OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogar Demonblud]

Since people have been getting philosophical, does anyone know where to find Rich's article about the two evil overlords who knew each other since childhood and were friends in spite of it making no sense?

It seems relevant.

The game design stuff got stripped out during the site rebuild last year. Most of them had gone months without a click as I understand it, so they were cleaned out.

[KorvinStarmast]

The game design stuff got stripped out during the site rebuild last year. Most of them had gone months without a click as I understand it, so they were cleaned out.

The Making Tough Decisions post is on the Wayback machine

[JonahFalcon]

So, Serini is half-troll physically and a full troll personality.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Panel 4 is just a phenomenal thing to look at. That's all I'm here to add.

[Jasdoif]

The game design stuff got stripped out during the site rebuild last year. Most of them had gone months without a click as I understand it, so they were cleaned out.

Last I heard, they'll "eventually" be posted in the forum.

[Snails]

For all the people saying Serini has gone evil, from her perspective the Paladins are breaking the rules about keeping the defense of gates isolated.
Yes, if she has one of those devices regarding the status of the other gates then she knows this is the last one, but it's the Paladins breaking the rules first.

Well, I see zero evidence of evil on Serini's part. She is merely being Not Nice, for reasons that she is not sharing and we do not understand. She is not actually causing any real harm to these tough blokes.

Good =/= Nice
Evil =/= Not Nice.

I would say this seems to be a bit of change in personality from the tidbits of Soon's memories that were communicated via Shojo. But after several decades people are allowed to change, aren't they? Nor doe we know whether those tidbits were exactly full and complete. Serini is basically bragging about how she constantly lied to Soon, and was very skilled at it.

However, you are very wrong about the Paladins breaking the rules. They kept to their word-- we, the Readers, have abundant reason to believe that. The timing of the destruction of Soon's Gate is strong circumstantial evidence of such to Serini.

[Snails]

My money's on us learning even more about what happened to the Scribblers. Maybe not right now, but at some point before the finale.

Surely, yes.

I imagine we will get some kind of arc completion about the Stickers not being as overtly puissant as the mighty Scribblers of old, yet they are more worthy guardians of the Gates because they pulled together, rather than pulled apart. Something like that.

Giving us the Scribbler dirty laundry after Xykon is defeated would add so very little, regardless of the content.


And here is a reminder that I have been calling for the reappearance of the living Kraagor for years and years now. But that will probably not happen until after Xykon is defeated, yet the fate the Stickyverse is still in doubt.

[Clistenes]

Only O-Chul could be that concerned about politeness while chained to a wall! I do love that a little of the old Serini seems to show at the end... and that it strains even O-Chul's patience.

I find it a bit annoying how everybody in the OotSverse seems to treat Paladins with contempt... I mean, some are *******s, but they are also the "With great power comes great responsibility" guys who accept the duty to protect their neighbors against all kind of horrible things while other adventurers go after gold and fun...

Also, I find sad that Lirian, Dorukan, Serini and Girard probably lied to Soon Kim and they kept in contact among themselves from the beginning... we know Lirian and Dorukan were in contact, and we know Girard gave Serini the true coordinates to his gate, and he claimed that Serini wouldn't give Soon Kim the true ones (meaning she was in collusion with Girard), and we also know Girard had a bet with the other members of the group (or at least with Serini) over how long it would take Soon to break his oath... they probably were in contact all this time, while Soon Kim kept his word alone until his death...

[facw]

Also, I find sad that Lirian, Dorukan, Serini and Girard probably lied to Soon Kim and they kept in contact among themselves from the beginning... we know Lirian and Dorukan were in contact, and we know Girard gave Serini the true coordinates to his gate, and he claimed that Serini wouldn't give Soon Kim the true ones (meaning she was in collusion with Girard), and we also know Girard had a bet with the other members of the group (or at least with Serini) over how long it would take Soon to break his oath... they probably were in contact all this time, while Soon Kim kept his word alone until his death...

It's quite possible to have good natured fun teasing a paladin. I can even see it as being complimentary, since the joke rests not (or not entirely) on mocking the paladin's naivety, but on their excessive honor and seriousness, which at least the paladin would consider virtues.

