DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

[Rater202]

Aizen's best power feat was blocking Ichigo's attack...which was mountain level. I feel like Madara had some stuff better than that, but I'm not super into Naruto.

Ichigo's attack wasn't a mountain level.

Ichigo accidentally leveled a mountain from the backlash of an attack. That's a significant difference.

the biggest thing Aizen tanked was the Final Getsua Tensho, which... Honestly looks to be comparable to a Nuke. IT didn't actually hurt Aizen, but it did make Aizen realize that Ichigo's power dwarfed his own and that blow to his spirit caused the Hogyoku to abandon him, allowing Urahara o seal him.

Even then Aizen still evolved one last time, returning to human form and absorbing the physical form of his Zanpakuto. The reason he's imprisoned in the last two arcs is becuase Sol Society just flat out can't execute him. The only thing that might have stood a chance was the Sōkyoku which uses the power of 1,000,000 zanpakuto increased tenfold at the exact moment it makes contact with the victim to literally destroy your soul... But it was destroyed to stop it from being used to execute Rukia.

Madara, meanwhile, possesses a regenerative healing factor that, so he claimed, made him completely immortal once he got the final power boost from absorbing the Shinju.

[Rynjin]

Considering Madara likewise tanked an attack that busted mountains as collateral damage, by Death Battle's own Guy write-up created BLACK HOLES ON HIT, and regenerated from half his body being disintegrated from the friction of it, I'm inclined to believe him.

[Rater202]

Considering Madara likewise tanked an attack that busted mountains as collateral damage, by Death Battle's own Guy write-up created BLACK HOLES ON HIT, and regenerated from half his body being disintegrated from the friction of it, I'm inclined to believe him.

And that was before he got the final power-up and claimed to be immortal.

He died from the consequences of having the main brunt of his ridiculous power-ups ripped out of him, which had previously been established to have been near-universally fatal. Not from anything the protagonists did.

And that's really not a power that Aizen has available to him.

So we've got a fight between a guy who can't die and a guy who can't die.

It's not a question of who wins, it's a question of who DB is going to screw over to justify one of them dying since these are fights to the death.

[Rynjin]

If it's not Aizen who loses I'll be surprised because the universal problem with Bleach is that Kubo is a hack and nobody has any feats. Kubo just says "they're stronger now lol" but they keep doing the exact same stuff with the exact same impact.

[Rater202]

If it's not Aizen who loses I'll be surprised because the universal problem with Bleach is that Kubo is a hack and nobody has any feats. Kubo just says "they're stronger now lol" but they keep doing the exact same stuff with the exact same impact.

I think that losing to someone, getting stronger, and then coming back and beating that same someone is kind of the opposite of that?

Also, we do see feats. Like when Ichigo after having his powers restored, cleared the rain clowns over a forest with a practice swing that Ginjo thought was a Getsuga.

Before that, a depowered Ichigo was able to punch of man's head into the asphalt so hard that the asphalt shattered.

Compared to early on when his raw power was great but he was otherwise just a kid who was good at fighting.

Edit: Double checking, the practice swing that Ginjo thought was a getsuga and Ichigo clearing the skies were separate events, one after the other, with the clear sky being an actual getsuga. But still, clearing the sky(and cutting a mansion in half) with an attack that when he first unlocked it was basically a generic energy blast that was only useful for killing mooks? Clear demonstration of improvement over time.

[Rynjin]

I think that losing to someone, getting stronger, and then coming back and beating that same someone is kind of the opposite of that?

But what does this MEAN? In terms of what any of the characters can actually DO. They never gain new capabilities or anything, so there's nothing to go off of except "power level up fight dude good win".

It's worse than Dragon Ball in that regard. When they get a powerup there's usually some kind of feat to point to that goes along with it.

Also, we do see feats. Like when Ichigo after having his powers restored, cleared the rain clowns over a forest with a practice swing that Ginjo thought was a Getsuga.

Before that, a depowered Ichigo was able to punch of man's head into the asphalt so hard that the asphalt shattered.

Compared to early on when his raw power was great but he was otherwise just a kid who was good at fighting.

