DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

[hungrycrow]

That sounds awesome and like something I should watch, but DB does not allow support members & outside help.
I think the only fight they allowed it on was Dante vs. Bayonetta, and the two supports ended up fighting each other and being entirely un-relevant to the fight.

There was also digimon vs pokemon, and probably a few others. In order to be fair Star would also have to get support members, and that really isn't part of her fighting style the way it is with Steven.

[Rater202]

There was also digimon vs pokemon, and probably a few others. In order to be fair Star would also have to get support members, and that really isn't part of her fighting style the way it is with Steven.

Yeah. This is really one of those fights where "Fair" and "Equal" aren't the same thing.

Steven's demonstrated the ability to fuse with a Gem that's been "poofed" (damage their hard light body results in them reverting to an inert gem until they can reconstitute themself, which often involves a change of appearance) which also accelerated the poofed Gem's reconstitution, so if the fight starts because Star poofed the other Crystal Gems, that might be something, but...

Otherwise, Steven's a disadvantage because he's cut off from a good chunk of his combat repertoire.

[SKarious]

Now I am interested: Can Star's friends hold the Gems at bay and stop them from joining Steven?
We have:
- Marco: At the very least a human martial artist (Karate blackbelt) with anti-monster experince and good enough reflexes to avoid magic & lasers (Laser Puppies!). At most: a hardened inetrdimensional warrior with decades (or even centuries) of combat experience.
- Tom: An immortal demon prince with great flight, necromancy and fire mastery powers.
- umm, King River? I mean, I can't think of anyone else right now for the third slot, but he is pretty strong.

[Keltest]

Yeah. This is really one of those fights where "Fair" and "Equal" aren't the same thing.

Steven's demonstrated the ability to fuse with a Gem that's been "poofed" (damage their hard light body results in them reverting to an inert gem until they can reconstitute themself, which often involves a change of appearance) which also accelerated the poofed Gem's reconstitution, so if the fight starts because Star poofed the other Crystal Gems, that might be something, but...

Otherwise, Steven's a disadvantage because he's cut off from a good chunk of his combat repertoire.

Given that, unless they allow him to just have a bunch of poofed gems in his pocket or something for the sake of allowing access to fusion, this may just end up being one of those "they were based on superficial similarities and not any actual parity between their powers" matchups.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

That sounds awesome and like something I should watch, but DB does not allow support members & outside help.
I think the only fight they allowed it on was Dante vs. Bayonetta, and the two supports ended up fighting each other and being entirely un-relevant to the fight.

Not quite; IIRC the rule is that if a combatant's combat style relies on summoning or otherwise help from others, they can still do that, but only one person can be fighting at a time (which is why Bayonetta could still summon her demons, but couldn't attack Dante while he was occupied with them). I have no idea whether party members that you merge with as your primary combat strategy would be allowed by that rule, but there is a chance.

[Traab]

Not quite; IIRC the rule is that if a combatant's combat style relies on summoning or otherwise help from others, they can still do that, but only one person can be fighting at a time (which is why Bayonetta could still summon her demons, but couldn't attack Dante while he was occupied with them). I have no idea whether party members that you merge with as your primary combat strategy would be allowed by that rule, but there is a chance.

They allowed the megazord. And various fusions in varying battles. So technically an argument could be made that fusion combos are allowed so long as its still one being in the fight.

[Forum Explorer]

They allowed the megazord. And various fusions in varying battles. So technically an argument could be made that fusion combos are allowed so long as its still one being in the fight.

White Ranger had demonstrated the ability to summon the Megazord without the other Power Rangers though.

But yeah, they usually do have whatever is needed to allow the character to fuse/power up, even if it is a rare item. So long as it isn't an actual one off, like Kakashi's power up with Obi.

