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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    I get the joke - I'm just pointing out that "carnivores don't eat bone" is not 100% accurate, just like "vegetarians don't eat wood" is - and that there are a couple of exceptions.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-03-07 at 11:21 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I get the joke - I'm just pointing out that "carnivores don't eat bone" is not 100% accurate, just like "vegetarians don't eat wood" is - and that there are a couple of exceptions.
    Herbivorous/omnivorous livestock and planties are also often fed bones (or, at any rate, stuff that used to be bones). It's healthy, nutritious and nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    According to the incipit, I tend to think that the bad news are for Rich Burlew.
    Relax, he's earned his place on the far end of the list.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-03-07 at 12:18 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I truly not sure what you think you are attempting to communicate here.
    Hyenas are lawful good because they travel in packs and don’t waste food.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Herbivorous/omnivorous livestock and planties are also often fed bones (or, at any rate, stuff that used to be bones). It's healthy, nutritious and nice.
    Nutritious for sure.
    Healthy, as long as we don't discover a bone version of the mad-cow disease.
    Nice, whelp, I don't think so. I wouldn't call nice someone who hides in my food the powder of the bones of someone.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    I wouldn't call nice someone who hides in my food the powder of the bones of someone.
    I am so glad that you chose this not-at-all specious comparison! Even when we tell a plant, in plain English, that it’s nutrients are bone meal of “someone”, the plant will eat it anyhow!

    This proving that plants are chaotic evil.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Nice, whelp, I don't think so. I wouldn't call nice someone who hides in my food the powder of the bones of someone.
    Feh. Keep your weird human sensibilities out of this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I am so glad that you chose this not-at-all specious comparison! Even when we tell a plant, in plain English, that it’s nutrients are bone meal of “someone”, the plant will eat it anyhow!

    This proving that plants are chaotic evil.
    [Goes into angry little flower mode.] So what? Planties should just let all those sweet nutrients go to waste? If that bothers you folks, stop burying your kind in the ground!
    Also, few planties kill for their food, and they don't grind up anyone for it either. People on the other hand kill planties on a regular basis and grind them down for food. Now, who's the Chaotic Evil party here? (HInt: it's you.)

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Also, few planties kill for their food
    Spoiler: Jurassic Park novel
    Show
    Beyond a fence, they came to the swimming pool, which spilled over into a series of waterfalls and smaller rocky pools. The area was planted with huge ferns. “Isn’t this extraordinary?” Ed Regis said. “Especially on a misty day, these plants really contribute to the prehistoric atmosphere. These are authentic Jurassic ferns, of course.”

    Ellie paused to look more closely at the ferns. Yes, it was just as he said: Serenna veriformans, a plant found abundantly in fossils more than two hundred million years old, now common only in the wetlands of Brazil and Colombia. But whoever had decided to place this particular fern at poolside obviously didn’t know that the spores of veriformans contained a deadly beta-carboline alkaloid. Even touching the attractive green fronds could make you sick, and if a child were to take a mouthful, he would almost certainly die—the toxin was fifty times more poisonous than oleander. People were so naive about plants, Ellie thought. They just chose plants for appearance, as they would choose a picture for the wall. It never occurred to them that plants were actually living things, busily performing all the living functions of respiration, ingestion, excretion, reproduction—and defense.

    People were so naive about plants, Ellie thought. They just chose plants for appearance, as they would choose a picture for the wall. It never occurred to them that plants were actually living things, busily performing all the living functions of respiration, ingestion, excretion, reproduction and defense. But Ellie knew that, in the earth's history, plants had evolved as competitively as animals, and in some ways more fiercely. The poison in Serenna veriformans was a minor example of the elaborate chemical arsenal of weapons that plants had evolved. There were terpenes, which plants spread to poison the soil around them and inhibit competitors; alkaloids, which made them unpalatable to insects and predators (and children); and pheromones, used for communication. When a Douglas fir tree was attacked by beetles, it produced an anti-feedant chemical—and so did other Douglas firs in distant parts of the forest. It happened in response to a warning alleochemical secreted by the trees that were under attack.

    People who imagined that life on earth consisted of animals moving against a green background seriously misunderstood what they were seeing. That green background was busily alive. Plants grew, moved, twisted, and turned, fighting for the sun; and they interacted continuously with animals-discouraging some with bark and thorns; poisoning others, and feeding still others to advance their own reproduction, to spread their pollen and seeds. It was a complex, dynamic process which she never ceased to find fascinating. And which she knew most people simply didn't understand.

