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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hrožila View Post
    I think Serini only looks Evil if you really try to spin absolutely everything in as negative a light as possible.
    I don't think anyone is trying to say 'she is definitely evil' but The Giant has had her take a few actions that are questionable (but easily overlooked) and a few non-actions which are also questionable and could be setting the stage for a reveal that she is Evil - more likely not in my opinion but it could be what he is setting up, a few minorish easily overlooked items before the reveal of her terrible plans kindof thing.

    Seperately on why Xykon sparred her? He might have attacked her because she was there and he was bored and had no idea who she was and stole her diary just to mock her and get a potential chuckle at some light reading - only to find out it was relevant to him at a later time when he got bored and cracked it open and saw references to Lirian.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Let's assume it was truly necessary for her to capture them. That crazy paladin at the beginning did the same, for similar reasons (she thought they were a threat to gate she was sworn to guard), and I think it has since been acknowledged that that was not a good act (although not sufficient to make her fall all by itself). And to be clear, she did kidnap them - the word doesn't require a ransom, it only requires you to take someone against their will. If you saw people lurking outside your home, thought they might be a threat to your home, drugged them, kidnapped (or captured if you prefer) them, imprisoned them for a time, and then released them, that's criminal in most jursidictions.
    Serini has reason to consider the Tomb her own jurisdiction, though, which enables her to treat lurking around it armed and with the explicit intent of locating the Gate a crime and dealing with the armed group as apprehending criminals. Also, if law enforcement officers were to use tranquilizer darts to temporarily neutralize armed and potentially dangerous individuals they intend to arrest, that would not be Evil and definitely not more Evil than using more violent methods and harming or risking to harm the subjects. Not to mention that she intends to release them once she ensures they cease to be a threat to the Gate and her amnesia potion explicitly does not make them lose all their memories, their personality &c.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Robots View Post
    ...I was just saying I found it disturbing. I'm not measuring it against other stuff in the comic. I think that's just because of the... visible flesh.

    I have to say that while I tend to avoid excessively gory stuff on TV etc. (e.g. watched Dredd the other night and while it wasn't disturbing as such, I'd have preferred a little less), the gore level on Serini's wounds simply didn't register with me as disturbing in any way...

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    I find it a bit annoying how everybody in the OotSverse seems to treat Paladins with contempt...
    Rich apparently has an issue with Paladins (or perhaps how they are sometimes played), as do a striking number of contributors to this forum. But if it's the "OoTSverse" signals you find annoying, that's his voice speaking. On the bright side, and I am very glad he has done this narratively, he decided to model what he thinks a good paladins looks like and thereby offers us Lien, Hinjo, and O-Chul as examples of "Paladin can be done correctly". And he's done it well.

    Miko's the extreme case of "if you are going to paladin, please don't do this"