In any event I think there's no reason to assume that everyone in the group hated Soon. It just seems like Sereni's deal allowed Soon and Girard to be comfortable that they wouldn't have to deal with each other. There may have been other tensions put aside by the arrangement as well. But it would be non-sensical to expect party members who weren't at odds with one another to cut of voluntary communication, just because the party as a whole no longer functioned. I don't think there would have been any need to lie to Soon about that (Though the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard could be lying in order to make Soon's isolation from the party seem more normal).

In any event, I do hope we get more backstory on the Scribbles, here or in a prequel book (though I'd imagine the Linear Guild and/or Vector Legion would be more promising prequel targets). Would be interesting to see more about their group dynamics, and how they fell out. We don't know much, even if they had someone who would be considered a party leader (Soon was there first, and obviously had leadership skills, but didn't seem to have much control on the Scribbles, and pretty much everyone else except Sereni seemed completely unsuitable).

[arimareiji]

The "Buy one, get one free" comment flew over my head, guessing either a pun or an alternate phrasing of "they gave me a little extra because I'm a repeat customer"? I'd be grateful if someone more clueful got it and could explain. (^_^)°

This does raise the question, why didn't Xykon loot her magic items along with her diary? We know that he is unashamed to loot, both before and after this incident. Ah well, probably a question that doesn't need to be answered for a throwaway line.

Good question. Sorry if this is dumb and I should know it from bonus material or something I forgot, but... 1) how did Xykon know he was specifically looking for her diary, and 2) why would he have a) immediately stopped looting and b) ignored the items he found before the diary? My best guess for the former is "Because he saw her writing in it while scrying in preparation for the ambush", but it doesn't explain the latter.

Wouldn't that be metallic dragons, rather than chromatic? The helper being a dragon does open up for some kind of relationship to the Draketooths - the signamancy... I mean, the color scheme, fit, at least!

Wrt speech color scheme: Imo, a copper dragon's temperament would fit perfectly with Serini. But I'm sorta attached to my first thought: "What happens if a red dragon and a gold dragon love each other very much?"

In fact, O-Chul's approach was actually more insightful in a way.

Spoiler: collapsed for space

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Just saying "you were friends" only looks at Serini's individual interaction with the trolls.

Saying "simply buying from them is likely more respect than they've ever received from any of us" looks at the broader picture, and acknowledges what life is like for most trolls when interacting with PC races. Recognizing an isolated friendship doesn't take much insight, but O-Chul's outlook is clearly a lot more empathetic.

Well said.

I have got an idea for what the spell Xykon used was.

Spoiler: collapsed for space, Blackfire

Show

To all that asked why Xykon didn't make sure Serini was dead and didn't Soul Bind her, I'm pretty sure it is because the spell he used was Blackfire from Complete Arcane. Not only does it fit the visual (it's litterally black fire on the panel), it is a medium range Necromancy spell that slowly turns one's body into black ash (loses Constitution each round until death). So the effect is right, seeing as Serini wasn't all burnt when she was hit by the spell, but had limbs burnt later. And even more, when someone is killed by this spell, they are nigh-impossible to resurrect (True res or Wish only AND a CL check), which nobody in the Scribblers, and probably the world could accomplish at the time, if I'm not mistaken. So there was little reason to double check, since the chances someone with low Fortitude succeeds three checks in a row are close to zero, and little reason to take further action, since nobody alive could resurrect her anyway.

Not familiar with it but it makes sense; in case anyone had the same idea, it's an 8th level spell, and there is indeed an "Unknown" slot at 8th level in O'Chul's list of Xykon's spells.

I don't know how well it would stand up to a DM who's extremely-RAW, but I think it'd be a brilliant ruling* that troll blood would keep her alive long enough for the spell to end (with the side effects shown). Though it really would need to be moments after Xykon left, which doesn't fit well with them getting her indoors first.
* - figure of speech, please don't jump on me too much

But you know some 3rd-level rules lawyer would object, "It's called Blackfire, and trolls can't regenerate from fire." (^_~)

[Sky_Schemer]

Is it just me, or is it not a particularly well hidden Troll village, at least given the glimpse we get - seems to be rather out in the open!

