DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

[Lemmy]

The character owned by the same company who owns Machinima won... Who could have foreseen it...

[Rynjin]

Po is certainly stronger than a regular panda. He belly-slammed Tai Lung into the sky, and is durable enough to take similar hits. That said he isn't city-destroyer level, which it sounds like Iron Fist can surpass with his max feats.

Can Iron Fist interact with the spirit realm at all? Po can send people there, so it will probably come up in the fight.

IIRC he's able to punch ghosts in Breathless, but I don't remember exactly.

[TeChameleon]

Hrm. The Spirit Realm thing is a good question- John Aman, the Prince of Orphans and the eldest of the Immortal Weapons (of whom Iron Fist is one) states fairly bluntly that Iron Fist would be largely helpless against a legion of ghosts (which were stated to be in the spirit realm, I think) that the two of them had to stop (so Danny ended up having to fight an airliner-sized giant dragon instead ), and he'd be in a position to know (that was in one of the Immortal Iron Fist TPBs).

In terms of feats, the two most extreme that I'm aware of involved the Iron Fist using chi-enhanced speed and strikes to inflate a kinetic-energy-absorbing-roughly-humanoid monster to the size of a small skyscraper, and then slice the thing's foot clean off with a knife-hand strike (while stating that he was cutting its achilles tendon, which I guess he technically was, but that's still kind of underselling things, Danny) and punching one of SHIELD's big Helicarriers out of the sky with one shot (both of these, it should be noted, were done without the white-and-gold power boost, as far as I know). He's knocking down buildings on the regular (in fact, his introduction to Luke Cage was punching Luke through a building that promptly fell down on top of him), and catching bullets, both (sniper?) rifle rounds and full-auto spray, without any sign of exertion.

Oddly, one of Iron Fist's rarely-used and lesser known powers may end up taking this for him if Death Battle decides to go that way- while he could probably straight overpower Po, he's got a hypno-fist ability that he could bust out, and Po, as far as I can recall, has never shown the slightest resistance to mind control or anything like that.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Po does have that instakill finger technique, but that would probably require him to be roughly on the same speed level as Iron Fist. Po can catch cannon shot, but Iron Fist can apparently catch a bullet fired at point blank range. That's a very large but maybe not insurmountable difference in speed; if Po is durable enough to tank hits for a while he might be able to take this.

My money is on Iron Fist, though, barring Spirit World shenanigans.

[HolyDraconus]

Wait, isn’t Po flat out immortal if he’s not killed in the spirit world?

[McNum]

And the battle is up!

Spoiler: This time...

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And it's a win for the panda! Who sorta can't die, apparently. That seems like cheating for a Death Battle.

Spoiler: Next time...

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It's Steven Universe (from Steven Universe) vs. Star Butterfly (from Star vs the Forces of Evil)!

I haven't followed those, but considering I didn't notice when it swapped from one show to the other in the previews, I have a feeling it might be a close one.

It also feels like a fan requested one.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler: This time...

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And it's a win for the panda! Who sorta can't die, apparently. That seems like cheating for a Death Battle.

Wait, isn’t Po flat out immortal if he’s not killed in the spirit world?

Yea... I guess that was a thing.

Spoiler: Next time...

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It's Steven Universe (from Steven Universe) vs. Star Butterfly (from Star vs the Forces of Evil)!

I haven't followed those, but considering I didn't notice when it swapped from one show to the other in the previews, I have a feeling it might be a close one.

It also feels like a fan requested one.

I haven't followed Steven since the older series ended, so his teen feats I aint got a clue on. But from what I remember, he's not much of a fighter. Maybe when his humanity was separated from his gem? That thing looked like it could fight. Either way, I remember that a lot of his strength in the series came from others, or more specifically fusions. Again, that could of changed when he became a teen.

