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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Various monsters and evil knights exist that wield swords. And I can't think of any swordfight that Link canonically loses. Not to say one doesn't exist though.
    That may not be the main series Link, but in Wind Waker Ganondorf slaps Link around without any trouble the first time they meet.
    The second time, he can still block all of Link's attacks without looking and only loses because of Zelda's arrow distracting him.

    Also, in BOTW Link got overrun and lost a fight. True, it took an army of Guardians, but he did collapse uselessly after it and was only saved because of Zelda.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Wind Waker is a main series game, but importantly that Link is not...Link. He's just a poor island boy who wants to save his sister, no grand destiny or lineage spanning time whatsoever. He doesn't have whatever juice the Triforce of Courage gives the "real" Links.

  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Wind Waker is a main series game, but importantly that Link is not...Link. He's just a poor island boy who wants to save his sister, no grand destiny or lineage spanning time whatsoever. He doesn't have whatever juice the Triforce of Courage gives the "real" Links.
    Yeah from what I remember the wind waker kid isn't a Link.

    Also most versions of link are trained swordsmen.

    Zelda 1&2 Link's a trained merc adventuring
    Link to the past, raised by his master swordsman uncle to carry on the family tradition

    Occarina of time, well that link starts out young and never really learns too much but is just talanted, and lives to beccome a master swordsman

    You have Skyward sword link who is a prodigy student at a knight training academy

    Hyrule warriors, where he's the top soldier in the Hylian army.

    Various incarnations have more or less training than others. And train in different ways.
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  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKarious View Post
    That may not be the main series Link, but in Wind Waker Ganondorf slaps Link around without any trouble the first time they meet.
    The second time, he can still block all of Link's attacks without looking and only loses because of Zelda's arrow distracting him.

    Also, in BOTW Link got overrun and lost a fight. True, it took an army of Guardians, but he did collapse uselessly after it and was only saved because of Zelda.
    True, though Wind Waker Link is explicitly not a reincarnate.


    That's not really a swordfight though.
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  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    True, though Wind Waker Link is explicitly not a reincarnate.


    That's not really a swordfight though.
    What on earth? Wind Waker Link isn't a "real" link because he's not a reincarnated version? Did the cinematic in Hyrule Castle not matter? Or maybe him wielding the Master Sword doesn't matter? Or maybe that bit where he fights & kills Ganondorf? That doesn't qualify him as a Link?

    Link in Wind Waker is Link. Are we really playing No True ScotsLink here to justify this "never lost a swordfight" thing?

  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    So from what is being said, Link's good with a sword but no Sword Saint. And who called him in game a master swordsman, or is this more fan dubs? Add on that several versions of him is being called a master when he's the equivalent to a hunter and I'm just...

    Some version of Link are trained killers. Some aren't. Is the average going to be taken or the max?

  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    So from what is being said, Link's good with a sword but no Sword Saint. And who called him in game a master swordsman, or is this more fan dubs? Add on that several versions of him is being called a master when he's the equivalent to a hunter and I'm just...

    Some version of Link are trained killers. Some aren't. Is the average going to be taken or the max?
    Most versions of Link regularly fight other good swordsmen like darknuts and such, so I think 'master' is generally appropriate. For a death battle i imagine we'd take the best version.

    However I think we're also discussing a link free-for-all? In which case I'm not sure one version having some extra sword techniques would matter as much as a version having invincibility items or kill-spells.

  8. - Top - End - #428
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    What on earth? Wind Waker Link isn't a "real" link because he's not a reincarnated version? Did the cinematic in Hyrule Castle not matter? Or maybe him wielding the Master Sword doesn't matter? Or maybe that bit where he fights & kills Ganondorf? That doesn't qualify him as a Link?

