DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

[Rynjin]

@Ryujin.

Apropos of nothing, but despite the avatar and username combination, Rynjin was never actually meant to be a variant of Ryujin.

When I was...11-ish(?) I made up a number of OCs to roleplay with my little brother, which were mostly an excuse to shoot Nerf guns and beat each other up for fun.

Rynjin was an edgy dude in a trenchcoat, named such because I thought that combination of letters was cool, because they're all angular and ****...who was part dragon...and had the power to control storms and shoot lightning.

I was astounded by the coincidence later in life, when I'd been using the username for years at that point and tried to search up some of my old Steampowered User Forums posts.

[Rater202]

Okay, I'm going to try and give some examples of what I mean when I say "literal time stop" vs "effective time stop" since it's hard to understand and I was just accused of making up some arbitrary rule people think I'm making things up and being arbitrary.

In JoJo's Bizzare Adventure, when Dio uses the world, he can still move around... But if his throwing knives get too far from him they stop in mid-air until time resumes moving. On at least one occasion that I recall, the knives seem to make contact with the intended target but don't actually pierce the target's body till time resumes... Though admittedly that may have been a perspective thing.

This is a literal time stop: Dio is actually freezing time and, conversely, his ability to influence matter that is not himself is limited.

Conversely, Joe, the titular Cyborg 009 has "Acceleration Mode" which causes his movements and reflexes to become faster while also enhancing his sensory abilities and ability to process information to compensate. At its highest setting, time seems to stand still from his perspective, even if he spends hours in that state. However, time is not literally frozen, he's just going really, really, really fast, so he can still interact with matter(albeit, in this particular example since it's based on superhuman speed, friction is an issue. That woulnd't apply to someone using time dilation)

This is an effective time stop. Time is still moving, it's just that from the user's perspective it is doing so imperceptibly slow.

Most time stops in fiction tend to be one or the other.

Is what I mean clear now?

So... What is Shadow's time stop like? When he stops time, do objects he interacts with react as normal? Or do they react as if they are literally frozen in place? I legit don't know, I've never played a Sonic game with a playable Shadow. Is he literally freezing time, or is he simply dilating it to the point that, from his perspective, the passage of time becomes imperceptible?

[Rynjin]

We know what you mean, but fictional timestops are NEVER consistent about that.

Hell, you mentioned Dio as an example.

Think for a moment about the inconsistency in that.

If that is your example of a "literal timestop" how did he move the road roller?

[Rater202]

We know what you mean, but fictional timestops are NEVER consistent about that.

Hell, you mentioned Dio as an example.

Think for a moment about the inconsistency in that.

If that is your example of a "literal timestop" how did he move the road roller?

Presumably, for the same reason that his knives kept flying for a little bit instead of stopping the exact second they left his hands.

Neither of my sources are perfect examples, becuase of the aforementioned consistency issues, but... Generally speaking.

I'd note that when Dio used the world to retaliate when Polneref(spelling?) stabbed him in the head, while he was able to move him, he only moved a little bit he did not seem to take damage from the blow until time resumed, at which pint he continued to moved away at the expected trajectory. which seems to be consistent with the general idea that his ability to manipulate things that are not himself or on his person is limited.

[Traab]

Ah, they're finally doing Madara versus Aizen? They somehow didn't do this years ago? Okay.

Madara should have this in the bag.

Remember when Aizen cast his most poweful destructive spell, the Black Coffin, against Ichigo, in their ultimate fight? What did he brag about? He bragged about his Kido being strong enough to warp gravity.

You know what also gives explicit ability to control gravity? The Rinnegan does. We have direct apples-to-apples comparison in raw power here, and Madara wins by virtue of casually throwing meteors around. Rinnegan also gives abilities to see into the spirit world and steal souls, so Madara ought to have zero problems sensing and interacting with Aizen.

