OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

FWIW I headcanon Eugene as actually TN(and just went to Celestia for his judgement because he thought of himself as that), and I would not be shocked if Girard slipped into CE in his later years considering how he ran his pyramid scheme, so to speak, or at least enough to go to Pandemonium instead of Limbo or Ysgard.

Also I'm honestly not sure if Hilgya's still Evil or not, considering that the Giant mentioned in commentary that she was CE in the Dungeon Crawlin' Fools book and she's done some rather selfish things, but if the Giant said that she's CN now I wouldn't exactly be shocked.

[fuschiawarrior]

We've only ever seen Soon's version of the Scribblers story, from Serini's perspective we may find that she has valid reasons to not want to work with Soon and his paladins anymore. Or that the honor-bound paladins are a bad fit for her plans that as a Rogue probably relies in subterfuge. Or as someone posted in the last thread there is no such thing as an amnesia potion and she is using the threat of it to gather information from Lien and O-Chul, she is lying all the time to them after all and would be a solution to the minor conundrum of her ability to brew potions and poisons.

Also, the troll cut into their arm rather than their hand to give blood, that's a good call, scaring a hand may lead to
severe loss of dexterity.

If anyone would know of that it certainly would be Rich. Still waiting for Sir Thumb's epic ballad.

[danielxcutter]

My head canon is it is Kraagor who would have been the most effectiveness spokesperson on behalf of Soon about his own death, but, alas, he was not available. A dwarf barbarian would likely seen anyone willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with him against great danger to be worthy of all benefit of the doubt.

The fact that a Paladin could more easily jump clear of the Rift Sealing spell than a Barbarian (due to differences in saving throws) would be but a minor detail in Kraagor's eyes, because men of action do not quibble over what Fate holds in store for the courageous. Of course, to the surviving comrades who witnessed the full tragedy unfold right before their eyes, they might tell themselves that Soon could easily foresee the result -- that Soon himself would likely live and Kraagor would likely die, and that was an important factor in Soon's choice.

I would further add it is quite conceivable that both Soon and Kraagor had insight that the other Scribblers did not, due to the "benefit" of standing toe-to-toe with the appendage of the Snarl himself: that the Snarl was fighting harder than ever to keep this one last Rift open, and the quest might well fail if not sealed immediately. There might be a very good reason that Soon ordered the Rift to be sealed immediately, rather than trying a more cautious approach if this attempt might not be working.

Yeah, I saw a theory about this a while back and it makes sense. Even if the others didn't necessarily think that, Girard at least probably had a -50 Paladin penalty on his Bias check.

[Ionathus]

Didn't take O-Chul for the type to talk about losing the closest thing the trolls had to a non-troll friend in such a detached manner. "A cost that couldn't be recouped by selling magic items" sounds like a Rand fanatic trying to justify his altruistic impulses.

Spoiler: GDGU

Show

This is a tactic that O-Chul is demonstrated as being very good with. In How the Paladin Got His Scar, he uses the same approach with the (at the time) Supreme Leader of the Hobgoblins, to appeal to the Supreme Leader's mindset instead of his own. Although O-Chul himself is an empathetic person, he phrased it diplomatically to get the maximum chance of connecting with Serini. Jury's still out on whether it'll work, but O-Chul is at the top of my list for negotiating with anyone. Dude's a frickin' diplomatic badass. And a regular one too.

[danielxcutter]

Spoiler: GDGU

Show

This is a tactic that O-Chul is demonstrated as being very good with. In How the Paladin Got His Scar, he uses the same approach with the (at the time) Supreme Leader of the Hobgoblins, to appeal to the Supreme Leader's mindset instead of his own. Although O-Chul himself is an empathetic person, he phrased it diplomatically to get the maximum chance of connecting with Serini. Jury's still out on whether it'll work, but O-Chul is at the top of my list for negotiating with anyone. Dude's a frickin' diplomatic badass. And a regular one too.

