DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

[Traab]

I was always under the impression that the "see blade" requirement was a trap.

Thinking about it, I don't see how Madara can put aizen in a genjutsu. Aizen has no Chakra to manipulate. Unless they redefine Chakra specifically so it can affect aizen, that's a bit of a non starter.. hmm.

I think they have basically said something like chakra is physical and spiritual energy, therefore its connected to bleach spirit energy or some such thing. But you do have a point. I was going to also mention that in naruto everything has chakra, but thats everything ALIVE has chakra. No telling if that applies to a spiritual body. Though we did have the ghosts of the rpevious kages and the sage of six paths doing some crazy stuff. ARRRRGH! I dunno. Might be easier to just say that yes it works both ways, so a binding kido works just as well on madera as it would on a similar powered shinigami, illusions work on both of them because its close enough to chakra to count, etc. It was easy with naruto/ichigo because then the question was "Can they detect/hit each other? Yes. Then all that matters is who is fastest strongest and toughest." Neither really had special abilities like illusions or whatever. It was all energy beams and weapon swinging.

[Vahnavoi]

Chakra and spiritual power overlap conceptually so much that for purposes of silly exercises like this, you're better off accepting that they're the same thing.

[Rater202]

I was always under the impression that the "see blade" requirement was a trap.

It is not: If You see Aizen release his Shikai he can control your perceptions.

Unless you grab the blade of his sword, then you become immune to his illusions though I don't remember if that's just for s long as you're holding the blade or if it's "you're just immune to absolute hypnosis now."

It's also noted that he can't disguise his spiritual pressure from your senses while his sword is in your body.

On Aizen: He's able to cast Black Coffin without an incantation(he does so at the end of the Rescue Rukia arc) but he needs to use the Icnatation for ti's full effects(in deicide)

There's a difference between "a large black box hat crushes whoever is in it with higher gravity" and "a large black box that crushes you with gravity comparable to a black hole and also stabs you with a dozen giant halberds."

[Rynjin]

Halberds seem kinda redundant.

"'Ey Tone, we're gonna feed you feet first into a woodchipper. THEN we're gonna stick little cocktail swords in yers."

[Traab]

Halberds seem kinda redundant.

"'Ey Tone, we're gonna feed you feet first into a woodchipper. THEN we're gonna stick little cocktail swords in yers."

Well see the thing is, the gravity from the black hole pulls in the halberds EXTRA fast and hard, so they do extra damage. Clearly it makes good sense. /nod Honestly, going by what we have seen it do to shinigami, the high gravity is just to hold them still for the multi stabbing as they come out with stab wounds, not crushed into a single dimension in shape.

[Anteros]

It is not: If You see Aizen release his Shikai he can control your perceptions.

He does it to Ywach, who presumably has never sat around and watched his Shikai. He seems to have moved past that limitation by series end.

[Rater202]

He does it to Ywach, who presumably has never sat around and watched his Shikai. He seems to have moved past that limitation by series end.

I was only contesting the idea that the "see the sword rule" was a "trap," not arguing on his end game power level. After he absorbed his physical sword and grew beyond the need for Shikai or Bankai it's all up in the air.

Although, I was also under the impression that Aizen's Zanpakuto had other illusion powers beyond his absolute hypnosis. In Turn Back the Pendulum we see him hiding behind an illusion and there's also the comment about how his power is to manipulate water droplets in their air in order to refract light which... In Bleach when people say things like that, it's usually not a lie, it's the truth presented in a misleading way.

(For example, See the comment about Tsukishima's Book of the End: We're told that its power is that it can cut anything, which is true... What we're not told is that that includes metaphysical concepts such as "the past" and that he can then insert himself into such things he cuts in order to rewrite the past.)

Not to mention that we never find out what power his Bankai has but if the pattern holds it's either "the same but more," "the same but more and also another thing," or "completely different but with significant thematic overlap"

We know that Aizen futzed with Yhwachch's perception of time. We don't know for sure that it was Absolute Hypnosis.

[Lemmy]

MWe know that you can use chakra to manipulate a shinigami because that's exactly what the 3rd Hokage does when he fights Orochimaru.

[Rater202]

MWe know that you can use chakra to manipulate a shinigami because that's exactly what the 3rd Hokage does when he fights Orochimaru.

