What would make a Poison cantrip worth it?

[Greywander]

There aren't that many monsters that are resistant to poison, but an absolute ton of them are immune so Elemental Adept wouldn't help that much if it included poison.

The Poisoner feat from Tasha's is also basically Elemental Adept for poison damage. It's a bad feat for exactly the same reasons that Elemental Adept (poison) would be; there just aren't a lot of poison-resistant enemies, but a lot of immune ones.

It's not that poison damage is completely unusable, it's just that there's a pretty broad swathe of enemies against which it is useless. Against anyone else, it can be pretty effective. The main reason I don't take poison cantrips is that I don't get a lot of cantrips and I'd rather take a more reliable damage cantrip and a utility cantrip instead of two damage cantrips because one of them does poison damage. It's one of the reasons I don't usually take Fire Bolt, either.

[brainface]

Right now, we have two poison-based cantrips: Poison Spray (d12, 10ft, Con save) and Infestation (d6, 30ft, Con save, crappy rider). I don't think I even have to say that both are in a level of terrible on par with True Strike.

Im going to disagree heavily: true strike costs an action to do something that's roughly equal to just not casting true strike. If a living non-dwarf gets adjacent to you, which is not that rare of an occurance, poison spray is the most damaging cantrip outside of booming blade shenanigans. Its numbers (damage, number of targets, and arguably range--its a melee cantrip in disguise!) don't need any sort of buff. I'd argue something like "make undead only resistant to poison damage" is the actual correction needed.

[elyktsorb]

I still stand by the fact that if the Poisoner feat made it so your poison damage treated immunity as resistance and then ignored resistance when applying poison damage, it would be fine. (Especially since the ignoring resistance part it already has is a moot point because barely anything resists poison)

[MrStabby]

It isn't just immunity to poison that is the issue. It is the fact it correlates with so many other immunities.

Look at devils - immune to poison, but also immune to fire and with magic resistance. So here is an enemy you won't be harming with most of your spells that need a save, so you are looking at attack roll saves which tend to be a) cantrips, b) bad or c) scorching ray/inflict wounds.

If you are picking a cantrip to compliment your other spells you want something that is great when your other spells are bad. Lots of save spells plus eldritch blast is great as you can hit things that are magic resistant.

The degree to which poison immunity correlates with other immunities and resistances means that it tends to be a bad option just at the times you really want your secondary option to be good.

If you are creating a poison cantrip, I would say its going to be tough. You want something that is able to be comparible with an action with spells like hold person and command for when you are fighting humanoids, as these are likely to be most of your enemies tha are NOT poison immune (not saying they should be equal, just good enough to be a meaningful choice about which to use).

So... to give a "poison" cantrip its place, I would make it something like poisoning a blade. An action to add Xd6 poison damage to your next weapon attack means it has some value in preparation for a fight, useful when you cant chose a good enemy, or waiting for disadvantage to go.

[heavyfuel]

If you are creating a poison cantrip, I would say its going to be tough. You want something that is able to be comparible with an action with spells like hold person and command for when you are fighting humanoids, as these are likely to be most of your enemies tha are NOT poison immune (not saying they should be equal, just good enough to be a meaningful choice about which to use).

So... to give a "poison" cantrip its place, I would make it something like poisoning a blade. An action to add Xd6 poison damage to your next weapon attack means it has some value in preparation for a fight, useful when you cant chose a good enemy, or waiting for disadvantage to go.

MrStabby suggesting a spell that makes stabbing people more effective. Am I noticing a pattern here?

I could see i working like the Light cantrip. 1 hour duration, touch range, ends if you cast it again. Dealing an extra d6 poison damage (no save - the wielder already has to hit AC) and maybe forcing a Con save vs Poisoned condition for 1 round?

[MrStabby]

MrStabby suggesting a spell that makes stabbing people more effective. Am I noticing a pattern here?

Everyone needs a hobby!

I could see i working like the Light cantrip. 1 hour duration, touch range, ends if you cast it again. Dealing an extra d6 poison damage (no save - the wielder already has to hit AC) and maybe forcing a Con save vs Poisoned condition for 1 round?

Hmm, I was thinking of scaling damage but poison for one round is something that scales OK anyway.

It would need a caster willing to make a weapon attack though, which makes it a bit niche (which isn't actually a bad thing).