[Traab]

So the blurbs are up, and its looking dicey just from them. Star Butterfly is basically given the ability to make up spells that do whatever she wants, meanwhile steven is being given durability feats in the tenajoules realm due to momma blocking some super laser attack and him having her powers. Thats 8.4x10 to the 38th power energy per second. So one has powers that are basically "Yes" the other has defenses that are basically "no" But this is just the surface blurb, im sure we will get to see all sorts of dubious feats in the full thing. They DID include fusions for steven though. So that might be allowed to happen if it makes a difference.

[HolyDraconus]

So the blurbs are up, and its looking dicey just from them. Star Butterfly is basically given the ability to make up spells that do whatever she wants, meanwhile steven is being given durability feats in the tenajoules realm due to momma blocking some super laser attack and him having her powers. Thats 8.4x10 to the 38th power energy per second. So one has powers that are basically "Yes" the other has defenses that are basically "no" But this is just the surface blurb, im sure we will get to see all sorts of dubious feats in the full thing. They DID include fusions for steven though. So that might be allowed to happen if it makes a difference.

Has any of Steven's fusions upgraded when it was revealed that he was a diamond? Like he has smoky quartz cause for a while it was assumed he was a rose quartz, is it now Smoky Diamond with increase abilities? Cause I distinctly remember Steven being fused with someone not Connie and Garnet still slapped him around; even though back then it was assumed to be a fusion with a rose quartz. Cause Diamonds on the whole, from memory mind you, are just that much more powerful than everything else in that universe. I think

[hungrycrow]

Has any of Steven's fusions upgraded when it was revealed that he was a diamond? Like he has smoky quartz cause for a while it was assumed he was a rose quartz, is it now Smoky Diamond with increase abilities? Cause I distinctly remember Steven being fused with someone not Connie and Garnet still slapped him around; even though back then it was assumed to be a fusion with a rose quartz. Cause Diamonds on the whole, from memory mind you, are just that much more powerful than everything else in that universe. I think

He still fused into Smoky Quartz in one episode, but now Smoky was so fast they basically stopped time.

It's interesting that the Steven blurb mentions fusions, but doesn't show or mention anything from Future where his best feats are. Though I guess it can't mention everything.

Also, Steven dodged lasers one time ergo he has lightspeed reaction time. Death Battle logic.

[Traab]

He still fused into Smoky Quartz in one episode, but now Smoky was so fast they basically stopped time.

It's interesting that the Steven blurb mentions fusions, but doesn't show or mention anything from Future where his best feats are. Though I guess it can't mention everything.

Also, Steven dodged lasers one time ergo he has lightspeed reaction time. Death Battle logic.

At least thats slightly better than "His mom was capable of this, his mom gave him her powers, therefore he is capable of it too, though we havent seen any feats from him on par with that." Im fine with, "here we see him dodging lightspeed attacks, therefore he can dodge at faster than lightspeed." as at least thats actually the character doing it, even if it only happens once.

[hungrycrow]

At least thats slightly better than "His mom was capable of this, his mom gave him her powers, therefore he is capable of it too, though we havent seen any feats from him on par with that." Im fine with, "here we see him dodging lightspeed attacks, therefore he can dodge at faster than lightspeed." as at least thats actually the character doing it, even if it only happens once.

I agree that the whole transitive property thing is more annoying, but my problem is that energy attacks in fiction generally aren't depicted at their real-life speeds. If you assumed they were and applied it to the whole series instead of cherrypicking feats to support one character, you'd often find that everyone in a series would have to be moving at near-lightspeed all the time.

[Forum Explorer]

So the blurbs are up, and its looking dicey just from them. Star Butterfly is basically given the ability to make up spells that do whatever she wants, meanwhile steven is being given durability feats in the tenajoules realm due to momma blocking some super laser attack and him having her powers. Thats 8.4x10 to the 38th power energy per second. So one has powers that are basically "Yes" the other has defenses that are basically "no" But this is just the surface blurb, im sure we will get to see all sorts of dubious feats in the full thing. They DID include fusions for steven though. So that might be allowed to happen if it makes a difference.