    But if planting deadly ferns at poolside was any indication, then it was clear that the designers of Jurassic Park had not been as careful as they should have been.

    You can't fool me with your pro-plant propaganda. Nature red in tooth and claw is not solely limited to a single kingdom. Plants will gladly shed another's chlorophyll if necessary. David Attenborough talks not infrequently about the intense levels of competition in the rainforests when one tree dies - numerous other plants must battle it out for the precious spot of sunlight newly opened. I not not go out of my way to demonize plants, but neither do I defend their way of life, surviving at the expense of others if need be. Like all natural life.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Vegetarians are a special kind of Evil. We should eat them.
    Do you know how many cereals are killed to feed the food of the non-vegetarians? What do you have to say to the families of those uncounted trillions?
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Spoiler: Jurassic Park novel
    Show
    Beyond a fence, they came to the swimming pool, which spilled over into a series of waterfalls and smaller rocky pools. The area was planted with huge ferns. “Isn’t this extraordinary?” Ed Regis said. “Especially on a misty day, these plants really contribute to the prehistoric atmosphere. These are authentic Jurassic ferns, of course.”

    Ellie paused to look more closely at the ferns. Yes, it was just as he said: Serenna veriformans, a plant found abundantly in fossils more than two hundred million years old, now common only in the wetlands of Brazil and Colombia. But whoever had decided to place this particular fern at poolside obviously didn’t know that the spores of veriformans contained a deadly beta-carboline alkaloid. Even touching the attractive green fronds could make you sick, and if a child were to take a mouthful, he would almost certainly die—the toxin was fifty times more poisonous than oleander. People were so naive about plants, Ellie thought. They just chose plants for appearance, as they would choose a picture for the wall. It never occurred to them that plants were actually living things, busily performing all the living functions of respiration, ingestion, excretion, reproduction—and defense.

    People were so naive about plants, Ellie thought. They just chose plants for appearance, as they would choose a picture for the wall. It never occurred to them that plants were actually living things, busily performing all the living functions of respiration, ingestion, excretion, reproduction and defense. But Ellie knew that, in the earth's history, plants had evolved as competitively as animals, and in some ways more fiercely. The poison in Serenna veriformans was a minor example of the elaborate chemical arsenal of weapons that plants had evolved. There were terpenes, which plants spread to poison the soil around them and inhibit competitors; alkaloids, which made them unpalatable to insects and predators (and children); and pheromones, used for communication. When a Douglas fir tree was attacked by beetles, it produced an anti-feedant chemical—and so did other Douglas firs in distant parts of the forest. It happened in response to a warning alleochemical secreted by the trees that were under attack.

    People who imagined that life on earth consisted of animals moving against a green background seriously misunderstood what they were seeing. That green background was busily alive. Plants grew, moved, twisted, and turned, fighting for the sun; and they interacted continuously with animals-discouraging some with bark and thorns; poisoning others, and feeding still others to advance their own reproduction, to spread their pollen and seeds. It was a complex, dynamic process which she never ceased to find fascinating. And which she knew most people simply didn't understand.

    But if planting deadly ferns at poolside was any indication, then it was clear that the designers of Jurassic Park had not been as careful as they should have been.

    You can't fool me with your pro-plant propaganda. (I appreciate the excerpt emphasizing how plants are living creatures (rather than dumb „objects”) too, minding their own business, nevertheless.)
    One must be careful not to dismiss the Truth as propaganda all too easily.

    Nature red in tooth and claw is not solely limited to a single kingdom. Plants will gladly shed another's chlorophyll if necessary. David Attenborough talks not infrequently about the intense levels of competition in the rainforests when one tree dies - numerous other plants must battle it out for the precious spot of sunlight newly opened. I not not go out of my way to demonize plants, but neither do I defend their way of life, surviving at the expense of others if need be. Like all natural life.
    You are welcome to become poisonous and grow as many thorns as you see fit to prevent predation. I wouldn't hold that against anyone. As for surviving at the expense of others, plants might resort to that if need be, but there are very few animals that don't do it 24/7. There could be plant life without animals (many plants can pollinate themselves and many have mechanisms to ensure that their seeds can transport themselves), animals however need plants (and other animals) to survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Do you know how many cereals are killed to feed the food of the non-vegetarians? What do you have to say to the families of those uncounted trillions?
    KILL ALL HUMANS!

