DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

[BloodSquirrel]

How many of those characters are explicitly stated to not obey the same laws of physics as everoyne else?

They explicitly *demonstrate* that they do not obey the same laws of physics as everyone else. Saitama is physically impossible There is no material in the real world that is that durable, and nothing that can generate that much force from that amount of mass. His ability to move exceeds what friction between his boot and the ground should allow. He is able to move at speeds that should set the air around him on fire but it somehow doesn't.

Life Fibers canonically operate on a completly different set of physics than what is conventionally understood.

This is true of any setting with any fantastic or sci-fi elements at all. If warp drives from Star Trek didn't operate on a different set of physics than in the real world, we'd have built a starship by now.

I'm not some kid on the playground saying "hur due broly to kill God becuase Broly's power Maximum."

You think that because you're biased toward your favorite character, but I've seen the exact kind of arguments you're making used 1,000 times for 1,000 different settings, and every one of those people- just like you- thought that they and their fav was the exception. If you asked that kid on the playground, he'd probably say "I'm not that jerk on the internet saying "Ryuko wins because special phyiscs hur".

And, in this case, he'd be able to do a better job of backing up his position by pointing out the gods in DBZ/DBS that Brolly is very much capable of killing, or bringing up the very-much-established-in-DBS ability of characters on his level to destroy the entire universe.

Edit: Also, if you want to be pedantic, the burden of proof is not on me,

Yes, it is. The claim that Shadow can use a power has its own burden of proof, but that burden is easily met by showing that he does it in the source material. You are now making a claim about how she can counter it, so the burden of proof is now on you.

[Rater202]

And she doesn't have the power of "time affects me differently than everybody else in her home universe." But that isn't stopping you from giving it to her anyway.

"Time" is an illusion caused by human perception of the curvature of space. In short, time is physics.

Physics applies to Ryuko differently than it does to everyone else in her home universe.

Based on other Life Fiber organisms, this includes being able to manipulate space.

Manipulating space is the same as manipulating time, due to that whole "illusion" thing I mentioned.

It's an easy enough conclusion to draw that "Manipulate Physical Properties to Stop Time" might not be 100% effective against Ryuko.

This is true of any setting with any fantastic or sci-fi elements at all. If warp drives from Star Trek didn't operate on a different set of physics than in the real world, we'd have built a starship by now.

Warp drives work by the same physics as everything else in Star Trek. You don't have scientists looking at Warp Cores and saying "this is literally impossible and yet somehow it exists."

Life Fibers explicitly do not work under the same laws of physics as everything else in Kill La Kill. You do have people pointing out that what they do should not be possible.

If you don't understand the vast gulf of difference between the two... I have neither the words nor spoons to explain it to you. I'm sorry.

[Keltest]

That continues to not be how physics work, and writers using words wrong is definitely not proof of characters having powers that they have never demonstrated.

You're arguing that because she has super powers, she therefore has other super powers that you just gave her. Can you not see why that isn't convincing?

[Dragonus45]

That continues to not be how physics work, and writers using words wrong is definitely not proof of characters having powers that they have never demonstrated.

It’s not how our physics work.

[Keltest]

It’s not how our physics work.

Its not how any physics work. Its what the word means. Physics are universal. Its like how rockets and planes both achieve lift. They aren't using different sets of physics, they're using different rules in the same set.

[BloodSquirrel]

Warp drives work by the same physics as everything else in Star Trek. You don't have scientists looking at Warp Cores and saying "this is literally impossible and yet somehow it exists."

I'm pretty sure that there are several times in Star Trek when a less advanced race encounters Federation technology and says exactly that. And you can pair those with the many, many times when the crew of the Enterprise encounters technology that is basically magic to them (Like the Q).

Life Fibers explicitly do not work under the same laws of physics as everything else in Kill La Kill. You do have people pointing out that what they do should not be possible.