Star basically does have the ability to make up spells to do whatever she wants. That's not really an exaggeration for Star.

[Traab]

Star basically does have the ability to make up spells to do whatever she wants. That's not really an exaggeration for Star.

I know, thats going to be the issue going forward. Establishing limits to her reality warping ability. Can she just go "Opponent No Moreus!" And steven will turn to dust? Or has there been a hardcap limit to her power, a point where her magic has failed to accomplish something so death battle can go, "Ok, this was the biggest thing she tried and it failed, so this is how strong she can possibly be"?

[Forum Explorer]

I know, thats going to be the issue going forward. Establishing limits to her reality warping ability. Can she just go "Opponent No Moreus!" And steven will turn to dust? Or has there been a hardcap limit to her power, a point where her magic has failed to accomplish something so death battle can go, "Ok, this was the biggest thing she tried and it failed, so this is how strong she can possibly be"?

The biggest thing she tried, and failed at, was destroying all magic everywhere across every dimension. She needed the help of her mother and one of the greatest magic users in the history of Mewmy to pull that off. However, she did manage to purify that same dimension of magic by herself.

But the best description of Star's magic is weird. Things are arbitrary. Like the memory loss effect of the dimension of magic can be beat by eating pudding. Why? No reason.

[theNater]

Has any of Steven's fusions upgraded when it was revealed that he was a diamond? Like he has smoky quartz cause for a while it was assumed he was a rose quartz, is it now Smoky Diamond with increase abilities?

Steven and Rose both clearly exhibited abilities well above and beyond what was typical for a quartz (which we now know was because of the diamond thing), so I think it's safe to assume their fusions would have access to the powers, and therefore not see an upgrade from the reveal.

A change of name would be possible, but the resultant fusions seem to prefer the old names.

I know, thats going to be the issue going forward. Establishing limits to her reality warping ability.

Yeah, can somebody who knows Star a little bit chime in on this? Steven's shield, impenetrable as it may be, still only protects from one side. Given that Star seems to have plenty of ways to go around it, I don't see how this is anything but a stomp in her favor.

[Rater202]

A thing to note is that while the gems change color during a fusion, they do not seem to actually become new gems.

Like, Blue diamond flat out says that Garnet is not a 'real' Garnet. However, Hessonite, a 'real' garnet, does have some superficial similarities to Garnet suggesting that the Gem fusions choice of naming pattern is based loosely on the abilities or appearance of their fused bodies.

So presumably, Smokey Quartz is not an actual Smokey Quartz but a Diamond and an Amythest who may or may not resemble a Smokey Quartz.

[hungrycrow]

During her fight with Meteora, Star uses a blast that blows up part of the castle hall they're fighting in, but doesn't destroy the walls or Meteora. This uses up her golden butterfly form and leaves her exhausted, so it could work as an upper limit to what she can do in a fight. I can't remember the last season well enough to know if she tops that later.

[theNater]

During her fight with Meteora, Star uses a blast that blows up part of the castle hall they're fighting in, but doesn't destroy the walls or Meteora. This uses up her golden butterfly form and leaves her exhausted, so it could work as an upper limit to what she can do in a fight.

Well, the fact that she can wear herself out is good news for Steven, given that his standard strategy is to let his opponents exhaust themselves on his defenses.

How is Star tactically? Is she more likely to try to find a way around Steven's shield or to just throw increasing amounts of power at it?

[hungrycrow]

Well, the fact that she can wear herself out is good news for Steven, given that his standard strategy is to let his opponents exhaust themselves on his defenses.

How is Star tactically? Is she more likely to try to find a way around Steven's shield or to just throw increasing amounts of power at it?

I wouldn't say she's tactical exactly, but she is creative and would probably throw different types of spells at him. I don't think "shoot around the shield" can work though, Steven can just reconfigure it into a bubble if he wants to.