There is exactly one feat, from the very end of Bleach, which you could raise in Aizen's favor: Aizen was capable of using his Absolute Hypnosis on Yhwach. By Aizen's own statements, this should only have been possible, if his own spiritual power is within spitting distance of Yhwach. But, and this is a really important but: the only source we have for things working this way is Aizen himself, and Aizen has been shown to be wrong about things, so. Given literally everything else about that fight, Aizen's not in the same weight class as Yhwach.

Aizen does explicitly grow stronger during his captivity between arcs, but by how much, is pure guesswork. He does not, for example, fight Ichigo again, so we can't even tell in any measured way if he's weaker or stronger than Ichigo by end of the series. "Now hold on", you say, "didn't Ichigo kill Yhwach?" No. Ichigo along with Aizen, Ishida and Renji killed Yhwach, with prior support from Tsukishima and Orihime. The argument for Ichigo being as strong as or stronger than Yhwach is the same as for Aizen being within spitting distance of Yhwach: based on dubious in-character statements that Ichigo must've been that strong to make the killing blow, he's that strong.

Remember that both naruto and bleach have proven themselves to be capable of sealing away souls. So both sides have access to a finishing move that would take down the other at peak 5 year old "Nuh uh! Im immune to that!" type shenanigans. We see aizen get sealed, and we see entire armies of super powerful naruto zombies get sealed so we also know that it will work against them if they can be weakened enough to apply it to them. Im not sure if being able to pull in meteors is stronger than creates a box full of black hole energy. Of course, madera survived being kicked by a dude whose foot was warping space with the sheer power behind it so there is that to consider as well. :p I think madera does have an edge in raw power overall though. But again a lot of that is due to a lack of visible feats in bleach as the majority are being stronger than fellow shinigami when before they werent.

[Lemmy]

Remember, guys...

Only "literal time stop" works. You know... The one that would be useless because you wouldn't be able to exert force on anything and therefore you'd efectively be buried in concrete, since you can't exert force on the air around you. And you can't see because light isn't reaching your eyes.

Because, you know... Why assume Time Stop works any similarly to the way it's presented in ever other media ever?

[Rynjin]

Speaking of sealing, fun fact: Madara is a master of sealing jutsu.

I don't think Aizen can claim the same.

[Forum Explorer]

Speaking of sealing, fun fact: Madara is a master of sealing jutsu.

I don't think Aizen can claim the same.

No, he is. Aizen claims to have mastered every Soul Reaper ability, and that's a big reason for his rebellion.

[Traab]

No, he is. Aizen claims to have mastered every Soul Reaper ability, and that's a big reason for his rebellion.

Yep, he is well aware of and skilled in the use of kido, including sealing kido. Its why he is able to unleash those high end attacks without chanting for 12 seconds first.

[Xihirli]

]
So... What is Shadow's time stop like? When he stops time, do objects he interacts with react as normal? Or do they react as if they are literally frozen in place? I legit don't know, I've never played a Sonic game with a playable Shadow. Is he literally freezing time, or is he simply dilating it to the point that, from his perspective, the passage of time becomes imperceptible?

In Sonic Adventure 2, there is a racing game in which Shadow can use Chaos Control to freeze the other player. When he does this, he can use an attack against the player. It does nothing immediately, but they react as if they have taken one hit after the Chaos Control time runs out, regardless of how many times you hit them. While Chaos Control is going on, all enemies (player 2 included) hold still, including in midair.
In cutscenes (for Gameplay and Story Segregation), Chaos Control is used either to go fast or to teleport. The first time Shadow uses Chaos Control Sonic is stuck in slow motion while Shadow runs past him. But we also see Chaos Control used to teleport when Sonic is trapped in a capsule hurtling through space and uses it to get out. The rules are never concrete, but it would appear that the more Chaos Emeralds you can harness the energy of, the more you can teleport. With one emerald, Shadow is only shown teleporting himself. With about four, he teleports himself and Rouge (though there's no reason to think he couldn't take more, he was only going back for Rouge and the emeralds). After using all 7 Chaos Emeralds to go Super, Sonic and Shadow together teleport a really big space station, though the effort of doing so drains Shadow and he falls to the earth to his presumed death.

In Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), we see Chaos Control's uses expanded. When 2 Chaos Control users work together with 2 separate emeralds, they can create portals through which they can travel through time.
We also see Chaos Control used in combat for the first time in a cutscene. When fighting Silver, Shadow uses Chaos Control to slow down time and kick Silver in the back of the head. Silver's movements are slowed to a crawl right up until the moment of impact, when he falls to the ground. However, it's clear that Shadow wasn't trying to kill Silver, so whether or not he could have attacked multiple times while Silver was slowed isn't shown, or if he could have slowed Silver down more to increase the impact of his kick.

As always, Sonic Heroes is all we can turn to. When Shadow uses Chaos Control in Team Dark's power-up (with only ONE chaos emerald), he and his team move normally while everything else freezes. Omega blasts cannons all over the place while Rouge... helps him aim, I think, and after time is unfrozen all the enemies around you are dead.

In other words, Chaos Control has no rules.

[Rater202]

No, he is. Aizen claims to have mastered every Soul Reaper ability, and that's a big reason for his rebellion.

Yeah. Aizen's rebellion was half being incredibly lonely due to having no peers and half being incredibly pissed off and horrified by the nature of the Soul King and how he came about.

In the canonical light novel, Can't Fear Your Own World every one who finds out how the Soul King was created decides that Aizen had a point, by the way.

Strictly speaking, he's not wrong in his motivations. He was just a **** in how he went about it. Same with YhWach, same with Ginjo. All three of the big bads of Bleach have legitimate grievances against Soul Society, they're just being jackasses about it.

Bleach isn't a conflict between good and evil. Bleach is a conflict between "protect the status quo even though it's flawed" or "try to build something better even though a lot of innocent people will die as a consequence."

Back on topic: I distinctly recall Aizen unsealing himself when they decided to partially unseal him so that he could help fight Yhwach, in Can't Fear Yur Own World its mentioned that Ichigo has been temporarily banned from Soul Society becuase they don't trust Aizen to stay put and its become common knowledge that Aizen's Artificial Hollow White inserted itself into and merged with Ichigo's zanpakuto spirit and there'd a legitimate concern that Aizen may have the means to control Ichigo through whatever method he used to control White,and if I understand what I've been able to find about the one-shot from august correctly, Aizen just fricking disappeared between the end of the blood war arc and the time skip.

That last one might be me misunderstanding something though.

So if DB rules that "sealing is sealing" then Madara's mastery of sealing doesn't nessesarily give him an advantage

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Had a thought last night about the Alucard/Dio fight.

In that fight, the only win condition I see for Alucard is leveraging the fact that sunlight kills Dio but not him, using level 0 to track down Dio and destroy his cover during the day, and level 1 and his millions of lives to survive during the night.

But while Alucard doesn't seem at all bothered by daylight, Seras is, so his immunity is a function of his power, not universal to vampires in the Hellsing setting. Can his familiars even operate in daylight?

[Rater202]

Had a thought last night about the Alucard/Dio fight.

In that fight, the only win condition I see for Alucard is leveraging the fact that sunlight kills Dio but not him, using level 0 to track down Dio and destroy his cover during the day, and level 1 and his millions of lives to survive during the night.

But while Alucard doesn't seem at all bothered by daylight, Seras is, so his immunity is a function of his power, not universal to vampires in the Hellsing setting. Can his familiars even operate in daylight?

If i remember correctly, Seras being vulnerable to sunlight was a factor of he being a fledgling and not a "True Undead" and it went away after she ate Pip.

