someone like Tifa, or Barret or any of them being able to survive total solar system level destruction?

    Also if you're admitting that they're not bullet proof, How in the damn hell are they Supernova proof?
    Did I at any point say they are able to survive supernovas?

    I said the game clearly shows the characters get stronger over time... And that they are clearly capable of much more than normal people... Not that every animation and/or game mechanic should be taken literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Setting aside the game mechanics when discussing a game character is one of the most bizarre ideas I've heard of in a while.
    Lots of game mechanics (most of them, really) are meant to balance the game, not to be perfectly accurate representations of what the character can or cannot do...

    In countless games, characters take damage (or even die) simply by touching an enemy... That's rarely meant to be the canonical reality of how things actually happen.

    However, the game mechanics do inform us what the characters are capable of... To a degree. If you a character constantly and consistently fight giant monsters with city-destroying attacks, then it's safe to assume said character is indeed capable of fighting those creatures, even if the fight doesn't go exactly the way it does in-game.

    If a character keeps getting stronger in game and fighting increasingly powerful enemies, then it's fair and reasonable to assume that the characters does indeed gets stronger as the story progresses (specially in JRPGs, where half the point of the game is getting stronger).
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2021-06-17 at 11:00 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #485
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I'm not saying that they are 100 percent normal real world people.

    They're action heroes with super powers. But yes I'm willing to buy falling through a roof from hundreds of feat because that's supported by other stuff in the narrative.

    What cloud didbin that fall is no different than any 80s action hero.

    And as for getting more powerful. The numerical stats and increases don't exist in universe.

    A sword stab at the start of the story is as dangerous as a sword stab at the end. At most you'd be skilled enough to block or dodge the attack better.

    If Supernova and surviving it were real then unless you think cloud and only cloud was in the fight you have several completely unagumented humans and a robot that can be mass produced tank a supernova.

    If shinra has that kind of tech Meteor would never have been a threat
    In game we see them grow more powerful. We see them go from being unable to face a midgar serpent, to facing off against the dude who casually impaled one on a tree. You keep trying to ignore the demonstrated feats saying they arent realistic despite the entire game and everything in it being unrealistic. They clearly grow stronger, they clearly grow tougher. Trying to pretend it doesnt count because people dont have hp bars irl doesnt alter the fact that its happening right in front of you and you are sticking your fingers in your ears going "lalala I cant hear you!" A sword stab clearly ISNT as lethal at the end as it is at the start. You have to beat sephi twice, then go into a stabbing frenzy to finally finish him off. Thats after stabbing, slashing, shooting, and nuking him with all sorts of elemental attacks for 15 minutes. Clearly a sword stab isnt as bad as it used to be. Equally clearly, you are no longer in a position where a sword stab is enough to bring you down, even when delivered by the guy who is capable of destroying the world.
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  6. - Top - End - #486
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Also i don't care about Link losing that's not the point. They also gave Link utterly nonsensical feats like being faster than light just because he could dodge a laser turret. When he's dodging the turret not light.
    Also not every glowy-beam shoots at the speed of light. The guardian beams are very fast, but not light-speed and you can tell because there is a flash of light as the beam comes out that YOU CAN SEE before the beam hits you. It's glowy-explody energy that moves fast, that's not always a laser in fantasy even if colloquially we call it that.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    I hate it when people treat the word "laser" like its still used as the literal acronym instead of a general descriptive term for beam weapons, personally. You pretty much have to be deliberately misunderstanding somebody on purpose to do it these days. Yeah, there are laser pointers and other real lasers, in which case you can tell youre dealing with an actual speed of light interaction by the context.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    You know, the more I think about it, the more fair using Supernova as a literal feat seems. Sure, it makes FF7 not actually make sense, but it is something we see on screen, that happens to the character in question. No dubious comparisons, no exaggerating feats, no weird calculations. Literally, 'hey we are shown him surviving a supernova in canon, so he's that durable.' Sure it doesn't make sense storywise, but it makes a lot more sense than say, punching a black hole into existence.

    That's a lot more than we can say about a lot of other characters. Like the feat they gave Shadow, with his continent moving ability? That wasn't him. That wasn't even Sonic. It wasn't, technically, even a chaos emerald. It was some weird monster that tore the planet apart, and the chaos emerald only resealed the monster. And it had to be put in a special temple in order to do that in the first place.

    So yeah, in comparison, Cloud getting the supernova feat is downright reasonable.
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  9. - Top - End - #489
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    You know, the more I think about it, the more fair using Supernova as a literal feat seems. Sure, it makes FF7 not actually make sense, but it is something we see on screen, that happens to the character in question. No dubious comparisons, no exaggerating feats, no weird calculations. Literally, 'hey we are shown him surviving a supernova in canon, so he's that durable.' Sure it doesn't make sense storywise, but it makes a lot more sense than say, punching a black hole into existence.

