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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    We know that after the fact, simply cutting Nui with the scissor blades wasn't enough to permanently harm her.

    Hell, Ryuko had to not onl cut off her arms but absorb them into herself and/or Senketsu to even phase Nui.

    So at he bare minimum Nui's powers are stronger during the series proper than during the flashback.

    And I'm going to assume that 17 years that were solely dedicated to killing Life Fibers and stopping REVOCS is plenty of time for thorough research, and that's assuming that he started from scratch when he defected. For all we know he started researching the strengths and weaknesses of Life Fibers when he was still working for REVOCS.

    Also, double-checking, Isshin putting out Nui's eye was the first time that Nui was ever seriously harmed in her life, so it being a situation where her powers were activated or enhanced by experiencing the fear of death like what happened with Ryuko is entirely plausible.
    And in the same boat it’s also plausible that her powers were active at the time it happened and the dad didn’t do thorough research and stopped at the first thing he tried that worked. I don’t see any proof that makes that statement false.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    And in the same boat it’s also plausible that her powers were active at the time it happened and the dad didn’t do thorough research and stopped at the first thing he tried that worked. I don’t see any proof that makes that statement false.
    If Isshin was wrong and stopped on the first thing that worked, then Ragyo and Nui would have died halfway through the series from being decapitated and stabbed through the chest respectively. Even if it was just the scissor blades that could do it, both Ragyo and Nui take would from the scissor blades that would have been fatal if that was all it took.

    Nui's eye being put out is an anomaly. It is an anomaly that we have an explanation for: Per Ryuko, it takes the fear that you are going to die to activate the healing factor, and Isshin putting out Nui's eye was literally the first time Nui had even been seriously injured.

    It is thus a plausible inference that Nui did not have her healing factor at that time.

    If your entire requires pointing to a singular anomaly, one that has a rational explanation, and saying "the scientist who spent the better part of two decades trying to figure out how to kill these things is wrong about the only way to kill these things" as support then your argument is wrong.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    If Isshin was wrong and stopped on the first thing that worked, then Ragyo and Nui would have died halfway through the series from being decapitated and stabbed through the chest respectively. Even if it was just the scissor blades that could do it, both Ragyo and Nui take would from the scissor blades that would have been fatal if that was all it took.

    Nui's eye being put out is an anomaly. It is an anomaly that we have an explanation for: Per Ryuko, it takes the fear that you are going to die to activate the healing factor, and Isshin putting out Nui's eye was literally the first time Nui had even been seriously injured.

    It is thus a plausible inference that Nui did not have her healing factor at that time.

    If your entire requires pointing to a singular anomaly, one that has a rational explanation, and saying "the scientist who spent the better part of two decades trying to figure out how to kill these things is wrong about the only way to kill these things" as support then your argument is wrong.
    Except for the better part of the first season ryuko was cutting life fibers with half a scissor blade. So it’s not an anomaly. Additionally, there’s no proof that the scientist did what YOU believe he did: he stumbled on an answer then started killing. No where was it stated he tried everything. It doesn’t even state how long between him finding an answer before he started killing. And lastly, there isn’t any proof that states something works better than being cut with scissors like motions. For all we know, since there’s no proof that it was tested, life fibers being hyper aged with time magic makes them brittle like coal.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Except for the better part of the first season ryuko was cutting life fibers with half a scissor blade.
    Objectively wrong.

    Ryuko was not cutting Life Fibers. she was cutting Goku Uniforms, which are composed of both life-fibers and ordinary fabric, and absorbing the life fibers that were in them after the uniforms were dstroyed.

    Even a 3 Star Goku uniform is only composed of 30% Life Fibers, the rest of it is ordinary cotton, wool, nylon, or whatever the hell the president of the sewing club made them out of.

    Furthermore, the kind of healing factor that Ryuko possesses, the only that can explicitly only be overcome by cutting the same point at the exact same time from both sides in a perfectly symmetrical angel, is only possessed buy complex organisms composed of a large number of full mature life fibers.