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    [QUOTE=Metastachydium;24959046]
    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    You are welcome to become poisonous and grow as many thorns as you see fit to prevent predation. I wouldn't hold that against anyone. As for surviving at the expense of others, plants might resort to that if need be, but there are very few animals that don't do it 24/7. There could be plant life without animals (many plants can pollinate themselves and many have mechanisms to ensure that their seeds can transport themselves), animals however need plants (and other animals) to survive.
    Plantaganda!
    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    KILL ALL HUMANS!
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    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    KILL ALL HUMANS!
    I want...
    10
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Someone has probably already brought it up that the exact same argumant has been made about people who love cats; i.e., they must be good people at heart.

    Cue the Bond villain petting his little white cat...
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Some little fishes, when fried, can be eaten with the whole fishbone (some cook them without even cutting off the head,
    I got to try some alici when I was in Italy; yummy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Hyenas are lawful good because they travel in packs and don’t waste food.
    Beasts tend to be 'alignment neutral' or as we used to say "alignment: hungry" ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Someone has probably already brought it up that the exact same argumant has been made about people who love cats; i.e., they must be good people at heart.
    Belkar.
    Cue the Bond villain petting his little white cat...
    Belkar as Bond villain: not seeing it.
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    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Considering that Serini is using these plants to manufacture poison and that the use of poison in D&D is considered a non-good act, the implications are that neither Serini or plants are Good.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Considering that Serini is using these plants to manufacture poison and that the use of poison in D&D is considered a non-good act, the implications are that neither Serini or plants are Good.
    Planties don't use poison. People harming planties by, say, eating them are the ones that use poison on themselves. Therefore, people eating planites are poison-users and as such, Evil.
    (Also, we don't know that she manufactures poison from the plants. It's a popular theory, but it was never confirmed.)

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Considering that Serini is using these plants to manufacture poison and that the use of poison in D&D is considered a non-good act, the implications are that neither Serini or plants are Good.
    I get twitchy, sometimes, when I see the missed chance for a proper neither / nor application ... if neither Serini nor the plants are good, them both being neutral (well, the plants likely being non aligned) is quite plausible.

    I'd drop Serini into Neutral alignment without much fuss if Alignment matters; and when it comes to story telling it rarely does.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-03-10 at 09:50 AM.
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    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Planties don't use poison.
    Except, of course, for all the planties that use poison.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Except, of course, for all the planties that use poison.
    Again, they just happen to be poisonous. It's a passive defense and noone asked those pesky animals to poison themselves.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Again, they just happen to be poisonous. It's a passive defense and noone asked those pesky animals to poison themselves.
    Similarly, my swinging my fist in the empty air is a passive defense and nobody asked anyone who runs into it to punch themselves. And this isn't even touching on trees with fruit that explode. Unless grenades are now passive as well.

    Anyway, good to see that one can away from "plants don't use poison", even if it's just to "its the victims fault for being poisoned".
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-03-10 at 10:53 AM.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Similarly, my swinging my fist in the empty air is a passive defense and nobody asked anyone who runs into it to punch themselves.
    Bad example. Swinging your fist is an action rather than a passive defense. This is more like sitting on a hedgehog (don't do that, it's an unnecessarily cruel thing that should never happen to a hedgehog): if you sit on a hedgehog, did the hedgehog use its spikes on you?

    And this isn't even touching on trees with fruit that explode. Unless grenades are now passive as well.

    If planties do it, it must be so.

    Anyway, good to see that one can away from "plants don't use poison", even if it's just to "its the victims fault for being poisoned".
    My position on this is unchanged. Evil plant eaters use that poison on themselves. Planties are just unwilling service providers (unless you'd wish to argue that poisonous plants want their poisonous parts to be eaten).

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Some plants release poison, not to ward off animals, but to repel, or even kill, other plants.

    https://www.permaculturenews.org/201...t-allelopathy/

    And some are positively vampiric toward other plants:

    http://gardenprofessors.com/when-pla...ck-each-other/
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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Planties don't use poison. People harming planties by, say, eating them are the ones that use poison on themselves.
    It's pretty hard for me to disagree with the statement "Plants use poison as a defense mechanism, therefore plants use poison."

