DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

[Keltest]

Exact opposite. If what matters the physics, then the fact of the matter is is that she's not getting cut.

Once we are talking about hitting her at every point on her body simultaneously, it doesn't matter that the blow is a meant to cut.

An infinite number of blades packed together tightly enough that they do not interfere with each other's trajectories and strike every point on their target all moving forward at equal velocity are indistinguishable from a solid wall moving at the same velocity.

And you can't cut someone by throwing a solid wall at them. You crush them.

And Life-Fibers don't care about technicalities. Physics applies differently to them. I have explained repeatedly that Life Fibers obey their own rules.

And the rule is that a fully mature life fiber can only be meaningfully damaged from two precise cuts striking the exact same point at the same time from symmetrical angles.

Shadow's Time Stop Brute Force trick might work against Perfect Cell, whose regen doesn't have such conceptual, physics ignoring aspects to it, but it would not do any meaningful damage to Ryuko.

Assuming that he's literally stopping time, that is.

Ok, but thats just, like, your opinion man. Youre now trying to define "cut" as to be something that Shadow cant do because you dont want her to lose. And thats just like... why? Why put that much energy into this?

[Rater202]

Ok, but thats just, like, your opinion man. Youre now trying to define "cut" as to be something that Shadow cant do because you dont want her to lose. And thats just like... why? Why put that much energy into this?

No. It's not my opinion. It'ts the stated rules of Kill La Kill combined with basic logic.

Shadow cannot kill Ryuko the way that Death battles depicted because tha'ts not how it works.

The average human male is 170688000000000 yoctometers tall.

If I possess the power to genuinely stop time while remaining unaffected, time does not pass at all, and I possess a blade 1 toctomter thick mde of some insdustrutable metal, with a length long enough that swinging it on and I walk up to Bob the completely average Man and strike him 170688000000000 times, across every yoctometer of her body without ever messing up on the angle so that it my strikes cross each other, then allowed time to proceed...

Bob would not be cut. Bob's body wan't physical able to react to my blows until time resumed.

He would not be cut into 170688000000000 slices, because there would be no space between strikes.

His body would react as if he'd been hit by a solid mass of my instructable metal once rather than a narrow blade of if 170688000000000 times. Because, from the perspective of his body, that's what happened.

The total force of each strike would be distributed over his body.

His bones would shatter, his muscles would be either crushed by the impact or shredded by shards of bone, his organics would rupture.

But there's not a coroner in the world would who declare his cause of death "cut apart." If there were no witnesses to my brazen murder of this man, they might think that he got hit by a bus.

If I went around and did it on the other side of his body as well, they might give his cause of death as "trapped in a winepress."

This is effectively what shadow did to Ryuko in the Deathbattles video.

No one would ever reasonably look at the aftermath of such an attack and say "cut to pieces." The coroner would say "crushed from all angles."

And crushing from all angles won't kill Ryyuko.

[Delicious Taffy]

Okay, this is getting out of hand. You're defining "cut" in a specific way that doesn't seem to be the real definition, and then saying everyone else is actually secretly talking about something else without knowing it, just so you can't be wrong. If Shadow McHedgehog stops time (in the way he always does, which everyone else in this thread seems to know about) and uses his magic yarn sword to cut your waifu's special magic insta-kill yarn from sYMmEtRiCaL aNgLeS, she's dead. Until you make up a new rule, I guess.

Not one single other person has said a single thing about a yoctopus or whatever, you're making up BS arguments and stances for us all to hold, getting mad about it, and then bickering with yourself about things none of us ever said. Like I said, take away the brat's cellphone and she'll crumble into dust permanently. You claim she doesn't have a phone and could beat up my dad, but according to you, she also doesn't seem to have any rules more reasonable than a five-year-old saying "Nuh-uh, I have a shield", so literally anything anyone comes up with is equally valid.

[Keltest]

Also, youre getting your physics wrong. The body wouldnt react, because its time stopped, but its still been cut because the blade entered them on one side and exited them on the other. He would immediately fall apart into a gory mess as if he exploded, because his body has been instantly (from the perspective of linear time) been filled with holes. He doesnt experience all the force as if he got put in a press, it isnt stasis like in Legend of Zelda.

[Rater202]

body wouldnt react, because its time stopped, but its still been cut because the blade entered them on one side and exited them on the other.

How can the blade enter his body if his body did not react to the force of the blade? The flesh breaking and parting to allow the blades passage would be the body reacting.

If the blade pierced his body, then time was not truly stopped, merely slowed.

[Keltest]

How can the blade enter his body if his body did not react to the force of the blade? The flesh breaking and parting to allow the blades passage would be the body reacting.

If the blade pierced his body, then time was not truly stopped, merely slowed.