    That the rest of the Scribblers were likely selfish adventurers may also reflect Rich's experience with playing D&D over the years - hard to say.
    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Wrt speech color scheme: Imo, a copper dragon's temperament would fit perfectly with Serini. But I'm sorta attached to my first thought: "What happens if a red dragon and a gold dragon love each other very much?"
    I'll surmise that The Pointer Sisters have the answer to this:
    When we kiss, fire!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    It'd be an easier sell if she had the claws that the template grants, though.
    Wait, have you seen her toe nails? No close up yet, so perhaps ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lex View Post
    ...but if Serenity had, say, a +6 epic armor, that alone would have been worth a fortune (360000 gold coins, if I remember correctly the rules) while being too impractical for him to pick.
    Good example.
    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    I get the feeling Lirian was the only one on good relations with Soon Kim though I suspect perhaps Kraagor was all right with him (if mainly because they were both tanks and he'd respect that about Soon being on the front with him).
    Seems to fit what little we know. The picture of angry Scribblers is Soon(Martial/Paladin), Girard (Caster) and Dorukan (Caster) - not sure if that was a deliberate gesture to the martial/caster split in 3.5, Tier wise.
    Girard I got the feeling that he's a hypocrite.
    I get the impression that Girard was a bit of an arrogant, albeit charismatic, jerk. Hypocrite proably fits into that box.
    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    I wonder how Serini will take the news, if O-Chul tells her about the last moments of Soon's gate. And I wonder if the Giant has been shuttling their threads toward each other in his tapestry for such a moment.
    Hopefully we'll find out.
    Quote Originally Posted by ebarde View Post
    and we've seen time and time again that spellcasters think very little of martials and that might extent to even epic level ones.
    Eugene being the finest example of that sentiment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Scolding for assuming selfish motives, probably not. But hitting someone for making a reasonable guess which was wrong (or at least Serini thinks so), is probably slightly evil.
    Not hardly. It's slapstick. I refer you to the Three Stooges and The Marx Brothers, as well as Bob Sagat (referred to in-comic by Belkar).
    I have a very hard time with the far-too-common propensity to pigeon hole something as "evil" on the slightest pretext in this discussion forum. Perhaps it's an artifact of the 3.5e origin of the strip.
    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    What if the unexpected ally is the Dragon Troll that Tenrin killed? D:
    That would be really neat, and IIRC that troll is from up north ... given that it dwelt not far from Firmanent.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    I think Xykon didn't finish off Serini because he has no attention span. He got the diary and said his one-liner, so no reason for him hang around and get bored.
    I also love how the Giant shows the lawful-chaotic dynamic. I don't think Serini is evil, but she definitely likes messing around with paladins and bending the rules. And O-Chul is just as noble as ever, which puts him in contrast to most other paladins.
    The way the Giant displays the nuances of alignment is one of my favorite things about OOTS. "This strip (especially "it's the struggle that matters")" is probably the best advice I could give a player about how to handle alignment with their character.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm going to propose that Serini may fall into the trope of "does evil stuff with the best intentions". She intends to defend her Gate, and the end justifies the means.
    What that implies for her alignment is an interesting D&D discussion. Are you judged (by deities with knowledge of your thoughts and soul) by your actions, or by your intentions?
    And we saw at the end that Miko, perhaps, gained a measure of redemption. She was going to be with Windstriker, after all, per word of Soon. She was so very wrong about so many things, and fell quite hard, but in the end: I don't think the Paladins would usher her to the Lower Planes. Neutral planes, maybe.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    But hitting someone for making a reasonable guess which was wrong (or at least Serini thinks so), is probably slightly evil.
    When Rafiki hits Simba with his stick, is that an evil act?

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorSarda View Post
    When Rafiki hits Simba with his stick, is that an evil act?
    Why why why why are these discussions always about women?

    Miko, Hilgya, Bandana, Oona, and now... Serini.

    I swear, if we find out that MitD identifies as female in the same panel she eats Xykon, the argument about whether she’s good or evil is going to spin so hard we risk collapsing the universe into a singularity.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    I think Oona could be Evil, though nowhere near some of the other villains like Xykon or Tarquin(or even Tsukiko, really), but my guess is that the Serini discussion is less about her being a woman and more about her being partly monstrous now and being friends with monsters.

    And remember, people have repeatedly tried to argue that monstrous beings in D&D must be inherently Evil despite Rich flat-out saying that it's not the case in OotS to their face.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Gotta love Serini trolling the paladins

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    And remember, people have repeatedly tried to argue that monstrous beings in D&D must be inherently Evil despite Rich flat-out saying that it's not the case in OotS to their face.
    Frankly, the page reads like Serini bonking Lien for thinking that.
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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    I think Xykon didn't finish off Serini because he has no attention span. He got the diary and said his one-liner, so no reason for him hang around and get bored.
    Clearly it shows how Xykon is in fact Chaotic Good and just plain misunderstood for the last 1200 or so comics.

