DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

[Rater202]

Ya'll realize we're talking about a company that looked at all the different incarnations of Link and decided "**** it we'll just give him all the best stuff" There's no telling what evidence they'll use, what they'll willfully ignore, and what they'll misinterpret.

The matchup could be Saitama vs Frodo and it's basically a tossup who wins the fight when they're the judge.

They treat game and comics Sonic as different, so either they treat game and comics Shadow as different or we all ignore the results because they cheated in Shadow's favor.

[Anteros]

Normally I could buy that as an argument, but we've seen Shadow. Multiple times. They didn't give him anything new the second time around, I don't see why they would now.

I'm just saying that if you're basing your opinion on the expectation that they'll be internally consistent then you're going to have a bad time.

[Rynjin]

I haven't seen the other two fights, but it seems already internally inconsistent to use a weaker version of the character.

[Rater202]

I haven't seen the other two fights, but it seems already internally inconsistent to use a weaker version of the character.

They use the most Iconic version. Not the strongest.

Otherwise, they'd have used Superman Prime or The Carnage Cosmic.

[Kitten Champion]

He did, but that was a case of Mewtwo being a hard counter to Shadow. Shadow has no defenses against psychic attacks and has lost his memory several times. So Mewtwo did just that again.

I think that was one of the fastest Death Battles ever.

He did. He also fought and lost to Vegeta. We should be very familiar with Shadow's abilities by now, and unless he's had a new release lately I don't know about, the stats we've seem them use is no where near close enough to win.
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Oh, Vegeta too, I don't even remember that one being a thing. I guess Shadow's their go-to jobber, or Anteros is right and this is to play down expectations for a result that's more of a coin-toss than anything.

Which character has Death Battle used the most to be defeated each time? 'Cause assuming this is a loss, thrice over seems like a lot.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm just saying that if you're basing your opinion on the expectation that they'll be internally consistent then you're going to have a bad time.

Their reputation for inconsistency is overblown. More often than not, the character you expect to win is the one to actually win. Don't get me wrong, sometimes they pretty blatantly mess up. But those are the memorable exception, not the rule.

Oh, Vegeta too, I don't even remember that one being a thing. I guess Shadow's their go-to jobber, or Anteros is right and this is to play down expectations for a result that's more of a coin-toss than anything.

Which character has Death Battle used the most to be defeated each time? 'Cause assuming this is a loss, thrice over seems like a lot.

If you count the variants of Batman, I think it's Batman as I'm pretty sure the two Batman won against is Captain America and Future Spiderman. But he lost to Spiderman, Black Panther, Spider-Gwen, and I think I'm missing one more.

If not, than that would put Shadow tied for most losses with no wins to his name. I really don't know why they keep using him. Yeah, he fits the theme of genetic superperson made to be the 'ultimate lifeform', but that's a pretty common trope. Let these various genetically engineered beings fight each other for a change instead of the angsty hedgehog.

[Rynjin]

They use the most Iconic version. Not the strongest.

Otherwise, they'd have used Superman Prime or The Carnage Cosmic.

Don't they explicitly use a composite Superman?

[Devonix]

Don't they explicitly use a composite Superman?

Nope they used New Earth Superman aka Post Crisis. They mentioned some stuff from new 52 but that's debatable since it's still the same character just with some universe shennanigans. And didn't seem to use any actual feats from that version anyway.

[Kitten Champion]

If you count the variants of Batman, I think it's Batman as I'm pretty sure the two Batman won against is Captain America and Future Spiderman. But he lost to Spiderman, Black Panther, Spider-Gwen, and I think I'm missing one more.

I'd just chalk that up to Batman being popular and generally easy to find opponents for. Same for Spider-Man.

If not, than that would put Shadow tied for most losses with no wins to his name. I really don't know why they keep using him. Yeah, he fits the theme of genetic superperson made to be the 'ultimate lifeform', but that's a pretty common trope. Let these various genetically engineered beings fight each other for a change instead of the angsty hedgehog.

I think he's too... one track. Like, his image and persona is definitely absurd in various ways, but in practice he's really not that distinct from other Sonic characters. It creates a gap in expectations, which I think DB is profiting off of.