    That's a lot more than we can say about a lot of other characters. Like the feat they gave Shadow, with his continent moving ability? That wasn't him. That wasn't even Sonic. It wasn't, technically, even a chaos emerald. It was some weird monster that tore the planet apart, and the chaos emerald only resealed the monster. And it had to be put in a special temple in order to do that in the first place.

    So yeah, in comparison, Cloud getting the supernova feat is downright reasonable.
    Also, word of god is that it happens, it isnt some fancy illusion to make his fireball spell look cooler, according to the manual or guide or whatever its called, they are pulled into an alternate dimension and blasted by an exploding sun. So yeah, while it may not make sense, being an extreme outlier compared to other visual effects, you cant just deny it happens because it doesnt fit, because literally every official source backs it up as having happened including word of god and our own eyes.

    Personally, i choose to look at it under dragonball rules. These guys are fighting at levels that should and could shatter entire universes and yet they dont. Sometimes they emphasize that aspect and show a reason why it doesnt happen, but the power to do that is still there, even though they are "just" punching each other. Physics is a harsh mistress and makes things a lot more boring if you interpret them too strictly, so you have to hand wave at least a little to explain why superman doesnt cause endless nuclear explosions when he flies in atmosphere. You just have to accept that yes it makes no sense, but he is doing it anyways.
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  10. - Top - End - #490
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Also, word of god is that it happens, it isnt some fancy illusion to make his fireball spell look cooler, according to the manual or guide or whatever its called, they are pulled into an alternate dimension and blasted by an exploding sun. So yeah, while it may not make sense, being an extreme outlier compared to other visual effects, you cant just deny it happens because it doesnt fit, because literally every official source backs it up as having happened including word of god and our own eyes.

    Personally, i choose to look at it under dragonball rules. These guys are fighting at levels that should and could shatter entire universes and yet they dont. Sometimes they emphasize that aspect and show a reason why it doesnt happen, but the power to do that is still there, even though they are "just" punching each other. Physics is a harsh mistress and makes things a lot more boring if you interpret them too strictly, so you have to hand wave at least a little to explain why superman doesnt cause endless nuclear explosions when he flies in atmosphere. You just have to accept that yes it makes no sense, but he is doing it anyways.
    The thing is that it literally makes no sense. And if they are capable of surviving something like that, then why and how are they injured by things billions of times less deadly.

    If a Supernova won't kill them, then Sephiroth's sword damn sure shouldn't be able to scratch them. Nothing should be able to harm them. They should quite literally be able to just casually stroll through every attack from every enemy in the game without so much as blinking, dodging, blocking or anything. They shouldn't be able to be restrained by chains, locked in cells, If solar system level damage can't kill them, then planatery stuff shouldn't be able to harm them.

    Supernova makes them stronger than the story says they are.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    The thing is that it literally makes no sense. And if they are capable of surviving something like that, then why and how are they injured by things billions of times less deadly.

    If a Supernova won't kill them, then Sephiroth's sword damn sure shouldn't be able to scratch them. Nothing should be able to harm them. They should quite literally be able to just casually stroll through every attack from every enemy in the game without so much as blinking, dodging, blocking or anything. They shouldn't be able to be restrained by chains, locked in cells, If solar system level damage can't kill them, then planatery stuff shouldn't be able to harm them.

    Supernova makes them stronger than the story says they are.
    Punching a black hole into existence makes even less sense, yet that was a thing. Same with a lot of superhero comic feats really. If we are going to throw out feats simply for not making sense, than all the characters in Death Battle would be significantly weaker.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
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    The Hellbat Suit is kind of an odd choice- it's not like it's the most iconic character/armour out there, and do we really need yet another Batman variant match? Eh, not that upset about it, just seems like a weird choice.
    It's Batman at his theoretical most powerful moment, so they're either doing it to give him a win over a high tier opponent, or doing it to give him a loss even at this peak. Basically either "Batman's so broken he can even beat (insert overpowered character here)" or "Even at his peak, Batman isn't that great". Either one gets people talking about them which is what they want.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    The thing is that it literally makes no sense. And if they are capable of surviving something like that, then why and how are they injured by things billions of times less deadly.

    If a Supernova won't kill them, then Sephiroth's sword damn sure shouldn't be able to scratch them. Nothing should be able to harm them. They should quite literally be able to just casually stroll through every attack from every enemy in the game without so much as blinking, dodging, blocking or anything. They shouldn't be able to be restrained by chains, locked in cells, If solar system level damage can't kill them, then planatery stuff shouldn't be able to harm them.

    Supernova makes them stronger than the story says they are.
    Unless the things in their universe are just that much beyond the norm. These monsters are superhumanly powerful. Hell, we know Bahamut is somewhere between a planet and solar system destroyer, canonically, and he's a summon that can show up and roast some random mortals and they potentially don't die. It just works.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    The thing is that it literally makes no sense. And if they are capable of surviving something like that, then why and how are they injured by things billions of times less deadly.