...Actually, we can infer that it is: Luke and Jan Valentine and their army of ghouls are shown having no problems operating outside during daylight hours. It's a cloudy day(at least in Hellsing ultimate), but later on Seras is shown needing to bundle up in a hoody to go out in the morning under IIRC similar weather conditions. The Valentine brothers were two of Millenium's artificial vampires, which is to say Millenium found the body of Mina Harker and extracted a viable form of Alucard's strain of vampirism from her biomass, which was then injected into people—each of Millenium's vampires is essentially a weaker version of Alucard, minus whatever modifications Hellsing did to him.

Which is why I say that DIO trying to feed on Alucard would be a bad idea. Mina was only partly turned before she was cured. IF her flesh still carries an infectious form of Dracula's vampirism long after she was dead, taking mass straight from Alucard should... Probably instantly start the process of turning DIO into one of Alucard's fledglings.

Which would mean that he and Alucard would have a mental connection that Alucard could exploit. He's very gentle with Seras, only entering her mind when she calls out for his help, but in the orignal novel Dracula, which is a canon part of Alucard's backstory mind you, the connection with Mina was used to spy on the protagonists(and by the protagonists to track Dracula, mind you, so no a pure disadvantage.) It would also potentially make Dio vulnerable to the anti-vampire weapons that Alucard carries—the lack of vulnerability to silver and blessed weapons possessed by JoJo vampire was resented as a big part of why Dio won in the video.

[Traab]

Well madera blurb is up. Its just the blurb so we cant read too deep into it, but so far it seems they will focus on wood and fire style and the abilities of the sharingan. Maybe they will bring in the psychotic powers of the rinnegan in the full breakdown. Not that sharingan isnt broken enough as it is. What amounts to battle precognition, the ability to see through illusions, to create them with eye contact, and to copy anything they see and are capable of doing, then we have the special abilities like the black fire, 3 days in 3 seconds mind shattering illusion, and the kaiju battle form. Oh, and of course the confirmed ftl speed of fighting and movement.

[Rater202]

Well madera blurb is up. Its just the blurb so we cant read too deep into it, but so far it seems they will focus on wood and fire style and the abilities of the sharingan. Maybe they will bring in the psychotic powers of the rinnegan in the full breakdown. Not that sharingan isnt broken enough as it is. What amounts to battle precognition, the ability to see through illusions, to create them with eye contact, and to copy anything they see and are capable of doing, then we have the special abilities like the black fire, 3 days in 3 seconds mind shattering illusion, and the kaiju battle form. Oh, and of course the confirmed ftl speed of fighting and movement.

Madara doesn't have access to Amatarasu or Tsukiyom, only Susanoo.

When you have Mangekyo, you get one unique power per eye and then Susnaoo. Two people can have the same power—Itachi and Sasuke both have Amaterasu, albeit in opposite eyes—but that's it. You get your specific eye powers, not the whole list of techniques. And not even transplanting someone else's eyes into your head can give you more—Kakashi gets one of Obito's techniques from having Obito's eye, but note that per a flashback that's becuase Obtio was still alive and Obito's Mangkeyo activated when Obito witnessed Kakashi killing Rin without context.

When Itiahi's eyes are put in Sasuke's head, Sasuke retains his own powers. They get stronger, but he doesn't gain any of Itachi's.

And we don't know what Madara's unique eye powers are. He never uses them, unless powers that we've been attributing to his Rinnegan are actually Mangekyo powers.

(Infinte Tsukiyomi, despite its name, seems to be unrelated to the Tsukiyomi technique that Itachi can use. It appears to be a function of using the Rinne Sharingan, the third eye that Madara and Kaguya possess, in conjunction with the full moon to trap people in a dream so they can be gobbled up by the Shinju)

[Traab]

I could have sworn madera used tsukiyomi at one point, ah well. Its been way too long since I last watched it.

[Dragonus45]

If i remember correctly, Seras being vulnerable to sunlight was a factor of he being a fledgling and not a "True Undead" and it went away after she ate Pip.

