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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I was a bit annoyed by the standard "Travel speed = combat speed" nonsense, but thats nothing new. Once I saw the numbers they were giving mickey due to gods being gods I was pretty sure it was over.
    I also find it annoying to conflate a droid being able to react to something at a speed to it being able to actually act at that speed but that's nothing new either. Also, "travel time" is such a weird thing to try and actually measure when literal magic is involved.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Eh, sort of weird overall, but they've gotta pull their measurements from somewhere.

    And the whole Yoda/Mickey fight was odd, with Yoda displaying abilities that he never has before, to the best of my knowledge. Did he read Naruto's mind on the way over or something? And what was with those energy blasts? And why didn't Stopza even show up in the fight?

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    I've giving it to Ryuko.

    While Shadow is the "Ultimate Life Form" that refers only to his clinical immortality and perfect immune system, he can still be killed manually.

    Ryuko, as a perfect human/life fiber Hybrid, has the sea regenerative powers as mamma Ragyo and half-sister Nui, which is to say, once her powers mature, she can only be injured, let alone killed, but two cutting attacks striking the same part of her body from oposite sides. Otherwise, her injuries will regenerate. Tear her apart and the fibers will pull her back together.

    As far as I know, Shadow doesn't use a sword.

    It's gonna be a battle of attrition, with Ryuko having to wear Shadow out, becuase I honestly think that Shadow is too fast for Ryuko to get a hit, but Shadow can't actually inflict a meaningful injury on Ryuko.
    Agreed.

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    Shadow doesnt have any specific proclivity for swords that im aware of, but there isnt anything stopping him from just picking up a sharp piece of metal or something.

    Chaos Control can also do some pretty funky time-space shenanigans, though it requires Chaos Emeralds in at least semi-near proximity to perform. Stopping time on her and then just max speed karate chopping her in the requisite locations might count as a poor (rich?) man's sword blow.
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    It takes more than just metal. It's a very particular kind of Anti-Life Fiber metal needed. Without that it is nigh impossible to actually cut Ryuko in the first place.

    And the blow needs to basically be perfect. Any difference in timing between the two sides is enough for her to recover. And you have to destroy the limb afterwards, else she can just manually reattach it.

    And that's before we get into her Kamui. She can't keep up with Super Shadow, but it bolsters her strength, speed, and durability to even more ludicrous levels. Oh and it can transform into basically whatever Ryuko needs.

    Basically, I'm pretty sure this is an easy win for Ryuko.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

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    Imagine Venom.

    Now imagine Venom without any weaknesses, and he's bonded to Wolverine after Wolverine was given Captain America's Super Soldier Serum.

    Except he was given the serum and Venom in the womb.

    Now imagine that he's wearing a second Venom. And also has a pair of indestructible swords that can cut through almost anything.

    That's Ryuko.

    Shadow's only chance of winning is to take the scissor blades from Ryuko, form them into the rending Sheers, and use them on her... Over a volcano.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    I seem to remember Shadow has a "Chaos Spear" attack, where he summons a bunch of energy spears from all around the target. It's also pretty much impossible to avoid.
    Is Ryuko vulnerable to energy attacks?
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKarious View Post
    I seem to remember Shadow has a "Chaos Spear" attack, where he summons a bunch of energy spears from all around the target. It's also pretty much impossible to avoid.
    Is Ryuko vulnerable to energy attacks?
    Not at all. She's basically immune to them.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by SKarious View Post
    I seem to remember Shadow has a "Chaos Spear" attack, where he summons a bunch of energy spears from all around the target. It's also pretty much impossible to avoid.
    Is Ryuko vulnerable to energy attacks?
    It doesn't come up, but she did survive atmospheric reentry unharmed.

    The heat and the landing.

    So heat resistance is a thing, energy resistance can be extrapolated since heat is energy.

    Edit: Wait, do energy attacks come up? I'm second-guessing myself now.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-03-09 at 01:18 AM.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It doesn't come up, but she did survive atmospheric reentry unharmed.