[theNater]

I wouldn't say she's tactical exactly, but she is creative and would probably throw different types of spells at him. I don't think "shoot around the shield" can work though, Steven can just reconfigure it into a bubble if he wants to.

Unfortunately for Steven, bubble mode* is significantly less resilient; well within Star's ability to break.

I think the situation we're in is that Steven can theoretically defend against any particular attack Star throws at him, but he has to use the right defense. If Star is mixing it up, as sounds likely, he's probably going to pick wrong sometimes. So we end up with an endurance match: does Star run out of magic before or after Steven is too heavily injured to continue?


*Technically a different power, but whatever.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, the fact that she can wear herself out is good news for Steven, given that his standard strategy is to let his opponents exhaust themselves on his defenses.

How is Star tactically? Is she more likely to try to find a way around Steven's shield or to just throw increasing amounts of power at it?

She isn't very tactical, but she is creative. She'd likely keep trying to attack Steven's shield, but would change how she attacked each time. Also does Steven's shield protect against mental attacks? Low Self Esteem beam is an attack we see on screen, as is a hypnosis spell.

Though the tricky part is if they give her Eclipsa's spells. Star has canonically studied them, and she certainly has the power to cast them, so under Death Battle rules she should have them available to her, even though she's never actually casted them in canon. That's where the really powerful spells are.

The Spell with No Name can melt through basically anything, and we don't know it's maximum power since it went straight through a kajiu sized knight, most of a town, a mountain, before flying out of sight.

The Darkest Spell of Moon the Undaunted can instant kill an immortal, so long as it hits the target's heart. But even a miss will destroy whatever body part it hit and shut down regeneration.

Also they have the best chants

Spoiler: The Spell with No Name

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I call the spell with no name,
my mother's gift, with it she reigned.
Eclipse my heart with righteous power.
Stand before the Queen, and cower!

Spoiler: Darkest Spell of Moon the undaunted

Show

I call the darkness unto me,
from deepest depths of Earth and Sea.
From ancient evils unawoken
break the one who can't be broken
to blackest night I pledge my soul
and crush my heart to burning coal
to summon forth a deathly power
to see my hated foe devoured!

[theNater]

Also does Steven's shield protect against mental attacks? Low Self Esteem beam is an attack we see on screen, as is a hypnosis spell.

It has blocked a mind-control beam, but I don't think it's ever been tested against non-beam mental attacks.

The Spell with No Name can melt through basically anything, and we don't know it's maximum power since it went straight through a kajiu sized knight, most of a town, a mountain, before flying out of sight.

He doesn't have to stop it, just avoid or deflect it, so I don't think this would pose a major problem for him.

The Darkest Spell of Moon the Undaunted can instant kill an immortal, so long as it hits the target's heart. But even a miss will destroy whatever body part it hit and shut down regeneration.

I have no idea how, or even if, something like this would work on Steven, whose biology is partly inorganic. Do we have any information on how it would work against sentient robots, energy beings, and/or magically alive statues?

Also they have the best chants

Them's some nice chants, all right.

[Forum Explorer]

It has blocked a mind-control beam, but I don't think it's ever been tested against non-beam mental attacks.


He doesn't have to stop it, just avoid or deflect it, so I don't think this would pose a major problem for him.


I have no idea how, or even if, something like this would work on Steven, whose biology is partly inorganic. Do we have any information on how it would work against sentient robots, energy beings, and/or magically alive statues?


Them's some nice chants, all right.

Well, I'll assume it'll stop the mind controlly stuff than. Saying otherwise seems a little arbitrary.

Avoid sure, it is comparatively slow moving to a laser, even without calling lasers light speed attacks. But the spell itself is basically a giant butterfly of death, that melts anything it touches as it flies. And I do mean anything. I don't think it could be deflected as it is self propelled.

The spell is designed to kill an immortal being. That's all we get description wise. The only time we see it actually used, Moon deliberately aimed away from her target, as to only glance him, as she wasn't really comfortable with murder, and had made a bargain that if Toffee died (the target in question), than Eclipsa would be freed from her imprisonment. As a result of the glancing blow, his finger was destroyed (the only part of him hit by the beam) and his regenerative powers reduced.