...Actually, we can infer that it is: Luke and Jan Valentine and their army of ghouls are shown having no problems operating outside during daylight hours. It's a cloudy day(at least in Hellsing ultimate), but later on Seras is shown needing to bundle up in a hoody to go out in the morning under IIRC similar weather conditions. The Valentine brothers were two of Millenium's artificial vampires, which is to say Millenium found the body of Mina Harker and extracted a viable form of Alucard's strain of vampirism from her biomass, which was then injected into people—each of Millenium's vampires is essentially a weaker version of Alucard, minus whatever modifications Hellsing did to him.

Which is why I say that DIO trying to feed on Alucard would be a bad idea. Mina was only partly turned before she was cured. IF her flesh still carries an infectious form of Dracula's vampirism long after she was dead, taking mass straight from Alucard should... Probably instantly start the process of turning DIO into one of Alucard's fledglings.

Which would mean that he and Alucard would have a mental connection that Alucard could exploit. He's very gentle with Seras, only entering her mind when she calls out for his help, but in the orignal novel Dracula, which is a canon part of Alucard's backstory mind you, the connection with Mina was used to spy on the protagonists(and by the protagonists to track Dracula, mind you, so no a pure disadvantage.) It would also potentially make Dio vulnerable to the anti-vampire weapons that Alucard carries—the lack of vulnerability to silver and blessed weapons possessed by JoJo vampire was resented as a big part of why Dio won in the video.

Dio's flesh warping vampire powers would just make that a non problem.

[Rater202]

Dio's flesh warping vampire powers would just make that a non problem.

Could you please explain, citing the orignal source material, why Dio's ability to manipulate flesh would make him immune to what is essentially a communicable curse? Becuase I fail to see how freezing his own blood or stitching together corpses to make man-cats would protect him from a supernatural infection.

[Dragonus45]

Could you please explain, citing the orignal source material, why Dio's ability to manipulate flesh would make him immune to what is essentially a communicable curse? Becuase I fail to see how freezing his own blood or stitching together corpses to make man-cats would protect him from a supernatural infection.

Can you please explain, citing the original source material, why Alucard's vampirism would be able to infect or interfere with an entire separate strain of vampire from another dimension?

[Rater202]

Can you please explain, citing the original source material, why Alucard's vampirism would be able to infect or interfere with an entire separate strain of vampire from another dimension?

...I just did. And then you responded to it by saying that one of Dio's powers would make him immune without explaining why. And then I asked you to explain, and here we are.

But, since you asked: There is no indication that being a vampire makes Dio immune to diseases or curses. On the contrary, we know for fact that he is susceptible to such things, because of how the Stand Arrow works: The material the arrow is made of generates a supernatural virus of extraterrestrial origin. If the person has the potential to awaken a Stand, the virus does that and hen goes into remission. Otherwise, it kills them.(Jojo chapter 552)

The arrow is otherwise just an arrow. It exists solely to get the virus into someone's body.

Since Dio got The World from the arrow after becoming a vampire, we know that he is susceptible to supernatural diseases. So, if Dio were to be exposed to a vector for a supernatural disease, such as Alucard's blood for Alucard's strain of vampirism, he would be infected with all that entails.

The fact that DIO is already a vampire is irrelevant becuase, as you acknowledge, its a completly different kind of vampire from a completely different world: As DeathBattle themselves admitted in the video, Dio isn't undead or cursed in the traditional sense, the Stone Mask merely used what is basically acupuncture on his brain to draw out the latent potential within him. Not sure why this makes the sun deadly to him, but... Eh.

[Dragonus45]

...I just did. And then you responded to it by saying that one of Dio's powers would make him immune without explaining why. And then I asked you to explain, and here we are.

No you just said so after naming off a bunch of unrelated facts about how Millennium made vampires. Big difference.

[Forum Explorer]

If i remember correctly, Seras being vulnerable to sunlight was a factor of he being a fledgling and not a "True Undead" and it went away after she ate Pip.