[LumenPlacidum]

First, I agree with the idea of a poison-damage cantrip that is an add-on to an attack. I'd structure it like Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade. Each of these has a mitigating factor that prevents it from being purely just plus big damage (at least until higher levels), like GFB needing two targets to be adjacent or BB needing the target to move. I think poison damage coupled with damage that's lower than d8s would work sufficiently well for such a limitation. Perhaps it's an action cantrip that lets you make a weapon attack with a slashing damage or piercing damage weapon, and makes the attack deal +1d6 poison damage. At level 5 it boosts to +2d6 poison damage; at level 11 to +3d6; at level 17 to +4d6. The ability to apply it to bow attacks I think would make it very appealing to people, even though it's not very sexy in terms of extra damage.


With regards to poison spray, rather than having it apply the Poisoned condition (which is probably too strong for a cantrip), make it so that when it affects someone who is already Poisoned, the target auto-fails the save. Now it has a circumstantial bonus, but when that circumstance is met, it becomes a strong damaging option that has synergy with other abilities (which always makes builds more interesting).

Infestation? I don't really understand the spell to begin with. I think the movement is bolted-on and doesn't make sense. I'd prefer that it have the chance to deal some poison damage and then give the target disadvantage on Constitution saves to concentrate on a spell, starting with the save for the poison damage that this cantrip is doing.

[heavyfuel]

Hmm, I was thinking of scaling damage but poison for one round is something that scales OK anyway.

It would need a caster willing to make a weapon attack though, which makes it a bit niche (which isn't actually a bad thing).

Oh, I meant d6 per tier. So 1d6, plus an extra 1d6 at 5th, 11th, and 17th.

I was thinking it could be used to pre-buff the Fighter (or whomever). Cast it on them, and let them make an attack? The biggest issue with this is that it would be too useful mid combat, which is when most damage cantrips are used.

Lowering the duration to 1 minute but making it usable at range would make it better in that sense. You could be constantly buffing your martials in combat, which is nice as it encourages cooperation.

Or it could be a blade cantrip like BB/GFB, probably removing the initial d6

[heavyfuel]

With regards to poison spray, rather than having it apply the Poisoned condition (which is probably too strong for a cantrip), make it so that when it affects someone who is already Poisoned, the target auto-fails the save. Now it has a circumstantial bonus, but when that circumstance is met, it becomes a strong damaging option that has synergy with other abilities (which always makes builds more interesting).

Infestation? I don't really understand the spell to begin with. I think the movement is bolted-on and doesn't make sense. I'd prefer that it have the chance to deal some poison damage and then give the target disadvantage on Constitution saves to concentrate on a spell, starting with the save for the poison damage that this cantrip is doing.

I like the idea of the target auto-failing the save when Poisoned, although it probably still needs some other buff. Either increased range or making it a 10ft cone as was suggested. A d12 cantrip that - given the right (not easily achievable) circumstances can deal guaranteed damage is pretty nice.

Agree with Infestation. I have no idea what they were trying to accomplish with it.

[da newt]

In order for a poison cantrip to compete with other existing cantrips it would need to be more powerful than others to counter the high immunity rate.

The SCAG cantrip idea is interesting, but does not cater to caster PCs - it caters to GISH types, but could be unique/flavorful if it worked with ranged/thrown weapons.

For a caster cantrip, I'd look to create a small AoE, a short range, and a short duration Poisoned Condition. Something like 20' cone, 1d10 damage (normal level progression) and CON save vs Poisoned Condition until the end of your next turn. This would make it a bit more powerful than most cantrips (the plus) but effective against fewer foes due to immunity (the minus).

[Tanarii]

Creatures with poison immunity is a side issue, unless you're battling hordes of undead or fiends.

The big issue is range. d12 at 10ft range didn't sound like a good deal to many people even before XTGE and SCAG introduced new cantrips.

Giving it a boost of some kind on top of being the highest damaging cantrip might make it appealing to arcane casters other than EKs. (Or even competitive with SCAG if they're allowed.)

[sithlordnergal]

I personally have to disagree with Tanarii, range is an issue with Poison Cantrips, but its not the biggest issue. If it were then you wouldn't see people take spells like Thorn Whip or Primal Savagery, two spells with similar or shorter ranges then Infestation and Poison Spray. No, the two biggest issue is how many creatures are immune to Poison and the fact that Con saves are unreliable at best. Nearly every undead, almost all Elementals, every single Construct, all Fiends, heck even some Monstrosities are immune to Poison. The only way you're have a campaign where Poison Immunity doesn't become an issue is if you're only facing Humanoids, Beasts, and Abberations. Meaning it can, technically, be done, but in most campaigns you're going to run into at least 1 Zombie.

