DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

[Devonix]

The thing is, that justification doesn't really matter...because Korra can't use the Avatar State at all. Unless they're just ignoring the last two seasons?

I have no idea why you think Korra can't use the Avatar State. She has full access to the Avatar State, what she lost access to was the knowledge of the past Avatars.

[Rynjin]

I have no idea why you think Korra can't use the Avatar State. She has full access to the Avatar State, what she lost access to was the knowledge of the past Avatars.

Tomato, to-mah-toe, the thing that made the Avatar State ludicrously powerful was the accumulated millenia of knowledge of bending that instantly catapulted the Avatar from "proficient" or even "mastery" to "impossible" levels of elemental power.

I know it has a vague stat boost of its own, but it's not the same level as what Aang or Korra from the first two seasons would be able to access as their theoretical "maximum power".

The neutered version of the Avatar State Korra has access to is not enough to make up the raw power difference between her and Storm.

[Devonix]

Tomato, to-mah-toe, the thing that made the Avatar State ludicrously powerful was the accumulated millenia of knowledge of bending that instantly catapulted the Avatar from "proficient" or even "mastery" to "impossible" levels of elemental power.

I know it has a vague stat boost of its own, but it's not the same level as what Aang or Korra from the first two seasons would be able to access as their theoretical "maximum power".

The neutered version of the Avatar State Korra has access to is not enough to make up the raw power difference between her and Storm.

I'm not saying that the Avatar State is as powerful as Storm. Just saying that She lost the knowledge but not the power, She still has the Avatar State.

And if you really wanna get into it, the whole using the knowledge of the past Avatars thing was mostly done outside of the Avatar State. Most of the time Pre season 2 it was almost like a second super powered personality. And Korra was still able to do that With the " Avatar State functioning independently from Korra.

[Rynjin]

The knowledge and power were a tandem thing before; the Avatar State had some vague power/stat boost but the bulk of it was just being able to access ALL of the knowledge at once, hence the imagery of the line of Avatars stretching back into antiquity appearing (and disappearing) as the Avatar State was achieved (or lost).

I did forget that Korra still has the "Avatar State" even in season 3 (which I did watch a fair chunk of), but it is very clearly lower in power due to that loss of extra ability. It merely augments Korra's own still developing bending abilities rather than granting her near-godlike power. It is almost fair to refer to it as a different form entirely since the functionality and use is completely different (she can't just brute force problems with it, she has to find ways to finesse her abilities in targeted boosts).

I really need to finish Korra some time. I hated the part of season 3 I watched (which after the atrocious season 2 and lackluster season 1, was enough for me to drop it like a rock), but I hear the series finally gets good later on in season 3.

[Anteros]

Even with the avatar state this fight is a breeze for Storm. It doesn't even matter.

[Rater202]

Usually they at least PRETEND to know what they're talking about.

1: Alcuard had no reason to use level Zero while fighting Dio. The OCean of Blood is never referred to as such and is in fact just more of the shadowy Ethereal substance that Alucard is made of, being engulfed b y it would be the same as being eaten by Baskervilles, injecting it would infect you with Alucard's vampirism.

2: Ryuko Matoi is objectively immortal, with a single exception that Shadow is not capable of exploiting. Ryuko explicitly possesses all of the powers of the Primordial Life Fiber, which includes the ability to manipulate time and space. Lill La Kill If is not a non-canonical what-iff, despite being presented as such, but an explicitly canonical game explaining the attempts of the Primordial Life Fiber 6to avert its foreseen defeat by trapping Satsuki adn Ryuko in alternate timelines fof their respctive ideal worlds, which, when failed, are then remembered as dreams—explaining things from the orignal anime.