This is the exact same thing that happens in any series where somebody encounters technology that they don't understand. We even have a famous quote about it- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Life Fibers aren't special. They violate physics *as the characters in the show understand them*. That's a limitation of those characters and their understanding, not some unique idea that only Kill a Kill has come up with. Thor's magi-tech or Dr. Strange's magic also violate physics as Tony Stark understands them. The Forerunner technology in Halo was literally worshiped as divine by the Covenant, and the Forerunners themselves couldn't understand how Precursor technology was possible ("neural physics" is some seriously "magic technology" stuff). The Warp in Warhammer 40k is explicitly a place where the laws of physics have to run away and go hide before they get eaten by a demon.

That scene with Fighter blocking the Earth? The actual line of dialog that follows is "I hate it when the things he says that don't make sense make sense". And that's coming from a character that once stole something metaphysical by making a solipsistic legal argument for it. 8-bit theater is one of the many, many series that absolutely eat Kill a Kill's lunch when it comes to characters doing things which, in-universe, are not supposed to be physically possible.

Edit: Another line from 8-Bit Theater: "Why do we even have physics?"

If you don't understand the vast gulf of difference between the two... I have neither the words nor spoons to explain it to you. I'm sorry.

The reason you don't have the words to explain it to me is because it's not something that has an objective, rational basis on which to express it. It's just how you feel about Kill a Kill, and since I don't feel the same way, none of your arguments are going to have any weight.

[Rater202]

Its not how any physics work. Its what the word means. Physics are universal. Its like how rockets and planes both achieve lift. They aren't using different sets of physics, they're using different rules in the same set.

So you know how in Lovecraft'sworks the fact that Cthulhu and his ilk ran on completly differant rules than humans was part of what made them scary?

It's the same thing for Life Fibers.

In the KlK universe, Yog Sothoth and Cthulhu aren't squid. They're a ball of yarn and a business suit.

Or, rather, what we think of as business suits are unconsciously modeled on the natural form of eldritch abominations who've been on earth for hundreds of millions of years and used their powers to alter the biosphere to ensure that clothes wearing hominids would eventually evolve.

And regardless, if you're just going to say "that's not how physics works" then logically we should be arguing that this is a fight between an ordinary athletically built 17-year-old girl and an ordinary hedgehog.

[Forum Explorer]

I mean... yes. Im aware of that for the actually demonstrated feats. Im not actually fishing for a specific example at this point, i think its pretty much concluded that ignoring time stop is not among her demonstrated powers. Im just talking in general at this point. From a doyalist perspective, just about everything happens in fiction because the author thinks it would be cool and/or interesting and/or meaningful.

Sure. Honestly I'd rather move away from the whole Ryuko can do anything thing. I mean, it's demonstratively false. It took effort on her part to leave Earth's gravity well. She needed the Life Fibers from everyone's clothing in order to pull that off. Now she should arguably stay that strong, once she absorbs life fibers they typically stay absorbed, but the point is that she can hit a limit.

Why? Because the author's thought it would be cooler if she built a space ship by stripping everyone's clothing off them than just flying there by herself. Rule of Cool goes both ways afterall. Winning easily isn't as interesting as struggling.

[Dragonus45]

Its not how any physics work. Its what the word means. Physics are universal. Its like how rockets and planes both achieve lift. They aren't using different sets of physics, they're using different rules in the same set.

That would be how things work in our universe sure, but in a fictional one that need not apply.

This is the exact same thing that happens in any series where somebody encounters technology that they don't understand. We even have a famous quote about it- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

A quote that in it's initial context assumes that magic isn't real. When considering a universe where it is, you can just as easily say sufficiently advanced magic is easily indistinguishable from science and attempting to explain it from a scientific frame work has as much meaning as a cave man calling a space mans rocket ship a magical chariot.