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dane View Post
    Gotta love Serini trolling the paladins
    Best. Line. Ever.
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  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dane View Post
    Gotta love Serini trolling the paladins
    She's a rogue, how could she resist the temptation? (Full disclosure; before the WoTC era, I played an inordinate number of thieves and rogues, and no few of them were halflings).
    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    Clearly it shows how Xykon is in fact Chaotic Good and just plain misunderstood for the last 1200 or so comics.
    Chaotic I'll get behind ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    Frankly, the page reads like Serini bonking Lien for thinking that.
    I am so glad that, considering the quarterstaff in Serini's hand, you did not add an extraneous "i" to that word ...
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-02-26 at 09:55 AM.
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  15. - Top - End - #195
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I am so glad that, considering the quarterstaff in Serini's hand, you did not add an extraneous "i" to that word ...
    That woud send a mixed message. You don't want to do that when training your attack dogs paladins not to racist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari
    Also this isn’t D&D, flaming the troll doesn’t help either.

  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Why why why why are these discussions always about women?

    Miko, Hilgya, Bandana, Oona, and now... Serini.

    I swear, if we find out that MitD identifies as female in the same panel she eats Xykon, the argument about whether she’s good or evil is going to spin so hard we risk collapsing the universe into a singularity.
    Considering he bans females from his club, that would cut attendance dramatically.
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Why why why why are these discussions always about women?

    Miko, Hilgya, Bandana, Oona, and now... Serini.

    I swear, if we find out that MitD identifies as female in the same panel she eats Xykon, the argument about whether she’s good or evil is going to spin so hard we risk collapsing the universe into a singularity.
    Hilgya is not believed to be Evil by many because she's a woman. She is believed to be Evil because of things like trying to kill his somewhat dim-witted but loving husband, only refraining from murdering her entire family because the smoke would have been bad for her child, killing Durkon and being the very enthusiastic cleric of an Evil deity.
    Oona is not believed to be Evil by many because she's a woman. She is believed to be Evil because of having all kinds of fun working with two very obviously Evil dudes and her first reaction to spotting two random humans miles away from her village was basically "Cool! I'll murder them both and feed them to a monster!"
    Miko was never truly Evil for a moment, but I can see why people wanted to view her as such – not for being a woman, mind you, but for being essentially unlikable.
    I'm also yet to see people arguing that Xykon, Redcloak, Nale, the Directors, Bozzok, Qarr or Kubota are Good or Neutral in droves just because they are male. Heck, Jirix is often theorized to be a lot more bad than he probably actually is.

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCat View Post
    I'm not saying it's uncharacteristic of Xykon, but it does seem incredibly careless to pull a scry-and-die on an epic level adventurer whose entire life mission is to thwart your goals of capturing a gate, and not even make sure you've killed her.
    I'll go one step farther. It doesn't make sense at all that Serini was left for dead by Xykon, and I think more likely, she found a way to escape, as per Start of Darkness spoilers:

    Spoiler: SoD
    Show
    We now know that Xykon's attack of Serini happened after Lirian's Gate fell. When he attacked her, he was a Lich, and Xykon became a Lich in order to survive his and Redcloak's first failed attempt at taking Lirian's Gate.

    Once Lirian died, Xykon trapped her soul in the Gem.

    He did this again with Dorukan, which implies he sought out a very expensive gem in order to keep soul trapping certain epic characters he considered actually threatening, like each of the Scribble members.

    We also know that the attack on Serini happened after Lirian's death, but before Dorukan's, as after Xykon won that battle, they entrenched themselves at Redmountain Hills, in Dorukan's dungeon, at which point, the events of the comic begin. That means that when Xykon attacked Serini, only Lirian was in his pocket, so her soul should have been able to fit inside the gem if she were of a similar level to Dorukan.

    Xykon must know that Serini, being an epic level rogue, and in the same party as both Lirian and Dorukan, that she has ways of being as threatening as them, if not directly herself, then certainly indirectly- an epic level rogue is still going to have resources, magic items, and allies as ways of dealing with a lich. She also probably has ways of at least warning her former party members that a threat is going after each of them, as far as he knows.

    So I find it rather unlikely that Xykon did not try to ensure she was dead, and then attempt to Soul Bind her, just like he did with Lirian, unless well, he's an idiot. If you're going to start trapping the souls of Scribble party members, why would you not trap the soul of every party member you kill, if you're afraid of resurrection spells?


    We also already know that Serini doesn't seem to trust the Paladins enough that she's openly telling them that she's happy to lie to them, so it's probable that there's more to this story than she's willing to tell.