Edit: Double checking, the practice swing that Ginjo thought was a getsuga and Ichigo clearing the skies were separate events, one after the other, with the clear sky being an actual getsuga. But still, clearing the sky(and cutting a mansion in half) with an attack that when he first unlocked it was basically a generic energy blast that was only useful for killing mooks? Clear demonstration of improvement over time.

This sounds really impresive until you realize Ichigo cut a skyscraper in half in his first fight with Kenpachi.

I am not joking when I say there's zero visible power difference from early in the series.

[Rater202]

They never gain new capabilities or anything, so there's nothing to go off of except "power level up fight dude good win".

Ichigo trainig with Urahara to awaken his own Soul Reaper powers, which also grants him Shikai and the Getuga—new capability.

Ichigo and Renji gaining Banka, which multiplies your raw power by ten times over, in Ichigo's case makes his energy use more efficient, boosts his speed to absurd levels, and grant him a stronger version of the Getsuga and in Renji's case give him an energy blast in addition to a much larger weapon—new capabilities.

I'm not gonna count Ichigo's hollow mak training since it mostly amounts to raw power, but in this time when Uryu is trying to regain his lost powers, he also develops new abilities with his bow, being able to make it fire a spray of energy blasts, in addition, to actually using it as a bow.

In Las Noches, Sado's (then unnamed) fullbring evolved granting him additional attacks. Also, Rukia demonstrates an application of her Zanpakuo's abilities that had not been shown before.

Ichigo's Dangai Training: Ichigo gain the ability to merge with his weapon, releasing a far more powerful energy attack than normal at the cost of burning out most of his powers.

Lost Agent Arc: Ichigo spends the entire arc training to develop a new ability in the hopes of eventually getting his orignal powers back. Most of the power he gains in this manner is later stolen from him, but he retains the basic ability and enough of it to permanently upgrade his powers. Likewise, we find out that Orihime developed a new application of her own Fullbring off-screen, and Byakuya spontaneously develops a new use for Senbonsakura becuase Tsukishima knew literally all of his other moves and that was the only way he could win though admittedly "punching the guy while holding blades in my hand" isn't all that indicative a technique.

Thousand-Year Blood War: Rukia unlocks bankai, develops several capabilities she did not possess before a sa result. Renji masters his Bankai, developing new applications for it. Ichigo develops the ability Blut Vene, the power to harden his body against injury and compress bleeding wounds, the ability to fire a second, smaller getsuga from his offhand sword and use two of them simultaneously for a wider area attack.

They develop plenty of new capabilities.

[Anteros]

Ichigo's attack wasn't a mountain level.

Ichigo accidentally leveled a mountain from the backlash of an attack. That's a significant difference.

It's not really helpful for gauging anything. All we know if that he can bust mountains. Maybe he has more power than that, but it isn't shown and isn't quantifiable.

[Forum Explorer]

I think that losing to someone, getting stronger, and then coming back and beating that same someone is kind of the opposite of that?

Also, we do see feats. Like when Ichigo after having his powers restored, cleared the rain clowns over a forest with a practice swing that Ginjo thought was a Getsuga.

Before that, a depowered Ichigo was able to punch of man's head into the asphalt so hard that the asphalt shattered.

Compared to early on when his raw power was great but he was otherwise just a kid who was good at fighting.

Edit: Double checking, the practice swing that Ginjo thought was a getsuga and Ichigo clearing the skies were separate events, one after the other, with the clear sky being an actual getsuga. But still, clearing the sky(and cutting a mansion in half) with an attack that when he first unlocked it was basically a generic energy blast that was only useful for killing mooks? Clear demonstration of improvement over time.

I mean, the first time Ichigo used bankai he created and dispersed a massive dust cloud in a matter of moments.

[Rynjin]

Ichigo trainig with Urahara to awaken his own Soul Reaper powers, which also grants him Shikai and the Getuga—new capability.

Ichigo and Renji gaining Banka, which multiplies your raw power by ten times over, in Ichigo's case makes his energy use more efficient, boosts his speed to absurd levels, and grant him a stronger version of the Getsuga and in Renji's case give him an energy blast in addition to a much larger weapon—new capabilities.