Therefore, if you want to make a Poison Cantrip worth it, you need to deal with the Poison Immunity issue. Given how common Poison Immunity is, I think it'd be fair to make a cantrip that can treat Poison Immunity as Poison Resistance instead. Specifically, I'd have it do the following:


Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 60ft

Duration: 1 Round

The targeted creature must succeed a Constitution saving throw or take 1d4 Poison damage. Additionally, if the targeted creature failed the Constitution save and is immune to Poison damage, they lose that immunity and have Resistance to Poison damage instead until the end of your next turn.

---

There, now you have a way to get past Poison Immunity. It also has potential to work with the Poisoner Feat since it turns Immunity into Resistance instead, rewarding players for good synergy. I also made it last until the end of the Caster's next turn, that way a person can cast it, then cast a Poison spell like Ray of Sickness. It also doesn't remove immunity to the Poisoned condition, so creatures will only take damage from poison spells and poison in general. Finally, I set the damage to a d4 since removing Immunity is a powerful effect.

As for concerns of it being "too strong", the effects only last a single round, meaning you're still limited in how much Poison damage you can do to a target. Plus lets be honest, Poison damage needs to have a bone thrown to it. Its the worst damage type in the game for a reason, so I don't think making a cantrip that ignores Poison Immunity is that game breaking. It also makes abilities or magic items that ignore Poison Resistance feel like less of a slap in the face, since such items are virtually useless since there are only 15 creatures Resistant to Poison.

[Tanarii]

I personally have to disagree with Tanarii,

Thats it, it's personal!

range is an issue with Poison Cantrips, but its not the biggest issue. If it were then you wouldn't see people take spells like Thorn Whip or Primal Savagery, two spells with similar or shorter ranges then Infestation and Poison Spray.

Thorn Whip has a 30ft range. Poison Spray is 10ft. That's a world of difference.

I didn't see players taking primal savagery. IMX it is regarded even worse than Poison Spray.


OTOH it's fair to say it is the combination of things.
- short range
- single target
- poison damage
- no rider
- con save

Is d12 damage worth all that? Almost certainly not.

[heavyfuel]

Therefore, if you want to make a Poison Cantrip worth it, you need to deal with the Poison Immunity issue. Given how common Poison Immunity is, I think it'd be fair to make a cantrip that can treat Poison Immunity as Poison Resistance instead.

While this would perhaps solve the issue of poison damage from a gameplay perspective, I do think it's plain stupid from a "logic" perspective. Yeah yeah logic and d&d don't work well together, I know. But I still expect there to be some logic in my games. Why would an animated object - which is literally just a regular everyday object being manipulated like a puppet - get poisoned?

If you wanna handwave people being able to poison a brick wall, go for it, but I wouldn't go that route.

I feel like a Poison cantrip should have enough benefits to make up for the immunities. It's a situational cantrip. Most characters can't afford more than two damage cantrip (unless they couldn't care less about utility), so picking a powerful - yet niche - damage cantrip is a risk. If you pick Firebolt and the new-Poison-cantrip, there's a good chance some of your enemies will be both immune to poison AND (at least resistant to) fire. So picking the new-Poison-cantrip means either you have something hardly ever resisted (Sacred Flame or Eldritch Blast) or it means losing a lot utility.

[Pex]

I personally have to disagree with Tanarii, range is an issue with Poison Cantrips, but its not the biggest issue. If it were then you wouldn't see people take spells like Thorn Whip or Primal Savagery, two spells with similar or shorter ranges then Infestation and Poison Spray. No, the two biggest issue is how many creatures are immune to Poison and the fact that Con saves are unreliable at best. Nearly every undead, almost all Elementals, every single Construct, all Fiends, heck even some Monstrosities are immune to Poison. The only way you're have a campaign where Poison Immunity doesn't become an issue is if you're only facing Humanoids, Beasts, and Abberations. Meaning it can, technically, be done, but in most campaigns you're going to run into at least 1 Zombie.