    Based on Xykon's perspective though, I definitely think the evidence points more to her escaping from him somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I kindof wonder if Serini might be evil.
    Hitting defenceless prisoners and providing them with false hope of freedom doesn't exactly scream 'good' at any rate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stone of Light View Post
    Eh, I'm going to argue Chaotic Neutral at most. In regards to the hit:

    1. The arc of the swing was rather short.
    2. There's no battle damage on Lien in the last panel.

    So, it seems like a more playful gesture than anything.
    That, and if she were Evil, why not just kill the paladins, then? Paladins and Evil characters don't really mix well when it comes to mutual goals, by design. Unless she's lying outright about her amnesia potion, she has no reason to keep these two pesky paladins alive and out of her way when she can just kill them. She's still an Epic character; paladins aren't really a threat to her.

    Instead, Serini's giving me a lot of Haley vibes: she doesn't trust Soon and his guard, but doesn't want them dead (unlike Girard), even with their gate destroyed. She just wants them out of the way- and isn't the type of person who wants to use violence in order to accomplish that, even though she is probably more than capable of it. She's happy to lie and not be honest with them, which does point to Chaotic, as Rogues in this comic typically are- but if she's at least being honest about what her potion does, it means she has compunctions against needlessly slaughtering paladins, which probably points to Good, or Neutral at worst.
    Last edited by RickDaily12; 2021-02-26 at 10:40 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RickDaily12 View Post
    I'll go one step farther. It doesn't make sense at all that Serini was left for dead by Xykon, and I think more likely, she found a way to escape, as per Start of Darkness spoilers:

    Spoiler: SoD
    Show
    We now know that Xykon's attack of Serini happened after Lirian's Gate fell. When he attacked her, he was a Lich, and Xykon became a Lich in order to survive his and Redcloak's first failed attempt at taking Lirian's Gate.

    Once Lirian died, Xykon trapped her soul in the Gem.

    He did this again with Dorukan, which implies he sought out a very expensive gem in order to keep soul trapping certain epic characters he considered actually threatening, like each of the Scribble members.

    We also know that the attack on Serini happened after Lirian's death, but before Dorukan's, as after Xykon won that battle, they entrenched themselves at Redmountain Hills, in Dorukan's dungeon, at which point, the events of the comic begin. That means that when Xykon attacked Serini, only Lirian was in his pocket, so her soul should have been able to fit inside the gem if she were of a similar level to Dorukan.

    Xykon must know that Serini, being an epic level rogue, and in the same party as both Lirian and Dorukan, that she has ways of being as threatening as them, if not directly herself, then certainly indirectly- an epic level rogue is still going to have resources, magic items, and allies as ways of dealing with a lich. She also probably has ways of at least warning her former party members that a threat is going after each of them, as far as he knows.

    So I find it rather unlikely that Xykon did not try to ensure she was dead, and then attempt to Soul Bind her, just like he did with Lirian, unless well, he's an idiot. If you're going to start trapping the souls of Scribble party members, why would you not trap the soul of every party member you kill, if you're afraid of resurrection spells?
    As was mentioned above, he simply may not have thought of Serini as a credible threat since she's not a caster. Also, he may have further dismissed her since she's a halfling.

    Spoiler: SoD
    Show
    Also, is it possible he gets some advantage out of soul-binding casters, similar to the soul splice the Fiends gave to V? In which case there wouldn't be much point in binding her soul.
    Last edited by One Skunk Todd; 2021-02-26 at 10:44 AM.
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  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by One Skunk Todd View Post
    As was mentioned above, he simply may not have thought of Serini as a credible threat since she's not a caster. Also, he may have further dismissed her since she's a halfling.
    As a friend of mine put it, "What danger is a class whose primary feature I am immune to?"

    Spoiler: SoD
    Show
    Also, is it possible he gets some advantage out of soul-binding casters, similar to the soul splice the Fiends gave to V? In which case there wouldn't be much point in binding her soul.
    Spoiler: SoD
    Show
    Soul Bind prevents her allies from resurrecting her, and also him Soul Binding Lirian and Dorukan was more spite than anything else.