3:If they are, as they claim, taking characters at their peak, Peak Venom is Eddie Brock wearing Venom 3, also known as Legion, a Symbiote that explicitly has the combined powers and memories of the Venom, Carnage, Mania, Tyranosurus, Sleeper, Riot, Agony, Phage, Lasher, Dreadface, and Goblin Child symbiotes, two unmanned addition symbiotes, and Captain America, The Thing, Wolverine, Hawkye, and Tel-Kar... And thus would have been categorically immune to Crona's sonic attacks due to Goblin Child being an offshoot of Red Goblin, who was categorically immune to both fire and sonics due to a ombianiton of Darkhold enhancement and the Goblin Formula.

4: Shazam was 100 times his normal size and thus at least 100 times his normal stength when he punched open a black hole. That is not something he could replciate at normal size.

5: Ben 10's Omnitrix will activate automatically to protect him from danger and Alien X is objectively impervious to damage up to an including literally an entire universe's worth of energy. Green Lanter's power is vast but finite.

6: Namor the submariner demonstrates a level of hydro kinesis that far outstrips anything Aquaman ever has, to a degree that would more than make up for Aquaman's other advantages, in comics that they referred to in their recap of Namor.

7: Gaara's feats of power and control dwarf those of Toph in her prime. ITs' kind of bullcrap that they ruled that Toph could take Gaara's own sand, as Gaara's sand is mixed with human blood and infused with his spirit, his life force, and his mother's ghost none of which Toph has the power to bend even ignoring that e's demonstrable more powerful than him.

8: Their ruling on Superman vs Goku is based entirely on an entirely inaccurate narrative conceit. They divided by 2 when they should have multiplied by 50 while calculating Goku's speed feats: HAd they done the math correctly, Goku's speed would have dwarfed the speed they gave for Superman. The panel shown when citing Superman tanking a Super Nova has a caption box that explicitly states that he only was able to resist the Electromatic shockwave that preceded the nova itself and that he would have died instantly if he'd actually touched the nova which they blatantly ignored. Their argument that Superman is infinitely strong is based entirely on a misunderstanding of how the book f infinite pages works and ignores that he dropped it becuase of how heavy it was.

They have never known what they were talking about.

[Rynjin]

Hence "pretend".

A lot of that could be argued as "deep lore", the nitty gritty of how abilities work, details, etc.

Giving Korra all of Aang's feats would be different.

[Keltest]

Im going to take an apparently unpopular opinion here and say that while Storm throws around so much more raw energy than Korra that a direct beam war would be an easy Storm win, i think on a tactical level Korra's powers could theoretically protect her from Storm's powers enough to get in and land blows that Storm isnt as well equipped to protect herself from.

To use an analogy, i am objectively more powerful than a thumbtack in just about every possible way... but if all i can do is step on one, im probably going to give up before it does.

[Forum Explorer]

3:If they are, as they claim, taking characters at their peak, Peak Venom is Eddie Brock wearing Venom 3, also known as Legion, a Symbiote that explicitly has the combined powers and memories of the Venom, Carnage, Mania, Tyranosurus, Sleeper, Riot, Agony, Phage, Lasher, Dreadface, and Goblin Child symbiotes, two unmanned addition symbiotes, and Captain America, The Thing, Wolverine, Hawkye, and Tel-Kar... And thus would have been categorically immune to Crona's sonic attacks due to Goblin Child being an offshoot of Red Goblin, who was categorically immune to both fire and sonics due to a ombianiton of Darkhold enhancement and the Goblin Formula.

This one is a weird situation though, one that applies to most of the symbiotes, as they are two entities, the host and the symbiote itself.

Because in your example there you can say that isn't Venom. It is someone else called Legion, something that happens when symbiote's combine. And combo attacks or forms are ignored in Death Battle.

But that is still Eddie, just using the most powerful form he's ever had, much like how Iron Man can have super power suits that you only see occasionally.

So in that specific case, I'm fine with them ruling it either way.

Mind you, I really do dislike them using Marvel and DC characters. The baggage of having some sixty years of writing makes them a mess to look at.

[Rater202]

This one is a weird situation though, one that applies to most of the symbiotes, as they are two entities, the host and the symbiote itself.