[Dragonus45]

You know, this is why Gainax/Studio Trigger works, specificall the Hiroyuki Imaishi and Kazuki Nakashima stuff, are bad for Death Battles. You have protagonists who literally as a function of their powers and settings run on the Rule of Cool and literally deny the concept of physics with sheer willpower in very ill defined ways smashing into attempts to codify and number character feats and actions in ways that they are functionally anathema too.

Their reputation for inconsistency is overblown. More often than not, the character you expect to win is the one to actually win. Don't get me wrong, sometimes they pretty blatantly mess up. But those are the memorable exception, not the rule.

Even the times things work out "as expected" I almost always find something to gripe about in the logic of how they got their, either in them being internally inconsistent or just consistent fallacies I find they rely on too often. Like, the infamous Krav Maga versus CQC issue. Where CQC is literally just a fictionalized version of Krav Maga but is better because reasons.

[Keltest]

You know, this is why Gainax/Studio Trigger works, specificall the Hiroyuki Imaishi and Kazuki Nakashima stuff, are bad for Death Battles. You have protagonists who literally as a function of their powers and settings run on the Rule of Cool and literally deny the concept of physics with sheer willpower in very ill defined ways smashing into attempts to codify and number character feats and actions in ways that they are functionally anathema too.

Yeah, i tend to just outright ignore arguments based on that. For starters, ignoring physics is definitionally impossible. Physics are just different for that universe in a way people dont understand. They arent at all the same thing.

Secondly, if you have to resort to playing Calvinball in order to justify a character winning, this is no longer Death Battles, its, well, Calvinball. And maybe theyll decide to use such and such character's playing of Calvinball as an actual feat, but more often they tend to show up on certain posters lists of "things they ignored" and it serves only to fuel a bunch of whining about how their favorite anime character didnt win their fight.

[Forum Explorer]

You know, this is why Gainax/Studio Trigger works, specificall the Hiroyuki Imaishi and Kazuki Nakashima stuff, are bad for Death Battles. You have protagonists who literally as a function of their powers and settings run on the Rule of Cool and literally deny the concept of physics with sheer willpower in very ill defined ways smashing into attempts to codify and number character feats and actions in ways that they are functionally anathema too.



Even the times things work out "as expected" I almost always find something to gripe about in the logic of how they got their, either in them being internally inconsistent or just consistent fallacies I find they rely on too often. Like, the infamous Krav Maga versus CQC issue. Where CQC is literally just a fictionalized version of Krav Maga but is better because reasons.

There is plenty of ridiculous opponents out there to fight, even other characters who run on willpower. Death Battle can just be really bad about picking appropriate fights.


That's true. Pretty often I might agree with the results but disagree with how they got there. Like Obi-Wan vs Kakashi. Or Sanji vs Rock Lee.

And there constant use of travel speed as combat speed drives me up the wall.

[Rater202]

Yeah, i tend to just outright ignore arguments based on that.

You can't just ignore "character canonically does not obey the same fundamental laws of reality as everyone else" and if you ignore "character can affect reality by wanting it bad enough" then you've got to ignore pretty much every instance of psychic powers or magic.

If yo're ignoring that Life Fibers don't obey the conventional laws of physics and that Ryuko affect the world around her by being just that awesome, then you've also got to ignore Shadow's ability to warp reality with Chaos Energy.

At which point it breaks down to a really fast rodent with anti-gravity shoes trying to punch to death someone who can't be killed by punching.

[Keltest]

You can't just ignore "character canonically does not obey the same fundamental laws of reality as everyone else" and if you ignore "character can affect reality by wanting it bad enough" then you've got to ignore pretty much every instance of psychic powers or magic.

If yo're ignoring that Life Fibers don't obey the conventional laws of physics and can affect the world around her by being just that awesome, then you've also got to ignore Shadow's ability to warp reality with Chaos Energy.

At which point it breaks down to a really fast rodent with anti-gravity shoes trying to punch to death someone who can't be killed by punching.

Sure i can. Watch, im doing it right now. Notice how i didnt even touch the claim that she could get out of having time stopped for her because reasons. I simply have no interest in playing Calvinball in this thread, and when you get right down to it, thats what it is.