    The heat and the landing.

    So heat resistance is a thing, energy resistance can be extrapolated since heat is energy.

    Edit: Wait, do energy attacks come up? I'm second-guessing myself now.
    I thought someone set her on fire at one point. She certainly tanks a lot of different explosions, so that's somewhat energy. Oh, and she certainly withstood massive sound waves.

    I can't remember if Ryugo shot a laser at her or not though. It certainly feels like it should've happened.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Ugh, I hate it when you have characters only vulnerable to a single setting specific thing. Makes death battles stupid because then they have to scramble around looking for something, ANYTHING they can pretend works as a similar effect or has an ability that bypasses it somehow. Which of course opens a huge can of worms as you have one setting saying, "Nope, not even then" and a second setting saying "It is a universal killer of everything" and DB has to pretend it works or else the battle cant happen.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    Eh, sort of weird overall, but they've gotta pull their measurements from somewhere.
    Do they? I'd much rather they try to actually be accurate than make things up to fill in the gaps.

    Making things up to support an arbitrary position and pretending it's scientific is the death battle way though.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Ugh, I hate it when you have characters only vulnerable to a single setting specific thing. Makes death battles stupid because then they have to scramble around looking for something, ANYTHING they can pretend works as a similar effect or has an ability that bypasses it somehow. Which of course opens a huge can of worms as you have one setting saying, "Nope, not even then" and a second setting saying "It is a universal killer of everything" and DB has to pretend it works or else the battle cant happen.
    In this case it's more that the only things shown to be durable enough to cut mature life-fibers are 1: Other mature life-fibers compressed and hardened into a metallic substances(the rending shears) or whatever the hell unique metal the sword bakuzan was made from.

    (All we know about Bakuzan is that it can cut life-fibers, cut metal, but unlike the scissor blades is not indestructible. And that it can be grafted to a human body without any serious issues—Satsuki had her toe-nails replaced with fake ones made of the same metal.)
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    To throw some defense to Shadow, he scales to Sonic. And Sonic has proven multiple times he explicitly does NOT need emeralds to use Chaos Control. And Sonic's primary form of attacking people is to curl up into a ball, spin fast enough to be a buzz saw, and ram people. I don't think Shadow needs a sword. However, its argued that Shadow is faster than Sonic, since he did flat out outrun Sonic's homing attack and has beaten him in a race. Shadow has outrun black holes, survived when time and space collapsed, created portals in time and space, traveled through time, breathes in space, can enter cyberspace with a karate chop (its as weird as it sounds), can heal himself, is in some forms a genius (which may or may not matter depending on how they run with it), can create afterimages and tornados from running, has fought gods, and all of that with all four of his limiters on. While I'm fairly certain that Super Shadow won't make an appearance, Chaos Boost should, but Shadow without his limiters stacked on either form hasn't been done but theoretically is possible.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    To throw some defense to Shadow, he scales to Sonic. And Sonic has proven multiple times he explicitly does NOT need emeralds to use Chaos Control. And Sonic's primary form of attacking people is to curl up into a ball, spin fast enough to be a buzz saw, and ram people. I don't think Shadow needs a sword. However, its argued that Shadow is faster than Sonic, since he did flat out outrun Sonic's homing attack and has beaten him in a race. Shadow has outrun black holes, survived when time and space collapsed, created portals in time and space, traveled through time, breathes in space, can enter cyberspace with a karate chop (its as weird as it sounds), can heal himself, is in some forms a genius (which may or may not matter depending on how they run with it), can create afterimages and tornados from running, has fought gods, and all of that with all four of his limiters on. While I'm fairly certain that Super Shadow won't make an appearance, Chaos Boost should, but Shadow without his limiters stacked on either form hasn't been done but theoretically is possible.
    Yeah, Shadow's a badass. That's not in question.

    But he's fighting someone who can only be injured in one very specific way: A highly durable cutting edge striking the same point in her body from opposite sides simultaneously.