    Also I do wonder if Serini will ever learn that.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RickDaily12 View Post
    Spoiler: SoD
    Show
    We now know that Xykon's attack of Serini happened after Lirian's Gate fell. When he attacked her, he was a Lich, and Xykon became a Lich in order to survive his and Redcloak's first failed attempt at taking Lirian's Gate.
    Strictly speaking we knew this before:
    Spoiler: SoD
    Show
    Neither Xykon nor Red Cloak (or even The Dark One apparently) knew there were multiple gates until Lirian accidentally let it slip in her fight with Xykon (they knew of Lirian's gate from The Dark One, who lost a follower to it when it was an open rift). Xykon only set out to discover more information about the other gates after that.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post



    Spoiler: SoD
    Show


    Also I do wonder if Serini will ever learn that.
    It could be something in the epilogue. They loot his corpse and find said item.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I kindof wonder if Serini might be evil.
    Hitting defenceless prisoners and providing them with false hope of freedom doesn't exactly scream 'good' at any rate.
    Nah, she's just being a bit of a troll.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Seeing as this thread is devolved into an alignment argument, could I throw my hat in to suggest Serini is True Cranky or Chaotic Justifiably-Embittered?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ploppy View Post
    Re: Why didn't Xykon bother to soul trap Serini...

    Spoiler
    Show
    In SoD Xykon only seems to bother casting that spell to spite people who frustrated him, Lirian for trapping him and from his point of view costing him his life, and Dorukan after that long siege and giving him a Wizard > Sorceror lecture.
    Spoiler: SoD
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    She didn't just cost him his life...she cost him the taste of coffee, too.


    Quote Originally Posted by hroĆ¾ila View Post
    I think Serini only looks Evil if you really try to spin absolutely everything in as negative a light as possible.
    You must be new here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Is it possible that you may be coming from the starting assumption that Serini is not evil...
    snip
    No, I'm looking at the facts as they are presented. The Scribblers broke up on bad terms. They all agreed to go their separate ways. Whatever their own oath to themselves, the paladins have violated that agreement, and Serini is taking non-evil actions to defend the gate as she sees fit -- including the removal of several blundering paladins in clanky armor who could easily muck up her plans.

    • Serini is not evil for refusing help from people she deems unqualified. Roy did the same thing to the CPPD.
    • Serini is not evil for refusing to listen to their full arguments: life doesn't work like a courtroom, and you don't have the inalienable right to plead your entire case. Roy tells people to shut up all the time.
    • Serini is not evil for capturing people on "her territory" with a harmless sleeping poison, wiping their memories, and releasing them uninjured. Shojo's behavior to maintain secrecy was far more objectionable.
    • Serini is not evil for lying to paladins. Roy, Shojo, Haley, Elan...the list goes on.
    • Serini is not evil for bonking someone on the head.


    If you want to posit that she is non-Good based on this info, go ahead. Argue until the cows come home. I probably disagree, but I have no interest in that argument. But there is zero evidence -- yes, exactly zero -- to even suggest she is Evil.

    There's a great quote from Rich about why Haley is not evil for using deception and trickery -- because what matters is why she uses those skills. To enrich herself? Or to protect others? Being Good or even Neutral does not mean following all the rules of polite social interaction...you're thinking of Lawful. Which Serini most definitely is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorSarda View Post
    When Rafiki hits Simba with his stick, is that an evil act?
    Exactly, thank you. Rude does not equal evil.

