What would make a Poison cantrip worth it?

[HPisBS]

Poison spray- make it a 10 ft cone aoe.

Infestation- change damage to half poison and half piercing. Change to 2d4 damage.

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So... to give a "poison" cantrip its place, I would make it something like poisoning a blade. An action to add Xd6 poison damage to your next weapon attack means it has some value in preparation for a fight, useful when you cant chose a good enemy, or waiting for disadvantage to go.

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Also, I would like to see more "fail by X" mechanics in poisons. In the case of Poison Spray, make it so if they fail their save by 5 or more, they are poisoned until the end of your next turn.

I like 'em!

For Infestation, maybe also separate the d4(s) of poison and d4(s) of piercing into separate rolls. ("On a failed save, the creature takes _d4 piercing damage, then it takes _d4 poison damage.") That way, it'd have the added benefit of forcing casters to make 2 concentration saves. That alone would give it a decent niche.

Now... should some kind of Poison Coating cantrip require concentration? That would cut its appeal right back down, even if it's usable on an arrow. An Assassin Rogue or Mercy Monk might want it as a Magic Initiate pick, but few others would care for it. It'd probably be better to just make it be used as part of the attack, like with BB / GFB.

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poison evokes fear because you don't really know which poison hit you and instead of a cure spell, you want the target to feel they need a remove poison spell, kind of like remove curse treats curses.


Even if a spell only did DoT 1 hp/minute for 10 minutes, with a saving throw to see if the poison continues every 10 minutes, it's enough to put fear into the target.

Structurally, poison is a psychological attack. Its a potential Debuff or Deadly.

The increments themselves, like a -2, or half movement, or whatever, these aren't as important as the fear of the unknown.

I'll also second this sentiment.

It's always bugged me that poison damage was just another one-and-done hit of flavored damage. I know they were going for simplicity with 5e, but poison should be a DoT! (Or at least have some kind of status effect.)

If your poison spells / cantrips did, say, 4d12 damage when cast, then 1/2 of that roll (rounded down) at the start of the target's next turn upon another failed save, then 1/2 of that damage next time, and so on, then poison would be an interesting and fearsome thing!

Something like that would even be enough to counterbalance the immense number of creatures with poison immunity.

[MaxWilson]

Right now, we have two poison-based cantrips: Poison Spray (d12, 10ft, Con save) and Infestation (d6, 30ft, Con save, crappy rider). I don't think I even have to say that both are in a level of terrible on par with True Strike.

So, what would it take for a Poison damage cantrip to be worth it?

Huh? Poison Spray is already a decent druid cantrip--it's just that others are better and you don't get to pick many--whereas True Strike is so bad that even if you bothered to learn it you'd still almost never cast it.

(1) Poison Spray would be worth casting whenever someone else has the enemy pinned in place via opportunity attacks, or you are faster than the enemy and able to stay out of melee range after casting it, as long as the enemy isn't immune to poison.

(2) True Strike on the other hand is hedged in by so many layers of constraints that every time you think of something you want to use it for ("negating ranged disadvantage!", "EK War Magic!", "Landing expensive spells like Plane Shift!") it turns out to be useless for that, too, or at least more expensive than alternatives like Help.

[Aimeryan]

the status effect changes.

when a poison effect is no different from a punch or sword, it lacks the intimate fear that poison can have.

the unknown lingering effect, a mobility status effect, a lost attribute point,

or possible DoT damage.

poison evokes fear because you don't really know which poison hit you and instead of a cure spell, you want the target to feel they need a remove poison spell, kind of like remove curse treats curses.


Even if a spell only did DoT 1 hp/minute for 10 minutes, with a saving throw to see if the poison continues every 10 minutes, it's enough to put fear into the target.

Structurally, poison is a psychological attack. Its a potential Debuff or Deadly.

The increments themselves, like a -2, or half movement, or whatever, these aren't as important as the fear of the unknown.

While I like this as a DM spell, it would be fairly poor as a player spell; few enemies have any existence outside of the players short-lived encounter with them. Why would the players care about how some generic minion (who escaped) feels about this long duration poison? How would they even know? In a creature hunt (like a dragon or a beholder) the players might care about such things with that particular creature, but only if multiple encounters are to be expected.

As a DM spell, it doesn't need to be a cantrip - unexhaustible resources for enemies are rarely important. It could be a level 1 spell. It could be a level 5 spell. It wouldn't really matter as long as it was balanced. Limiting the spell with such a long duration effect to a cantrip would just mean the effect would be really minor (or be way overpowered for the spell level, even if it was really just a DM spell).

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My take, I agree with the 10ft cone; it would have a niche then, even if that niche was quite uncommon (multiple enemies in a 10ft cone, not immune to poison, safe enough to get close, not worth using a spell slot on). Would it be taken in a limit cantrip setup? Maybe.

If you wanted to make it particularly unique; 10ft cone, d4 damage at the start of an affected target's turn until a Con save is made, repeat applications stack damage (all are removed on save). Scales on d4 cantrip progression.

[Kane0]

Poison Spray
Conjuration Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (10-foot cone)
Components: V S
Duration: Instantaneous
Classes: Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard
A puff of noxious gas projects outwards from your hands. Each creature in a 10-foot cone must make a Constitution saving throw or take 1d12 Poison damage. A creature that fails its saving throw by 5 or more is also Poisoned until the end of your ned turn.
This spell's damage increases by 1d12 when you reach 5th Level (2d12), 11th level (3d12), and 17th level (4d12).

[mistajames]

The unfortunate reality is, any short ranged spell needs to have some pretty serious upsides to be worth casting. Most casters want to be far away from the front lines due to the Concentration mechanic. Doing a scaling 1d12 doesn't cut it. If we throw in the Poisoned condition and a 10' cone, that may be worth taking for some builds.

[heavyfuel]

If we throw in the Poisoned condition and a 10' cone, that may be worth taking for some builds.

That's pretty much what Kane0 did on the post right above your Other people have also suggested something like that.

While I think Kane0's version of Poison spray is pretty good, but I'd also want something more ranged-oriented.

If we are to simply change existing cantrips, I like the suggestion of making Infestation deal half (magical) piercing, half poison damage. 60ft range and 1d6 damage of each type per Tier. I think that alone would make it worth it. No need for Poisoned condition or that weird forced-movement rider