ETA: There is a difference between "this is an established power of theirs that doesnt obey real world physics" and "their powers ignore their own in setting rules in ways that cant be quantified at all." It is the latter that i ignore.

[Rater202]

Sure i can. Watch, im doing it right now. Notice how i didnt even touch the claim that she could get out of having time stopped for her because reasons. I simply have no interest in playing Calvinball in this thread, and when you get right down to it, thats what it is.


ETA: There is a difference between "this is an established power of theirs that doesnt obey real world physics" and "their powers ignore their own in setting rules in ways that cant be quantified at all." It is the latter that i ignore.

You don't get to ignore that though. If you want to debate honestly, the fact that something doesn't follow the conventional laws of physics but instead a completly different set of rules can't be ignored.

Chaos Control is using the Chaos Emeralds to manipulate space-time.

The thing is... Manipulating physics tends to not work so well against something that is following a completely different set of physics.

[Keltest]

You don't get to ignore that though. If you want to debate honestly, the fact that something doesn't follow the conventional laws of physics but instead a completly different set of rules can't be ignored.

Chaos Control is using the Chaos Emeralds to manipulate space-time.

The thing is... Manipulating physics tends to not work so well against something that is following a completely different set of physics.

Yeah, but you arent saying that one of her powersets is that she exists outside of conventional time or anything like that, just that she can sometimes ignore stuff because reasons. You arent even saying its something she's been established as actually being capable of, just that you think that she probably could.

Im not playing that game.

[Forum Explorer]

Sure i can. Watch, im doing it right now. Notice how i didnt even touch the claim that she could get out of having time stopped for her because reasons. I simply have no interest in playing Calvinball in this thread, and when you get right down to it, thats what it is.


ETA: There is a difference between "this is an established power of theirs that doesnt obey real world physics" and "their powers ignore their own in setting rules in ways that cant be quantified at all." It is the latter that i ignore.

It kinda is kinda not sort of situation here. I do feel like Rater is exaggerating Ryuko's limits here. But the Life Fibers do have some pretty explicit physics breaking abilities. Like the whole can regenerate so long as the injury isn't a perfect cut from both sides. That's a property of Life Fibers that's pretty much absolute. It doesn't matter if you stop time or what not. You didn't follow those conditions, Ryuko gets to regenerate. It very much does ignore logical get arounds.

Similarly Sangetz can transform into pretty much anything without loss. He does have some limitations there, but they are mostly imagination based (IE, he has to think of it), but it is somewhat power based. He had to absorb a lot of life fibers in order to get enough power to escape Earth's Gravity well for example.

All that being said though, Kill la Kill does very much run on rule of cool. It is not shy about having characters do stuff that don't actually make sense simply because they think it's cool/funny. Like having slabs of beef be effective armor for tanks.

[Rater202]

Yeah, but you arent saying that one of her powersets is that she exists outside of conventional time or anything like that, just that she can sometimes ignore stuff because reasons. You arent even saying its something she's been established as actually being capable of, just that you think that she probably could.

Im not playing that game.

I'm not saying that she can ignore a time stop. I'm saying that you can't take on faith that she can't.

Ryuko, who has life fiber genetic code intermixed with her own and life fibers woven through every inch of her body, on a fundamental level, explicitly, canonically, does not follow the same rules as everyone else.

I have cited Nui, another life-fiber hybrid, compressing herself down to two dimensions as an example of life-fibers being able to ignore and manipulate physics. Though that would count as a manipulation of space, mind you.

Ryuko is a more "perfect" Hybrid than Nui. Which is somewhat ironic for story reasons.

And as Senketsu states when he physically transforms himself after seeing Ira Gamagoori's Three-Star Goku Uniform(a set of clothing composed of 30% Life Fibers) anything one set of Life Fibers can do can be replicated by others.

"Time" as we know it is essentially just the perception of the interaction of certain physical laws.

You cannot take on faith that "time" os the same to Ryuko as it is to everyone else.

[Keltest]

It kinda is kinda not sort of situation here. I do feel like Rater is exaggerating Ryuko's limits here. But the Life Fibers do have some pretty explicit physics breaking abilities. Like the whole can regenerate so long as the injury isn't a perfect cut from both sides. That's a property of Life Fibers that's pretty much absolute. It doesn't matter if you stop time or what not. You didn't follow those conditions, Ryuko gets to regenerate. It very much does ignore logical get arounds.