    This includes Ryuko, Ragyo, Nui, and the Primordial Lie Fiber but does not include Goku uniforms, Kamui, or the Covers.

    The Rending Shears were created to take out Ragyo, essentially. They're the best weapons to take out life fibers, but if you're dealing with simpler organisms there are other options.

    The Anime says that scissor motions are the only way to kill beings like Ryuko. There is no proof that the anime is wrong.

    You cannot assume that the ANime is wrong.

    This isn't a case of the anime providing facts that, collectively, add up to say that something from another show might not work. This is just you pretending that the anime is wrong to give the other side a chance to win.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-03-11 at 08:47 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Objectively wrong.

    Ryuko was not cutting Life Fibers. she was cutting Goku Uniforms, which are composed of both life-fibers and ordinary fabric, and absorbing the life fibers that were in them after the uniforms were dstroyed.

    Even a 3 Star Goku uniform is only composed of 30% Life Fibers, the rest of it is ordinary cotton, wool, nylon, or whatever the hell the president of the sewing club made them out of.

    Furthermore, the kind of healing factor that Ryuko possesses, the only that can explicitly only be overcome by cutting the same point at the exact same time from both sides in a perfectly symmetrical angel, is only possessed buy complex organisms composed of a large number of full mature life fibers.

    This includes Ryuko, Ragyo, Nui, and the Primordial Lie Fiber but does not include Goku uniforms, Kamui, or the Covers.

    The Rending Shears were created to take out Ragyo, essentially. They're the best weapons to take out life fibers, but if you're dealing with simpler organisms there are other options.

    The Anime says that scissor motions are the only way to kill beings like Ryuko. There is no proof that the anime is wrong.

    You cannot assume that the ANime is wrong.

    This isn't a case of the anime providing facts that, collectively, add up to say that something from another show might not work. This is just you pretending that the anime is wrong to give the other side a chance to win.
    Then show me where it says that Nui didn’t have her power, or her power wasn’t fully realized, to explain away why she was PERMANENTLY injured without the “only way to harm/kill them” method? Waiving away and saying “ anomaly” isn’t it. A life fiber is a life fiber. That part of the uniform under your own “rules” should still be intact and regenerating, regardless of how few strands were in it. 30% is a lot yet she was blowing that away. Seems like another “anomaly “.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Then show me where it says that Nui didn’t have her power, or her power wasn’t fully realized, to explain away why she was PERMANENTLY injured without the “only way to harm/kill them” method
    I don't have to, it's an conclusion drawn from evidence.

    Here are the facts of the matter.

    Nui had never been injured prior to having her eye put out.

    Every time Nui is injured after that point, the injuries regenerated, saving the removal of her arms and her suicide, The first of which involved Ryuko absorbing the arms specifically so they couldn't reattach and the second of which was Nui decapitating herself with a giant pair of scissors.

    Ryuko's own regenerative abilities did not kick in until Ragyo split her open and pulled out her heart. They explicitly manifested in this moment becuase Ryuko was terrified that she was about to die. Becuase Ryuko's heart was still attached, her healing factor pulled it back in.

    Now, we fall to inferences: Since every other instance of Nui being injured shows her regenerating, even injuries given by the same weapon that took her eye, and we know that a Life Fiber Hybrid's regeneration is not automatic but requires some kind of catalyst, it is a reasonable conclusion that Nui did not possess regenerative abilities at that time, but instead, the loss of her eye and the fact that she could be injured put a fear of death in her.

    This reasonable conclusion provides a plausible explanation for what amounts to a single statistical anomaly.

    Thus, we can reasonably disregard that anomaly when literally every other example of a life fiber hybrid who possessed a healing factor being injured required the scissoring method for the injuries to stick.

    Even without that reasonable explanation, you can't just say that that one sample disproves that Ryuko can be killed by methods other than the scissoring motion to her brain or heart... Ryuko has taken fatal injuries and shrugged them off.

    Ryuko has ripped her own skin off, been cut cleanly in half, and had most of her body impaled. If her presentation could be overcome by just hitting her with something fatal she would be dead.