    (There's a reason why the weapon Isshin created to kill Ragyo, who has the same powers, is a giant pair of scissors.)

    Also, doing some research, such an attack specificaly had to be used to destroy her heart or brain. You can't just cut her arm off and wait for her to bleed to death...

    ...Honestly, she might not be able to bleed to death. Senketsu initially needing a constant drain of her blood is presented as a weakness(which she later overcomes) but even before her dormant powers are activated she sheds a lot of blood with no consequences.

    And, IIRC, she gets stronger as the fibers in her body repair her body and themselves, not unlike a Saiyan(and considering that Senketsu's strongest form gives Ryuko glowing golden hair, I imagine that the reference is intentional.)

    There are no apparent limits to Ryuko's regenerative abilities, other than the one specific method of inflicting injuries that don't automatically heal. By the final battle, she's not even bothering to defend herself as her boy is pierced and torn apart only to be healed before the gaping holesin her flesh can even inconvenience her.

    It's also implied that by the final episode that she doesn't have to breathe anymore.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    For someone as fast as sonic or shadow, striking someone simultaneously on both sides is trivial. It comes down to whether or not they rule Shadow can cut her or not.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    For someone as fast as sonic or shadow, striking someone simultaneously on both sides is trivial. It comes down to whether or not they rule Shadow can cut her or not.
    Heck, Shadow can literally stop time. It doesn't even matter how fash he is because he can just casually start to cut the other side before the first cut has even been processed.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    For someone as fast as sonic or shadow, striking someone simultaneously on both sides is trivial. It comes down to whether or not they rule Shadow can cut her or not.
    I mean, litterally simultaneously. Even the smallest delay makes it worthless. And precision is likewise important--the blows have to line up perfectly.

    There's also the matter of whether Shadow can figure out her weakness. Most people would see a girl instantly pulling back together after being cut in half and assume that cutting just isn't gonna work.

    Shadow uses bare hands, impacts, energy powers, and sometimes guns. I don't think his arsenal includes anything that can meaningfully her Ryuko.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I mean, litterally simultaneously. Even the smallest delay makes it worthless. And precision is likewise important--the blows have to line up perfectly.

    There's also the matter of whether Shadow can figure out her weakness. Most people would see a girl instantly pulling back together after being cut in half and assume that cutting just isn't gonna work.

    Shadow uses bare hands, impacts, energy powers, and sometimes guns. I don't think his arsenal includes anything that can meaningfully her Ryuko.
    Shadow IS a genius though. It’s usually played down but he has been shown to merely glance at Eggman’s tech and immediately analyze it. He also can create rifts in time as well as black holes: he has the power to do the job, the question becomes can he last long enough to land it? Stamina has always been Shadow’s secret weakness.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Shadow IS a genius though. It’s usually played down but he has been shown to merely glance at Eggman’s tech and immediately analyze it. He also can create rifts in time as well as black holes: he has the power to do the job, the question becomes can he last long enough to land it? Stamina has always been Shadow’s secret weakness.
    Looking at a machine and understanding how it works is a very different skill from looking at an organism and understanding how t's biology works.

    You can't, in complete seriousness, say that Shadow could cut Ryuko in half, see her be pulled back together, and then not only conclude that he needs to cut all of her fibers but also how to cut them.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Looking at a machine and understanding how it works is a very different skill from looking at an organism and understanding how t's biology works.

    You can't, in complete seriousness, say that Shadow could cut Ryuko in half, see her be pulled back together, and then not only conclude that he needs to cut all of her fibers but also how to cut them.
    But he could. However, shadow can make portals. He can open one on her, and close it on her heart or brain. It’s instantaneous, simultaneous and with it being likely a time portal, flings whatever gets caught to sometime that it doesn’t matter. Hell, he can cut her down piece by piece if he’s sadistic enough, tho that switch is only flipped when he loses the limiters.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Looking at a machine and understanding how it works is a very different skill from looking at an organism and understanding how t's biology works.