[hungrycrow]

Spoiler: Next Time

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If we're including Future Steven this isn't even close. He 's fast enough to break things in his wake and strong enough to smash through an anvil all without even trying. His corrupted form is a match for every character on the show, including the other overpowered diamonds.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: This time

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Once we saw the meteor comparison, I figured this one was done. Po maybe being immortal was just the icing on top. Surprise though, I think the consensus here was a win for Iron Fist.

Spoiler: Next time

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I don't know Steven Universe, but Star is actually a fighter, and a not half bad one, despite how goofy her spells may be. So she's got a lot of examples of her fighting to take from.

[Traab]

Spoiler: This time

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Once we saw the meteor comparison, I figured this one was done. Po maybe being immortal was just the icing on top. Surprise though, I think the consensus here was a win for Iron Fist.

Spoiler: Next time

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I don't know Steven Universe, but Star is actually a fighter, and a not half bad one, despite how goofy her spells may be. So she's got a lot of examples of her fighting to take from.

Generally speaking,

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comics win compared to other forms of media. The visual display of amazing moves, often with little consideration over how powerful the character would have to be to pull it off, combined with usually decades of power creep and one off scenarios, tends to skew things in favor of comics, cartoons are just a potential exception because cartoon logic can be even crazier than comic logic.

[Rater202]

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I'm gonna call a load of horse crap for them acknowledging Po's immortality, on the grounds that they never acknowledge immortality for anyone else. Like say, the fact that Ryuko's regen is absolute and pasting her woulnd't work any more than trying to kill Herr Captain without silver would.

The only other time I think that counted was Thanos v Darkseid, where Thanos killed Darkseid but then they had him fight the comic principle that Darkseid is an aspect of, Thanos lost, and they had that count as Darkseid winning.

If they're counting Po's immortality then they need to go back and redo a hell of a lot of fights.

I haven't followed Steven since the older series ended, so his teen feats I aint got a clue on. But from what I remember, he's not much of a fighter. Maybe when his humanity was separated from his gem? That thing looked like it could fight. Either way, I remember that a lot of his strength in the series came from others, or more specifically fusions. Again, that could of changed when he became a teen.

Steven starts learning combat from Jasper in order to deal with his building up aggression(TL/DR, he's got some major PTSD and it acts up like crazy once his friends start moving away because he never learned how to deal with normal stress and subconsciously thinks that every little thing is the end of the world. Not a problem when i's an actual emergency since he knows how to deal with those, but...)

Steven then shatters Jasper by accident.

And then he brings her back to life.

This is what finally convinces Jasper to acknowledge him as Pink Diamond.

Steven is a powerhouse. As a diamond, he's the weakest diamond, but he's still a diamond. Diamonds are basically gods and it's implied that they're not made the same way that other Gems are.

His biggest asset is probably his healing factor. This seems to be a unique trait of his hybrid physiology since Gem's don't need this, but... So we all thought that Steven had superhuman toughness.

Turns out no, he does not. He just heals fast enough that anything short of an injury that would kill a normal human is healed fast enough that he doesn't have time to bleed or register pain. When his powers go on the fritz, Priyanka runs a full physical and takes some X-Rays and his skeleton is covered in lines from where his bones broke and healed but he just never noticed.

...Which makes things like the black eye that Jasper gave him at the end of season 1 seem... How bad a hit was that that it didn't heal right away.

[Rynjin]

They'll basically use any horse**** to justify a Marvel character losing. I'm not even mad at this point, at least they're consistent.

[Rater202]

They'll basically use any horse**** to justify a Marvel character losing. I'm not even mad at this point, at least they're consistent.

Ntice that Marvel wins most of their matchups... But most of their matchups are situations where it's pretty much impossible to argue the opponent winning.

[KatsOfLoathing]

Spoiler: Next Time

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Next one has a lot of different levers that could influence things. Both characters are from relatively long-running cartoons and have lots of feats to their names, so there's a lot of material to draw from and I might miss some of it, but...