Because in your example there you can say that isn't Venom. It is someone else called Legion, something that happens when symbiote's combine. And combo attacks or forms are ignored in Death Battle.

But that is still Eddie, just using the most powerful form he's ever had, much like how Iron Man can have super power suits that you only see occasionally.

So in that specific case, I'm fine with them ruling it either way.

Mind you, I really do dislike them using Marvel and DC characters. The baggage of having some sixty years of writing makes them a mess to look at.

Officially, the union of Eddie and Legion is just as much "Venom" as the union of Eddie and the orignal Venom Symbiote.

Much the same way that Cletus Kassady is still Carnage 4 symbiotes later.

[TeChameleon]

Hmm... no idea if this will come up or not, but Storm does have one other trick that will neuter between half and three-quarters of Korra's arsenal; like all the X-Men, she has a host of powers that come and go on an irregular basis (how often do writers/artists remember that Nightcrawler's face is cloaked in permanent shadow, no matter what the lighting conditions, or that Cyclops has superhuman geometry-calculating powers, or that Angel/Archangel has superhuman vision?). And one of those powers is being immune to the (ill-defined) 'elements', which typically shows up as not caring even vaguely about temperature extremes. Whether or not that makes her fireproof is iffy at best, but cold (when the writers remember she can do this) has never bothered her to any great degree. She also seems to be largely immune to lightning, which completely removes one of Korra's best long-range options.

[Forum Explorer]

Officially, the union of Eddie and Legion is just as much "Venom" as the union of Eddie and the orignal Venom Symbiote.

Much the same way that Cletus Kassady is still Carnage 4 symbiotes later.

It's a grey zone, that's all. Particularly since it was a temporary power up. (I don't even know the storyline, I just feel really safe in assuming it was temporary)

[Rater202]

It's a grey zone, that's all. Particularly since it was a temporary power up. (I don't even know the storyline, I just feel really safe in assuming it was temporary)

It's iffy. It was at the end of ABsolute Carnage, right before Eddie killed Cletus Kadssady and absorbed the Dark Carnage Symbiote(a fusion of the Grendel Symbiote and the remains of the three previous Carnage Symbiotes) becuase it had forcibly absorbed the orignal Venom Symbiote(as well as Mania, a dozen Weapon V symbiotes, and possibly Scorn.)

At that point Eddie was wearing an Amalgamation of Legion and Dark Carnage, but with the original Venom's personality dominating the Amalgamation with authorial statements stating that LEgion has permanently subsumed into Venom.

The next arc, Venom Island, had Cletus's consciousness manifest within the amalgamated symbiote, eventually separating into Venom and Carnage(a fusion of Cletus's mind n this final symbiote)... But Carnage was missing pretty much all of Dark Carnage's powers, and it's not really clear if Dark Carnage was just "The Dark Carnage symbiote without any of the other symbiotes or codices it absorbed prior to being absorbed into Legion" or if all of the component symbiotes of the amalgamation were divided evenly between them.

We do know that the Maker—the Reed Richards of the Ultimate Universe who was studying Earth 616 symbiotes—notes that the "codices" that made p Legion were "gone" but that could mean "I can't use them for my research anymore" just as much as it means "the symbiote ceased to exist at somepoint after Eddie got his orignal back."

"Virus" which is to say, the Scorpion wearing a bootleg War Machine Armor upgraded with a hodgepodge of goblin weapons and anti-symbiote weapons was able to hurt Eddie with anti-symbiote weapons, but there's an established difference between "sonic weapons in general" and "sonic weapons designed specifically to harm symbiotes" with symbiotes being immune to or resistant to the first still being partially vulnerable to the second.

[Dragonus45]

Usually they at least PRETEND to know what they're talking about.

The last time an Avatar character showed up they let Toph win against Gaara of the Mutha @$&*!# SANDS, based off of an easily contradicted dvd note that shouldn't have effected the battle anyways. Korra has this on lock.