    Also, I would like to repeat: Ryuko is not cutting the life fibers that compose a Goku Uniform. She is destroying the rest of the uniform and then absorbing the Goku Uniform's fibers.

    And, as Further repetition, Absolute Regeneration that can only be overcome by precisely timed scissoring motion is an emergent property. It is not a power possessed by individual fibers, but a power that manifests when multiple fully mature fibers are combined into a single complex organism.

    It's pretty much only Hybrids and the Primordial Life Fiber that have this power.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-03-11 at 11:07 PM.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I don't have to, it's an conclusion drawn from evidence.
    If there is evidence then show it. Show that she wasn't powered up. Show that he tried every method before coming to that result. You making leaps without it.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    If there is evidence then show it. Show that she wasn't powered up. Show that he tried every method before coming to that result. You making leaps without it.
    I did provide the evidence.

    I took the facts of the matter, which I listed out in my last post, and drew from them the conclusion that Nui did not possess regenerative powers at the time.

    This is what makes the most sense in the context of Nui having these regenerative powers after losing her eye.
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  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    If there is evidence then show it. Show that she wasn't powered up. Show that he tried every method before coming to that result. You making leaps without it.
    He's drawing a conclusion from the evidence we see in the show. We can see from Ryuko's experiences that the regeneration ability does change after traumatic events. We see that Nudist Beach worked with him, and they both have done a lot of research into anti-Life Fiber weaponry. We also see that he worked with Life Fibers for a large part of his life.

    Maybe he didn't try literally every method, but of all the methods he did try, he only found one that worked. I mean, maybe a nuclear bomb would cause permanent damage to Nui. It's not like he had a nuclear bomb to test that theory. But conventional bombs do basically nothing, and only whatever Satsuki's swords and the scissor blades proved to actually be able to hurt Nui, and most of the time, not even than.

    So from what we know, yes that's the only method that worked. We know as many methods were tested as possible. We're not 100% sure why that injury stuck with Nui. Rater's theory is as good as any, because Kill La Kill is not super consistent and runs on the rule of cool. And the old man taking out someone's eyes with a big pair of scissors is much cooler than her just regenerating it.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    This is getting a little ponderous, so I only have one question about the whole scissors thing. Are they made of any special plot device material, or is it just any old blade and the only rule is this "sImUlTaNeOuS cUtS" malarkey?

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Incidentally, while researching various feats I've noticed an example of energy attacks being used.

    During Ryuko's third fight with Nui, when Nui has both scissor blades, Nui channels energy into the blades and sends a huge X made of energy out against Ryuko as an attack.

    Ryuko casually lifting the back of her hand defects it. Not even a backhand, just... Raises her hand and that makes it go away.

    I'm not sure off the top of my head what the comparison between Nui's attack and Shadow's Chaos Energy attacks would be, but I'm gonna say that energy attacks aren't gonna be effective against Ryuko.

    Another thing: Junketsu being sewn back together after Ryuko rips it off using fibers donated by Senketsu, in order to make it more docile, has the side effect of giving it all of Senketsu's powers and unique adaptations.

    Ryuko and Senketsu have twice absorbed Life Fibers from Nui, who as I've mentioned has space-manipulation abilities. In addition to the aforementioned habit of compressing herself down to two dimensions, she can fit in spaces(including clothing) that are too small for her body to occupied. She can teleport, reach across vast distances, and just sort of float into space as if she's interacting with objects that aren't there.

    (these are conveyed to the audience as Forth Wall Gags, but she's still doing this in-universe and it's meant to be freaky.)

    Between Junketsu's example of flat out duplicating the powers of another life-fiber organism by absorbing some of its fibers, the Explicit statement that one life fiber organism can, with effort, replicate the abilities of another, and Senketsu's ability to spontaneously develop new forms and adaptations as needed, I'm going to say that using chaos Control to teleport Ryuko somewhere Dangerous won't work. While she can't teleport, it's entirely plausible that Senketsu would develop the ability if she needed it.

    It really comes down solely to whether or not Shadow can permanently time freeze Ryuko. If he can't do that then he's going to lose becuase Ryuko can just outlast him.