    You can't, in complete seriousness, say that Shadow could cut Ryuko in half, see her be pulled back together, and then not only conclude that he needs to cut all of her fibers but also how to cut them.
    Depends on how closely and clearly one can look.

    Living organisms are literally just a different type of machine. It's just that most of them are far more complex than any machinery we've been able to create so far.

    I have no idea how precise Shadow's analytical abilities are... But the concept of being able to analyze living beings just like you do machinery isn't invalid.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Ugh, I hate it when you have characters only vulnerable to a single setting specific thing. Makes death battles stupid because then they have to scramble around looking for something, ANYTHING they can pretend works as a similar effect or has an ability that bypasses it somehow. Which of course opens a huge can of worms as you have one setting saying, "Nope, not even then" and a second setting saying "It is a universal killer of everything" and DB has to pretend it works or else the battle cant happen.
    Ryuko is insanely tough, but it's not like she doesn't have any weaknesses. And theoretically, enough power would be able to beat Ryuko's durability without it being one of her weaknesses. I'd compare her to Perfect Cell. It pretty much takes a planet busting attack to even harm him, and anything less than complete disintegration is pretty much instantly regenerated. The blades/metal just bypasses the durability and regen in the first place

    But Shadow doesn't have what it takes. Even if he does have the power to harm Ryuko, I don't think he can fully destroy her before she regenerates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    In this case it's more that the only things shown to be durable enough to cut mature life-fibers are 1: Other mature life-fibers compressed and hardened into a metallic substances(the rending shears) or whatever the hell unique metal the sword bakuzan was made from.

    (All we know about Bakuzan is that it can cut life-fibers, cut metal, but unlike the scissor blades is not indestructible. And that it can be grafted to a human body without any serious issues—Satsuki had her toe-nails replaced with fake ones made of the same metal.)
    Eh, a toenail isn't really a problem. It's like a fake nail. It's not in the body, it's just attached to it.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I mean, litterally simultaneously. Even the smallest delay makes it worthless. And precision is likewise important--the blows have to line up perfectly.

    There's also the matter of whether Shadow can figure out her weakness. Most people would see a girl instantly pulling back together after being cut in half and assume that cutting just isn't gonna work.

    Shadow uses bare hands, impacts, energy powers, and sometimes guns. I don't think his arsenal includes anything that can meaningfully her Ryuko.
    I don't personally know what Ryuko's speed feats are, but Reddit is pegging her somewhere between sound and light. If Shadow scales to Sonic then he's fast enough to hit her simultaneously EVERYWHERE all at once before she even knows what's going on. When you're dealing with beings that measure things in attoseconds concepts like "simultenously" lose all meaning.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    I mean, if it really comes down to it, and if they let Shadow have enough juice, he can just punt her back to the big bang or some other equally hostile space or time that just continually damages her as fast as she can recover, or otherwise renders her completely nonfunctional. Even without her having a specific weakness, its not like he doesn't have some options to pursue.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I don't personally know what Ryuko's speed feats are, but Reddit is pegging her somewhere between sound and light. If Shadow scales to Sonic then he's fast enough to hit her simultaneously EVERYWHERE all at once before she even knows what's going on. When you're dealing with beings that measure things in attoseconds concepts like "simultenously" lose all meaning.
    With the sword he doesn't have? So that the angles line up 100%?

    And again, I seriously doubt he can figure out the one weakness of her regeneration when, logically, most people would dismiss cutting as a viable option the first time her body pulls it back together.
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  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    With the sword he doesn't have? So that the angles line up 100%?

    And again, I seriously doubt he can figure out the one weakness of her regeneration when, logically, most people would dismiss cutting as a viable option the first time her body pulls it back together.
    He's fast enough to take her apart piece by piece and spread those pieces to separate corners of the universe before she can even think about regenerating. He's bound to hit the right angles eventually. We're talking about a character that scales to someone Death Battle said gave Flash a close fight. This is a complete mismatch.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Didn't Shadow lose to Mewtwo before? Or am I misremembering.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    With the sword he doesn't have? So that the angles line up 100%?