Similarly Sangetz can transform into pretty much anything without loss. He does have some limitations there, but they are mostly imagination based (IE, he has to think of it), but it is somewhat power based. He had to absorb a lot of life fibers in order to get enough power to escape Earth's Gravity well for example.

All that being said though, Kill la Kill does very much run on rule of cool. It is not shy about having characters do stuff that don't actually make sense simply because they think it's cool/funny. Like having slabs of beef be effective armor for tanks.

I just need a better reason for something to happen than "because". If its consistent and explicit, im willing to accept "its magic, it just works that way" as that better reason, as long as it actually matches the character's feats. I have no problems with the regeneration, because its an explicit ability that has a specific condition to overcome it. In my example of pushing the heart into another time, if the response was "well then she grows a new one" i would accept that. "She can just decide she doesnt want to be affected by time stopping out of nowhere" doesnt meet my standard. Its speculation, its not an established power, its not even something that should logically be derived from her powers that just isnt explored. Its just literally them giving her a new power out of nowhere with no basis for her having it except to generate an excuse for her to win.

I'm not saying that she can ignore a time stop. I'm saying that you can't take on faith that she can't.

Ryuko, who has life fiber genetic code intermixed with her own and life fibers woven through every inch of her body, on a fundamental level, explicitly, canonically, does not follow the same rules as everyone else.

I have cited Nui, another life-fiber hybrid, compressing herself down to two dimensions as an example of life-fibers being able to ignore and manipulate physics. Though that would count as a manipulation of space, mind you.

Ryuko is a more "perfect" Hybrid than Nui. Which is somewhat ironic for story reasons.

And as Senketsu states when he physically transforms himself after seeing Ira Gamagoori's Three-Star Goku Uniform(a set of clothing composed of 30% Life Fibers) anything one set of Life Fibers can do can be replicated by others.

"Time" as we know it is essentially just the perception of the interaction of certain physical laws.

You cannot take on faith that "time" os the same to Ryuko as it is to everyone else.

Absent an actual demonstration of time not applying to her the same way as everybody else, i can and i will continue to take it on faith. Otherwise that would be, to use your own word for it, cheating.

[Dragonus45]

I just need a better reason for something to happen than "because".

Well, if you were to ask Hiroyuki Imaishi and Kazuki Nakashima why certain characters in TTGN or Kill La Kill can do the things they do that would often be the answer. Hence why I said they don't work great in death battle.

[BloodSquirrel]

I'm not saying that she can ignore a time stop. I'm saying that you can't take on faith that she can't.

The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that she can.

I hate to break this to you, but Kill a Kill is not unique in having characters do physically impossible things. Gotenks can scream so loud that it tears open a dimensional hole. Saitama gained planetary-level strength because of vague nonsense like "he broke his limiter". Fighter from 8-bit theater was able to save the light warriors from falling to their deaths by blocking the Earth (because he figured that falling to your death was the same as being hit with the planet- even though that's completely wrong physically). Thanos with the reality stone seems to be able to do basically anything he wants.

You can play the game you want to play with Ryoko with almost any other character. Saitama beats her because his whole thing is that he beats everyone in one punch. Bug Bunny beats her because he can do anything if it's a good joke. Hell, John Wick is also based off of 'rule of cool'. Does that mean he can kill Ryoko by shooting her in the front at the same time as a bullet fired earlier ricochets into her back?

The whole argument degenerates into "My character wins because cool stuff happens in fiction and I think it's cooler if she wins".

[Keltest]

Well, if you were to ask Hiroyuki Imaishi and Kazuki Nakashima why certain characters in TTGN or Kill La Kill can do the things they do that would often be the answer. Hence why I said they don't work great in death battle.

That would be the Doyalist reason. Im looking for the Watsonian reason.

[Forum Explorer]

That would be the Doyalist reason. Im looking for the Watsonian reason.

That would probably be something like 'as a perfect hybrid, Ryuko can do anything that either life fibers or humans can do, so thus she can do anything you see the characters on screen do, plus a few more things.'