    Edit: The Scissors blades are made of hard and compressed life-fibers, while Bakuzan is made of an unknown but presumably synthetic metal alloy.

    However, it's not that you specifically need such things to cut life fibers, it's just that Life-Fibers are fricking durable. Even the weak, simplest immature life-fibers are much more durable than any substance that naturally occurs on earth.

    So, you need something ridiculously durable and very very sharp to be able to reliable cut them.

    It needing to be a blade specifically is an inference that, presumably, Isshin Matoi wouldn't have made his anti-life fiber weapon out of Life Fibers if lightsabers would work.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-03-12 at 03:35 AM.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delicious Taffy View Post
    This is getting a little ponderous, so I only have one question about the whole scissors thing. Are they made of any special plot device material, or is it just any old blade and the only rule is this "sImUlTaNeOuS cUtS" malarkey?
    They are made out of a special material. As are Satsuki's blades, though the scissor blades are made from a different material than Satsuki's blades.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    I cant believe that between the time I went to bed and the time I woke up this argument has gone on for 4 pages. I didnt think it was possible for anything but the two characters which must not be named to trigger such an incredible amount of rapid fire back and forth. I apologize if this was covered by the point i started to zone out but wanted to suggest this.

    1) Shadow stops time
    2) Shadow proceeds to mulch his opponent including heart and brains
    3) If the entire body is being torn apart into fragments its not impossible that two of those billions of buzz saw like cuts are at the exact same spot on opposite sides
    4) Time is stopped, so its all happening in the same instant

    Short of her going "My witchblade is the witchblade that pierces the heavens, thats just how team ichigo rolls! GO EMIYA!! Shock that rock type with THUNDER!" and ignoring time stop due to rule of cool ignoring whatever they want shenanigans, would this count as a valid cause of death?
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  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Short of her going "My witchblade is the witchblade that pierces the heavens, thats just how team ichigo rolls! GO EMIYA!! Shock that rock type with THUNDER!" and ignoring time stop due to rule of cool ignoring whatever they want shenanigans, would this count as a valid cause of death?
    Probably, the only particular sticking point would be the point four and the definition of “simultaneous” from the perspective of the cloth eldritch god in question. The other potential concern might be them going off the deep end and deciding that since it was a fictional metal used to harm the life fibers for one character Shadow can’t hurt her because he has never broken that fictional metal before. Only the steel or whatever Eggman uses for his robots. Or some other similar train of thought.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I cant believe that between the time I went to bed and the time I woke up this argument has gone on for 4 pages. I didnt think it was possible for anything but the two characters which must not be named to trigger such an incredible amount of rapid fire back and forth. I apologize if this was covered by the point i started to zone out but wanted to suggest this.

    1) Shadow stops time
    2) Shadow proceeds to mulch his opponent including heart and brains
    3) If the entire body is being torn apart into fragments its not impossible that two of those billions of buzz saw like cuts are at the exact same spot on opposite sides
    4) Time is stopped, so its all happening in the same instant

    Short of her going "My witchblade is the witchblade that pierces the heavens, thats just how team ichigo rolls! GO EMIYA!! Shock that rock type with THUNDER!" and ignoring time stop due to rule of cool ignoring whatever they want shenanigans, would this count as a valid cause of death?
    No.

    Even before her powers activated, Senketsu made Ryuko's flesh harder than steel. Liife Fibers, as I cited, are harder than any naturally occurring substances on Earth to the point that the only thing known for sure to reliably cut them is a blade made of compressed and hardened life fibers.

    By the end of the series a naked Ryuko falling from Space at terminal velocity was in now actual danger(she was caught before she hit the ground, but that was an act of affection, not necessity)

    End of Series Ryuko wearing end of Series Senketsu is just too durable for Shadow to hurt.

    Also, looking it up, the longer Shadow has ever frozen someone in time is 17 seconds. Even with how fast he moves I don't think that would is enough time to mulch her.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    So, basically the same logic they used in the Jotaro Kujo v. Kenshiro battle.