[Keltest]

Sure. Honestly I'd rather move away from the whole Ryuko can do anything thing. I mean, it's demonstratively false. It took effort on her part to leave Earth's gravity well. She needed the Life Fibers from everyone's clothing in order to pull that off. Now she should arguably stay that strong, once she absorbs life fibers they typically stay absorbed, but the point is that she can hit a limit.

Why? Because the author's thought it would be cooler if she built a space ship by stripping everyone's clothing off them than just flying there by herself. Rule of Cool goes both ways afterall. Winning easily isn't as interesting as struggling.

And with that, I am going to ask what may well be the dumbest question this thread will see.

Does that mean the fact that Shadow is naked gives him an advantage?

[Rater202]

And with that, I am going to ask what may well be the dumbest question this thread will see.

Does that mean the fact that Shadow is naked gives him an advantage?

No. Absorbing life Fibers makes her(and Senketsu) stronger but it's not an internal part of her power set.

As it is, Ryuko could already fly, she just needed to put more juice into it.

All Shadow not wearing clothes means is that he won't be stripped naked if Ryuko lands her finishing move on him.

(By destroying a target's Goku uniform, Ryuko or Senketsu can then absorb the life fibers it's made of.)

[Dragonus45]

And with that, I am going to ask what may well be the dumbest question this thread will see.

Does that mean the fact that Shadow is naked gives him an advantage?

Potentially. There was a reason so many of the characters battling the evil empire of cloth monsters decided to become nudists. I doubt he will need it though, the speed feats for Matoi are nebulous at best and DB overvalues speed generally plus Sonic is pretty wild and I don't buy the idea Matoi could break timestop. The one real hope I think she has is that they Dante this up and decide she just can't die like they did in his matchup. Him having clothes or not probably won't add up to much.

[BloodSquirrel]

A quote that in it's initial context assumes that magic isn't real. When considering a universe where it is, you can just as easily say sufficiently advanced magic is easily indistinguishable from science and attempting to explain it from a scientific frame work has as much meaning as a cave man calling a space mans rocket ship a magical chariot.

No, that's missing the point.

The distinction that Clarke was making is that "technology" runs on laws of physics that you understand well enough to manipulate. With moderately advanced tech, you can add or bend a few laws of physics, but the technology still works according to those rules in an understandable manner. With "magic", it does what it does because that's just how it works, and any rules are mostly arbitrary.

Actual magic being real doesn't change that- if your technology is sufficiently advanced, it's still beyond the point where you can apply semi-understandable physics to it. It just does what it does, and any rules are mostly arbitrary. You can still have magic and technology be explicitly different things, but from the audience's perspective, it's just going to mean that you have two flavors of magic.

"Sufficiently advanced magic" being science doesn't really make sense at all. You'd have a better point if you said that "sufficiently explained magic" becomes indistinguishable from technology, but that's the exact opposite of "attempting to explain it from a scientific frame work has as much meaning as a cave man calling a space mans rocket ship a magical chariot.

[Rater202]

Potentially. There was a reason so many of the characters battling the evil empire of cloth monsters decided to become nudists. I doubt he will need it though, the speed feats for Matoi are nebulous at best and DB overvalues speed generally plus Sonic is pretty wild and I don't buy the idea Matoi could break timestop. The one real hope I think she has is that they Dante this up and decide she just can't die like they did in his matchup. Him having clothes or not probably won't add up to much.

I'd point out that the reason why they became nudists is becuase REVOCS took over the entire clothing industry and pretty much every bit of commercially available clothing in the world has a few Life Fibers sewn into it.

"Don't mess wth the parasitic eldritch abominations unless you're getting something from it and even then..." is a rational decision. In fact, as soon as the vast majority of Life Fibers on Earth are destroyed or rendered dormant one of them asks if he can put his pants back on.

Being naked doesn't make you a better fighter of Life Fibers, it's just... "Let's not expose ourselves to hostile parasites."

[Forum Explorer]

And with that, I am going to ask what may well be the dumbest question this thread will see.

Does that mean the fact that Shadow is naked gives him an advantage?