It's only hidden from the other direction.

[danielxcutter]

I have got an idea for what the spell Xykon used was. To all that asked why Xykon didn't make sure Serini was dead and didn't Soul Bind her, I'm pretty sure it is because the spell he used was Blackfire from Complete Arcane. Not only does it fit the visual (it's litterally black fire on the panel), it is a medium range Necromancy spell that slowly turns one's body into black ash (loses Constitution each round until death). So the effect is right, seeing as Serini wasn't all burnt when she was hit by the spell, but had limbs burnt later. And even more, when someone is killed by this spell, they are nigh-impossible to resurrect (True res or Wish only AND a CL check), which nobody in the Scribblers, and probably the world could accomplish at the time, if I'm not mistaken. So there was little reason to double check, since the chances someone with low Fortitude succeeds three checks in a row are close to zero, and little reason to take further action, since nobody alive could resurrect her anyway.

There are some minor nitpicks; Blackfire is a ray spell and Dorukan should have been capable of reviving her(if he made the CL check of course, but it shouldn’t have been impossible at his level either).

But yeah, it works better than most examples.

[BruceGee]

I think it's safe to say all dragon relatives of Draketooths are dead because of the Familicide.

I don't know why this is safe to say. We know from the pyramid that Familicide leaves bodies behind, and Resurrections seem rather common in this world for people with wealthy friends...

[Darc_Vader]

The "Buy one, get one free" comment flew over my head, guessing either a pun or an alternate phrasing of "they gave me a little extra because I'm a repeat customer"? I'd be grateful if someone more clueful got it and could explain. (^_^)°

I assume it was basically just because she was already there to buy some troll blood. The trolls literally upgraded her purchase to a buy one get one free when they saved her.

[Ploppy]

Re: Why didn't Xykon bother to soul trap Serini...

Spoiler

Show

In SoD Xykon only seems to bother casting that spell to spite people who frustrated him, Lirian for trapping him and from his point of view costing him his life, and Dorukan after that long siege and giving him a Wizard > Sorceror lecture.

[hamishspence]

So, Serini is half-troll physically and a full troll personality.

That, or she has the Troll Flesh graft. Still, "visually variant on the Half-Troll template" may make more sense, especially since Half-Troll comes from Fiend Folio and The Giant has already referenced Fiend Folio once before in-strip.

[Jasdoif]

Still, "visually variant on the Half-Troll template" may make more sense, especially since Half-Troll comes from Fiend Folio and The Giant has already referenced Fiend Folio once before in-strip.

It'd be an easier sell if she had the claws that the template grants, though.

[danielxcutter]

Where's the Troll Flesh graft from, then? Or Troll-Blooded?

[Lex]

Regarding the looting matter: Xykon could have very well taken from her small items like rings or amulets, but if Serenity had, say, a +6 epic armor, that alone would have been worth a fortune (360000 gold coins, if I remember correctly the rules) while being too impractical for him to pick.

Now, for Serini, I really hope the next strips will give us more informations about her and the other members of the Order of the Scribble. Her personality seems different from what was shown in crayons, did she change with time (a likely possibility, given what she went through) or was Soon who never managed to grasp her real character?

[CountDVB]

I find it a bit annoying how everybody in the OotSverse seems to treat Paladins with contempt... I mean, some are *******s, but they are also the "With great power comes great responsibility" guys who accept the duty to protect their neighbors against all kind of horrible things while other adventurers go after gold and fun...

Also, I find sad that Lirian, Dorukan, Serini and Girard probably lied to Soon Kim and they kept in contact among themselves from the beginning... we know Lirian and Dorukan were in contact, and we know Girard gave Serini the true coordinates to his gate, and he claimed that Serini wouldn't give Soon Kim the true ones (meaning she was in collusion with Girard), and we also know Girard had a bet with the other members of the group (or at least with Serini) over how long it would take Soon to break his oath... they probably were in contact all this time, while Soon Kim kept his word alone until his death...