    Jotaro can freeze time as well, but Kenshiro's durability surpassed what Star Platinum could dish out and then he could counter-attack during whatever the cooldown period for the next time stop was.

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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    So, basically the same logic they used in the Jotaro Kujo v. Kenshiro battle.

    Jotaro can freeze time as well, but Kenshiro's durability surpassed what Star Platinum could dish out and then he could counter-attack during whatever the cooldown period for the next time stop was.
    Yeah, except without ignoring the fact that Kenshirou shouldn't have been able to hurt Jotaro either or the many ways that either party could have instantly killed the other.

    Because those aren't factors in this fight.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I cant believe that between the time I went to bed and the time I woke up this argument has gone on for 4 pages. I didnt think it was possible for anything but the two characters which must not be named to trigger such an incredible amount of rapid fire back and forth. I apologize if this was covered by the point i started to zone out but wanted to suggest this.

    1) Shadow stops time
    2) Shadow proceeds to mulch his opponent including heart and brains
    3) If the entire body is being torn apart into fragments its not impossible that two of those billions of buzz saw like cuts are at the exact same spot on opposite sides
    4) Time is stopped, so its all happening in the same instant

    Short of her going "My witchblade is the witchblade that pierces the heavens, thats just how team ichigo rolls! GO EMIYA!! Shock that rock type with THUNDER!" and ignoring time stop due to rule of cool ignoring whatever they want shenanigans, would this count as a valid cause of death?
    Well it breaks down like this:

    1) Sure, he can do that

    2) He might not be able to do that. Ryuko isn't like Wolverine who just has really good regeneration. She's more like Perfect Cell, insane durability, paired with even better regeneration. In his case, if you didn't kill a particular cell he'd come back full strength and better than ever, in her case, if you don't cut her up in a very specific way, she'll come back full strength. Kill La Kill is pretty over the top. Ryuko has tanked blows where the shock wave from the blow has shattered buildings and sent crowds flying. Without a anti-Life Fiber weapon, Shadow might not have enough power to even hurt Ryuko in the first place.

    3) Even if you do that, Ryuko can literally push her body back together. Even if it's her head that's been cut into pieces. Yes, life fiber hybrids can operate with their brain literally cut in half.
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    In short, this match-up is another "Pretty Strong Character vs. For All Intents And Purposes Invincible Character" episode, where the only similarities are strictly superficial. In this case, they both have black hair with red streaks and a bad attitude. It's like the Ben 10/Green Lantern fight, where they both wore green so good enough.

    As someone said previously, it's just another loss for Shadow.

  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delicious Taffy View Post
    In short, this match-up is another "Pretty Strong Character vs. For All Intents And Purposes Invincible Character" episode, where the only similarities are strictly superficial. In this case, they both have black hair with red streaks and a bad attitude. It's like the Ben 10/Green Lantern fight, where they both wore green so good enough.

    As someone said previously, it's just another loss for Shadow.
    There are more parallels between Ben and Hal then just that, but yea this is certainly one of those in general.
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  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    What Forum said.

    It's like... If Shadow was fighting Alucard from Hellsing. Shadow doesn't have the ability to completly destroy Alucard's body the three million-plus times it takes to make him not instantly regenerate.

    Or Perfect Cell, if you don't destroy his entire body down to the individual cells*, you can't beat him.

    Or Apocalypse. As an External, he can only be permanently killed by an External—they're like Highlanders. At best you can only drive him off or render him dormant.

    Ryuko is just one of those characters who can't die barring ludicrous overkill ora specific weakness and Shadow doesn't have enough Overkill or access to their specific weakness.

    *He makes the comment about the nucleus in his head but he's shown to be able to regenerate from having his head destroyed. My personal headcanon is that Cell doesn't need the nucleus to regenerate but instead, the nucleus garruntees it: It's a small organ full of stem cells or something designed to survive even if he triggers his own self destruct.
    Quote Originally Posted by Delicious Taffy View Post
    In short, this match-up is another "Pretty Strong Character vs. For All Intents And Purposes Invincible Character" episode, where the only similarities are strictly superficial. In this case, they both have black hair with red streaks and a bad attitude. It's like the Ben 10/Green Lantern fight, where they both wore green so good enough.