    Granted, the rule that using poison is an inherently non-Good act but using a sword isn't has always struck me as a dumb one, and I don't enforce it in my games. I think a LG paladin stole some poison from an efreeti slaver in one of my games once and I saw zero alignment problems with that. Nor would I have an issue with him using that poison as a lethal weapon.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2021-03-10 at 11:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Especially when one "Always Lawful Good" outsider - the couatl, has poisonous fangs.

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Are we arguing the morality of plants, now? Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Bad example. Swinging your fist is an action rather than a passive defense. This is more like sitting on a hedgehog (don't do that, it's an unnecessarily cruel thing that should never happen to a hedgehog): if you sit on a hedgehog, did the hedgehog use its spikes on you?
    Probably yes. They can move those things you know, it's not like they are perpetually sticking out 90° from their skin.
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Some plants release poison, not to ward off animals, but to repel, or even kill, other plants.

    https://www.permaculturenews.org/201...t-allelopathy/

    And some are positively vampiric toward other plants:

    http://gardenprofessors.com/when-pla...ck-each-other/
    LIES!

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    It's pretty hard for me to disagree with the statement "Plants use poison as a defense mechanism, therefore plants use poison."
    I'd argue that „plants have poison as a defense mechanism” and „plants use poison” are not the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Are we arguing the morality of plants, now? Okay.
    I thought we were doing just that for quite a while.

    Probably yes. They can move those things you know, it's not like they are perpetually sticking out 90° from their skin.
    Fine, how about stepping on a sea urching?

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I'd argue that „plants have poison as a defense mechanism” and „plants use poison” are not the same thing.
    This is reaching a level of pedantry that, even for this forum, is kind of, um, notable, but if you think plants don't "use" poison, you are using the word "use" in a very unusual way.

    From Dictionary.com, the definition of "use":

    verb (used with object), used, us·ing.
    1. to employ for some purpose; put into service; make use of: to use a knife.
    2. to avail oneself of; apply to one's own purposes: to use the facilities.
    3. to expend or consume in use: We have used the money provided.
    4. to treat or behave toward: He did not use his employees with much consideration.

    Plants employ poison for a purpose, availing themselves of it, applying it to the purpose of staying alive. This process expends or consumes some of the poison they store in their bodies. This is, in fact, how many of them treat or behave toward creatures that attempt to eat or damage them (or sometimes just come into contact with them, as many unfortunate souls have discovered after running afoul of poison ivy).

    There's nothing morally wrong with any of this, but it most definitely constitutes the use of poison.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    This is reaching a level of pedantry that, even for this forum, is kind of, um, notable,
    Why, thank you! Achieving something in life always feels good.

    but if you think plants don't "use" poison, you are using the word "use" in a very unusual way.

    From Dictionary.com, the definition of "use":

    verb (used with object), used, us·ing.
    1. to employ for some purpose; put into service; make use of: to use a knife.
    2. to avail oneself of; apply to one's own purposes: to use the facilities.
    3. to expend or consume in use: We have used the money provided.
    4. to treat or behave toward: He did not use his employees with much consideration.

    Plants employ poison for a purpose, availing themselves of it, applying it to the purpose of staying alive. This process expends or consumes some of the poison they store in their bodies. This is, in fact, how many of them treat or behave toward creatures that attempt to eat or damage them (or sometimes just come into contact with them, as many unfortunate souls have discovered after running afoul of poison ivy).
    I beg to disagree: I believe use implies active participation in the process the verb describes, whereas when a poisonous plant is consumed or touched, the activity is carried out by the entity that consumes or touches the plant. That said, if you do indeed think that

    There's nothing morally wrong with any of this
    ,
    that's more than enough for me in and on itself, so I will not continue to press the issue.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Serini is definitely Good because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Why, thank you! Achieving something in life always feels good.



    I beg to disagree: I believe use implies active participation in the process the verb describes, whereas when a poisonous plant is consumed or touched, the activity is carried out by the entity that consumes or touches the plant. That said, if you do indeed think that

    ,
    that's more than enough for me in and on itself, so I will not continue to press the issue.
    Isn't active use the difference between poison and venom? Natural life poisons will always be passive.
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