I mean, maybe. If it took place in the Kill La Kill universe, sure. Most clothing on Earth was infested by Life Fibers at the end of it, and Ryuko could theoretically tell the clothes activate like Raygo did.

Otherwise no. If there isn't any life fibers present than the clothing is just clothing.

Potentially. There was a reason so many of the characters battling the evil empire of cloth monsters decided to become nudists. I doubt he will need it though, the speed feats for Matoi are nebulous at best and DB overvalues speed generally plus Sonic is pretty wild and I don't buy the idea Matoi could break timestop. The one real hope I think she has is that they Dante this up and decide she just can't die like they did in his matchup. Him having clothes or not probably won't add up to much.

They've gotten a lot better about the speed thing. It does come down to can Shadow actually kill Matoi or not. Sure Matoi is quick and strong, but no where near Shadow's base speed. It's just...well, I do think it will be basically a Dante situation. Shadow simply won't be able to kill Matoi, and will eventually run out of energy. And once Shadow gets exhausted, Matoi will be able to land the killing blow. She certainly has the strength and force feats for that.

Theoretically, this should be a tie, since Shadow could just retreat when he's getting tired, and rest up before Matoi could find him, but I'm pretty sure that violates the whole bloodlust thing.

[HolyDraconus]

Shadow has the Broly factor though, since he scales to Sonic. Ever since Forces Sonic grows stronger every second, taking out a boss in his base that he needed help and a super form previously to contend with. And again, Shadow is a genius, and generally has few appearances where he removes his limiters. He survived reentry with the limiters on for example.


No where has it been shown from what I seen that Ryuko can tank timestop, nor teleportation. She can survive being hit, but Shadow is smart enough to use his portals like sling rings from dr strange and cut her in two.

[Rater202]

Shadow has the Broly factor though, since he scales to Sonic. Ever since Forces Sonic grows stronger every second, taking out a boss in his base that he needed help and a super form previously to contend with. And again, Shadow is a genius, and generally has few appearances where he removes his limiters. He survived reentry with the limiters on for example.


No where has it been shown from what I seen that Ryuko can tank timestop, nor teleportation. She can survive being hit, but Shadow is smart enough to use his portals like sling rings from dr strange and cut her in two.

"is a Genius" is not the same as "knows everything."

Shadow would not automatically know how to overcome Ryuko's regeneration. He'd have to either have it explained to him it have to

I'm not gonna go into why Chaos Control might not work again, but a mature life fiber's healing factor is absolute. It's kill her in one very specific way or you don't kill her at all.

And just becuase Sonic gets stronger over time that doesn't mean that Shadow similarly gets more powerful from the passage of time. "Scales to Sonic" is not the same as "has all of Sonic's powers."

[Rynjin]

And just becuase Sonic gets stronger over time that doesn't mean that Shadow similarly gets more powerful from the passage of time. "Scales to Sonic" is not the same as "has all of Sonic's powers."

Isn't literally the entire point of Shadow that he's "I'm you but stronger" to Sonic? If anything, Sonic scales to Shadow; he has some of the same powers (Chaos Control, for one) but weaker and less reliable.

[Rater202]

Isn't literally the entire point of Shadow that he's "I'm you but stronger" to Sonic? If anything, Sonic scales to Shadow; he has some of the same powers (Chaos Control, for one) but weaker and less reliable.

Shadow's entire thing is that he's an Edgier sonic with cool powers.

In fact, there are hints in some games that Shadow was modeled on a figure from a prophecy that was referring to Sonic.

And regardless, "Shadow is stronger than Sonic" is not the same as "Shadow has every last one of Sonic's powers but stronger."

[HolyDraconus]

I'm not gonna go into why Chaos Control might not work again, but a mature life fiber's healing factor is absolute. It's kill her in one very specific way or you don't kill her at all.

Oh, so can you show me where they tried every way imaginable to kill her but came to the conclusion that only this one method works?