    As someone said previously, it's just another loss for Shadow.
    Not quite.

    Ryuko and Shadow are both hybrids of terrestrial and extraterrestrial organisms, with said extraterrestrial organisms being eldritch abominations that travel via asteroid and see sapient species as cattle which they intend to render helpless and then devour at their leisure as part of their life cycle. The creators of both Shadow and Ryuko made deals with these aliens and created their respective beings as an attempt to create an "Ultimate Life Form" and as a weapon to use as part of their deal with the hostile aliens. Both Shadow and Ryuko are rather prickly in personality and initially care more about their own goals than helping others, their acts of heroism being done becuase it was practical... Only to warm up to and become very loyal to a circle of friends.

    The main differences between them, other than powers, is that Ragyo never cared about Ryuko beyond her use as a weapon: Even though she's Ryuko's biological mother when it seemed like the experiments to turn Ryuko into a perfect hybrid killed the newborn child Ragyo just coldly dumped down a garbage chute. In comparison, Gerald Robotnick(Eggman's grandfather) created Shadow primarily to use him as a means of studying immortality to cure his grandaughter's terminal illness, he did value shadow as a person and Shadow's sibling-like relationship with Maria, said granddaughter, was encouraged.

    Gerald also had no intention of holding up his end of the bargain with the Dark Arms, his research being done for altruistic or personal reasons... Though he did slip into misanthropy and plot revenge on humanity when the government decided that his research was too dangerous, arrest him, seize most of his research, and murder his granddaughter for no apparent reason. And honestly, I can't blame the man. In his shoes, I'd do the same thing.

    In comparison, Ragyo knowingly and willingly sold out the human race for no reason other than her own total sociopathy to justify her utter hatred of humanity and was so dedicated to furthering the Life Fibers goals that when it became impossible to wipe out humanity and use the destruction of the earth to scatter countless life fibers across the universe(to restart the cycle elsewhere) she elected to kill herself and scatter her constituent life fibers instead as a small chance of victory rather than accept redemption. She did not care for an member of her family beyond their use as a means of wiping out humanity in favor of life fibers.
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  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Such a long and lively argument...We have to change topics to cool it down...

    So... Uh... Goku vs Superman, huh?
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  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Such a long and lively argument...We have to change topics to cool it down...

    So... Uh... Goku vs Superman, huh?
    Well, as of the conclusion of the Planet Eater Moro Arc of the Super Manga, Goku can access his perfected Ultra Instinct Form at will(he's also developed the ability to power up his Ultra Instinct sign form significantly, at the cost of losing access to the actual Ultra Instinct ability. It's a situational thing, sometimes being able to punch harder is more important than being able to dodge.) which might be usable with the perfected form In the current arc he's training with Whis to be able to better exist in and maintain that state.

    And to increase its precision: Ultra Instinct is nominally about perfect moments, Whis' UI is superior to Goku's ad Goku can't keep up with Whis at this time.

    BEcuase Goku's Autonomous Ultra Instinct State not only gives him the Ultra Instinct ability but also increases his power level beyond that of his Kaiken X200 augmented Super Saiyan Blue state and seemingly magnifies his Saiyan power to the point that he gains permanently increases in skill, speed, and power just by existing in this state, I do believe that the ability to access it at will would guarantee his win against superman.

    He should have won the first and second times, DB drastically screwed up their math on Goku's speed, ignored vital context about most of Goku's feats, and possibly deliberately misinterpreted the scene of Superman outracinginf the supernova, but Ultra Instinct would sinch it. It's Goku at a point when he's potentially hundreds of times stronger than he was when he was at risk of shaking the universe apart and as a nigh-perfect fighter whose constantly getting better and stronger.
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  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    After Ben10 vs GL, G vs SM isn't even the most egregious DB match... Hahaha..
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  25. - Top - End - #205
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Yeah, I think that one will go down in infamy as possibly the worst DB take of all time.