I'm not gonna count Ichigo's hollow mak training since it mostly amounts to raw power, but in this time when Uryu is trying to regain his lost powers, he also develops new abilities with his bow, being able to make it fire a spray of energy blasts, in addition, to actually using it as a bow.

In Las Noches, Sado's (then unnamed) fullbring evolved granting him additional attacks. Also, Rukia demonstrates an application of her Zanpakuo's abilities that had not been shown before.

Ichigo's Dangai Training: Ichigo gain the ability to merge with his weapon, releasing a far more powerful energy attack than normal at the cost of burning out most of his powers.

Lost Agent Arc: Ichigo spends the entire arc training to develop a new ability in the hopes of eventually getting his orignal powers back. Most of the power he gains in this manner is later stolen from him, but he retains the basic ability and enough of it to permanently upgrade his powers. Likewise, we find out that Orihime developed a new application of her own Fullbring off-screen, and Byakuya spontaneously develops a new use for Senbonsakura becuase Tsukishima knew literally all of his other moves and that was the only way he could win though admittedly "punching the guy while holding blades in my hand" isn't all that indicative a technique.

Thousand-Year Blood War: Rukia unlocks bankai, develops several capabilities she did not possess before a sa result. Renji masters his Bankai, developing new applications for it. Ichigo develops the ability Blut Vene, the power to harden his body against injury and compress bleeding wounds, the ability to fire a second, smaller getsuga from his offhand sword and use two of them simultaneously for a wider area attack.

They develop plenty of new capabilities.

The fact that this is very nearly every single powerup in the series and it doesn't even create a top 10 list is exactly what I'm talking about.

Hell, it doesn't even make a top 5: Dangai is a oneshot powerup Ichigo can never use again. Even if you count the mask training (which I also wouldn't), that's still only 4 potential "new powers" you could point at for Ichigo specifically, and yet still none of them are a visually impressive powerup save for the TWO he gets in the Soul Society arc.

His Fullbring ability doesn't seem to actually add any capability once he gets his sword back, it just changes his costume a little.

In terms of visible feats, Ichigo's feat from the end of the penultimate arc (cutting the mansion in half) is as impressive (arguably less) as his feat from near the beginning of the second arc (cutting the skyscraper against Kenpachi).

[Traab]

I think the main problems are a lack of outside feats to work with. Like, we see ichigo going from his sword basically bouncing off kenpachi to actually cutting him. How do we translate that into things like tnt? Usually in these types of anime you get to see environmental damage done to display the difference. A mountain explodes, a moon gets melted, all of the universe gets sucked into two giant drills that clash with each other in a big bang. In Bleach while yes there is some of that, its generally more "I couldnt hurt you before, but now I can" which is far less measurable of a feat. They are clearly getting stronger, but its got no point of reference.

[Keltest]

I think the main problems are a lack of outside feats to work with. Like, we see ichigo going from his sword basically bouncing off kenpachi to actually cutting him. How do we translate that into things like tnt? Usually in these types of anime you get to see environmental damage done to display the difference. A mountain explodes, a moon gets melted, all of the universe gets sucked into two giant drills that clash with each other in a big bang. In Bleach while yes there is some of that, its generally more "I couldnt hurt you before, but now I can" which is far less measurable of a feat. They are clearly getting stronger, but its got no point of reference.

Why do we need to translate it into anything? Cutting power is already a very specific measurement.

[Anteros]

Why do we need to translate it into anything? Cutting power is already a very specific measurement.

Because it's useless. How much cutting power is "enough to cut Kenpachi"? How fast is "Fast enough to see Byakuya"? Most of Bleach's scaling is in comparison to other characters and not concrete feats. It makes it hard to judge how powerful they actually are.

Like, is Ichigo at the end of the series stronger than the Ichigo that fought Aizen? I legitimately have no idea. We can presume so since everyone in soul society keeps talking about how he's their only hope, but he never actually displays that level of power again.

[Rynjin]

Exactly. That's the issue with Bleach in a nutshell. None of the characters ever actually DO anything, and sometimes even what is stated is outright contradicted by what we're shown, or seems laughably irrelevant.

Ichigo's Bankai is a great example. What does it actually DO? It "compresses all his power down into a smaller sword" which...what? Makes it cut harder? Something else?