When you face a zombie you cast something else. It is not a necessity for a spell to be applicable for every scenario possible. You're not only facing undead, elementals, constructs, and fiends in a campaign. You will be facing humanoids, beasts, and abberations, so you can use a poison spell then.

It is the DM's job to tell a player if particular spells will be useless for the oncoming campaign due to fiat circumstances. It is the player's job to diversify his spell selection to account for situations where a particular spell won't work.

[Kane0]

Poison blade: scag-like straight poison damage to weapon attack
Infestation: mid-range poison damage + condition for short duration
Poison spray: short range cone of poison damage, extra if a target is poisoned

Problems i see:
- two out of three use con saves. Could potentially fix this by making infestation an attack spell with secondary save but then its basically identical to ray of sickness
- you might want more than one in your limited cantrip slots to maximise combo potential, especially if you dont want to rely on ray of sickness and similar. Not strictly necessary however and there are ways to get more cantrips
- still doesnt deal with immunity

On immunity, i would change up the poisoner feat to:
- Apply poison as bonus action with no chance of applying to self
- Craft poisons twice as fast, and can make one dose of basic poison during a short rest (which expire at the end of a long rest)
- when you deal poison damage to a creature you treat immunity as resistance, ignore resistance and once per long rest can apply vulnerability to a creature that is neither immune nor resistant (for that one instance of damage).

So without the feat the poison options are strong but situational, and if you want to make them more reliable the feat gives you a well rounded improvement so you can happily use poison as a primary means of attack

[Morty]

I think though that these types of comparisons are skewed, depending on what you face. If you mostly face humanoids, giants, dragons, beast, or aberrations? Or heck, even oozes and fey. Poison's golden. Lots of fiends, elementals, constructs, or undead? It sucks. Basically there are types that are only very rarely immune to poison, and types that are basically all (70+%, with most in the 80s or 90s) immune to poison. With only a very few others, and even those are in the low teens % immune.

So depending on the campaign, it can be great (although the limited range makes it worse; make it a 10' cone and it'd be great in those campaigns).

Of course, one of the poison-immune categories, undead, are a pretty common enemy, on every tier of play. Not every campaign will involve undead, but many of them will.

[MrStabby]

When you face a zombie you cast something else. It is not a necessity for a spell to be applicable for every scenario possible. You're not only facing undead, elementals, constructs, and fiends in a campaign. You will be facing humanoids, beasts, and abberations, so you can use a poison spell then.

It is the DM's job to tell a player if particular spells will be useless for the oncoming campaign due to fiat circumstances. It is the player's job to diversify his spell selection to account for situations where a particular spell won't work.

But that's the problem I was talking about - the time you want to bust out your secondary cantrip is the time when you have fewer other spells that work. Enemies that are immune to poison are also more likely than average to have immunity to fear, to charm, or have magic resistance or other protection from your other spells. It isn't a problem that a lot of stuff is immune to poison, the problem is that it is immune to poison when you need to be relying more heavily on your secondary effects.

[Kane0]

And we dont want to make one cantrip to rule them all, ideally we should be trying to make the poison ones worth taking even if they wont always be the best option

[Pex]

But that's the problem I was talking about - the time you want to bust out your secondary cantrip is the time when you have fewer other spells that work. Enemies that are immune to poison are also more likely than average to have immunity to fear, to charm, or have magic resistance or other protection from your other spells. It isn't a problem that a lot of stuff is immune to poison, the problem is that it is immune to poison when you need to be relying more heavily on your secondary effects.

Since when do people complain a particular monster makes life difficult for a spellcaster, poor spellcaster you're so weak?

A wizard could have as his damage cantrips Fire Bolt and Ray of Frost. One day he will face a creature resistant/immune to both fire and cold. He deals with it. I would tell any player not to have only one type of damage cantrip regardless of what it is, accepting Warlock. Bard and Artificer maybe too. With spell selection in general I also advise to diversify. I certainly agree there are niche spells. I also agree a spell or two is garbage, coughWitchBoltcough. Poison spells are not that bad, but they shouldn't be your only spell type. Have different attack modes as possible, and sometimes all you can do is buff/support others and let them deal with the bad guy directly.

[Luccan]

I always thought Poison Spray should have a chance of conferring the Poisoned condition, but maybe that's too much for a d12 cantrip?

Infestation's rider would be great if it either provoked opportunity attacks or let you pick the direction they move (niche use, but forced movement can help set ups even if it's only 5ft).