If anyone convinces Serini it'll be O-Chul, mark my words.

[Fyraltari]

Didn't take O-Chul for the type to talk about losing the closest thing the trolls had to a non-troll friend in such a detached manner. "A cost that couldn't be recouped by selling magic items" sounds like a Rand fanatic trying to justify his altruistic impulses.

he's just being a bit flowery/cheeky. Lien was the one who framed the rescue in terms of gain and loss and he's building on that.

[Riftwolf]

Didn't take O-Chul for the type to talk about losing the closest thing the trolls had to a non-troll friend in such a detached manner. "A cost that couldn't be recouped by selling magic items" sounds like a Rand fanatic trying to justify his altruistic impulses.

Saying 'you were friends with the trolls' is very specific. O-Chul phrased it in a way that it could be interpreted for different values of 'friendship' (ie Serini was useful to the troll tribe for some other purpose than monetary, the Troll King named her as kin for some undisclosed task, no-one could make waffles like her, etc.)

[dancrilis]

Spoiler: GDGU

Show

...O-Chul is at the top of my list for negotiating with anyone.

I don't know - Durkon seemed to get further to convincing Redcloak then O-Chul ever did, he also convinced a vampire into non-existance.

[JavaScribe]

That, and if she were Evil, why not just kill the paladins, then? Paladins and Evil characters don't really mix well when it comes to mutual goals, by design. Unless she's lying outright about her amnesia potion, she has no reason to keep these two pesky paladins alive and out of her way when she can just kill them. She's still an Epic character; paladins aren't really a threat to her.

She says that she's planning to make them tell their superiors that they found nothing. If she kills them, their bosses will want to know what happened to them, so instead she's leaving them alive to mislead and misdirect, like a rogue. She probably doesn't know that the Sapphire Guard is pretty much eradicated, and she definitely doesn't know their real mission either, else she would know that reporting back that they found nothing would just make their superiors confused.

Having said that, all the evidence implies that Soon did horrible, horrible things for the Greater Good. Maybe understandable given his circumstances, but still things that would be more than enough to convince Serini that his "help" isn't worth it.

[Riftwolf]

I don't know - Durkon seemed to get further to convincing Redcloak then O-Chul ever did, he also convinced a vampire into non-existance.

The operative word being 'seemed'. He didn't realise the Bottomless Bog of Redcloaks sunk cost.

[bunsen_h]

Xykon disapeared six years ago and came back with the diary three years ago. Either this is a continuity mistake or Serini kept her brown hair longer than usual. Or maybe she went white prematurely from the trauma of the attack, weirder things have been known to happen.

Perhaps she was dyeing it, but stopped bothering after -- as she put it -- her complexion went bad.

Huh, good question. Adventurers in the OotSverse who are willing to even talk with monstrous creatures are apparently rare.

She says that she bought blood from them "a bunch of times". For someone who's not particularly strong in combat, and knows she'll need that resource many times, it makes sense to try trade instead of violence. Apart from any ethical considerations, of course.

I'll go one step farther. It doesn't make sense at all that Serini was left for dead by Xykon, and I think more likely, she found a way to escape, as per Start of Darkness spoilers:

There are a few possibilities. Perhaps he had strong reasons to leave quickly: driven off, or in a hurry for something. Or Serini's description isn't accurate.

[Metastachydium]