Supposedly it makes him faster, but considering he still gets speed blitzed by every single other opponent he ever faces in the entire series (notably including the VERY FIRST PERSON HE FIGHTS AFTER GETTING IT) that seems more informed attribute than anything.

Even if we accept it does make him faster...by how much? Double, triple? What even is his base speed to compare against? We don't know, because everything is only in relation to other characters. He never, say, dodges a lightning bolt, or catches bullets with his bare hands, or any other particular feats that are vaguely measurable. He's just either "faster or slower than this other guy we also don't know how fast they are".

His transformations make him stronger? Yeah, SHOW ME. You can't, really. He cuts a skyscraper in half against Kenpachi, and then his big impressive setpiece moment against Ulquiorra in his Super Turbo Hollow Form is...destroying another skyscraper that's a little bit bigger? Maybe? If it is it's not by much.

We know it makes him stronger than Ulquiorra, who is capable of shooting a laser beam that can supposedly destroy Hueco Mundo, which would be an impressive feat if he ever actually DID anything like that, and instead said laser beam only destroys...a single big tower/skyscraper thing. Again.

What else does Ulquiorra ever do? Uhhh...he moves faster than Ichigo does (like everyone else in the series lmao) and can shove his fingers through human flesh? I guess? That's about it. It's all we see him do.


Or what about the fight with Aizen? Whose most impressive feat is that he can...kill normal people just by being in their presence. Which is actually pretty neat, but it does nothing to tell us, like, what he can DO in terms of power. I think he blasts a pretty big hole in the ground once?

That's about it.

Based on feats alone, Bleach is on an absurdly low power for a shonen action series because the only thing Kubo knows how to do is say that one character is stronger than another.

[Forum Explorer]

Because it's useless. How much cutting power is "enough to cut Kenpachi"? How fast is "Fast enough to see Byakuya"? Most of Bleach's scaling is in comparison to other characters and not concrete feats. It makes it hard to judge how powerful they actually are.

Like, is Ichigo at the end of the series stronger than the Ichigo that fought Aizen? I legitimately have no idea. We can presume so since everyone in soul society keeps talking about how he's their only hope, but he never actually displays that level of power again.

We can't even use descriptions either. They aren't as 'hard as diamond' or anything like that. Just 'you need x amount of power to cut me'. It isn't something that translates into tons of TNT at all.

[Rater202]

the Arrancar asll have skin described as "hard as steel" though, just as steel quality varies, so too does the toughness of individual Arrancar, so there's that.

Regarding Ichigo getting speed blitzes by later opponents: If you recall, Ichigo's max speed when in Bankai is actually faster than what he himself is capable of withstanding. He was actively hurting himself going top speed.

It's not that other people, later on, are faster than him. IT's that he's just not going fast enough to hurt himself anymore.

(Also the Old Man was actively surpressing the lion's share of Ichigo's power and only letting him draw out as much as he needed becuase he didn't want Ichigo to be a Soul Reaper. That's the reason why Ichigo's power doesn't seem to get bigger. It is, it just immediately gets locked away.)

[Anteros]

the Arrancar asll have skin described as "hard as steel" though, just as steel quality varies, so too does the toughness of individual Arrancar, so there's that.

Regarding Ichigo getting speed blitzes by later opponents: If you recall, Ichigo's max speed when in Bankai is actually faster than what he himself is capable of withstanding. He was actively hurting himself going top speed.

It's not that other people, later on, are faster than him. IT's that he's just not going fast enough to hurt himself anymore.

(Also the Old Man was actively surpressing the lion's share of Ichigo's power and only letting him draw out as much as he needed becuase he didn't want Ichigo to be a Soul Reaper. That's the reason why Ichigo's power doesn't seem to get bigger. It is, it just immediately gets locked away.)

Power that a character can't utilize isn't actually power at all. Aside from which, none of it solves the main issue which is...we're told the characters are powerful, but only in comparison to one another. We have no idea how powerful they actually are. Is end of series Ichigo mountain level? Continent? Planet? He could be any of them. We have no clue.

Now, I'm not sure that's a criticism of the series itself. I don't actually care how powerful a character is as long as their story is interesting...but it does make it hard to scale them for things like vs threads.