The same way he can move his own body without smacking into the suddenly-solid air, or manipulate the sword he's swinging. Its basically magic that works in the way thats most convenient for Shadow.

Also, when i said the body "wouldnt react" i meant in the "it wouldnt go flying apart because Newton's Laws havent had time to come into effect yet" sense not "it is literally unable to be affected by anything."

[Rater202]

The same way he can move his own body without smacking into the suddenly-solid air, or manipulate the sword he's swinging. Its basically magic that works in the way thats most convenient for Shadow.

Also, when i said the body "wouldnt react" i meant in the "it wouldnt go flying apart because Newton's Laws havent had time to come into effect yet" sense not "it is literally unable to be affected by anything."

If you want to argue that pulping Ryuko from both sides is effectively cutting her because physicsm I'm allowed to point out why hitting her that many times that way would be more like smacking her with a big hammer than cutting her with a sword.

Thi is, of course, assuming it's a real time stop. I've looked it up and sources seem inconsistent, some sources seem to say he can only slow time. If Shadow is merely slowing time to an absurd degree then Ryuko's body would be cut.. But then the cuts wouldn't be simultaneous.

[tyckspoon]

You claim she doesn't have a phone and could beat up my dad, but according to you, she also doesn't seem to have any rules more reasonable than a five-year-old saying "Nuh-uh, I have a shield", so literally anything anyone comes up with is equally valid.

In fairness to Rater that is how a lot of high power scale shounen battle anime effectively works. Either the characters are using impossible (as in if we take the calculations Death Battle does seriously, then we must conclude physics as we know it simply does not apply to the fictional universe depicted and we can't make any reasonable arguments anyways!) amounts of power that cannot be overcome by anything that comes from a universe even the least bit more grounded in reality, or the (hero/villain) has some stupid ultra special unique power that can only be beaten by the (hero/villain)'s even more specialer unique power. When the source story itself has to be bent in knots to make it so that only the designated protagonist has the exact correct set of powers to exploit the one singular hyper specific loophole in the antagonist's powers, it seems reasonable to argue that characters that aren't even part of that story and don't share any of its conceits probably are not going to manage to duplicate that same set of circumstances required to exploit the singular hyper specific loophole.

Kill la Kill actually has *both* of those things going on, in that the characters do things that require impossible amounts of power, so you aren't even going to begin to compete unless you also do that, and the rules of the universe are constructed specifically to justify why the Ultimate Weapon is a giant pair of scissors. Characters from stories that have that second thing going on, where the rules of their universe have been constructed entirely to justify whatever weird gimmick.. well, they tend to be really bad subjects for versus arguments.

[Rater202]

Kill La Kill very clearly and very explicitly states that, short of the Hybrid in question killing themselves(and even then...) the only way to harm a fully mature Life Fiber hybrid is to take a very durable and very sharp pair of blade and make two symmetrical cuts from opposite ends so that they cleanly bisect their component Life Fibers via simultaneous strikes.

If people are going to cite physics for why Shadow stopping time and hitting Ryuko a billion times counts, I am allowed to cite physics to refute that position, yes.

[Keltest]

Kill La Kill very clearly and very explicitly states that, short of the Hybrid in question killing themselves(and even then...) the only way to harm a fully mature Life Fiber hybrid is to take a very durable and very sharp pair of blade and make two symmetrical cuts from opposite ends so that they cleanly bisect their component Life Fibers via simultaneous strikes.

If people are going to cite physics for why Shadow stopping time and hitting Ryuko a billion times counts, I am allowed to cite physics to refute that position, yes.

And if your physics based refutation was consistent with how Chaos Control worked, i would concede the point.

[Rater202]

And if your physics based refutation was consistent with how Chaos Control worked, i would concede the point.

And everything Im'seeing abut Chaos control suggests that Shadow isn't actually stopping time, he's just slowing it to the point that it seems stopped form his perspective.

Though oddly enough, Sonic can apparently stop time legitimately... In two games and only those two games.

If Shadow is merely slowing time to the point that it seems to have stopped, then yes, he can cut Ryuko... But then he's not cutting her simultaneously. There's a minuscule delay and tha'ts all the Life Fibers need.

[McNum]

So on the subject of the show, from the DEATH BATTLE panel at RTX, we've got the full lineup for the next battle.

Batman (All suits) vs. Iron Man (All armors)

Which is about what we expected.

But that's not all, they also revealed who'll be fighting for episode 150. You are not ready for this one. Go on, guess.

Spoiler: Episode 150

Show

Spoiler: Oh yeah!

Show

Macho Man Randal Savage!
vs.

Spoiler: OH YEAH!

Show

The Kool-Aid Man!