    Link in Wind Waker is Link. Are we really playing No True ScotsLink here to justify this "never lost a swordfight" thing?
    If Link gains any skills and abilities from being a reincarnate (which might not be clear, but it is certainly a possibility) than the Wind Waker Link didn't get any of those skills/abilities nor can he pass them on to future Links. Therefore his feats can't be used for other Links. Nor does his lack of swordsmanship reflect on other Links.
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  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    If Link gains any skills and abilities from being a reincarnate (which might not be clear, but it is certainly a possibility) than the Wind Waker Link didn't get any of those skills/abilities nor can he pass them on to future Links. Therefore his feats can't be used for other Links. Nor does his lack of swordsmanship reflect on other Links.
    Ö. Unless Wind Waker gets the same treatment as Twilight Princess.. right?

  10. - Top - End - #430
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Because he's a master swordsman who has relearned each time? Sometimes Link learns over the course of the game (Twilight Princess, Wind Waker, Skyward Sword), sometimes he has mastered the skill before the game starts (Breath of the Wild), but its one of the consistent skills that every link has by the end of every game.
    ..Well, Link wields a sword, anyways. If you go with the actual games most of his 'master swordsmanship' consists of A: Waiting for whatever he's fighting to make a hugely telegraphed over-committed attack, and then stabbing it in the back while its sword is stuck in the ground/it looks around trying to figure out where Link went after he did a side-hop out of the line of the charge, B: flailing wildly on enormous monsters while they are temporarily stunned by (arrow/bomb/giant hammer/flashbang/Item Of The Week) to the face where the quality of swordsmanship is basically irrelevant, and C: Spinning around in a circle with his sword held out until he gets too dizzy to continue. It's not exactly virtuoso demonstrations of the art of fencing - Link's 'skill' as a swordsman would be almost completely an informed attribute, and I would bet a lot of it is from supplementary material outside the actual games (much like how Cloud being a capable warrior is mostly informed and not shown, because FF7 original lacks the capability to show him actually fighting or performing feats of physical prowess outside of a few seconds in animated cutscenes.)

    If we're running with mainline Zelda games, Wind Waker Link is probably *more* capable in combat in most, because the cartoony style and the quicktime actions you can take against opponents let you do things the control scheme of most of the Zelda games doesn't permit - Wind Waker Link can perceive an opening in his opponents defenses, smoothly go into a diving roll to get completely around the enemy, spring up into a Dragon Punch slash to cut all the straps holding the opponent's armor on, and land ready to continue fighting without a pause, all in a single smooth motion. (And I know Death Battle considers these quicktime interactions to be true capabilities, because it's a huge part of why they think Kingdom Hearts is ludicrously overpowered..)

  11. - Top - End - #431
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    ..Well, Link wields a sword, anyways. If you go with the actual games most of his 'master swordsmanship' consists of A: Waiting for whatever he's fighting to make a hugely telegraphed over-committed attack, and then stabbing it in the back while its sword is stuck in the ground/it looks around trying to figure out where Link went after he did a side-hop out of the line of the charge, B: flailing wildly on enormous monsters while they are temporarily stunned by (arrow/bomb/giant hammer/flashbang/Item Of The Week) to the face where the quality of swordsmanship is basically irrelevant, and C: Spinning around in a circle with his sword held out until he gets too dizzy to continue. It's not exactly virtuoso demonstrations of the art of fencing - Link's 'skill' as a swordsman would be almost completely an informed attribute, and I would bet a lot of it is from supplementary material outside the actual games (much like how Cloud being a capable warrior is mostly informed and not shown, because FF7 original lacks the capability to show him actually fighting or performing feats of physical prowess outside of a few seconds in animated cutscenes.)

    If we're running with mainline Zelda games, Wind Waker Link is probably *more* capable in combat in most, because the cartoony style and the quicktime actions you can take against opponents let you do things the control scheme of most of the Zelda games doesn't permit - Wind Waker Link can perceive an opening in his opponents defenses, smoothly go into a diving roll to get completely around the enemy, spring up into a Dragon Punch slash to cut all the straps holding the opponent's armor on, and land ready to continue fighting without a pause, all in a single smooth motion. (And I know Death Battle considers these quicktime interactions to be true capabilities, because it's a huge part of why they think Kingdom Hearts is ludicrously overpowered..)
    This is more of why I said heís a hunter compared to a master swordsman and asked what his fight record looked like. Robin Hood was a monster with a bow and can hunt any animal, but he also served in a military and was a trained killer. Self taught only goes so far. Even Bruce Lee received formal training before being declared a master.