[Rater202]

The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that she can.

I hate to break this to you, but Kill a Kill is not unique in having characters do physically impossible things. Gotenks can scream so loud that it tears open a dimensional hole. Saitama gained planetary-level strength because of vague nonsense like "he broke his limiter". Fighter from 8-bit theater was able to save the light warriors from falling to their deaths by blocking the Earth (because he figured that falling to your death was the same as being hit with the planet- even though that's completely wrong physically). Thanos with the reality stone seems to be able to do basically anything he wants.

How many of those characters are explicitly stated to not obey the same laws of physics as everoyne else?

Other than Thanos with the reality stone, because the Reality stone arps reality.

Life Fibers operate on a completly different set of rules. This is explicitly stated in the anime.

I'm not some kid on the playground saying "hur due broly to kill God becuase Broly's power Maximum."

Ryuko is a life fiber. She's human, but she's also a life fiber.

Life Fibers canonically operate on a completly different set of physics than what is conventionally understood.

Looking it up, Chaos Control works by using Chaos energy to manipulate the properties of space and time.

There is a legitimate argument that chaos control wouldn't work on someone who follows a completly different set of laws of physics.

Chaos Control is Shadow's only chance of winning, but it's not guaranteed to be effective.

Especially since Life Fiber Hybrids, have demonstrated space warping abilities(time and space being, essentially, the same thing) and an explicit statement that one Life Fiber organism can do anything another Life Fiber organism is capable of.

Edit: Also, if you want to be pedantic, the burden of proof is not on me, as the initial assertion was that Shadow could win by using Chaos Control and provided a reason why he might not be able to use it on Ryuko due to unique properties of Ryuko's physical makeup, that being that she's composed of organisms that don't obey conventional physics while Chaos control works by manipulating conventional physical properties.

[Keltest]

That would probably be something like 'as a perfect hybrid, Ryuko can do anything that either life fibers or humans can do, so thus she can do anything you see the characters on screen do, plus a few more things.'

I mean... yes. Im aware of that for the actually demonstrated feats. Im not actually fishing for a specific example at this point, i think its pretty much concluded that ignoring time stop is not among her demonstrated powers. Im just talking in general at this point. From a doyalist perspective, just about everything happens in fiction because the author thinks it would be cool and/or interesting and/or meaningful.

There is a legitimate argument that chaos control wouldn't work on someone who follows a completly different set of laws of physics.

Yeah, but that cuts both ways. There is an equally legitimate argument that since she's in the Death Battles universe, her own powers dont work either. You cant prove it either way. So for the sake of our sanity, we should just assume each combatant's powers will be able to work as advertised on the other unless they have some explicit immunity to those powers.

Edit: Also, if you want to be pedantic, the burden of proof is not on me, as the initial assertion was that Shadow could win by using Chaos Control and provided a reason why he might not be able to use it on Ryuko due to unique properties of Ryuko's physical makeup, that being that she's composed of organisms that don't obey conventional physics while Chaos control works by manipulating conventional physical properties.

"Physics is different between the two universes" is true of just about every cross-setting matchup they can have. How would you react if they said that Goku couldnt affect Superman because he comes from a universe where Ki doesnt work like that?

[Dragonus45]

That would be the Doyalist reason. Im looking for the Watsonian reason.

Yea, and they would reply "Because"

[Keltest]

Yea, and they would reply "Because"

Thats... not how watsonian reasons work. More likely they would reply "I dont know. Does it matter?"

[Dragonus45]

Thats... not how watsonian reasons work. More likely they would reply "I dont know. Does it matter?"

In this case, it 100% is.

[Rater202]

"Physics is different between the two universes" is true of just about every cross-setting matchup they can have. How would you react if they said that Goku couldnt affect Superman because he comes from a universe where Ki doesnt work like that?

That's not an apt comparison.

Superman doesn't have the power of "ki affects him differantly than it affects literally everyone else in his home universe."

[Keltest]

That's not an apt comparison.

Superman doesn't have the power of "ki affects him differantly than it affects literally everyone else in his home universe."

And she doesn't have the power of "time affects me differently than everybody else in her home universe." But that isn't stopping you from giving it to her anyway.