On the physical, close-combat side of things, I'd probably give it to Steven. Both characters have demonstrated superhuman strength (unclear on which is stronger exactly), and Star is actually a trained hand-to-hand fighter, but Stephen is also superhumanly fast (up to Flash-like bullet-time speed at full power), capable of flight, and, as Rater mentioned, has downright insane regeneration. He can also create energy shields capable of sustaining energy-blast impacts comparable to heavy artillery, and by the end of the series he's gotten good enough with them to wield them like brass knuckles. His major downfalls are his tendency to fight defensively and not having genuine combat training like Star does, but I'm not sure how carefully DB is gonna view those aspects. Star, by the end of her series, demonstrates the ability to form a massive Gundam-esque energy suit to fight in, but it's tiring for her and isn't designed for fighting human-size opponents so I doubt it'll help here.

In terms of ranged combat and overall destructive power... depending on how it's ruled, Star might have the edge. Her basic offensive spells are capable of injuring and knocking back borderline-invulnerable magical beings, and she can cast them at rates comparable to automatic firearms. Stephen's capacity at range is limited to firing his barriers like Invisible Woman, but they're not very fast, and that ultimate attack he used to kill Jasper took at least ten seconds of windup and only worked in the first place because the target was immobilized. Star also knows a lot of weird and esoteric spells outside of conventional "blow up the target", and can make up more on the fly. And if DB rules that she also knows and can cast the spells created by her mother and ancestors, which she theoretically can in canon... her offensive capacity multiples several times over, including spells that can punch holes in mountains from miles away, destroy magic itself, and slay explicitly immortal beings. Given that Stephen is both partially made of magic and reliant on his Diamond regeneration for durability, that might give Star what she needs for a finishing blow.

Oh, and both of them have power-up forms associated with a color that amp up their attributes and provide flight capabilities -- Stephen with his Pink Diamond form, Star with her Golden Butterfly form. I imagine the conclusion of the battle will probably be determined by which of those is stronger.

[Forum Explorer]

Steven starts learning combat from Jasper in order to deal with his building up aggression(TL/DR, he's got some major PTSD and it acts up like crazy once his friends start moving away because he never learned how to deal with normal stress and subconsciously thinks that every little thing is the end of the world. Not a problem when i's an actual emergency since he knows how to deal with those, but...)

Steven then shatters Jasper by accident.

And then he brings her back to life.

This is what finally convinces Jasper to acknowledge him as Pink Diamond.

Steven is a powerhouse. As a diamond, he's the weakest diamond, but he's still a diamond. Diamonds are basically gods and it's implied that they're not made the same way that other Gems are.

His biggest asset is probably his healing factor. This seems to be a unique trait of his hybrid physiology since Gem's don't need this, but... So we all thought that Steven had superhuman toughness.

Turns out no, he does not. He just heals fast enough that anything short of an injury that would kill a normal human is healed fast enough that he doesn't have time to bleed or register pain. When his powers go on the fritz, Priyanka runs a full physical and takes some X-Rays and his skeleton is covered in lines from where his bones broke and healed but he just never noticed.

...Which makes things like the black eye that Jasper gave him at the end of season 1 seem... How bad a hit was that that it didn't heal right away.

KatsofLoathing brings up a really good point of transitive properties. Star is a genius at magic and can cast basically any spell, including those that can explicitly kill immortal beings. In fact, she nearly obliterates one such being after they had corrupted magic itself, fully regained their immortality, and shook off basically any other attack thrown at them. So Steven's healing isn't going to be able to win this one, Star's already shown the ability to surpass that.

[HolyDraconus]

Does Steven have the Diamond emotional manipulation thing that the others have? Like how blue can make everyone cry etc? mental warfare and all that.

[Rater202]

KatsofLoathing brings up a really good point of transitive properties. Star is a genius at magic and can cast basically any spell, including those that can explicitly kill immortal beings. In fact, she nearly obliterates one such being after they had corrupted magic itself, fully regained their immortality, and shook off basically any other attack thrown at them. So Steven's healing isn't going to be able to win this one, Star's already shown the ability to surpass that.

Yeah, that's a fair read.