[Rynjin]

the Arrancar asll have skin described as "hard as steel" though, just as steel quality varies, so too does the toughness of individual Arrancar, so there's that.

Hard as iron, actually, not even steel. Hierro is just the Spanish word for iron.

Now, I'm not sure that's a criticism of the series itself. I don't actually care how powerful a character is as long as their story is interesting...but it does make it hard to scale them for things like vs threads.

I find it to be pretty important when it comes to fighting manga, especially a series like Bleach that has nothing narratively going for it, so it needs to have better action to compensate.

How Bleach remained one of the "Big 3" for so long baffles me.

[Rater202]

Power that a character can't utilize isn't actually power at all. Aside from which, none of it solves the main issue which is...we're told the characters are powerful, but only in comparison to one another. We have no idea how powerful they actually are. Is end of series Ichigo mountain level? Continent? Planet? He could be any of them. We have no clue.

Well, he was powerful enough to severely injure a man who had just eaten the being whose very existence hold reality together and stolen his power by doing so, and said being responded by trying to destroy Ichigo's Bankai so that he couldn't use his full power against him.

There were earthquakes in the mortal world caused by Yhach powering up after absorbing the soul king, and Ukitake had to sacrifice his life and invoke the Kamikake to stabilize it... And then Yhwach ate the Kamikake too.

According to Can't Fear Your Own World, a Light Novel that Kubo has explicitly stated is fully canonical, those Earthquakes were felt evenly across the entire planet.

So... We can infer that Ichigo is in the same ball part as a planet-tier fighter.

[Anteros]

I find it to be pretty important when it comes to fighting manga, especially a series like Bleach that has nothing narratively going for it, so it needs to have better action to compensate.

How Bleach remained one of the "Big 3" for so long baffles me.

Bleach always relied on its ensemble cast and cool character designs. For all it's problems, you can't deny that some of the scenes and characters are really freaking cool. I agree that it's poorly written, but I can still understand why it was popular. The scene where Ichigo rescues Rukia is probably one of the best in any anime.

Well, he was powerful enough to severely injure a man who had just eaten the being whose very existence hold reality together and stolen his power by doing so, and said being responded by trying to destroy Ichigo's Bankai so that he couldn't use his full power against him.

There were earthquakes in the mortal world caused by Yhach powering up after absorbing the soul king, and Ukitake had to sacrifice his life and invoke the Kamikake to stabilize it... And then Yhwach ate the Kamikake too.

According to Can't Fear Your Own World, a Light Novel that Kubo has explicitly stated is fully canonical, those Earthquakes were felt evenly across the entire planet.

So... We can infer that Ichigo is in the same ball part as a planet-tier fighter.

None of that necessarily translates to combat power though. His existence maintained the balance, but if I move the anything that something is balancing on it will shake and fall down. You can balance a piece of steel on top of a bottle cap. That doesn't mean the bottle cap can destroy the steel. Further, the soul king was replaced by one sickly captain who is almost certainly weaker than both Ywach and Ichigo. Important doesn't always mean powerful.

[Rater202]

Actually no, The Kmikake stabilized things... But the Kamikaze was a piece of the Soul King, and even then that was only temporary. Ukitake wasn't sick... He physically didn't have lungs and the Kamikake was keeping him alive.

Trading his life to the Kamikake was, essentially, altering a deal his parents made from "keep our child with alive in exchange for his lungs" to "keep everyone alive for as long as possible in exchange for my life." And that was a temporary measure, it stopped the Earth Quake, but even if Yhwach hadn't absorbed the Kamikake the world would have still be destroyed eventually, because that was Yhwach's goal.

According to that canonical light novel I mentioned, The Soul King was replaced by a "New" Soul King made from Yhwach's corpse, which they were able to do becuase he absorbed the orignal Soul King.

Squad Zero had been fully planning on losing the orignal in the conflict, they'd been planning to make Ichigo the new Soul King, which they could have done becuase of his unique nature as a hybrid of all four types of soul which is the real reason.