Granted, mainly those who do are quite pragmatic or those who would view paladins as busy-bodies.

I get the feeling Lirian was the only one on good relations with Soon Kim though I suspect perhaps Kraagor was all right with him (if mainly because they were both tanks and he'd respect that about Soon being on the front with him).

Girard I got the feeling that he's a hypocrite. While he disdained Soon Kim for his stance, seeing how he put himself as a member of a clan and revered, one gets the feeling he was salty that he wasn't the one in charge. More than a few characters who are of the "don't tell me what to do" mentality also lean into "my way or highway" think whenever they get into power.

Dorukan was the new one so he knew Soon the least and I suspect he was just not happy with Soon's aloofness and Soon's attempt at distancing himself was I suspect part of an unhealthy coping mechanism to keep people at arm's length due to not grieving Mijung properly (then again, given how she's likely not even present in the afterlife there, it's likely even more hurtful).

This leaves Serini. Though time will tell how much she does know and how much she doesn't know over the specificities of the Gates falling.

[arimareiji]

I assume it was basically just because she was already there to buy some troll blood. The trolls literally upgraded her purchase to a buy one get one free when they saved her.

Thank you. (^_^) It's nice to know other people also see it at face value, I was half-convinced I missed another level of meaning.

Granted, mainly those who do are quite pragmatic or those who would view paladins as busy-bodies.

Spoiler: collapsing middle for space

Show

I get the feeling Lirian was the only one on good relations with Soon Kim though I suspect perhaps Kraagor was all right with him (if mainly because they were both tanks and he'd respect that about Soon being on the front with him).

Girard I got the feeling that he's a hypocrite. While he disdained Soon Kim for his stance, seeing how he put himself as a member of a clan and revered, one gets the feeling he was salty that he wasn't the one in charge. More than a few characters who are of the "don't tell me what to do" mentality also lean into "my way or highway" think whenever they get into power.

Dorukan was the new one so he knew Soon the least and I suspect he was just not happy with Soon's aloofness and

Soon's attempt at distancing himself was I suspect part of an unhealthy coping mechanism to keep people at arm's length due to not grieving Mijung properly (then again, given how she's likely not even present in the afterlife there, it's likely even more hurtful).

This leaves Serini. Though time will tell how much she does know and how much she doesn't know over the specificities of the Gates falling.

Wrt the first part: For anyone who read Dragonlance...

Spoiler: the series may be decades old, but it's still a spoiler

Show

part of the problem may be that they were overdue for a comeuppance a la the Kingpriest immediately before the Cat Collision*. In coming years, more examples like Sturm Brightblade will bring people's opinions back up. (Or in the OotS-verse, O-Chuls.)
* - Sorry, that was one of my favorite puns for years. And one of my very first LMAOs.

Wrt the second part: Wow. ( ; _ ; )

I hadn't processed that. That really puts a twist on why he seems more sad and solemn than anything, when he finally earns his release to paradise. (Though Miko's self-inflicted fate can't have helped.) It somewhat reminds me of What Dreams May Come.

I wonder how Serini will take the news, if O-Chul tells her about the last moments of Soon's gate. And I wonder if the Giant has been shuttling their threads toward each other in his tapestry for such a moment.

[PattThe]

I kindof wonder if Serini might be evil.
Hitting defenceless prisoners and providing them with false hope of freedom doesn't exactly scream 'good' at any rate.

Well if she's Neutral Good, then she has every right to take advantage of her position to bully other "distracted" or "misaligned" versions of good, such as the blindness of LG paladins. Nothing wrong with Good bullying their family members on the alignment chart.

[skim172]

I wouldn't say Serini is evil. If anything, this latest anecdote just confirms her characterization as "Serini the Peacemaker". But I wonder if she's become jaded about working with others ever since the Scribblers tore themselves apart. Remember, they didn't just break up because they had some backstage disagreements or because they wanted to go solo. They were literally willing to kill each other. Perhaps Serini, though still a friend to all, is not so willing to let others into her confidence when something important is at stake.