Yup. That's definitely a match. How is that even going to work?

[Iamyourking]

I did say I'd heard rumors that was going to be the case-which I think pretty much confirms the other rumor that the finale will be Galactus vs. Unicron. I concur that I have no idea how it is going to work.

[Rynjin]

And everything Im'seeing abut Chaos control suggests that Shadow isn't actually stopping time, he's just slowing it to the point that it seems stopped form his perspective.

Though oddly enough, Sonic can apparently stop time legitimately... In two games and only those two games.

If Shadow is merely slowing time to the point that it seems to have stopped, then yes, he can cut Ryuko... But then he's not cutting her simultaneously. There's a minuscule delay and tha'ts all the Life Fibers need.

We know that's not true, because he shouts Za Warudo when he does it.

So on the subject of the show, from the DEATH BATTLE panel at RTX, we've got the full lineup for the next battle.

Batman (All suits) vs. Iron Man (All armors)

Which is about what we expected.

But that's not all, they also revealed who'll be fighting for episode 150. You are not ready for this one. Go on, guess.

Spoiler: Episode 150

Show

Spoiler: Oh yeah!

Show

Macho Man Randal Savage!
vs.

Spoiler: OH YEAH!

Show

The Kool-Aid Man!

Yup. That's definitely a match. How is that even going to work?

Both of these matches sound...really dumb. Though at least the latter might be funny.

[Rater202]

Gonna give it to Kool-Aid Man.

Kool-Aid Man has, over the years, demonstrated superhuman strength and toughness, resistance to extreme heat and cold, the ability to teleport himself or others, the ability to create portals between dimensions, an Ice-Man esque ability to create ice and snow, the ability to create rainbows, and the ability to inhabit and transform into inanimate objects, and turn water into Kool-Aid.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, but the Macho Man sacrificed himself to avert the 2012 apocalypse. He's at least planetary level.

[Traab]

Macho man has been known to cause extreme explosions just by biting into meat flavored sticks, including minor reality altering effects. Also possibly mind control because despite a crazy screaming man dropping from the ceiling, everyone seems happy and agreeable to whatever he hollers. Also, we can abuse transitive property, since thats kind of death battles jam, and point out that randy savage had an opponent he fought that was known for being able to body slam GIANTS. Clearly that means macho can do it too.

[Anteros]

It really comes down to whether or not Macho Man is SlimJimlusted. While under its effects he's been scene to burst through walls, cause explosions, control electricity, and teleport. Also wrestle.

[HolyDraconus]

It really comes down to whether or not Macho Man is SlimJimlusted. While under its effects he's been scene to burst through walls, cause explosions, control electricity, and teleport. Also wrestle.

Never did I expect to see the day that this is a legitimate comment about Randy. Lmao.

[Traab]

Im pretty sure ive seen macho man flying around skyrim breathing fire too.

Spoiler

Show

[HolyDraconus]

Kill La Kill very clearly and very explicitly states that, short of the Hybrid in question killing themselves(and even then...) the only way to harm a fully mature Life Fiber hybrid is to take a very durable and very sharp pair of blade and make two symmetrical cuts from opposite ends so that they cleanly bisect their component Life Fibers via simultaneous strikes..

Pretty sure the doc said “most effective” and not “the only”. I’m also pretty sure that if the nexus thread (or threads in the case of Ryuko) is cut it bypasses the regeneration entirely and straight dies.

[Rater202]

Pretty sure the doc said “most effective” and not “the only”. I’m also pretty sure that if the nexus thread (or threads in the case of Ryuko) is cut it bypasses the regeneration entirely and straight dies.

Ryuko was legitimately cut in half but survived because she twisted at the last second in such a way that her threads weren't cut symmetrically which allowed her threads to reattach and her body to pull itself back together.

The same happened earlier to Ragyo: Ragyo was stabbed through the heart twice and crucified, which didn't even slow her down, then her head was cut cleanly off by Satsuki, but because Satsuki only cut from one side Ragyo's main life-fiber reconnected and pulled her still living head back on.

Later on, Ryuko and Satsuki, doing their best to cut simultaneously and symmetrically, cut Ragyo cleanly into quarters, but they were slightly off and Ragyo was still talking while vertically bisected.

During the final battle, Ragyo tries to overcome Ryuko's regeneration with brute force and fails.

I think it's very telling that Ragyo's and Nui's respective deaths were suicides rather than them being killed by the good guys.

The only inconsistency is that Ragyo's suicide involved her crushing her own heart... But since she exploded into life-fibers immediately afterward it's possible that she merely willed herself to unravel and the heart crushing was symbolic: It was a spite suicide after all.

[McNum]

One thing we might get settled is if the Kool-Aid Man is the pitcher or the liquid. Is he made of glass and full of Kool-Aid, or is he the Kool-Aid wearing a glass pitcher?