Squad Zero was also apparently behind Soul Society claiming Gingo's corpse after Ichiog killed him—while he's not as strong as Ichigo, he has a similar backstory being a human with both soul reaper and Quincy ancestry wo inherit hollow powers from a mother and then had his spiritual powers awakened by a transfer of reitatsu from a Soul Reaper.(This backstory information is related by Ginjo himself in the light novel, when Shuhei visits him at the Siba residence in the Rukon and interviews him during the same light novel, and the fact that hes' capable of being a Soul King is a plot point in the same.)

Incidentally, per the light novel, the process of making a Soul King is incredibly horrible, and everyone who finds out how immediately decides that Aizen had a point in wanting to overthrow the system entirely. We don't know the details...

But we know that the Soul King's Arms, Legs, Brain, Chain of Fate, an organ referred to as a "nail," and his Shrift were removed.

This brings us to... The fact that the Soul King's various body members were either active and independent entities—the Kamikake and Pernida Parnkgjas are his arms. Gremmy Thoumeaux is his brain(and his title as V is apparently honorary, that's his own power, not a Schrift granted by Yhwach). His Schrift, the Almighty, was incarnated in a human infant and became his "son" Yhwach.

His Chain of Fate and Nail, meanwhile, were respectively being passed down parent to child by a lineage in the Rukon district and on earth. His Nail was last known to be embedded in the soul of Matsumoto before being ripped out and used to make Aizen's half of the Hogyoku. His Chain is currently embedded in the soul of a Fullbringer named Aura Michibane, an antagonist from the light novel, who has raw power comparable to Aizen as a direct consequence of having the Soul King's chain. (they don't specify if they mean Sul Reaper Aizen or Transcendental Aizen.)

Aura doesn't have a "personal" fullbring becuase her upbringing has left her too emotionally stunted to be capable of the kind of sentimentality, but her raw power lets her do things like turn her entire body intangible to both material and spiritual attacks, transmute organic matter at the atomic level, and turns chunks of earth or bodies of water into dragons with just the basic universal power that all fullbringers have.

So, since all of the Soul King's known body members are absurdly powerful and have some connection to reality warping as a concept, it can be inferred that the Soul King is(or at least was) ridiculously powerful.

[Keltest]

Because it's useless. How much cutting power is "enough to cut Kenpachi"? How fast is "Fast enough to see Byakuya"? Most of Bleach's scaling is in comparison to other characters and not concrete feats. It makes it hard to judge how powerful they actually are.

Like, is Ichigo at the end of the series stronger than the Ichigo that fought Aizen? I legitimately have no idea. We can presume so since everyone in soul society keeps talking about how he's their only hope, but he never actually displays that level of power again.

As opposed to "number of geographic features exploded" which is so far removed from physics that it isnt really any more meaningful? I can understand wanting numbers to work with, but changing the units isnt going to reveal the variable we dont know.

[tyckspoon]

As opposed to "number of geographic features exploded" which is so far removed from physics that it isnt really any more meaningful? I can understand wanting numbers to work with, but changing the units isnt going to reveal the variable we dont know.

"Bleach loses because we can't figure out how many tons worth of exploding TNT it would take to raise the souls of your defeated enemies as flaming ghost zombies" may actually be a perfect summary of how silly Death Battle's premise of 'we use math to give a completely defensible and thought out answer to who would win a fight' really is. (Well, that or the thing where they use questionable assumptions to 'prove' that somebody's speed is massively superluminal and then pretend that you can make sensible statements about anything at all after that.)

[Anteros]

I mean, you can phrase anything to sound silly...but it's objective fact that it's easier to measure "how much force would it take to destroy a mountain" than it is to measure "he couldn't cut this guy before and now he can"

Sure. Vs threads and anime/comics are all goofy. We're all still here participating in them though.

[Keltest]

"Bleach loses because we can't figure out how many tons worth of exploding TNT it would take to raise the souls of your defeated enemies as flaming ghost zombies" may actually be a perfect summary of how silly Death Battle's premise of 'we use math to give a completely defensible and thought out answer to who would win a fight' really is. (Well, that or the thing where they use questionable assumptions to 'prove' that somebody's speed is massively superluminal and then pretend that you can make sensible statements about anything at all after that.)

In fairness to Death Battles, i dont know that its a problem with their premise so much as some of the material they choose to work with. How do you compare two different media where the numbers are made up and physics dont matter in different ways?