I think you are missing the point. It's not that some posters associate women with evil and men with good it's that women tend to come into much harsher scrutiny than their male counterparts. You say that no-one is arguing that Xykon, Redcloak, Nale, the Directors, Bozzok, Qarr or Kubota are Good or Neutral but all of these people are villains while Hilgya, Serini, Andy or Miko are more allies to the heroes or neutral (on the antagonist_protagonist spectrum, not the alignment grid). A better comparison would be asking where are all the people calling Ian evil for initially wanting to kill Elan, stealing from a the rich and (only after a the death of his wife) giving 20% to the poor after expenses and wanting to charge Roy for the potion he gave him while fighting a raging madman, the people calling Eugene evil for not caring about his family, causing Eric's death suggesting mass suicide to solve the dwarves' problem, calling Julio evil for destroying the defenses of a major city without any real reason or thought to the consequences or calling the Oracle evil for his anti-mamal prejudice, worship of Tiamat and routine use of memory altering magic (hey that last one reminds me of someone). Hell, there are still a lot of people calling Loki Neutral after he made it clear that, if it weren't for his survival he would gladly help Hel enslave and taorture millions of dwarves so that she could set herself up as a dark queen in the next world and rain undeath all over the future Northern Continent.

This phenomenon of women being held to harsher standards than men isn't particular to this forum or fandom, either. It's very common to see women criticized or insulted for actions or attitudes men get a pass for or are even praised for in most fandoms, for examples Skyler White from Breaking Bad is often called the worst character of the show for the crime of not being supportive enough of her husband's drug trafficking! And that's to say nothing of how real women are treated.

You see, that kind of bias probably exist (even here), but I don't think that is in effect here. At any rate, the examples that came up thus far are not really informative. For starters, Oona is not an ally of the Order, Miko is mostly an antagonist they work against and even their relationship with Hilgya is tense at best and it gets hostile at times. Yet, there are many people specifically arguing that Oona is not Evil, people arguing that Hilgya is not Evil and those considering Miko Evil must be in the minority too. Meanwhile, I don't think I've ever seen anyone arguing that Eugene is in fact Lawful Good, and he is universally accepted to be an awful person at best and the Oracle is likewise mostly viewed as a non-Good jerk (and I'd be very surprised to finf he's never been alleged to be Evil before – of course, we have the Word of the Giant that he is Neutral, so it's easy to see why his alignment doesn't come up more often). As for Julio, while I don't like him much, the worst thing he ever did was the stunt with the catapult, and accusing him with being Evil for that (i.e. for not foreseeing that Azure City is soon to get invaded) would be out there with the actual, very creepy arguments that Oona is not Evil because the entire North Pole is somehow her very own territory, so she can kill whoever she wants and do whatever she wants with their bodies.

[Ionathus]

I don't know - Durkon seemed to get further to convincing Redcloak then O-Chul ever did, he also convinced a vampire into non-existance.

O-Chul had a lot working against him there, though. Redcloak has specific problems with the Sapphire Guard (going back to SoD), and O-Chul was a prisoner with (supposedly) valuable information. He was just never going to convince Redcloak of anything...which is why he focused his efforts on the MitD.

Durkon, meanwhile, approached him as a religious emissary, offering to negotiate on behalf of Thor. If Durkon & O-Chul's positions were switched, and O-Chul was the cleric party member with no official membership with the Sapphire Guard, his personality and diplomatic skills could very potentially improve that negotiation.

Then again, Durkon's specific lived experience vis-a-vis feeling like a bargaining chip between gods definitely pulled some weight as well.

Edit to add:

This phenomenon of women being held to harsher standards than men isn't particular to this forum or fandom, either. It's very common to see women criticized or insulted for actions or attitudes men get a pass for or are even praised for in most fandoms, for examples Skyler White from Breaking Bad is often called the worst character of the show for the crime of not being supportive enough of her husband's drug trafficking! And that's to say nothing of how real women are treated.

100% agreed. Male characters get a pass all the time for behavior that gets scrutinized and demonized when it shows up in their female counterparts. If this was Girard who'd captured the paladins and the worst he was doing was bonking them on the head for getting a question wrong, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a lot more "well, it's understandable that he would be upset..." Meanwhile Serini behaves rudely to paladins who vowed never to come knocking, and somehow that's evidence for a slide towards evil?

[hamishspence]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone arguing that Eugene is in fact Lawful Good,

I've seen plenty of "Eugene was LG when he died and the only thing stopping him from getting into Celestia was his Blood Oath" arguments.