The term Shinigami means something very different in NAruto than it does in Bleach though. That's looking at a granny smith and looking at a pineapple and deciding "their both apples so they must behave exactly the same way."

The Shinigami from Naruto would probably be considered some kind of weird variant hollow by the Shinigami from Bleach.

[Anteros]

I was only contesting the idea that the "see the sword rule" was a "trap," not arguing on his end game power level. After he absorbed his physical sword and grew beyond the need for Shikai or Bankai it's all up in the air.

Although, I was also under the impression that Aizen's Zanpakuto had other illusion powers beyond his absolute hypnosis. In Turn Back the Pendulum we see him hiding behind an illusion and there's also the comment about how his power is to manipulate water droplets in their air in order to refract light which... In Bleach when people say things like that, it's usually not a lie, it's the truth presented in a misleading way.

(For example, See the comment about Tsukishima's Book of the End: We're told that its power is that it can cut anything, which is true... What we're not told is that that includes metaphysical concepts such as "the past" and that he can then insert himself into such things he cuts in order to rewrite the past.)

Not to mention that we never find out what power his Bankai has but if the pattern holds it's either "the same but more," "the same but more and also another thing," or "completely different but with significant thematic overlap"

We know that Aizen futzed with Yhwachch's perception of time. We don't know for sure that it was Absolute Hypnosis.

We also know he made Ywach hallucinate that he was attacking Ichigo at the end of the series so Ichigo could get behind him. It's just like all the other times he used hypnosis.

[HolyDraconus]

It is not: If You see Aizen release his Shikai he can control your perceptions.

He does it to Ywach, who presumably has never sat around and watched his Shikai. He seems to have moved past that limitation by series end.

I was only contesting the idea that the "see the sword rule" was a "trap," not arguing on his end game power level. After he absorbed his physical sword and grew beyond the need for Shikai or Bankai it's all up in the air.

I don't think you understood my usage of "trap" in this instance if you are attempting to contest End Book Aizen.

[Anteros]

I don't think you understood my usage of "trap" in this instance if you are attempting to contest End Book Aizen.

I was just responding to Rater.

You're right though that I'm not exactly sure what you meant.

[Vahnavoi]

The important part is that by end of Bleach, it's unlikely Aizen needs you to see his sword released to use Absolute Hypnosis, because he uses hypnotic powers on Yhwach with no indication of any releases. It's not even clear if Aizen was correct of his sword crumbling because he had evolved past it, or whether it was a delusional fit in the aftermath of losing to Ichigo. Either way, Aizen technically does not have a Zanpakuto to which the concept of releases applies by the end.

[Lemmy]

The term Shinigami means something very different in NAruto than it does in Bleach though. That's looking at a granny smith and looking at a pineapple and deciding "their both apples so they must behave exactly the same way."

The Shinigami from Naruto would probably be considered some kind of weird variant hollow by the Shinigami from Bleach.

There will never be a perfect 1:1 equivalent.

It's a spiritual being called "shinigami" capable of damaging souls. It's close enough that we can infer that chakra can indeed manipulate Bleach's shinigami. Specially when added to the fact that we see ninjutsu used for necromancy.

[Iamyourking]

Since the match is up for First Members, I looked up what the finale is going to be (Though not the results of this fight) and I'm going to have to apologize. The finale will not be Galactus vs. Unicron. Or Cole McGrath vs. Alex Mercer. Or even Kratos vs. Dante. It will be:

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Saitama vs. Popeye.

I can honestly say I never would have expected that.

[Seppl]

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Saitama vs. Popeye.

I can honestly say I never would have expected that.

That really is unexpected, but interesting. I see one major problem though: Has either of them ever met their match or been defeated? There does not seem to be a known upper limit to their abilities. Meaning that the only way to resolve this would be a meta-result as in Chuck Norris vs. Segata Sanshiro.

[Lemmy]

By DB's logic of USE THE GREATEST FEATS, NO MATTER HOW INCONSISTENT WITH NORMAL CARACTERIZATION, Popeye should take this one, since in the old comics he's done stuff like pull the moon and even break "reality" (i.e.: break the 4th wall and hit the writer).

Admitedly, we don't know Saitama's limits, since the only physical feats he hasn't achieved ars the ones he didn't try.