  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    I don't know, I feel vexed by the ones where they think they've arrived at a clever conclusion and work backwards from it. Toph v Gaara and Wonder Woman v. Rogue being the two I'd point to.

    With WW v. Rogue, it was the "she doesn't wear pants!" thing. While with Toph v. Gaara it was the whole "Toph can perceive material floating around her!" gambit. Both feel like they were something we were supposed to be all "the audience activated our trap card!" about.

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    I dunno, I think I like flash versus quicksilver for most openly lopsided match of all time. They couldnt even honestly pretend like quicksilver had a chance. They might as well have put the flash against usain bolt for all the chance the other speedster had. At least with the matches where we feel they royally messed up we can talk about it, debate it, argue our stance. That one? There is nothing to talk about. Peak Flash versus peak Quicksilver is basically God versus Ant. But yeah, wonder woman versus rogue and toph versus garra are probably the two best cases of them blatantly ignoring speed and power feats to determine a winner in a gross violation of their own internal logic in favor of a stupid trick that wouldnt actually matter.
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  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    After Ben10 vs GL, G vs SM isn't even the most egregious DB match... Hahaha..
    I mean, Goku vs Superman has actually wrong math.

    They divided by 2 when they should have multiplied by 50, claimed to be multiplying by 50, when calculating Goku's speed.

    GL vs Ben 10 was stupid becuase they ignored the fact that Ben as Alien X has tanked more energy than Green Lantern can output and that the Omnitrix will automatically transform Ben to save his life, but Goku vs Superman has similar bad rulings and misaplication of facts plus actual cheating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I dunno, I think I like flash versus quicksilver for most openly lopsided match of all time. They couldnt even honestly pretend like quicksilver had a chance. They might as well have put the flash against usain bolt for all the chance the other speedster had. At least with the matches where we feel they royally messed up we can talk about it, debate it, argue our stance. That one? There is nothing to talk about. Peak Flash versus peak Quicksilver is basically God versus Ant. But yeah, wonder woman versus rogue and toph versus garra are probably the two best cases of them blatantly ignoring speed and power feats to determine a winner in a gross violation of their own internal logic in favor of a stupid trick that wouldnt actually matter.
    Here's the thing, there was literally no need to do Flash vs Quicksilver.

    Marvel and DC settled that one canonically in the 2003-2004 miniseries JLA/Avengers

    Canonically, Quicksilver is faster but the Speed Force allows Flash to magnify his speed many times over his "natural" limits making him faster in practice. Flash won in his native universe, but when they rematched in the Marvel Universe the Flash lost becuase he wasn't able to augment himself with Speed Force.

    So, the answer to who wins in Flash vs Quicksilver is, canonically, "it depends on which universe they're in."
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  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I dunno, I think I like flash versus quicksilver for most openly lopsided match of all time. They couldnt even honestly pretend like quicksilver had a chance. They might as well have put the flash against usain bolt for all the chance the other speedster had. At least with the matches where we feel they royally messed up we can talk about it, debate it, argue our stance. That one? There is nothing to talk about. Peak Flash versus peak Quicksilver is basically God versus Ant. But yeah, wonder woman versus rogue and toph versus garra are probably the two best cases of them blatantly ignoring speed and power feats to determine a winner in a gross violation of their own internal logic in favor of a stupid trick that wouldnt actually matter.
    I think most lopsided goes to Thor vs Raiden.
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  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

    I kind of give them a pass on Flash vs QS because the characters are thematically appropriate and not everyone is familiar with the feats and limits of both characters.

    GvsSM is just plain bias... But even with they getting a lot of things wrong, there's at least a case to be made that Superman is indeed stronger than Goku (I disagree, but it isn't an absurd claim).

    Ben10 vs GL, they ignore even the stuff that is mentioned by themselves! And clearly had no interest in researching or accurately representing Ben10 with any real effort... Since their bias was just as blatant as in the GvsSM match.

    But the "Audience activated our trap card" point is also pretty good... There are indeed matches where it's clear they think they are way more clever than they actually are.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2021-03-13 at 05:43 PM.

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