Less common are "Eugene is still LG, right now" arguments, but I think it's come up once or twice.

[Dion]

Didn't take O-Chul for the type to talk about losing the closest thing the trolls had to a non-troll friend in such a detached manner.

In my mind, O’Chul was trying to be polite.

I believe that many people on OotS universe take offense at a claim that they are friends with trolls (similar to the ideas of some posters on this board that being friends with trolls is evidence of being evil).

Saying “you’re friends with trolls” is probably a grade school insult, and he wanted to avoid saying it directly.

[Metastachydium]

I've seen plenty of "Eugene was LG when he died and the only thing stopping him from getting into Celestia was his Blood Oath" arguments.

Less common are "Eugene is still LG, right now" arguments, but I think it's come up once or twice.

Holy… Why would anyone do that?

[Quartz]

Is panel 6 a shout-out to the film 28 Days Later? Specifically the drop of blood in the eye?

[facw]

Holy… Why would anyone do that?

I think part of it is that (as I understand it) in D&D, people's alignments aren't supposed to change after death, so if you believe Eugene was lawful good when he died, he should still be lawful good now. Admittedly he doesn't seem particularly good (though there's not much to say that he's evil or even neutral either), and not wholly lawful either he seems to be willing to keep his own word, but impersonating a being of pure law and good for the purpose of fixing a trial doesn't seem very lawful at all.

That said, I don't think we have an especially good measure of Eugene. What we've seen is heavily colored by his broken relationship with Roy (note that Julia and Roy's mom both seem to have a significantly different, and more charitable impressions of Eugene from Roy). The death of Roy's brother seems to have been (as you would expect) significantly traumatic to both Roy and Eugene, and warps our view of whatever Eugene was and is.

[EmperorSarda]

Why why why why are these discussions always about women?

Is it a woman thing? Or people over analyzing characters to insanity levels thing? Cause I've seen plenty of alignment discussions about males too.

Anywho, it is possible I'm wrong. I don't have much interest in discussing if there are sexist trends on these forums.

Anywho, my comment is that that I don't Serini is evil at all nor is her bonking the paladin any indication of her alignment. I'd aim for Chaotic or neutral good.

Exactly, thank you. Rude does not equal evil.

I don't see how people jump onto the "Serini is evil" train so soon. But this is the nature of the forums.

[Metastachydium]

I think part of it is that (as I understand it) in D&D, people's alignments aren't supposed to change after death, so if you believe Eugene was lawful good when he died, he should still be lawful good now. Admittedly he doesn't seem particularly good (though there's not much to say that he's evil or even neutral either), and not wholly lawful either he seems to be willing to keep his own word, but impersonating a being of pure law and good for the purpose of fixing a trial doesn't seem very lawful at all.

That said, I don't think we have an especially good measure of Eugene. What we've seen is heavily colored by his broken relationship with Roy (note that Julia and Roy's mom both seem to have a significantly different, and more charitable impressions of Eugene from Roy). The death of Roy's brother seems to have been (as you would expect) significantly traumatic to both Roy and Eugene, and warps our view of whatever Eugene was and is.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

SoD basically confirms that he was an arrogant jerk and a horrible father before Eric was even born.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Is it a woman thing? Or people over analyzing characters to insanity levels thing? Cause I've seen plenty of alignment discussions about males too.

One of my least favorite things about these kinds of discussions are the {Scrubbed} who walk in on a discussion about trends, point out that those trends aren't universal, and walk out as if that's all that needs to be said.
Not all women are harshly criticized. Not all men are let off the hook. But women are more frequently criticized for behavior that is more frequently accepted in men. There's not really an explanation for this other than unconscious biases that people refuse to examine, which A. have effects on real people and B. have less effect if people examine and recognize them. Which is the point of pointing them out.

Anywho, it is possible I'm wrong. I don't have much interest in discussing if there are sexist trends on these forums.