1: Alcuard had no reason to use level Zero while fighting Dio. The OCean of Blood is never referred to as such and is in fact just more of the shadowy Ethereal substance that Alucard is made of, being engulfed b y it would be the same as being eaten by Baskervilles, injecting it would infect you with Alucard's vampirism.

Sure he did, he could never lay a hand on Dio otherwise and needed to try and swamp him with bodies. And you keep making up this idea that Alucards blood isn't blood despite literally everything about his themes and power being blood related. The Ocean of Blood is blood buddy, and the idea that it should eat Dio if it touches him or that Dio as a vampire shouldn't be able to drink it because you said so is pure fanfiction.

They have never known what they were talking about.

They get some right like Superman Vs Goku, and most just feel like honest mistakes or the like. But oh boy are there some really odd ones where you can feel the finger on the scale.

Officially, the union of Eddie and Legion is just as much "Venom" as the union of Eddie and the orignal Venom Symbiote.

Different names.

[Forum Explorer]

The last time an Avatar character showed up they let Toph win against Gaara of the Mutha @$&*!# SANDS, based off of an easily contradicted dvd note that shouldn't have effected the battle anyways. Korra has this on lock.

No, the last time an Avatar character showed up, Zuko got curb stomped by Todoroki. You mean the first time an Avatar character showed up, and they've made a lot of improvements since then. They are no where near perfect, and have their own weird obsessions but I'd say most of the time I end up agreeing with their results.

Even the most recent example of Dio vs Alucard is fair enough. It is completely possible for Dio to kill Alucard millions of times over a period of weeks or more. There are ways for Alucard to exploit his weakness to sunlight, but none of them are guaranteed, and it is kinda handwavey to say that Alucard would think to exploit them.

Like it is tough to say. It is hard to figure out how well a non-genius character will be able to come up with a plan, even if they've had weeks to do so.

[Anteros]

1: Alcuard had no reason to use level Zero while fighting Dio. The OCean of Blood is never referred to as such and is in fact just more of the shadowy Ethereal substance that Alucard is made of, being engulfed b y it would be the same as being eaten by Baskervilles, injecting it would infect you with Alucard's vampirism.

2: Ryuko Matoi is objectively immortal, with a single exception that Shadow is not capable of exploiting. Ryuko explicitly possesses all of the powers of the Primordial Life Fiber, which includes the ability to manipulate time and space. Lill La Kill If is not a non-canonical what-iff, despite being presented as such, but an explicitly canonical game explaining the attempts of the Primordial Life Fiber 6to avert its foreseen defeat by trapping Satsuki adn Ryuko in alternate timelines fof their respctive ideal worlds, which, when failed, are then remembered as dreams—explaining things from the orignal anime.

3:If they are, as they claim, taking characters at their peak, Peak Venom is Eddie Brock wearing Venom 3, also known as Legion, a Symbiote that explicitly has the combined powers and memories of the Venom, Carnage, Mania, Tyranosurus, Sleeper, Riot, Agony, Phage, Lasher, Dreadface, and Goblin Child symbiotes, two unmanned addition symbiotes, and Captain America, The Thing, Wolverine, Hawkye, and Tel-Kar... And thus would have been categorically immune to Crona's sonic attacks due to Goblin Child being an offshoot of Red Goblin, who was categorically immune to both fire and sonics due to a ombianiton of Darkhold enhancement and the Goblin Formula.

4: Shazam was 100 times his normal size and thus at least 100 times his normal stength when he punched open a black hole. That is not something he could replciate at normal size.

5: Ben 10's Omnitrix will activate automatically to protect him from danger and Alien X is objectively impervious to damage up to an including literally an entire universe's worth of energy. Green Lanter's power is vast but finite.

6: Namor the submariner demonstrates a level of hydro kinesis that far outstrips anything Aquaman ever has, to a degree that would more than make up for Aquaman's other advantages, in comics that they referred to in their recap of Namor.