    And again, I seriously doubt he can figure out the one weakness of her regeneration when, logically, most people would dismiss cutting as a viable option the first time her body pulls it back together.
    Shadow..... does have a sword. But again, his body cuts through metal like butter. Why does he need a sword when he can cut better?

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    This is a complete mismatch.
    Yes. It's a fight to the death with someone who can't die.

    That's the point I'm trying to make.

    Rip her to pieces. It won't kill her.

    Shadow can hit every part of her body at once. It doesn't matter unless he hits her heart or brain, from both sides, with perfectly symmetrical angles, at the exact same instant, with a cutting edge hard enough to overcome her natural durability.

    Shadow does not use a cutting edge. It is thus impossible to win.

    Even tossing Ryuko through time or into a black hole isn't guaranteed to work, because Life Fibers explicitly are not limited to the laws of physics, and Ryuko's pure will to succeed has on occasion bent reality around her.

    Shadow is stronger than her, faster than her, but he can't kill her without using her specific weakness. And I doubt he'd be able to figure it out in the middle of a fast-paced fight to the death against someone whose living armor can instantly adapt to counter the abilities of her enemies.

    Ryuko is both a Life Fiber organism and a human being, but at the same time, she's neither. With her powers fully realized, she is a physics warping Eldritch Abomination in human form.

    You can use her specific weakness or you can lose. That's the point I'm trying to make.

    Meanwhile, Shadow's weakness is stamina. Unless he's smart enough to figure out exactly how to kill her, he'll get worn out and give her an opening before he can inflict a meaningful injury.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
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    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Yes. It's a fight to the death with someone who can't die.

    That's the point I'm trying to make.

    Rip her to pieces. It won't kill her.

    Shadow can hit every part of her body at once. It doesn't matter unless he hits her heart or brain, from both sides, with perfectly symmetrical angles, at the exact same instant, with a cutting edge hard enough to overcome her natural durability.

    Shadow does not use a cutting edge. It is thus impossible to win.

    Even tossing Ryuko through time or into a black hole isn't guaranteed to work, because Life Fibers explicitly are not limited to the laws of physics, and Ryuko's pure will to succeed has on occasion bent reality around her.

    Shadow is stronger than her, faster than her, but he can't kill her without using her specific weakness. And I doubt he'd be able to figure it out in the middle of a fast-paced fight to the death against someone whose living armor can instantly adapt to counter the abilities of her enemies.

    Ryuko is both a Life Fiber organism and a human being, but at the same time, she's neither. With her powers fully realized, she is a physics warping Eldritch Abomination in human form.

    You can use her specific weakness or you can lose. That's the point I'm trying to make.

    Meanwhile, Shadow's weakness is stamina. Unless he's smart enough to figure out exactly how to kill her, he'll get worn out and give her an opening before he can inflict a meaningful injury.
    Eh, just like the hulk then. And you dodged the question: why does he need a sword when his body cuts better?

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Eh, just like the hulk then. And you dodged the question: why does he need a sword when his body cuts better?
    Let me answer your question with another question: Do you have a citation for Shadow being able to cut things with his bear hands or spines?

    Death battle themself does not count, I need an official source.

    Becuase from what I can tell, he doesn't cut, he tears and breaks.

    And tearing and breaking don't work. It has to be a cutting edge. A blade.

    It's like when you're playing Dungeons and Dragons and you're fighting a monster with DR/15 Slashing. Your barbarian's greatclub, even if you have a strength score of 18, can only do a maximum of 14 points of damage per round. No matter what, you need to pick up a slashing weapon to have any chance of hurting the monster.

    You need a specific kind of damage inflicted in a specific kind of way to inflict a wound on Ryuko that she won't instantly regenerate.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-03-09 at 07:07 PM.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
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    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

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