  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    Frankly, the page reads like Serini bonking Lien for thinking that.
    I don't think Lien necessarily assumed they were Evil, though she did seem to assume it was a more selfish motivation.(Note: selfish=/=Evil. Of course Evil often is selfish.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Hilgya is not believed to be Evil by many because she's a woman. She is believed to be Evil because of things like trying to kill his somewhat dim-witted but loving husband, only refraining from murdering her entire family because the smoke would have been bad for her child, killing Durkon and being the very enthusiastic cleric of an Evil deity.
    Oona is not believed to be Evil by many because she's a woman. She is believed to be Evil because of having all kinds of fun working with two very obviously Evil dudes and her first reaction to spotting two random humans miles away from her village was basically "Cool! I'll murder them both and feed them to a monster!"
    Miko was never truly Evil for a moment, but I can see why people wanted to view her as such – not for being a woman, mind you, but for being essentially unlikable.
    I'm also yet to see people arguing that Xykon, Redcloak, Nale, the Directors, Bozzok, Qarr or Kubota are Good or Neutral in droves just because they are male. Heck, Jirix is often theorized to be a lot more bad than he probably actually is.
    I've heard of people arguing that Tarquin must be non-Evil, but I've never actually seen that and I don't think that anything to do whatsoever with his gender. And I don't think the Serini thing does either; it's likely more about her more monstrous appearance and being friendly with monstrous beings.

    (Also fallen heroes and turning ugly when becoming evil are hardly uncommon tropes either, so that didn't probably help much.)

    Quote Originally Posted by RickDaily12 View Post
    I'll go one step farther. It doesn't make sense at all that Serini was left for dead by Xykon, and I think more likely, she found a way to escape, as per Start of Darkness spoilers:

    Spoiler: SoD
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    We now know that Xykon's attack of Serini happened after Lirian's Gate fell. When he attacked her, he was a Lich, and Xykon became a Lich in order to survive his and Redcloak's first failed attempt at taking Lirian's Gate.

    Once Lirian died, Xykon trapped her soul in the Gem.

    He did this again with Dorukan, which implies he sought out a very expensive gem in order to keep soul trapping certain epic characters he considered actually threatening, like each of the Scribble members.

    We also know that the attack on Serini happened after Lirian's death, but before Dorukan's, as after Xykon won that battle, they entrenched themselves at Redmountain Hills, in Dorukan's dungeon, at which point, the events of the comic begin. That means that when Xykon attacked Serini, only Lirian was in his pocket, so her soul should have been able to fit inside the gem if she were of a similar level to Dorukan.

    Xykon must know that Serini, being an epic level rogue, and in the same party as both Lirian and Dorukan, that she has ways of being as threatening as them, if not directly herself, then certainly indirectly- an epic level rogue is still going to have resources, magic items, and allies as ways of dealing with a lich. She also probably has ways of at least warning her former party members that a threat is going after each of them, as far as he knows.

    So I find it rather unlikely that Xykon did not try to ensure she was dead, and then attempt to Soul Bind her, just like he did with Lirian, unless well, he's an idiot. If you're going to start trapping the souls of Scribble party members, why would you not trap the soul of every party member you kill, if you're afraid of resurrection spells?


    We also already know that Serini doesn't seem to trust the Paladins enough that she's openly telling them that she's happy to lie to them, so it's probable that there's more to this story than she's willing to tell.

    Based on Xykon's perspective though, I definitely think the evidence points more to her escaping from him somehow.
    As I have said already in this thread, him binding Lirian and Dorukan was mostly out of spite, rather than practicality. Plus, he's immune to Serini's primary class feature, and he may not have known at all about the other Scribblers before getting her diary.

    That, and if she were Evil, why not just kill the paladins, then? Paladins and Evil characters don't really mix well when it comes to mutual goals, by design. Unless she's lying outright about her amnesia potion, she has no reason to keep these two pesky paladins alive and out of her way when she can just kill them. She's still an Epic character; paladins aren't really a threat to her.

    Instead, Serini's giving me a lot of Haley vibes: she doesn't trust Soon and his guard, but doesn't want them dead (unlike Girard), even with their gate destroyed. She just wants them out of the way- and isn't the type of person who wants to use violence in order to accomplish that, even though she is probably more than capable of it. She's happy to lie and not be honest with them, which does point to Chaotic, as Rogues in this comic typically are- but if she's at least being honest about what her potion does, it means she has compunctions against needlessly slaughtering paladins, which probably points to Good, or Neutral at worst.
    There could hypothetically be reasons why an Evil person wouldn't necessarily want or need the paladins dead ASAP, but yeah I think your analysis is good enough.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    I get the feeling Lirian was the only one on good relations with Soon Kim though I suspect perhaps Kraagor was all right with him (if mainly because they were both tanks and he'd respect that about Soon being on the front with him).
    My head canon is it is Kraagor who would have been the most effectiveness spokesperson on behalf of Soon about his own death, but, alas, he was not available. A dwarf barbarian would likely seen anyone willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with him against great danger to be worthy of all benefit of the doubt.