  12. - Top - End - #432
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Ö. Unless Wind Waker gets the same treatment as Twilight Princess.. right?
    There's no hard canon (as far as I know anyways) on what being a reincarnate means. My personal headcanon is that it means they basically have an extreme amount of talent for the various skills the Links of the past have, and it is why they can learn swordfighting in a lesson or two from a ghost while having lived as a peasant farmer their whole life.
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  13. - Top - End - #433
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    There's no hard canon (as far as I know anyways) on what being a reincarnate means. My personal headcanon is that it means they basically have an extreme amount of talent for the various skills the Links of the past have, and it is why they can learn swordfighting in a lesson or two from a ghost while having lived as a peasant farmer their whole life.
    That headcanon would include WindWaker and twilight princess Links, since they show those skills, even though both arenít Link, and goes against the ďlack of an Ur-LinkĒ that was mentioned earlier. On top of that, itís been proven that the Hero and the character the player is controlling isnít the same person all the time, and in some instances both exist at the same time. Itís starting to look like a few games that had a connection was tossed together and forced to have a timeline. Guess itís fine that Linkís opponent is Cloud, since Final Fantasy also has a timeline (Thank you Tactics and Vagrant Story).

  14. - Top - End - #434
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    This is more of why I said heís a hunter compared to a master swordsman and asked what his fight record looked like. Robin Hood was a monster with a bow and can hunt any animal, but he also served in a military and was a trained killer. Self taught only goes so far. Even Bruce Lee received formal training before being declared a master.
    Several Links are members of the military, or trained knights. Others are experienced mercenaries. They all are granted the triforce abilities. But only some of them have combat training before the games begin. Some have years of training, while others are talented amatures .
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    That headcanon would include WindWaker and twilight princess Links, since they show those skills, even though both arenít Link, and goes against the ďlack of an Ur-LinkĒ that was mentioned earlier. On top of that, itís been proven that the Hero and the character the player is controlling isnít the same person all the time, and in some instances both exist at the same time. Itís starting to look like a few games that had a connection was tossed together and forced to have a timeline. Guess itís fine that Linkís opponent is Cloud, since Final Fantasy also has a timeline (Thank you Tactics and Vagrant Story).
    When it comes to Death Battle, I want them to pick a Link and stick with it. When it comes to canon, I've told you what I remember.

    Though Twilight Princess Link isn't a reincarnate? I don't remember that.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Several Links are members of the military, or trained knights. Others are experienced mercenaries. They all are granted the triforce abilities. But only some of them have combat training before the games begin. Some have years of training, while others are talented amatures .
    And none of them have boosted abilities from being a reincarnated Hero. Saying some do have formal training and some donít,with all of them different people, literally, your options are to say they are all Link and make them a composite for battles, or to just pick one and run with it. Itís not like Superman, who had dozens of writers over the years. Itís more or less a title in this case. Closest you can get to a Link with better than average stats is Twilight since heís a direct descendant on top of being a Hero in his own right. Could be his family became legendary for their swordsmanship and passed it down. But thatís speculation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    When it comes to Death Battle, I want them to pick a Link and stick with it. When it comes to canon, I've told you what I remember.
    With nothing to show for what exactly it means to be a reincarnated Hero, let alone if itís being used properly (from what I read, translations of the Japanese historia has aonuma saying itís spirit as in A spirit, not THE spirit), I have to agree.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    And none of them have boosted abilities from being a reincarnated Hero. Saying some do have formal training and some donít,with all of them different people, literally, your options are to say they are all Link and make them a composite for battles, or to just pick one and run with it. Itís not like Superman, who had dozens of writers over the years. Itís more or less a title in this case. Closest you can get to a Link with better than average stats is Twilight since heís a direct descendant on top of being a Hero in his own right. Could be his family became legendary for their swordsmanship and passed it down. But thatís speculation.