7: Gaara's feats of power and control dwarf those of Toph in her prime. ITs' kind of bullcrap that they ruled that Toph could take Gaara's own sand, as Gaara's sand is mixed with human blood and infused with his spirit, his life force, and his mother's ghost none of which Toph has the power to bend even ignoring that e's demonstrable more powerful than him.

8: Their ruling on Superman vs Goku is based entirely on an entirely inaccurate narrative conceit. They divided by 2 when they should have multiplied by 50 while calculating Goku's speed feats: HAd they done the math correctly, Goku's speed would have dwarfed the speed they gave for Superman. The panel shown when citing Superman tanking a Super Nova has a caption box that explicitly states that he only was able to resist the Electromatic shockwave that preceded the nova itself and that he would have died instantly if he'd actually touched the nova which they blatantly ignored. Their argument that Superman is infinitely strong is based entirely on a misunderstanding of how the book f infinite pages works and ignores that he dropped it becuase of how heavy it was.

They have never known what they were talking about.

I really dislike the way you always state your opinions as if they're objective facts, despite the fact that several posters on the thread have disagreed with you about them. You're welcome to hold whatever opinions you want, and sometimes I even agree with you, but at the end of the day they're just opinions.

[Dragonus45]

No, the last time an Avatar character showed up, Zuko got curb stomped by Todoroki.

I totally forgot Todoroki and Zuko had even fought, my bad.

You mean the first time an Avatar character showed up, and they've made a lot of improvements since then.

Hard agree to disagree on this one. I sometimes think they get it right, but even when they do I'm scratching my head confused at how the hell they managed it.

[Rater202]

I really dislike the way you always state your opinions as if they're objective facts, despite the fact that several posters on the thread have disagreed with you about them. You're welcome to hold whatever opinions you want, and sometimes I even agree with you, but at the end of the day they're just opinions.

This is a panel from the Goku vs Superman fight.

To calculate Goku's speed, they took his running back across same way in half a day in comparison to the rumors of Snake Way's length. They then multiplied Goku's speed by the multiplier of every one of Goku's forms...

They give Goku's base form a speed of 64,343,057 km/hr. They give the exact same speed for his Super Saiyan 2 form.

Look in between the two: Instead of multiplying his base form by 50 to get 3,217,152,850 km/pr, they divided by 2.

Every other multiplier is correct—super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as Super Saiyan 1, Super Saiyan 3 is 4 times greater than 2... Until Super Saiyan 4 where they just kind of made an assumption.

But they made the mistake, and carried that mistake going forward. Had they done the correct multiplication, they would have ended with Goku having a top speed of 257,372,228,000 km/hr.

It is not my opinion that they made a mistake. It is a fact that they made a mistake.

[Seppl]

This is a panel from the Goku vs Superman fight.

To calculate Goku's speed, they took his running back across same way in half a day in comparison to the rumors of Snake Way's length. They then multiplied Goku's speed by the multiplier of every one of Goku's forms...

They give Goku's base form a speed of 64,343,057 km/hr. They give the exact same speed for his Super Saiyan 2 form.

Look in between the two: Instead of multiplying his base form by 50 to get 3,217,152,850 km/pr, they divided by 2.

Every other multiplier is correct—super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as Super Saiyan 1, Super Saiyan 3 is 4 times greater than 2... Until Super Saiyan 4 where they just kind of made an assumption.

But they made the mistake, and carried that mistake going forward. Had they done the correct multiplication, they would have ended with Goku having a top speed of 257,372,228,000 km/hr.

It is not my opinion that they made a mistake. It is a fact that they made a mistake.

So, they made a typo in the panel? If you actually watched the episode, they calculated base speed to be 11,000 km/h. Which gives 322,300,000 km/h for SS1, and so on, exactly as stated in the panel. {scrubbed}.