Perhaps Serini was even discovered because one of the other Scribblers unwittingly betrayed her. Perhaps she had stayed in touch with Lirian somehow - like a personal scrying marker to let Lirian know her location - so when Lirian was defeated, Xykon had a direct means to find and nearly kill Serini. If so, that might further validate her thinking that she can't trust anyone - not when it comes to these matters.

I suppose there's still orange voice around somewhere. Maybe that's her only companion.

[ebarde]

My theory is that Xykon was too amused by the idea of a half halfling, and decided to spare her cause it was worth a chuckle. I recall that he said in the past that multiple people have sworn to kill him, so honestly it's not really that unlike him to leave loose threads. When he was explaining about the diary he did seem to completely disregard Serini, and we've seen time and time again that spellcasters think very little of martials and that might extent to even epic level ones.

[Liquor Box]

Who is this 'we' that you are referring to? Do you think this?

By 'we' I mean the people discussing the present comic, and I'm not sure if it's the case which is why I asked what others thought.

Scolding people for assuming selfish motives over selfless one comes off as evil to you?

Scolding for assuming selfish motives, probably not. But hitting someone for making a reasonable guess which was wrong (or at least Serini thinks so), is probably slightly evil. Telling lies and mocking people with the chance of escape only to snatch it away is also slightly evil.

Drugging, kidnapping and imprisoning people (particularly apparently good people) probably leans more heavily toward evil - drugging kidnapping and imprisoning a person might get you several years in prison even if you release them unharmed (assuming drugging them again with amnesia is unharmed), which Serini hasn't done yet. You might assume there will be some good reason for this kidnap which becomes apparent later which will mitigate the evil of the drugging and kidnapping, and you might be right. But even if so, you might expect a good character in the situation of being forced to kidnap someone to show some remorse for having done so instead of the mocking and hitting.

Not conclusive though, which is why I used the words "coming across".

Ah, yes the evil race who save people form death (at the hands of a human, I might add) necause they're fond of them. How villainous.

Save people from death? The answer to Serini's question was not "Because you are a person and it was the right thing to do". That the question needed to be asked in the first place (and that the paladin's answer was based on their self interest) suggests that people in the OotS world (rightly or wrongly) see trolls as the sort of race who would need a reason to save someone's life. The strip suggested the trolls would only have saved their friends.

Whether saving friends only, and not others is evil probably depends on the sacrifice necessary for the save, but it did seem to only be a drop of blood....

So even if Rich prefers to not be bound by the trolls "usually chaotic evil" tag specified in the rules, the comic does read as if the trolls are seen as usually evil, and probably are. YMMV though I guess.

We've seen multiple times that "Good" and "Evil" are more an affair of culture and education than race in this comic (the teen goblins, Oona seems pretty neutral, the MitD is clearly good...). And Serini takes the time and effort to capture paladins and erase their memories instead of killing them even though, to her, they have broken the last oath of their party. I'm pretty sure she's not evil, and if she was it would not be because of some blood, but only because she is desperate and bitter to not be able to live in a society anymore.

As I say above, I don't think capturing and drugging is a good act, although it may have been less evil than alternatives available to her.

But you are right about evil not being treated as inherent in the race, I have no answer to that. I guess you are right, that she didn't have an alignment shift as a result of the troll blood.

So, Serini is half-troll physically and a full troll personality.

Pretty much. I would be pretty pissed off in the Paladin's position about the way I was being treated even if it turns out that Serini had no choice but to kidnap them.

[hroþila]

I think Serini only looks Evil if you really try to spin absolutely everything in as negative a light as possible.

It's not like she hit Lien with all her might, she bonked her forehead as if she was a child who got an answer wrong in school. It's hardly the same.
It's not like she drugged them for a giggle, either. That was necessary to capture them safely, and that's justified by her being the guardian of a crucially important artifact on which existence itself hinges. She already said she intends to let them go once she's made sure they can't interfere. Refusing their help might be a bad idea, but it's not an Evil idea. Similarly, an act not being Good per se (i.e. capturing people) does not mean it's an Evil act.
The word "kidnap" has certain particularly bad connotations, but also a denotation you can't ignore. She didn't kidnap them. She's not expecting ransom. She merely captured them.
And if you think associating with trolls instead of killing them on sight makes Serini more likely to be Evil, I think you're in disagreement with the thrust of the narrative.