    With nothing to show for what exactly it means to be a reincarnated Hero, let alone if itís being used properly (from what I read, translations of the Japanese historia has aonuma saying itís spirit as in A spirit, not THE spirit), I have to agree.
    I've been saying from the very beginning that this is why they shouldn't composite him.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I've been saying from the very beginning that this is why they shouldn't composite him.
    I see. Alas, they did it before and I have no doubt they can do it again

  19. - Top - End - #439
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    I'd say out of all the various different Links, Twilight Princess link is the least skilled.

    Wind waker Link isn't a Link, but he did train in swordsmanship
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    And none of them have boosted abilities from being a reincarnated Hero. Saying some do have formal training and some donít,with all of them different people, literally, your options are to say they are all Link and make them a composite for battles, or to just pick one and run with it. Itís not like Superman, who had dozens of writers over the years. Itís more or less a title in this case. Closest you can get to a Link with better than average stats is Twilight since heís a direct descendant on top of being a Hero in his own right. Could be his family became legendary for their swordsmanship and passed it down. But thatís speculation.
    BotW Link has canonically amazed other veteran warriors with his feats of skill and endurance. There are in-game accounts of him eating molten rock, one-shotting a Guardian by parrying its laser with a pot lid, etc.* That's on top of his super-climbing skills, and having special attacks for multiple weapon types.

    * Which Death Battle will presumably take as Link moving faster than light (and having magic eyeballs that don't rely on light to see).

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I'd say out of all the various different Links, Twilight Princess link is the least skilled.
    Far from it. He inherited all the techniques of an older, more experienced version of OoT Link (which includes all of WW Link's tricks other than the impractical Hurricane Spin, as well as stuff like shield bashes and iai strikes). He's also the only Link to defeat Ganondorf in a one-on-one swordfight. EDIT: He's also the only Link trained in wrestling.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2021-06-12 at 07:28 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #441
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I'd say out of all the various different Links, Twilight Princess link is the least skilled.

    Wind waker Link isn't a Link, but he did train in swordsmanship
    Twilight was trained by a Hero though as well as a direct descendant. Maybe that should count for something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    BotW Link has canonically amazed other veteran warriors with his feats of skill and endurance. There are in-game accounts of him eating molten rock, one-shotting a Guardian by parrying its laser with a pot lid, etc.* That's on top of his super-climbing skills, and having special attacks for multiple weapon types.

    * Which Death Battle will presumably take as Link moving faster than light (and having magic eyeballs that don't rely on light to see).
    Thatís one link out of dozens for starters, and did any of those veterans proclaim him to be a master, or is that fanslation?


    Edit: and about eating the ďmolten rocksĒ. When? He ate rock roast before, and they made an in game joke about him being speechless but we have no idea what condition it was in or if itís a true rock. We also donít know if his expanded pallet is from the fact that heÖ you knowÖ was DEAD at the start of the game.
    Last edited by HolyDraconus; 2021-06-12 at 07:28 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #442
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Twilight was trained by a Hero though as well as a direct descendant. Maybe that should count for something?


    Thatís one link out of dozens for starters, and did any of those veterans proclaim him to be a master, or is that fanslation?


    Edit: and about eating the ďmolten rocksĒ. When? He ate rock roast before, and they made an in game joke about him being speechless but we have no idea what condition it was in or if itís a true rock. We also donít know if his expanded pallet is from the fact that heÖ you knowÖ was DEAD at the start of the game.
    Proboaly. If I was comparing Links, that might matter a little. Though I'd expect the equipment differences to matter more.