[Anteros]

So, they made a typo in the panel? If you actually watched the episode, they calculated base speed to be 11,000 km/h. Which gives 322,300,000 km/h for SS1, and so on, exactly as stated in the panel. {scrub the post, scrub the quote}.

That aside, even if you could prove definitively that DB was incorrect about this one instance, it has nothing to do with always stating your opinions as objective fact. Sometimes you're right and sometimes you're wrong, just like the rest of us.

[Wintermoot]

That aside, even if you could prove definitively that DB was incorrect about this one instance, it has nothing to do with always stating your opinions as objective fact. Sometimes you're right and sometimes you're wrong, just like the rest of us.

{scrubbed}

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Thread re-opened. Please tone down the hostility.

[Forum Explorer]

Hard agree to disagree on this one. I sometimes think they get it right, but even when they do I'm scratching my head confused at how the hell they managed it.

Fair enough. I often have some serious problems with the process they use to get their results, even if I agree with the results.

[HolyDraconus]

This time the winner is

Spoiler

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Storm. Kinda hard to justify her losing when she canonically has feats that eclipses a planet, while her opponent does not

Next time

Spoiler

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madara vs aizen. Didn’t they already say that Naruto verse beats bleach cause of the lack of calculable feats?

[Rater202]

Spoiler: Next Time

Show

Oh my god.

Peak Madara vs Peak Aizen is literally a guy who can't die against a guy who can't die.

If Aizen has the Hogyoku I'd give it to him because he'd eventually evolve into something that can negate Madara's immortality, otherwise, it's a draw.

Even if one can trap the other in an illusion, they can't physically kill each other.

[Anteros]

Spoiler

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I would say that Aizen is better at illusions, but Madara has an order of magnitude more raw power. Plenty of potential for it to he fun to watch, but I don't believe Aizen has a real chance

.

[Traab]

Spoiler: next time

Show

Hogyoku aizen is a solid match for madera in raw power and ability I think. I mean, he can cast the most powerful of kido as fast as madera can cast jutsu, and some of those are absurdly powerful, matching rinnegan feats in most cases. Plus his healing ability works like doomsday on steroids, allowing him to take a vital hit, heal, and grow resistant to that damage. And dont forget that shinigami have plenty of soul sealing techniques, so impure resurrection mode madera coming back from any attack aizen hits him with just means he has to win a different way he is fully capable of doing. Carve him to bits, then seal him away before he can recover, like we saw done dozens of times in naruto to the undead army. I think it might be aizens fight to lose. I just hope they dont pull that naruto moon cutting feat out again because it doesnt apply. Madera was not the final boss, saying that because movie naruto survived that means he could makes as much sense as saying NEJI could survive it because they fought against each other as well.

Spoiler: this time

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This battle? yeah I knew it would take some bending hijinks to rob storm of the victory. We have someone that isnt even continent level powerful against planetary level power and is at LEAST as skilled in combat both close and ranged as her, leaving speed power and durability the deciding factors. All of which went one way.

[Rynjin]

Scaling peak Madara to Naruto makes complete and perfect sense given that he is, you know, stronger than Naruto.

[Rater202]

Scaling peak Madara to Naruto makes complete and perfect sense given that he is, you know, stronger than Naruto.

That's questionable: Part of the problem with fighting Madara was overcoming the variety of tricks he had to avoid attacks, deal with his overwhelming healing factor, and freeing the Tailed Beasts from him because they didn't deserve to be imprisoned alongside him.

Madara was probably stronger than Naruto at the time but there's a lot of wiggle room, especially if you're comparing Naruto from The Last to Madara, becuase that's a few years later, Naruto got a prosthetic arm made of Hashirama Cells(which logically should have powered him up immensely not that he ever uses the unique abilities that people infused with Hashirma cells are know to have) and was probably still training in that time if only out of habit.

[Anteros]

Aizen's best power feat was blocking Ichigo's attack...which was mountain level. I feel like Madara had some stuff better than that, but I'm not super into Naruto.