Another factor we need to consider is whether they'll let Steven have support party members:

A significant portion of not only Steven but the Crystal Gem's in general's repertoire in combat is Cross-Gem fusion.

To give a summary for the non-Universe Fans; Gems, being a sapient mineral operating a form made of Hard Light, can merge their bodies together and link their minds. How well this works out depends on how in synch they are emotionally: Bad things happen if you unsynch after fusing.

Until recently, Homeworld Gems only fused among their own exact caste and only as needed, creating a bigger, stronger member of that caste(two or more rubies becoming a bigger ruby) but during the Crystal Gem Rebellon a random Ruby attempted to save the Saphire she was set to guard from being damaged and they accidentally fused into a being who was exponentially stronger than her components.

This being Garnet, one of the main characters, and one o the first proper recruits to the rebellion.

The Cystal Gems fuse among themselves not only to become more powerful, but as expressions of their relationships. Cross Gem fusions are more than the sums of their respective parts, having distinct personalities of their own in in addition to being combinations of the traits of their components.

Steven has 5 Fusions: Stevonnie, a unique fusion between himself and Connie, a human girl, which represents their friendship and budding romance. Smokey Quartz, his fusion with AMythest who represents their siblinglike relationship and bond over their respective insecurities. Rainbow 2.0 with Pearl(Rainbow Quartz, referred to this way to maintain a distinct persona from Rose Quartz/Pink Diamond's fusion with Pearl) and Sunstone, his fusion with Garnet... Who aren't really explored that well but Pearl's relationship with Pearl and Garnet are most like parents and a child, and Steg, Seven's fusion with his human father which represents a parental bond.

There's also Obsidian, but Obsidian is less Steven's fusion and more a fusion of the Four Main Crystal Gems who only come out when the situation is dire.

If Screw Attack lets Steven fuse, that drastically ups his arsenal: Stronnie is a stronger, more skilled Steven that adds Connie's intelligence, athleticism, and swordsmanship skills to the mix. Smokey Quartz is surprisingly fast with a powerful and highly versatile weapon. Rainbow 2.0 is basically a masculine Mary Poppins with a touch of the Doctor. Sunstone is just... Absurdly strong. Absurdly strong and stereotypically 90s cool.

Steg not so much. Granted, Steven wasn't exactly in the best circumstances when he and his father formed Steg, but Steg's showing indicates that he's more of a "God of Rock" than a fighter.

[KatsOfLoathing]

Does Steven have the Diamond emotional manipulation thing that the others have? Like how blue can make everyone cry etc? mental warfare and all that.

That's an explicitly Blue Diamond power that none of the other Diamonds have. Blue Diamond controls emotions, White Diamond directly overrides minds, Yellow Diamond controls inorganic materials (extending to the bodies of Gems, letting her reshape or destroy them at will), and Pink Diamond/Steven controls organic life (e.g. his healing and plant-growing powers).

Gems in general and Steven in specific have really varied power-sets, though, and Steven does have some esoteric mental/empathic abilities, including projecting his thoughts through technology and a weird form of astral projection that lets him speak to and sometimes possess others while asleep, but he doesn't have full control over them. Actually, outside of his barriers, healing, and flight Steven really doesn't have full control over any of his powers. Which I guess works as another parallel to Star, who often creates new spells on the fly with no concept of what they can do or how powerful they are.

[theNater]

I haven't followed Steven since the older series ended, so his teen feats I aint got a clue on. But from what I remember, he's not much of a fighter.

It's easy to forget because he doesn't like to fight, but he beat Bismuth pretty handily. His training with Pearl really paid off.

Steven...can also create energy shields capable of sustaining energy-blast impacts comparable to heavy artillery...

Recall also that in his mother's hands, his energy shield deflected a blast intended to wipe out all life on Earth.

Does Steven have the Diamond emotional manipulation thing that the others have? Like how blue can make everyone cry etc? mental warfare and all that.

He seems to have a passive empathy power. He's also been known to engage in telepathy and mind-control, but only while unconscious, so it's probably not going to help.