Shadow's entire thing is that he's an Edgier sonic with cool powers.

In fact, there are hints in some games that Shadow was modeled on a figure from a prophecy that was referring to Sonic.

And regardless, "Shadow is stronger than Sonic" is not the same as "Shadow has every last one of Sonic's powers but stronger."

Gotta shoot this down. Scourge is the “cooler, edgier Sonic”. Green with the leather jacket is just a better look. Imo of course. I’m on mobile so I hope you see the blue text on this.

[Rater202]

Oh, so can you show me where they tried every way imaginable to kill her but came to the conclusion that only this one method works?

I do not remember the episode name off the top of my head, but it is explicitly stated towards the middle of the series that Ryuko's father spent a great deal of time studying life fibers and determined that cutting from both sides with perfect precision so that the two blades cut the same point in the body at the same time from perfectly symmetrical angles was the only way to inflict damage that wouldn't instantly regenerate to complex organisms composed of multiple fully mature life fibers.

Ryuko is explicitly one such organism.

[HolyDraconus]

I do not remember the episode name off the top of my head, but it is explicitly stated towards the middle of the series that Ryuko's father spent a great deal of time studying life fibers and determined that cutting from both sides with perfect precision so that the two blades cut the same point in the body at the same time from perfectly symmetrical angles was the only way to inflict damage that wouldn't instantly regenerate to complex organisms composed of multiple fully mature life fibers.

Ryuko is explicitly one such organism.

.....except Nui is another one and she was stabbed in the eye: not cut in a perfectly symmetrical angle, which didn’t regrow.... so did Ryuko’s father try everything or stop at the first thing that worked?

[Forum Explorer]

Shadow has the Broly factor though, since he scales to Sonic. Ever since Forces Sonic grows stronger every second, taking out a boss in his base that he needed help and a super form previously to contend with. And again, Shadow is a genius, and generally has few appearances where he removes his limiters. He survived reentry with the limiters on for example.


No where has it been shown from what I seen that Ryuko can tank timestop, nor teleportation. She can survive being hit, but Shadow is smart enough to use his portals like sling rings from dr strange and cut her in two.

I don't think Shadow was in Sonic Forces, so I don't see why he would get those feats.

Except that wouldn't cut her the right way, so she'd just regenerate. Even if it did count as cutting her the right way she could just physically force her body back together anyways. Besides, has he ever done that? Or anyone in the Sonic franchise for that matter?

Timestop just means Shadow gets to attack Ryuko freely. It's not like timestop lets him bypass Ryuko's durability in any way.

Teleportation could kill Ryuko if he dumped her in the sun, or on a gas giant or something. So it's a possible win, but knowing that you have to teleport her there is something else entirely. More or less anywhere else, and Ryuko will just fly back without any problems.

And the important part is that Shadow has a very limited amount of time to figure out what will work and what doesn't. Shadow does not have unlimited stamina, and he does get tired. By the time he runs through his usual repertoire of attacks, he won't have that much time left.

Isn't literally the entire point of Shadow that he's "I'm you but stronger" to Sonic? If anything, Sonic scales to Shadow; he has some of the same powers (Chaos Control, for one) but weaker and less reliable.

He's basically the Vegeta of the Sonic Universe. Except worse because he doesn't just lag slightly behind Sonic or get slightly ahead of Sonic in power, sometimes he just doesn't show up at all. Like, I don't think he's shown up in a game since 2014, where he lost a fight to Sonic. And he doesn't exactly train or anything, so there is no reason to suspect he would gain any of Sonic's new abilities.

So yeah, maybe DB will use that argument, but it's not something I would assume. Though again, seriously, just watch Shadow vs Mewtwo to see what they'll give Shadow. He hasn't been in any games since than, his feats and stats should be pretty much the same.

[Rynjin]

A very quick Google search turns up that Shadow was absolutely in Sonic Forces, by the by.