    He was declared champion for a reason, and I believe he was considered to be the strongest of the champions. He wasn't the usual 'random kid of destiny' that other Links are. People knew who he was and he was considered to have earned his spot. Though Ravoi thought he was better than Link, so they likely never really fought.
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  23. - Top - End - #443
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Various monsters and evil knights exist that wield swords. And I can't think of any swordfight that Link canonically loses. Not to say one doesn't exist though.
    The Fallen Timeline (if we're even still doing those anymore) happens if Link loses in Ocarina of Time. It isn't clear when, but most people assume it's during the fight against Beast Ganon because in all the other* Fallen timeline games Ganondorf is in his beast form from game start to game end. Seems like Fallen Timeline Ganon never learned how to turn off his pig.

    *I'm sure someone will have an exception

    Now if we were throwing all the Links into an arena, it would be tough to say. Pre-HD Wind Waker Link with Magic Armor and four bottles of Grandma's Soup could do a pretty good job of a war of attrition, but then so could an Ocarina of Time Link with Nayru's Love and a couple of potions, too. And since neither one nullifies knockback the invincibility items don't stop BOTW Link from freezing them in time and throwing them into lava.

    I mean, depending on how many game mechanics we're incorporating, in all of the games Link is literally incapable of inflicting injury to anything other than monsters, and I believe the only Hylian we've ever seen his sword make contact with was Orca. Who was fine. And Twilight Princess Link can slash and stab a Goron in the stomach and throw him into lava over and over again and leave that goron with a tummy-ache, but none the worse for wear. Obviously Link is only capable of truly harming manifestations of Demise's evil, and therefore can never win any death battle with any creature outside of his own universe. We never see him kill anything that is not a monster, therefore we cannot conclude that he is capable of doing so.

    Oh wait, in Skyward Sword you can kill bugs by stepping on them or blowing them up.

    Never-mind.
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    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  24. - Top - End - #444
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    They confirmed something really important for the fight in a Youtube community post. A detail about the fight of the utmost importance.

    Spoiler: Upcoming fight
    Show
    SWORD FIGHTS ON MOTORCYCLES!

    That is all. Continue.

  25. - Top - End - #445
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    right behind you

    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Harumph, in any FAIR analysis, they would point out that link cant even kill a chicken with the master sword. He just makes them angry. Clearly his arms are limp pasta noodles and his sword is particularly dull Styrofoam. Link isnt some legendary hero, he is Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes. Has an incredible imagination, but when he returns to town and has to deal with the real world, he is powerless. This is his version of spaceman spiff, going off on adventures with his magic sword and bombs blowing up evil and saving the world with his triforce of courage.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  26. - Top - End - #446
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Harumph, in any FAIR analysis, they would point out that link cant even kill a chicken with the master sword. He just makes them angry. Clearly his arms are limp pasta noodles and his sword is particularly dull Styrofoam. Link isnt some legendary hero, he is Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes. Has an incredible imagination, but when he returns to town and has to deal with the real world, he is powerless. This is his version of spaceman spiff, going off on adventures with his magic sword and bombs blowing up evil and saving the world with his triforce of courage.
    Thats not Link's fault though, NOBODY can kill the cucoos.
    ďEvil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.Ē

  27. - Top - End - #447
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Thats not Link's fault though, NOBODY can kill the cucoos.
    In Breath of the Wild, throwing Cuccos at enemies so they accidentally hit them is possible. Hilarity ensues. And death by Cucco to the enemy.

  28. - Top - End - #448
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Technically, BotW did some disservice to Link as well, by firmly establishing that the Master Sword can be broken.

  29. - Top - End - #449
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Technically, BotW did some disservice to Link as well, by firmly establishing that the Master Sword can be broken.
    To be fair, how old is that thing at that point?
    Sacred artifact against the powers of darkness or not, at some point the eons leave their mark on everyone.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

    Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der tršumenden BŁcher")



  30. - Top - End - #450
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Technically, BotW did some disservice to Link as well, by firmly establishing that the Master Sword can be broken.
    Wind Waker already established that, though not quite in the same way.
    ďEvil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.Ē

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