But, well... Is there really any question that the character with decades of stories using cartoon logic will win over the one with the much shorter and far less cartoony history??

This is basically Scrooge McDuck vs Shovel Knight again.

[Anteros]

By DB's logic of USE THE GREATEST FEATS, NO MATTER HOW INCONSISTENT WITH NORMAL CARACTERIZATION, Popeye should take this one, since in the old comics he's done stuff like pull the moon and even break "reality" (i.e.: break the 4th wall and hit the writer).

Admitedly, we don't know Saitama's limits, since the only physical feats he hasn't achieved ars the ones he didn't try.

But, well... Is there really any question that the character with decades of stories using cartoon logic will win over the one with the much shorter and far less cartoony history??

This is basically Scrooge McDuck vs Shovel Knight again.

You're right, but they may pull the "Saitama's story is that he always wins" nonsense they did in the Superman vs Goku rematch. With DB there's no telling what they'll rule, even when the outcome should be obvious.

Incidentally, Popeye has beaten Superman by the way.

[Lemmy]

You're right, but they may pull the "Saitama's story is that he always wins" nonsense they did in the Superman vs Goku rematch. With DB there's no telling what they'll rule, even when the outcome should be obvious.

Incidentally, Popeye has beaten Superman by the way.

I wonder if they will ever dare to pull the "buh mah narrative!!" BS again, since that was pretty widely criticized and was such an absurdly shameless case of "we want our favorite character to win, logic and 'research' be damned!".

[Jurai]

You're right, but they may pull the "Saitama's story is that he always wins" nonsense they did in the Superman vs Goku rematch. With DB there's no telling what they'll rule, even when the outcome should be obvious.

Incidentally, Popeye has beaten Superman by the way.

Here's the thing, though: for Supes vs. Goku, that is ABSOLUTELY correct. Goku hasn't sneezed life into being. He hasn't flown even CLOSE to fast enough to time travel. He's not gone toe-to-toe with Darkseid or Mongul or Shao Khan tier enemies, and no, Jiren isn't on their tier, Jiren is just Goku without attachments or bonds.

[Rater202]

Here's the thing, though: for Supes vs. Goku, that is ABSOLUTELY correct. Goku hasn't sneezed life into being. He hasn't flown even CLOSE to fast enough to time travel. He's not gone toe-to-toe with Darkseid or Mongul or Shao Khan tier enemies, and no, Jiren isn't on their tier, Jiren is just Goku without attachments or bonds.

Goku absolutely is on that level.

Goku can move so fast that that he's still moving while time is frozen.

And Hit's time Skip power is an example of literal Time Stop: We know this because 1: When he strikes an opponent multiple times, the strikes all take effect simultaneously once Time Skip ends and 2: When Bulma Asks Jaco confirms that Hit is manipulating the fabric of time.

So... Goku should be physically incapable of moving wile hit is using it, and yet... He's still moving.

Speed is, power-weighted forms excepted, a function of raw power in this series. And Goku still has 3 power-ups to go after that point: Mastering the Kaioken in combination with Super Saiyan Blue so that he can safely go up to x20(twice the multiplier of his moving while time is literally frozen,) then Ultra INstinct Sign, and the finally perfect Ultra Instinct.

In the Super Manga, Goku goes on to be able to achieve both ultra instinct forms at will, and also trade the actual Ultra Instinct Ability for more raw power.

Furthermore, while it is not stated outright to be cuased by his Ultra Instinct forms, the observers at the Tounrmenent of Power note on multiple occasions that Goku's speed, power, and accuracy steadily go up while he's in that state, which we see ourselves first hand when he's on a lower flatform than Jiren, Jiren is blasting him and Goku is parrying with blasts fired off from his aura: Over the course of mere moments, Goku goes from barely being able to defend himself to easily overpowering Jiren's barrage with his own.

Furthermore, when Goku enters the Ultra Instinct Sign form for the first time, the Realm of the Void trembles just from him powering up.

So, for context...



This is Universe 7, home reality of Goku. The clear dome that's over half of the sphere is Otherworld, including Hell, Heaven, the check-in stations, Snake Way, most of the kai planets...