[Kane0]

I always thought Poison Spray should have a chance of conferring the Poisoned condition, but maybe that's too much for a d12 cantrip?

Infestation's rider would be great if it either provoked opportunity attacks or let you pick the direction they move (niche use, but forced movement can help set ups even if it's only 5ft).

If you roll an 11 or 12 on a damage die?

Seconded on picking direction

[Tanarii]

If you roll an 11 or 12 on a damage die?

1 or a 2. That way it makes up for an otherwise terrible roll.

[Greywander]

Honestly, a cantrip that inflicted the Poisoned condition might very well be worth it. No damage, just a CON save or be Poisoned for one round. The large number of monsters immune to poison (which almost always includes the Poisoned condition) is balanced out by how debilitating the Poisoned condition is. If they're not immune, then they're going to have a bad time.

[Monster Manuel]

I agree that the rider on infestation is weird. Target gets stung by a swarm of bees, and lurches to the side to avoid it. This reaction strikes me as gamey, and immersion breaking, since it's imposing a choice on the target, but not due to any kind of compulsion or mind effect. Why didn't they just stand there and wave their arms? Or swat at the bugs? Or are we saying that the bugs are actually physically massing up and shoving the target? That's not better. Mechanically, 5 feet of random forced movement is fine for a cantrip rider, it just doesn't make sense for THIS cantrip.

That said, I like it, and here's why: it gives the spell something to do when the target is poison immune. If we change the rider to "imposes the poisoned condition until the end of next turn", you still get hit with the immunity clause. If there was a useful rider that made sense that took effect regardless of whether the damage hit, it makes it much more appealing.

The most logical would be imposing some kind of disadvantage as the swarm blocks the target's vision, but 1 turn blindness is too strong for a cantrip. "Target has disadvantage on attack rolls and skill checks until end of your next turn, due to the painful distraction and disorientation caused by the swarm" gives the same result as the poisoned condition, without actually being poisoned, so immunity doesn't apply. I would word it that way.

[W41Blackr4zr]

I am playing a campaign were i am a Myconid driud (DM helped my make it playable)
my main cantrip is poison spray...we have a running joke that it is the most useless spell ever,
Con saves are quite often high on monsters so it will just be straight out negated.
Poison resistance is one of the most common you'll find, if i was to boost the spell to make it useable i would definitely say it should be AoE (10ft cone sounded good whoever said that)
and the poisoned condition to all who fail their save.

[Damon_Tor]

Many of the creatures who are currently resistant/immune to poison should instead be immune to poison from specific sources.

Yuan-Ti, for example, should be immune to poison from snakes... but with no generalized resistance to poison. Other creatures might have resistance or immunity to poison from non-magic sources.

Also, I would like to see more "fail by X" mechanics in poisons. In the case of Poison Spray, make it so if they fail their save by 5 or more, they are poisoned until the end of your next turn.

[Kane0]

Many of the creatures who are currently resistant/immune to poison should instead be immune to poison from specific sources.

Yuan-Ti, for example, should be immune to poison from snakes... but with no generalized resistance to poison. Other creatures might have resistance or immunity to poison from non-magic sources.

Also, I would like to see more "fail by X" mechanics in poisons. In the case of Poison Spray, make it so if they fail their save by 5 or more, they are poisoned until the end of your next turn.

Agreed on both points. I think ‘fail by x’ works better than applying condition based on your damage roll.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Agreed on both points. I think ‘fail by x’ works better than applying condition based on your damage roll.

I got a lot of good use out of Drow Poison thanks to its fail by X clause so it might have colored my perception of that to be a pretty good idea.

[anthon]

the status effect changes.

when a poison effect is no different from a punch or sword, it lacks the intimate fear that poison can have.

the unknown lingering effect, a mobility status effect, a lost attribute point,

or possible DoT damage.

poison evokes fear because you don't really know which poison hit you and instead of a cure spell, you want the target to feel they need a remove poison spell, kind of like remove curse treats curses.


Even if a spell only did DoT 1 hp/minute for 10 minutes, with a saving throw to see if the poison continues every 10 minutes, it's enough to put fear into the target.

Structurally, poison is a psychological attack. Its a potential Debuff or Deadly.

The increments themselves, like a -2, or half movement, or whatever, these aren't as important as the fear of the unknown.