Not that I've ever played it (maybe I'll watch a playthrough of it or something see if there's anything fun there for Shadow), but he was definitely in it. Though I dunno if there's anything cool there for Sonic OR Shadow. Wasn't the point of that game that your player character did all the hard work?

[Rater202]

.....except Nui is another one and she was stabbed in the eye: not cut in a perfectly symmetrical angle, which didn’t regrow.... so did Ryuko’s father try everything or stop at the first thing that worked?

That I don't have an answer for.

However, that took place six months before the start of the series.

Ryuko's own life-fiber abilities were activated becuase she was in a situation where she genuinely thought she would die and it was canonically several months between that and her waking up after falling into a stress coma from the combination of the reveals that her father wasn't who he said he was, her mother was a monster responsible for everyone's suffering, the revelation that she's essentially half monster, and having her heart ripped out of her chest and shown to her.

It's entirely possible that Nui's regenerative abilities didn't activate until Isshin put her eye out and only fully matured to nigh absolute levels later over time. It'd be consistent with how it worked with Ryuko.

[Forum Explorer]

A very quick Google search turns up that Shadow was absolutely in Sonic Forces, by the by.

Not that I've ever played it (maybe I'll watch a playthrough of it or something see if there's anything fun there for Shadow), but he was definitely in it. Though I dunno if there's anything cool there for Sonic OR Shadow. Wasn't the point of that game that your player character did all the hard work?

Well guess I'm wrong on that. It didn't show up in his wikipedia article at least.

[HolyDraconus]

That I don't have an answer for.

However, that took place six months before the start of the series.

Ryuko's own life-fiber abilities were activated becuase she was in a situation where she genuinely thought she would die and it was canonically several months between that and her waking up after falling into a stress coma from the combination of the reveals that her father wasn't who he said he was, her mother was a monster responsible for everyone's suffering, the revelation that she's essentially half monster, and having her heart ripped out of her chest and shown to her.

It's entirely possible that Nui's regenerative abilities didn't activate until Isshin put her eye out and only fully matured to nigh absolute levels later over time. It'd be consistent with how it worked with Ryuko.

But you can admit, given what’s known that her abilities were active, or the dad didn’t do a thorough research, since in both cases there really isn’t a lot of data to say either way, correct?

[Rater202]

But you can admit, given what’s known that her abilities were active, or the dad didn’t do a thorough research, since in both cases there really isn’t a lot of data to say either way, correct?

We know that after the fact, simply cutting Nui with the scissor blades wasn't enough to permanently harm her.

Hell, Ryuko had to not onl cut off her arms but absorb them into herself and/or Senketsu to even phase Nui.

So at he bare minimum Nui's powers are stronger during the series proper than during the flashback.

And I'm going to assume that 17 years that were solely dedicated to killing Life Fibers and stopping REVOCS is plenty of time for thorough research, and that's assuming that he started from scratch when he defected. For all we know he started researching the strengths and weaknesses of Life Fibers when he was still working for REVOCS.

Also, double-checking, Isshin putting out Nui's eye was the first time that Nui was ever seriously harmed in her life, so it being a situation where her powers were activated or enhanced by experiencing the fear of death like what happened with Ryuko is entirely plausible.

[Kitten Champion]

Well guess I'm wrong on that. It didn't show up in his wikipedia article at least.

I think because he's barely in the base game and not as a playable character. There's a fake Shadow among the evil bosses, the real Shadow shows up and beats him in rather unspectacular fashion, and that's it.

Then they brought him back with a DLC episode. Which, well, it's not anything to write home about.

You can watch the whole of it here, it's about 15 minutes. He kicks around the new stupid edgelord villain, I guess that's something?

[Lemmy]

All this discussion... And in the end, one of them will win for some bs like "this is Ryuko's narrative role" or "Shadow did this one thing once, despite being consistently being depicted as below that power level".

If we want to be accurate, Shadow should die in 2 hits... One to remove his rings, and a second one to finish him off.