[ebarde]

Hitting people for getting stuff wrong is pretty standard slapstick shenanigan, I mean Yoda did it and he isn't ev...actually bad example nvm lol I do think that to some extent it's need to be considered that OOTS functions in a different moral and logical framework than ours, I mean good characters have done some pretty shady stuff in this comic that were played off as a gag. Serini hit her not cause she's evil, but because she's playing the part of the comedic trickster mentor all so common in fantasy.

[Riftwolf]

What if the unexpected ally is the Dragon Troll that Tenrin killed? D:

[Liquor Box]

I think Serini only looks Evil if you really try to spin absolutely everything in as negative a light as possible.

It's not like she hit Lien with all her might, she bonked her forehead as if she was a child who got an answer wrong in school. It's hardly the same.
It's not like she drugged them for a giggle, either. That was necessary to capture them safely, and that's justified by her being the guardian of a crucially important artifact on which existence itself hinges. She already said she intends to let them go once she's made sure they can't interfere. Refusing their help might be a bad idea, but it's not an Evil idea. Similarly, an act not being Good per se (i.e. capturing people) does not mean it's an Evil act.
The word "kidnap" has certain particularly bad connotations, but also a denotation you can't ignore. She didn't kidnap them. She's not expecting ransom. She merely captured them.
And if you think associating with trolls instead of killing them on sight makes Serini more likely to be Evil, I think you're in disagreement with the thrust of the narrative.

Is it possible that you may be coming from the starting assumption that Serini is not evil, and then concluding that it's a stretch to say there is evidence to displace that presumption? Because we have three or four strips of information on her - so there's not much true evidence either way. So I agree there is insufficient in those few strips to firmly conclude she is evil, but more than enough to suggest it.

Let's assume it was truly necessary for her to capture them. That crazy paladin at the beginning did the same, for similar reasons (she thought they were a threat to gate she was sworn to guard), and I think it has since been acknowledged that that was not a good act (although not sufficient to make her fall all by itself). And to be clear, she did kidnap them - the word doesn't require a ransom, it only requires you to take someone against their will. If you saw people lurking outside your home, thought they might be a threat to your home, drugged them, kidnapped (or captured if you prefer) them, imprisoned them for a time, and then released them, that's criminal in most jursidictions.

The main thing for me about the kidnapping though, is that if she reluctantly drugged and kidnapped them because she had no alternative way to defend her gate, one might expect her to some remorse that her sense of duty required her to harm innocents (if you doubt that being drugged and kidnapped is itself harm, would you subject yourself to it?). Instead she mocks them by falsely promising freedom.

I didn't say it was evil to refuse their help. But it potentially is evil to drug them again (as seems to be her intent) without first investigating whether they are actually a threat - something she can now safely do as she has them tied up.

You seem to be implying that I was exaggerating the hit (or "spinning absolutely everything"). No, if I was doing that I would have also mentioned that she hit her with a weapon. I described the hit neutrally. If you want more detail, then she struck her with a stick hard enough to cause pain, but not as hard as she could. How would you like it if someone did that to you if you failed their guessing game? A small thing, but as I note above, in doesn't paint the kidnapping in a very sympathetic light.

No, i don't (and never did) think associating with trolls makes serini evil. I think her action make her appear evil, and I wondered whether the troll blood contributed to some change in her psyche. Kujaku has persuasively pointed out that that's probably not the case, and I accept that.

[ebarde]

Comparing her with Miko seems a bit unfair, as the circunstances of both their actions are extremely different. Her reasons were definetly not the same for one, and I'd much rather get the MIB treatment and just be sent on my way after losing my memory than get dragged extra-judicially as a prisioner cause some knight templar type decided to interpet her liege's wishes in the most liberal way possible. Miko also was fully ready to kill the order when she first meet them, while Serini never had any intention of taking their lives and was acting in defense of her gate rather than a long winded crusade spurred by just ignoring reason.