EDIT: Oh, there's another Eclipsa spell that Star could theoretically cast. Black Velvet Inferno. It surrounds the target in a shield of darkness, before the inside suddenly ignites, incinerating whatever is trapped inside. Sadly, no chant for that one.

[theNater]

Well, I'll assume it'll stop the mind controlly stuff than. Saying otherwise seems a little arbitrary.

Works for me!

Avoid sure, it is comparatively slow moving to a laser, even without calling lasers light speed attacks.

Yeah, I went and looked up the clip; unless it doubles back on him, he'll probably be fine.

The spell is designed to kill an immortal being.

This one's easy, because Steven isn't an immortal being. So it's a type mismatch in the targeting line; no good.

EDIT: Oh, there's another Eclipsa spell that Star could theoretically cast. Black Velvet Inferno. It surrounds the target in a shield of darkness, before the inside suddenly ignites, incinerating whatever is trapped inside. Sadly, no chant for that one.

This, though, is the kind of thing that would wreck Steven's day. Surrounds the target, so not dodgable, hits from all sides, so his shield is no good. If it's powerful enough to punch through his bubble, which seems pretty likely, he's toast.

[Rater202]

Low Self Esteem beam

Judging from Steven Universe Future, that would turn Steven into a Corrupted Gem monster powerful enough to easily break apart Alexandrite, the fusion of Garnet, Pearl, and Amythest, as well as being only mildly annoyed by a blow to the head from Bizmuth and break free from the water chains of Lapiz Lazuli(a planet-wide macrohydrokinetic. Her first appearance had her use all the water on Earth to form a tower to try and get to space and she was cracked at the time. It's eventually established that Lapises are used to terraform entire planets.)

The only thing that was able to calm him down and turn him back down to normal was a group hug from Garnet(shapeshifted to giant size), Amethyst, Pearl, Lapis, Peridot, Bismuth, Greg, Blue Diamond, Yellow Diamond, Spinel, The Cluster, Lion, and Connie and I don't see Star having a spell for that.

[SKarious]

Did anything in the show ever manage to break Steven's shields?
Did the show explicitly say the Steven has all the powers of his mother, and at the same strength?

[hungrycrow]

Did anything in the show ever manage to break Steven's shields?
Did the show explicitly say the Steven has all the powers of his mother, and at the same strength?

Jasper broke through Steven's hex shield with a headbutt during their last fight, but maybe can't break through the triple hex shield he uses afterwards. Trouble then is gaging the strength of Jasper's headbutt.

Early on he blocks a blast from Peridot's hand ship. Confusingly his hex shields, bubble shield, and regular shield might have differing strengths?

[theNater]

Confusingly his hex shields, bubble shield, and regular shield might have differing strengths?

They are different powers, so it's not too surprising that they have different strengths. You can tell they're different powers because he summons them with different emotions. (Steven's powers are controlled by his emotions).

Did anything in the show ever manage to break Steven's shields?

The shield has been bypassed by a few technological devices specifically designed to bypass Gem constructs, but never overwhelmed by raw force.
The bubble and hex fields have been smashed through from time to time.

Did the show explicitly say the Steven has all the powers of his mother, and at the same strength?

I don't think it's been explicit, but Steven has demonstrated every power that we know of Rose having, and they are produced via the same tools.

[HolyDraconus]

To start. The winner is

Spoiler

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Star. It was a stomp. Steven outran her and can out muscle her but he doesn’t have the tools needed to defend against various forms of obliteration, basically.

I didnt care for this matchup all that much. Next Time, on June 13th,

Spoiler

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Link vs Cloud. Can you call it a rematch? Or a redo? Will the result be the same with updated information, or will it change????

im looking forward to this one. Regardless of who wins, everyone loses.