The Bronze bowl that's the bottom half is the mortal universe. Earth and the surfing planets, Namek, the cosmic dust that used to be Planet Vegeta...

The little spike at the bottom of the spear is the Dark Demon Realm, which as far as I can tell from all available information is a piece of hell that was broken off and moved to the other side of the mortal universe as a ghetto to keep evil kais isolated from the rest of the universe.

the ball orbiting around it is the Sacred Realm of the Kais, which is where the Supreme Kai lives. I do not the know if the ring is a physical structure or if it's just to illustrate that the Supreme Kai's pocket reality is orbiting the rest of the universe.

The known universe is 93.016 billion lightyears across. I'm going to be conservative and assume that this is the diameter of the sphere.

Halfing that to get the radius we get 46.508. Plugging that into the equation to find the area of a sphere we get 4x π x 46.51² = 27,180.98504.

which brings us to a whopping twenty-seven trillion one hundred eighty billion nine hundred eighty-five million cubic lightyears

I'm gonna ignore the kai realm and the demon real because I'm gonna be honest I don't have a benchmark to estimate their size and these numbers are ridiculous enough.

Spoiler: Big Picture

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This is a model of the Dragon Ball Multiverse, all 12 universes that currently exist placed in a circle equidistant from the center. Universe 7 is the dark blue one on the bottom right.

The Realm of the Void that Goku made shake just by powering up is all of the empty space they're suspended in.

So, in order to shake the Realm of The Void, Goku needs to be able to emit enough energy just by powering up to shake not 1 but 12 discrete bodies of roughly that size, constructs that are collectively three hundred twenty-six trillion one hundred seventy-one billion eight hundred twenty million cubic lightyears in volume...

...Each of which contains literally infinite mass and energy since this is a setting in which perpetual power is demonstrably possible...

And also the medium they are suspended in.

Meaning that the first time Goku assumed Ultra Instinct Sign, he was passively putting out energy that significantly exceeded 12 infinities. And his power has greatly grown from there.

[Traab]

Talking about this time

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They did one of the things that annoyed me. They took a noncombat feat and declared it a combat level. In maderas case, the power required to make the god tree roots cover the earth in that time frame, in aizens, the whole balancing of the realms thing. The second one being more egregious because they basically decided that the power required to flip the three realms like a card table was required to put the realms off balance which is silly. You could just as easily say the soul king is the blades edge the realms are balanced on so even a slight nudge could topple the whole thing. Add a little extra weight and the seesaw comes thudding down. You dont need to be able to lift the seesaw and everyone on it to make that happen. But they had to give aizen SOMETHING to match maderas root growing feat even though neither actually covers the power they are capable of dishing out in a fight.

To me the real fight came down to whose illusions and ability to escape them were the best. And I have to admit I agree with madera. Aizen is only seen dealing with illusions himself once. And his powers had little to do with figuring them out. Meanwhile a large part of the uchiha bloodline revolves around shattering any and all illusions. One is a master at creating them, the other a master at breaking them. I also disagree with the "only madera could truly defeat aizen, aizen couldnt defeat madera thing. We already know and have seen repeated use of seals in bleach to bind and trap souls. There is no reason aizen couldnt have used one of those to win the fight.

Talking about next time. So dumb, i dont care.

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It should be saitama in a walk but im aware that old comic characters always have some stupid feat of ludicrous power that could be used to justify a stomp in the other direction. Popeye spends most of his time fighting some dockyard ruffian with no abilities while one punch is fighting city destroying threats. Well I say fighting, its more like "fighting".
but meh. Maybe popeye will run out of spinach before he can get the win? Maybe saitama will accidentally boot popeye into a field of spinach turning him into the incredible hulk.

[McNum]

Spoiler: This Time

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Sure, let's go with that. I haven't read or watched Bleach, so I can't really comment on either. Both sound hilariously overpowered and broken, though, so I'll accept the logic of it coming down to illusions.

Spoiler: Next Time

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Oh dear. If Popeye gets his spinach, it's all over. And don't think that killing him will stop him from eating it, it'll just fall into his mouth and he'll revive all spinach-powered.

We're talking about a guy who once punched a bull so hard it turned into perfect cuts of beef hanging from a wooden butcher's stall. Punching a bull into cuts is one thing, but where'd the wood come from?