Heck, that discussion a ways back about Shadow and the scissors. "This needs to be scissors." "Here is a thing that duplicates the effects of scissors, with some extra stuff that doesnt work." "Ok, but its not scissors so it doesnt count." How do you even approach resolving that?

[HolyDraconus]

In fairness to Death Battles, i dont know that its a problem with their premise so much as some of the material they choose to work with. How do you compare two different media where the numbers are made up and physics dont matter in different ways?

Heck, that discussion a ways back about Shadow and the scissors. "This needs to be scissors." "Here is a thing that duplicates the effects of scissors, with some extra stuff that doesnt work." "Ok, but its not scissors so it doesnt count." How do you even approach resolving that?

Ugh... why bring that back?? Now we gonna have Binary vs 18 all over again

[Rater202]

In fairness to Death Battles, i dont know that its a problem with their premise so much as some of the material they choose to work with. How do you compare two different media where the numbers are made up and physics dont matter in different ways?

Heck, that discussion a ways back about Shadow and the scissors. "This needs to be scissors." "Here is a thing that duplicates the effects of scissors, with some extra stuff that doesnt work." "Ok, but its not scissors so it doesn't count." How do you even approach resolving that?

You don't.

The Kill La Kill source material is very, very clear on this subject matter: It has to be truly simultaneous cuts at perfectly symmetrical angles striking the exact same point at the exact same time from opposite ends with a single slice. You can't saw through the fibers, can't burn through them, can't crush through them.

If you don't cleanly slice through the fibers from both sides in simultaneously and perfectly symmetrical angles they'll just fuse right back together.

Something else should be just as good because of physics? Irrelevant Physics also says that it's impossible to compress yourself down to exist in two dimensions and act like a cartoon character but Life Fibers disagree with that assertion. You know ho in the Cthulhu Mythos pretty much everything humans know about science is wrong and based on misunderstandings? It's like that, except instead of looking like fish and squid the eldritch monstrosities are tuxedoes and balls of thread.

Isshin MAtoi faked the death of his human-life fiber hybrid daughter, used her DNA to create a benevolent strain of life fibers, wove a Kamui to empower her, and created the Scissor Blades and raised Ryuko with the intent that Ryuko would use the Kamui and Scissor Blades to kill Ragyo and the Primordial Life Fiber becuase that's the only option he had. Nothing else he was capable of doing would have worked.

Granted: There is a single datapoint that suggests that the healing factor might not be as strong as presented: When Ragyo is defeated, she elects to kill herself rather than entertain any idea of penance or redemption when offered and does so by crushing her own heart... But 1: Ryuko's Life Fiber Powers, including her healing factor, are greater than Ragyo's by this point 2: It's entirely possible that Ragyo can consciously decide not to regenerate and 3: It's entirely possible that her crushing her own heart had nothing to do with her exploding intl Life fibers and that it was a purely symbolic gesture—she essentially elected to commit suicide out of spite after all.

The scene is ambigous enough that we really don't know what it means.

[Anteros]

You don't.

The Kill La Kill source material is very, very clear on this subject matter: It has to be truly simultaneous cuts at perfectly symmetrical angles striking the exact same point at the exact same time from opposite ends with a single slice. You can't saw through the fibers, can't burn through them, can't crush through them..

I just wonder how many times you're going to repeat this argument. You've already seen the counter argument like 12 times from multiple people. At this point it's probably time to accept we won't be convincing each other.

[Rater202]

I just wonder how many times you're going to repeat this argument. You've already seen the counter argument like 12 times from multiple people. At this point it's probably time to accept we won't be convincing each other.

No, I've seen a dozen people who make a counterargument that falls flat becuase it requires ignoring the kill la kill source material.

[HolyDraconus]

No, I've seen a dozen people who make a counterargument that falls flat becuase it requires ignoring the kill la kill source material.

Considering that one of the arguments that was made is that Shadow is literally fast enough to be in two places at one time and can meet the "scissor" mechanic, regardless of there being zero evidence of any other research done besides "this works, lets use it", as well as canonically KNOWS about her and should be smart enough to use that knowledge, and you keep ignoring it with the equivalent of "nuh huh!", Anteros is spot on.