    If a Supernova won't kill them, then Sephiroth's sword damn sure shouldn't be able to scratch them. Nothing should be able to harm them. They should quite literally be able to just casually stroll through every attack from every enemy in the game without so much as blinking, dodging, blocking or anything. They shouldn't be able to be restrained by chains, locked in cells, If solar system level damage can't kill them, then planatery stuff shouldn't be able to harm them.

    Supernova makes them stronger than the story says they are.
    Honestly, I have never, ever felt in danger by anything in the game aside from the optional bosses. Nothing is a threat in the game, even the final boss isnt hard. Like, maybe fighting the first scorpion robot boss is dangerous if you utterly ignore the instruction to not attack him when his tail is up, but yeah, nothing is actually dangerous in the game but the Weapons. Oh wait, the midgardian serpent thing is dangerous the first time you see one. I take it back. But yeah, most of the game is spent casually strolling through armies of mooks and casually obliterating any boss that shows up. I didnt buy the strategy guide to help me beat the game, i bought it to find where all the secret items and such were.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Also, if they are indeed transported to a different dimension, it's quite possible they are aubject to different laws of physics while there.

    Also, Magic.

    Magic that has literally no thought put into it other than "This looks cool!".
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    I don't see it as very different from how Superman can lift the planet and also struggle to catch an airplane. Or how Flash has infinity speed but can struggle to catch bank robbers in a moving car. Or any other example from medias with absurdly overpowered characters where they struggle to make the stories interesting as a result.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I don't see it as very different from how Superman can lift the planet and also struggle to catch an airplane. Or how Flash has infinity speed but can struggle to catch bank robbers in a moving car. Or any other example from medias with absurdly overpowered characters where they struggle to make the stories interesting as a result.
    The difference is that the story is telling us something different. This to me is like saying mario takes damage simply by bumping into a goomba

    Or that characters in Call of Duty have wolverine level regeneration. The story says that these things are dangerous. The story says they're not bullet proof, the story says that something like a base blowing up, or that a million things are threats to them. Hell the story says t hat Blowing up master materia wouldn't release enough force to blow up an asteroid.

    If summons and such were this powerful someone just use Bahamut on Meteor.

    I choose to place these things as just gameplay fun, and fancy skins over spell effects because otherwise the story completely falls apart.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    Also not every glowy-beam shoots at the speed of light. The guardian beams are very fast, but not light-speed and you can tell because there is a flash of light as the beam comes out that YOU CAN SEE before the beam hits you. It's glowy-explody energy that moves fast, that's not always a laser in fantasy even if colloquially we call it that.
    The sad thing is that they could've timed the turret blasts. There is a level in Breath of the Wild where the turrets are far enough from Link that there's a measurable delay between the flash and the impact.

    Also, from the sheer fact that I as a player am capable of reacting to the cue to deflect those damn blasts, it's easy to tell that the reaction speed necessary to deal with them is upwards of 150 milliseconds - in range of normal human reaction times, that is. This too could be measured.

    It just shows that when Death Battle has to choose between real research and exaggerated nonsense, the choice is quick and easy to make.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Honestly, I have never, ever felt in danger by anything in the game aside from the optional bosses. Nothing is a threat in the game, even the final boss isnt hard. Like, maybe fighting the first scorpion robot boss is dangerous if you utterly ignore the instruction to not attack him when his tail is up, but yeah, nothing is actually dangerous in the game but the Weapons. Oh wait, the midgardian serpent thing is dangerous the first time you see one. I take it back. But yeah, most of the game is spent casually strolling through armies of mooks and casually obliterating any boss that shows up. I didnt buy the strategy guide to help me beat the game, i bought it to find where all the secret items and such were.
    .... you either super gang up on the Tomberry... or it one shots someone on your team, no questions asked. Added in that he can flat out ignore the turn order in some versions of him and just straight murder you.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    .... you either super gang up on the Tomberry... or it one shots someone on your team, no questions asked. Added in that he can flat out ignore the turn order in some versions of him and just straight murder you.
    Yeah I read about that but never really faced it. I tended to casually destroy every mook in the game, tomberry included. I only experienced it once when I literally sat there and let it attack me to see it for myself. Maybe because by the time I got to 7 the rpg grind style playing was firmly embedded in me. I was at max level by the time I faced sephiroth in my first playthrough. I generally always am when it comes to ff games and final bosses. I didnt have stuff like kotr, so it was just a slog, not a challenge, to beat him. (God getting the golden chocobo when i finally decided to go for it was obnoxious)
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Also, from the sheer fact that I as a player am capable of reacting to the cue to deflect those damn blasts, it's easy to tell that the reaction speed necessary to deal with them is upwards of 150 milliseconds - in range of normal human reaction times, that is. This too could be measured.
    Guys Vahnavoi can react at light speed. Feats confirmed.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Well, hold on. I can deflect those lasers too. Are we sure lightspeed is even all that fast, if allegedly normal people can casually exceed it in real life?

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