...Actually, we can infer that it is: Luke and Jan Valentine and their army of ghouls are shown having no problems operating outside during daylight hours. It's a cloudy day(at least in Hellsing ultimate), but later on Seras is shown needing to bundle up in a hoody to go out in the morning under IIRC similar weather conditions. The Valentine brothers were two of Millenium's artificial vampires, which is to say Millenium found the body of Mina Harker and extracted a viable form of Alucard's strain of vampirism from her biomass, which was then injected into people—each of Millenium's vampires is essentially a weaker version of Alucard, minus whatever modifications Hellsing did to him.

Which is why I say that DIO trying to feed on Alucard would be a bad idea. Mina was only partly turned before she was cured. IF her flesh still carries an infectious form of Dracula's vampirism long after she was dead, taking mass straight from Alucard should... Probably instantly start the process of turning DIO into one of Alucard's fledglings.

Which would mean that he and Alucard would have a mental connection that Alucard could exploit. He's very gentle with Seras, only entering her mind when she calls out for his help, but in the orignal novel Dracula, which is a canon part of Alucard's backstory mind you, the connection with Mina was used to spy on the protagonists(and by the protagonists to track Dracula, mind you, so no a pure disadvantage.) It would also potentially make Dio vulnerable to the anti-vampire weapons that Alucard carries—the lack of vulnerability to silver and blessed weapons possessed by JoJo vampire was resented as a big part of why Dio won in the video.

From what I recall, there are very specific conditions for someone to actually turn into a vampire from Alucard. First off, they have to be a virgin of the opposite sex. Secondly, they have to be drained of blood. There's no reason to suspect that getting a bit of Ally Juice in your mouth would turn you into a vampire, or do anything at all really.

Since Alucard has no ability (or never showed the ability) to mentally influence any of the Millennium Vampires, I can't see why even if Dio did end up somehow becoming a 'fake' vampire like they did that he'd be beholden to Alucard.

[Rater202]

No you just said so after naming off a bunch of unrelated facts about how Millennium made vampires. Big difference.

No. That is not an unrelated fact.

That's a very important fact.

If Mina Harker's flesh and blood can turn people into vampires even though she wasn't fully turned into a vampire and was cured of it before it became permanent, then it is self-evident that the same effects would occur with the flesh and blood of an actual vampire.

Alucard's flesh and blood is a vector for a supernatural disease. Dio is canonically susceptible to supernatural diseases.

Ergo, Dio putting Alucard's flesh and blood into his own system would expose

From what I recall, there are very specific conditions for someone to actually turn into a vampire from Alucard. First off, they have to be a virgin of the opposite sex. Secondly, they have to be drained of blood. There's no reason to suspect that getting a bit of Ally Juice in your mouth would turn you into a vampire, or do anything at all really.

Since Alucard has no ability (or never showed the ability) to mentally influence any of the Millennium Vampires, I can't see why even if Dio did end up somehow becoming a 'fake' vampire-like they did that he'd be beholden to Alucard.

That's presented as a rule for all vampires, not just Alucard.

And if you're not a virgin of the opposite sex, you turn into a ghoul.

But then later on it's established that Millenium discovered that vampire biomass could also turn people, with the implication being that nobody had tried it(or anyone who tried it never shared it) before. Millennium is able to turn both men and women using Mina's flesh, without any indication that any of them are required to be virgins.

Furthermore... I mean, the Millenium Vampires weren't Alucard's fledglings. They were Mina's, and Mina was dead.

[Dragonus45]

No. That is not an unrelated fact.

That's a very important fact.

If Mina Harker's flesh and blood can turn people into vampires even though she wasn't fully turned into a vampire and was cured of it before it became permanent, then it is self-evident that the same effects would occur with the flesh and blood of an actual vampire.

It could create pseudo vampire style creatures after extensive mad science was applied to it and even worked in ways that Alucard's literally couldn't considering it bypassed the opposite sex virgin requirement. Also just because Dio was susceptible to a mystical virus from outer space delivered by an ancient arrow doesn't mean he would be equally susceptible to a vampire virus delivered by blood from another universe.