Lower on the list is people who make arguments and then pretend they don't care about the list. Higher on the list is people who try to make critiques of broad trends into attacks on an individual or community which happens to be part of them.


Nothing personal, Emperor Sarda, your post just touches on some lines of logic that really bug me, on a topic I think is important to discuss. You're not even particularly bad about any of it, you're just a convenient springboard for me to explain my position and what I find irritating/insidious about the other side.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've heard of people arguing that Tarquin must be non-Evil, but I've never actually seen that

The two hundred foot high flaming letters seems to have gotten the message across to most people.

no-one could make waffles like her, etc.)

And she froze them and sold them, in bulk, to gnomes who then served them for brunch, much to the deligh of Bandana.

Having said that, all the evidence implies that Soon did horrible, horrible things for the Greater Good.

Such as?

For someone who's not particularly strong in combat, and knows she'll need that resource many times, it makes sense to try trade instead of violence.

Rogues tend to be practical.

Or Serini's description isn't accurate.

What? Serini tell a fib? Pshaw, say it ain't so.

I've seen plenty of "Eugene was LG when he died and the only thing stopping him from getting into Celestia was his Blood Oath" arguments.

There is, somewhere, a post on these forums where Rich spells out various character alignments. IIRC, Eugene is listed as LG, but I can't find that post at the moment. That is also the place where V is listed as TN.

That said, I don't think we have an especially good measure of Eugene. What we've seen is heavily colored by his broken relationship with Roy (note that Julia and Roy's mom both seem to have a significantly different, and more charitable impressions of Eugene from Roy). The death of Roy's brother seems to have been (as you would expect) significantly traumatic to both Roy and Eugene, and warps our view of whatever Eugene was and is.

Maybe; I have a few other thoughts on why Eugene is painted as he is, but I'll not digress into that since Eugene, as a topic, is a dead horse that has long since turned to glue.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

SoD basically confirms that he was an arrogant jerk and a horrible father before Eric was even born.

OoTS establishes, quite clearly, in the Narrative, that one can be LG and a jerk. Miko is the classic example - an LG jerk who never stops being a paladin (she stayed blue) until she fell after laying Shojo low in the throne room.

Try to recall the distinction between "unlikeable" and "lawful good" and "evil" etc.

Eugene is quite the unlikeable character, just as Miko was, but he too can be an LG jerk.

[bunsen_h]

FWIW I headcanon Eugene as actually TN(and just went to Celestia for his judgement because he thought of himself as that), and I would not be shocked if Girard slipped into CE in his later years considering how he ran his pyramid scheme, so to speak, or at least enough to go to Pandemonium instead of Limbo or Ysgard.

I'm just imagining... Xykon is finally destroyed; Eugene is watching from the waiting area on Celestia. There's a "DING!" Eugene: "Yeah! Finally, I'm in!"

Then the Deva says, "Okay! Time for your review, whoops, off you go. Elsewhere."

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm just imagining... Xykon is finally destroyed; Eugene is watching from the waiting area on Celestia. There's a "DING!" Eugene: "Yeah! Finally, I'm in!"

Then the Deva says, "Okay! Time for your review, whoops, off you go. Elsewhere."

Didn't he have the review already, and they left him on the vestibule because of it? I guess we'll see. Given his demonstrated, on screen, level of selfishness I'd not be surprised to see a second review, like an NFL scoring play being challenged, go along the lines of
"On further review, the ball{soul} is placed in {somewherer not quite Celestia}"
or someting like that.

[bunsen_h]

Didn't he have the review already, and they left him on the vestibule because of it? I guess we'll see.

The stunt with Tony would have been after that, and might influence matters.

[KorvinStarmast]

The stunt with Tony would have been after that, and might influence matters.

Yeah, I can get behind that line of thinking.

[pendell]

The review was already completed, as I recall, and he was in except for the blood oath. He was left trapped in Limbo by the oath while his son was admitted because Eugene abandoned his oath in life; this exile in limbo was his punishment for doing so.