And if he's the pitcher, can he survive without Kool-Aid inside? If he's the Kool-Aid, can he move outside of the pitcher?

[Rater202]

One thing we might get settled is if the Kool-Aid Man is the pitcher or the liquid. Is he made of glass and full of Kool-Aid, or is he the Kool-Aid wearing a glass pitcher?

And if he's the pitcher, can he survive without Kool-Aid inside? If he's the Kool-Aid, can he move outside of the pitcher?

...So that question was actually answered before trying to find the answer became a meme.



Kool-Aid man is thus clearly a pitcher who fills himself with water from the shower andthen adds Kool-Aid mix to it as part of his morning routine. As he says, it's "pants."

[McNum]

...So that question was actually answered before trying to find the answer became a meme.



Kool-Aid man is thus clearly a pitcher who fills himself with water from the shower andthen adds Kool-Aid mix to it as part of his morning routine. As he says, it's "pants."

Ah that makes perfect sense, yes. Now why does he live in a house with a door he can't fit through?

[hungrycrow]

Ah that makes perfect sense, yes. Now why does he live in a house with a door he can't fit through?

So he can break through it. How else would Kool Aid Man leave his house.

[McNum]

So he can break through it. How else would Kool Aid Man leave his house.

Through the garage door?

The summer break on Death Battle does make it difficult to find good topics to keep the conversation going.

We've had complaints about upsets where we feel like one character should have won, but didn't, and some of them are indeed questionable, but... I think some of them are surprising, but fair. So as for surprising results that seem fair in hindsight, which do you have?

Personally, I'm still a fan of Raiden taking down Wolverine. Just because it took comparing the exact mechanics of his Hight Frequency sword to things that have countered Adamantium in Marvel and finding a match. And even then it wasn't a hard counter, Raiden still had to work for it to use it. Because, well, if you have something that can kill Wolverine, but it needs to be used in melee range? Good luck with that!

[Rater202]

I never saw that one, but... Assuming it's Revenge era Raiden in his second body(the first body was the onle he had at the end of Guns of th ePatriots—as close to human as possible—with an exoskeleton) then it comes down to if Raiden can get a death blow early on.

Raiden's cyberbody's self-repair function is completly dependant on stealing nano paste from other cyborgs: He heals better than most cyborgs, but has no passive healing abilities himself.

You also have to take differing qualities of Adamtnium into account: Logan's skeleton is laced with True Adamantium. Adamantium has been shown to be damageable by certain things, but most of those substances are said to be made of secondary Adamantium which has more excessive impurities and isn't treated as many times.

It's much cheaper to manufacture but isn't as durable as the real thing.

As far as I can tell, excepting direct manipulation of molecules or chemical reactions, confirmed true Adamantium has only ever been damaged by Thor striking it with Mjolnir.

Now, Raiden detracts to the ability to lift objects that must weigh hundreds of tons, putting him up there with Marvel's heaviest hitters, but Logan has demonstrated the ability to take punches from Hulk-Tier opponents...

Unless someone can pull a citation of Logan's bones being cut through by vibration weapons, I'd have to give it to Wolverine.

[HolyDraconus]

Through the garage door?

The summer break on Death Battle does make it difficult to find good topics to keep the conversation going.

We've had complaints about upsets where we feel like one character should have won, but didn't, and some of them are indeed questionable, but... I think some of them are surprising, but fair. So as for surprising results that seem fair in hindsight, which do you have?

Personally, I'm still a fan of Raiden taking down Wolverine. Just because it took comparing the exact mechanics of his Hight Frequency sword to things that have countered Adamantium in Marvel and finding a match. And even then it wasn't a hard counter, Raiden still had to work for it to use it. Because, well, if you have something that can kill Wolverine, but it needs to be used in melee range? Good luck with that!

The opposite of this I feel is Guts vs Nightmare. Nightmare outclasses Guts statistically, but cause its what Guts do he just loses? I want to see some math backing that up.

[Rater202]

The opposite of this I feel is Guts vs Nightmare. Nightmare outclasses Guts statistically, but cause its what Guts do he just loses? I want to see some math backing that up.

Is that even "what guts does."

BEcuase I remember at the end of the second Govu vs Superman they through out the numbers and said "Supermans narrative is he's the best, while Goku's narrative is becoming the best, so Superman wins becuase we arbitrarily decided that Superman's narrative trumps Goku's" but as has been pointed out hundreds of times since then, Superman's narrative is "a figurative God wants to be human becuase he admires humans and was raised to see the good of humans" and he's objectively not the best in-universe with many people being as strong if not stronger than him, either in general or in specific circumstances.