[Rynjin]

I think it's equally clear that Dio would be susceptible to such a supernatural disease and equally unclear what the effects would even BE if he was exposed. There's just too many variables to judge, because we don't really know what Millenium did to the raw biomass to create the vampiric formula.

[Traab]

It could create pseudo vampire style creatures after extensive mad science was applied to it and even worked in ways that Alucard's literally couldn't considering it bypassed the opposite sex virgin requirement. Also just because Dio was susceptible to a mystical virus from outer space delivered by an ancient arrow doesn't mean he would be equally susceptible to a vampire virus delivered by blood from another universe.

While it obviously cant be confirmed being from two different universes and all, the fact that dio is shown to be effected by such a thing at least proves that its POSSIBLE it could work as he hasnt shown any particular immunity to such infections.

[Forum Explorer]

And if you're not a virgin of the opposite sex, you turn into a ghoul.

But then later on it's established that Millenium discovered that vampire biomass could also turn people, with the implication being that nobody had tried it(or anyone who tried it never shared it) before. Millennium is able to turn both men and women using Mina's flesh, without any indication that any of them are required to be virgins.

Furthermore... I mean, the Millenium Vampires weren't Alucard's fledglings. They were Mina's, and Mina was dead.

Sure. Except turning into a Ghoul still requires you to die first. Simply getting some Ally Juice in you shouldn't do anything without the whatever the Doctor did to Mina's flesh to allow Millennium Vampires to be made. Because we know he did something.


But Mina was Dracula's Fledgling so there is a direct lineage between them.

[HolyDraconus]

Couple of things. The Arrow was an alien space virus: it wasn't supernatural outside of that; DIO is undead, so the question of if undead can be affected by others pop up; when DIO was pierced actually mattered as well as where: he was hit in his body, which at that time WASN'T his body, it was still Jonathan's. It didn't fully become his own til the end of his arc when he got the amp. Its also the reason why the Joestar line gained Stands: DIO wasn't the one hit by the Arrow.

[Traab]

Aizen blurb up. They mention his raw power being enough to disintegrate normal people who are too close to him just by being there. They also mention his kido skills including warping space/time. They mention its a long incantation but iirc he didnt use incantations when he was in hollow butterfly mode. Basically just called it out and there it was. I may be wrong however its been awhile since I watched that fight. Now here is the interesting thing that should be good for a rage fest. Does his complete hypnosis effect madera? Does it maybe effect him in an incomplete way? Like, I could easily accept the visual illusions failing, but the other senses are also effected so maybe those still can be used. You can still do a lot with that. Especially since I dont think its ever explained how it works beyond "See blade, fall under complete hypnosis forever until very specific things happen" But maybe its the fact that you have to see the blade that gets you that makes madera immune because a visual based illusion like that wont work well.

[HolyDraconus]

Aizen blurb up. They mention his raw power being enough to disintegrate normal people who are too close to him just by being there. They also mention his kido skills including warping space/time. They mention its a long incantation but iirc he didnt use incantations when he was in hollow butterfly mode. Basically just called it out and there it was. I may be wrong however its been awhile since I watched that fight. Now here is the interesting thing that should be good for a rage fest. Does his complete hypnosis effect madera? Does it maybe effect him in an incomplete way? Like, I could easily accept the visual illusions failing, but the other senses are also effected so maybe those still can be used. You can still do a lot with that. Especially since I dont think its ever explained how it works beyond "See blade, fall under complete hypnosis forever until very specific things happen" But maybe its the fact that you have to see the blade that gets you that makes madera immune because a visual based illusion like that wont work well.

I was always under the impression that the "see blade" requirement was a trap.

Thinking about it, I don't see how Madara can put aizen in a genjutsu. Aizen has no Chakra to manipulate. Unless they redefine Chakra specifically so it can affect aizen, that's a bit of a non starter.. hmm.