[TeChameleon]

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Huh. Can't really fault the ending the way they presented the fight, but Danny fought kinda dumb compared to his usual, and it's an odd scenario where I think it could be argued that while Po's ultimate form/technique was stronger than Iron' Fist's burning skeleton thingy, baseline Iron Fist was stronger than baseline Po- at the very least, I really wouldn't have expected non-chi-armoured Po to facetank a Nuke, which Danny can basically throw around willy-nilly.

It's one of those odd things where Death Battle prefers to end things with characters at their absolute peak and in their strongest alternate form, even in scenarios where that takes a fight that might otherwise be relatively even and skews wildly in one direction or the other

... and as a random aside, I found it rather interesting that they actually acknowledged Danny's hypno-fist, although Po being able to shake it off thanks to a cartoon-only feat I didn't know of prevented it from being the game-ender I half-expected.

Nest time... eh. Far more familiar with Star than I am with Steven, so I doubt I have any useful opinions regarding feats.

[Traab]

Honestly, mind control abilities might as well be auto excluded. Not because they are unfair, but because it seems like virtually every character has faced and overcome such abilities. Admittedly not always, I think the shadow/mewtwo fight had mind control abilities help take the win, but in general when one side has mind control the other has proven they can break or ignore it.

[Forum Explorer]

Honestly, mind control abilities might as well be auto excluded. Not because they are unfair, but because it seems like virtually every character has faced and overcome such abilities. Admittedly not always, I think the shadow/mewtwo fight had mind control abilities help take the win, but in general when one side has mind control the other has proven they can break or ignore it.

For comic book characters anyways. Shaking off mind control does tend to be a little more rarer in other mediums.

[Iamyourking]

My research suggests an absolute stomp in Star's favor. Offensively she's Universal to his-at best-Solar System, her defense is comparable to her offense, and she's got much more versatility. He's faster but not by a huge margin, and while she can't match his regeneration the sheer difference in power makes it negligible.

[Dragonus45]

My research suggests an absolute stomp in Star's favor. Offensively she's Universal to his-at best-Solar System, her defense is comparable to her offense, and she's got much more versatility. He's faster but not by a huge margin, and while she can't match his regeneration the sheer difference in power makes it negligible.

I'm inclined to agree but DB has a habit of over emphasizing regenerative power.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm inclined to agree but DB has a habit of over emphasizing regenerative power.

It didn't help Ryuko or Wolverine.

[Rater202]

It didn't help Ryuko or Wolverine.

If anything, they underemphasized Ryuko's regenerative powers. Pasting her would not work. It just... Pasting her is not much more thorough than the kinds of things that Ragyo tried against her in that final fight.

[Dragonus45]

It didn't help Ryuko or Wolverine.

If anything, they underemphasized Ryuko's regenerative powers. Pasting her would not work. It just... Pasting her is not much more thorough than the kinds of things that Ragyo tried against her in that final fight.

Wolvering was against someone with equally stupid regen powers and Ryuko fell victim to a different DB quirk in that they assumed her having a weakness mean that she effectively didn't really have super regeneration.

[Forum Explorer]

Wolvering was against someone with equally stupid regen powers and Ryuko fell victim to a different DB quirk in that they assumed her having a weakness mean that she effectively didn't really have super regeneration.

Sure, but that's two counter examples where regen, really powerful regen at that, didn't give the win.

Actually on that note, Regen wasn't enough for Lobo or the Hulk to win either.

So I'm really struggling to find a match up where it did matter. The first Deadpool I guess?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Deadpool and Dante are the two that are coming to mind. And I have a hard time calling either case 'overvaluing' regeneration.

[SKarious]

Another factor we need to consider is whether they'll let Steven have support party members:

That sounds awesome and like something I should watch, but DB does not allow support members & outside help.
I think the only fight they allowed it on was Dante vs. Bayonetta, and the two supports ended up fighting each other and being entirely un-relevant to the fight.