    The fact that a Paladin could more easily jump clear of the Rift Sealing spell than a Barbarian (due to differences in saving throws) would be but a minor detail in Kraagor's eyes, because men of action do not quibble over what Fate holds in store for the courageous. Of course, to the surviving comrades who witnessed the full tragedy unfold right before their eyes, they might tell themselves that Soon could easily foresee the result -- that Soon himself would likely live and Kraagor would likely die, and that was an important factor in Soon's choice.

    I would further add it is quite conceivable that both Soon and Kraagor had insight that the other Scribblers did not, due to the "benefit" of standing toe-to-toe with the appendage of the Snarl himself: that the Snarl was fighting harder than ever to keep this one last Rift open, and the quest might well fail if not sealed immediately. There might be a very good reason that Soon ordered the Rift to be sealed immediately, rather than trying a more cautious approach if this attempt might not be working.

  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dane View Post
    Gotta love Serini trolling the paladins
    I made that joke, but someone wrecked it.

  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Hilgya is not believed to be Evil by many because she's a woman. She is believed to be Evil because of things like trying to kill his somewhat dim-witted but loving husband, only refraining from murdering her entire family because the smoke would have been bad for her child, killing Durkon and being the very enthusiastic cleric of an Evil deity.
    Oona is not believed to be Evil by many because she's a woman. She is believed to be Evil because of having all kinds of fun working with two very obviously Evil dudes and her first reaction to spotting two random humans miles away from her village was basically "Cool! I'll murder them both and feed them to a monster!"
    Miko was never truly Evil for a moment, but I can see why people wanted to view her as such – not for being a woman, mind you, but for being essentially unlikable.
    I'm also yet to see people arguing that Xykon, Redcloak, Nale, the Directors, Bozzok, Qarr or Kubota are Good or Neutral in droves just because they are male. Heck, Jirix is often theorized to be a lot more bad than he probably actually is.
    I think you are missing the point. It's not that some posters associate women with evil and men with good it's that women tend to come into much harsher scrutiny than their male counterparts. You say that no-one is arguing that Xykon, Redcloak, Nale, the Directors, Bozzok, Qarr or Kubota are Good or Neutral but all of these people are villains while Hilgya, Serini, Andy or Miko are more allies to the heroes or neutral (on the antagonist_protagonist spectrum, not the alignment grid). A better comparison would be asking where are all the people calling Ian evil for initially wanting to kill Elan, stealing from a the rich and (only after a the death of his wife) giving 20% to the poor after expenses and wanting to charge Roy for the potion he gave him while fighting a raging madman, the people calling Eugene evil for not caring about his family, causing Eric's death suggesting mass suicide to solve the dwarves' problem, calling Julio evil for destroying the defenses of a major city without any real reason or thought to the consequences or calling the Oracle evil for his anti-mamal prejudice, worship of Tiamat and routine use of memory altering magic (hey that last one reminds me of someone). Hell, there are still a lot of people calling Loki Neutral after he made it clear that, if it weren't for his survival he would gladly help Hel enslave and taorture millions of dwarves so that she could set herself up as a dark queen in the next world and rain undeath all over the future Northern Continent.

    This phenomenon of women being held to harsher standards than men isn't particular to this forum or fandom, either. It's very common to see women criticized or insulted for actions or attitudes men get a pass for or are even praised for in most fandoms, for examples Skyler White from Breaking Bad is often called the worst character of the show for the crime of not being supportive enough of her husband's drug trafficking! And that's to say nothing of how real women are treated.
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  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

    Didn't take O-Chul for the type to talk about losing the closest thing the trolls had to a non-troll friend in such a detached manner. "A cost that couldn't be recouped by selling magic items" sounds like a Rand fanatic trying to justify his altruistic impulses.
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