[Rynjin]

I love One Punch Man. Great series, great characters, Saitama is a blast.

Dude gets ****ing mollywhopped by Popeye, no question. This is not a joke, this is not a meme, Popeye has more and bigger feats than Saitama, so unless they're taking the Word of God "Saitama's fists each hold one half of the power of the Big Bang" quote as absolute truth, sorry, Popeye is Solar System level AT LEAST, he's got this in the bag.

I'm pretty sure this battle is nothing but an excuse to introduce more people to the insane depths of Popeye lore.

[McNum]

Popeye's feats are ridiculous. Need scaling to destroying meteors? He's got it. He also broke the moon once, by punching Bluto into it. But that pales to the time he knocked Bluto into the stars and broke those. He also blew out the sun once because it was bothering him.

Honestly, Bluto is kind of the unsung hero... villain... whatever here. He TOOK those hits and kept coming back for more.

[Forum Explorer]

By DB's logic of USE THE GREATEST FEATS, NO MATTER HOW INCONSISTENT WITH NORMAL CARACTERIZATION, Popeye should take this one, since in the old comics he's done stuff like pull the moon and even break "reality" (i.e.: break the 4th wall and hit the writer).

Admitedly, we don't know Saitama's limits, since the only physical feats he hasn't achieved ars the ones he didn't try.

But, well... Is there really any question that the character with decades of stories using cartoon logic will win over the one with the much shorter and far less cartoony history??

This is basically Scrooge McDuck vs Shovel Knight again.

Spoiler: Next Time

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Well maybe. Until Popeye eats his Spinach he's basically an ordinary guy. Which Saitama can splatter in one hit. And he is basically just as fast as he strong. So there's no reason why Saitama shouldn't just immediately win before Popeye could even open his mouth.

Spoiler: This time

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The God-Tree feat was BS, as the tree was at best a summon. It did that on it's own. There's no evidence AFAIK, that Madara was directly controlling the tree.

Regardless, yeah I do follow the logic of Madara has shown the ability to break out of illusions and Aizen has not. Madara has shown the ability to shut down regeneration and Aizen has not. And that Madara just in general has shown a lot more techniques than Aizen has. This kinda comes back to the whole 'Bleach is bad at feats' thing. All in all, I feel like this was the expected result.

[Talakeal]

[QUOTE=Forum Explorer;25293124]

Spoiler: Next Time

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Well maybe. Until Popeye eats his Spinach he's basically an ordinary guy. Which Saitama can splatter in one hit. And he is basically just as fast as he strong. So there's no reason why Saitama shouldn't just immediately win before Popeye could even open his mouth.

I have never seen DB do that though. They want an entertaining match, so they never have anyone killed while in depowered mode even if it would make perfect sense (eg carol danvers vs billy batson).

[tyckspoon]

I have never seen DB do that though. They want an entertaining match, so they never have anyone killed while in depowered mode even if it would make perfect sense (eg carol danvers vs billy batson).

Yeah, the 'these characters are willing to actively try to kill each other' never seems to extend to the degree of just murdering the other combatant with an overwhelming strike right out of the gate, everybody fights just fair enough to let the other guy go through all of their powerup phases.. that said it's quite in character for Saitama to not open with full force. Even non-spinached Popeye is still a cartoon character and almost certainly has shown feats of durability that are enough to say that he'd survive Saitama giving him the sort of testing strike that is used for Saitama to figure out if he needs to get any more serious. Which would take it into the 'huh he's strong, better spinach up' and 'Ok, let's break out the Serious Series' phases of the fight.

[Rynjin]

Popeye actually has a pretty impressive series of non-spinach feats. Notably, he can still rearrange the landscape without it.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: Next Time

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Well maybe. Until Popeye eats his Spinach he's basically an ordinary guy. Which Saitama can splatter in one hit. And he is basically just as fast as he strong. So there's no reason why Saitama shouldn't just immediately win before Popeye could even open his mouth.

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Remember Jotaro vs Kenshiro? In the aftermath of that they flat out admitted that there were plenty of ways that Jotaro could have instantly killed Kenshirou and vice versa but they ignored all of them for the sake of entertainment value.

...which, you know, basically is them admitting that their claims of these episodes being "definitive" is bullcrap.