That doesn't mean he wasn't lawful good, nor does the chaotic actions he has taken since death make him other than lawful good -- it simply makes him a human, not a deva or a paragon, not an exemplar of the alignment. The Deva criticized Roy on much the same lines. Roy lying to his fellow members in earlier books to get them to do what he wanted did not scream "lawful" to the Deva judging his case. Nonetheless, she let him in anyway because he was trying to live up to the tenants of law and good and , for a mortal, that is enough. It isn't enough to qualify for paragon or sainthood, and it might disqualify him from paladinship, but for a lawful good fighter without bonus feats that is enough.

I'm willing to believe Eugene was lawful good when he was judged and remains lawful good now, on the basis that when his case was reviewed it reviewed his entire life, not just what we see on-panel. What we see on-camera is not enough to determine his final destination. He's not the focus of the story and we do not see his character in detail. He's an irascible old man who has a bad relationship with his son, and pops down every once in awhile to deliver sarcasm and exposition. That's his story purpose. We don't know why he was judged to be lawful good in the first place, but I am inclined to believe there must have been off-panel reasons which were sufficient, which Rich isn't telling because he only has so much panel space. Maybe if he has another kickstarter we can get a backstory to fill in the blanks, although I for my part have already had as much of Eugene Greenhilt as I can take.

Good does not mean nice. Good people can be unpleasant to deal with, good people can be bad fathers, good people can make mistakes, good people can experience moral failures. That doesn't mean their alignment changes. That just means they're humans.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Metastachydium]

OoTS establishes, quite clearly, in the Narrative, that one can be LG and a jerk. Miko is the classic example - an LG jerk who never stops being a paladin (she stayed blue) until she fell after laying Shojo low in the throne room.

Try to recall the distinction between "unlikeable" and "lawful good" and "evil" etc.

Eugene is quite the unlikeable character, just as Miko was, but he too can be an LG jerk.

Miko went out of her way to conform to her moral code, she did her best to help the innocent and punish Evil. Her being LG made sense.
I cannot, however, recall a single instance of Eugene doing anything like that. Trying to fulfill the Blood Oath is the closest he came to that, but even that was in part just self interest and he eventually abandoned the quest.

[Emanick]

Miko went out of her way to conform to her moral code, she did her best to help the innocent and punish Evil. Her being LG made sense.
I cannot, however, recall a single instance of Eugene doing anything like that. Trying to fulfill the Blood Oath is the closest he came to that, but even that was in part just self interest and he eventually abandoned the quest.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

We know Eugene was judged to be Lawful Good by a "pure Law and Good" deva,

so it seems beyond question that he died a Lawful Good man. It is true that his depicted behavior hardly indicates as much. It is also true, though, that we're not getting a full picture of the man; we mostly see him in interactions with Roy, which seems to bring out the worst in him.

I think that in order for the story to be consistent, we have to make some assumptions, and the simplest set of assumptions seems to me to be something like "Eugene did lots of Good (and Lawful) things off-screen, such as defending innocent villagers from monsters for free or mentoring young wizards and helping them with tuition, and we don't see these things because they're not relevant to the story and in fact would take away from it by making Eugene less of a foil for Roy." Otherwise, we have to assume some other things, like that the devas somehow inexplicably screwed up, or, worse, that Rich is a bad storyteller who wrote something unbelievable, and I don't find those assumptions as plausible.

[KorvinStarmast]

I cannot, however, recall a single instance of Eugene doing anything like that.

Given that Eugene is Dead when OoTS begins, and that most of his life was already passed by in the prequels, your objection has no grounds as it has no evidence.
Most of his life happens off screen, in both the spatial and temporal sense.
Which takes me to the fact that, on screen, he's pending his arrival into LG afterlife once the blood oath is completed.
And, Rich's post, which one of these days I'll find; I may have to cast Summon Banana for that one though.